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FURIOUS BUSH DEMANDS TO SEE ALL PRISONER ABUSE PHOTOS, VIDEOS
Drudge ^ | 5/9/04 | Matt Drudge

Posted on 05/09/2004 6:44:14 PM PDT by demkicker

A furious President Bush has demanded to see all photos and videos showing abuse of Iraq detainees, a senior White House source said late Sunday.

"The president was blindsided by the first TV images, he will not be blindsided again," the source, who demanded anonymity, explained to the DRUDGE REPORT.

The president has instructed Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to present him with him all known images that could further deepen the crises.

Monday editions of the NEW YORKER feature photos of a dog attacking a naked Iraqi detainee at Abu Ghraib prison.

President Bush was aware of the photo, the top source claims.

The White House is preparing for more fallout, and leaks from lawmakers.

The Pentagon is considering the possibility of showing the unseen material to members of Congress.

"It's clear the moment the evidence is sent to the Congress, we will see a new feeding frenzy in the media."


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 8x10glossy; bush43; hillaryknew; iraqipow
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To: GB
So, because this is a political world, then anything goes including the defense of the indefensible?

Where have I defended the indefensible.

All I did was point out the fact that this has been investigated since January and also the facts that hackworth was behind the release of the photos when he went to CBS who statrted the smear campaign against all troops by the actions of a very few.

Look you can put your head in the sand that this isn't a concerted political effort by the liberal media and the demos to smear the President and the military.

Just don't get mad when someone points it out to you.

301 posted on 05/10/2004 7:48:57 AM PDT by Dane
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To: GB
Again, screw the Dems, screw the libs and screw the media (I choked a little on that, because I work in the media). They're going to do what they do and nothing is going to change it and nothing can change it.

Again don't get mad if I criticize your employer(the media)over their tactics in trying to smear the military and the President.

Freedon of speech is a two way steet not the one way expressway the media thinks they own.

302 posted on 05/10/2004 7:51:53 AM PDT by Dane
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To: XEHRpa
"When Rummy's testimony the other day revealed that Hillary knew about the photos well before Rummy"

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you are confusing the leaking of the Tuguba report with the release of the photos to 60 Minutes. Here is what Rummy said:

"You say the report was well known. I don't know how you know that. All I know is when it made the public, when somebody took a secret document out of prosecutorial channels and released it to the press, I do not believe it was yet anywhere in the Pentagon. Certainly, I had not been given it or seen it."
303 posted on 05/10/2004 7:56:06 AM PDT by ironman
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To: GB
As far as Lynndie England's lawyers, wouldn't be the first time that hot-shot lawyers took on something like this pro bono thinking they might get something out of it like publicity, etc

Their expenses and fees will be covered by some outside group, IMO.

304 posted on 05/10/2004 7:57:39 AM PDT by Dane
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To: Jim_Curtis
"Is it just me that senses that it looks like a demonic-rat behind this crap?"

It's not just you. The editor of "The Mirror" (that published the purportedly fake British abuse pictures) has called the U.S. "the world's leading rogue state." -- this is just one illustration, but there's no doubt where the press is coming from, either here or abroad.

And the brother-in-law of Ms. England (aka "torture-chick") is quoted as being angry with Bush because: "He doesn't know what these guys are going through... How can you make decisions for our military unless you've served yourself?""

I smell Rat blood.

OK. Maybe it is too far-out to think of this as a vast left wing conspiracy... but, in fact, I think it's quite possible that RATS are responsible for all of this all along the line - from the abuse, to the photos, to the media, to the politicians and their "hearings."

Conspiracy theories aside, there's something vaguely beyond reason about all of this. Even granting that a bunch of yahoos would be stupid enough to mistreat the prisoners, I just can't believe that the same yahoos would allow themselves to be photographed doing this without some underlying reason. One or two morons presuming they wouldn't get caught is one thing - but ALL of those people? Didn't ONE of them think "Gee, my ass is in a sling if anyone ever sees these pictures... um, maybe not a good idea, huh?" Could they really be collectively THAT stupid?

And the "Huh?" factor goes down the line, as well. Anyone else out there hear Rumsfeld say at the hearings that he hadn't seen the pictures until 7:30 the previous night? What? Does he mean the pictures the rest of the planet had been seeing for the past 2 weeks? Doesn't Don Rumsfeld watch TV? Gee, even Hillary got to see the pictures...

Another question I had was, if Ms. England says: "I was commanded to do this" didn't anyone bother to ask her: "Oh? WHO COMMANDED YOU?" and why isn't this information being made public? Was someone accused and denied it? And even if someone simply ordered them to "soften up" the prisoners, wouldn't they have been responsible to follow-up and see exactly how (or if) those orders were being followed... and if the abuse was evident, why wasn't it dealt with THEN? Severely and immediately? Is the military really that moribund?
305 posted on 05/10/2004 8:23:42 AM PDT by Pravious
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To: Pravious
Conspiracy theories aside, there's something vaguely beyond reason about all of this. Even granting that a bunch of yahoos would be stupid enough to mistreat the prisoners, I just can't believe that the same yahoos would allow themselves to be photographed doing this without some underlying reason. One or two morons presuming they wouldn't get caught is one thing - but ALL of those people? Didn't ONE of them think "Gee, my ass is in a sling if anyone ever sees these pictures... um, maybe not a good idea, huh?" Could they really be collectively THAT stupid?

How could this happen?

1. The ones photographed, as you put it, are "yahoos" and don't have any better sense.

2. There was an institution-wide attitude that this kind of treatment would be condoned, and therefore, there was no reason to hide it from their cameras.

If the latter reason is true, then this is why I'm OK with all this being aired out in the open. Maybe not the new photos and videos, but the media blitz that has happened thus far was needed to purge the obvious negligence somewhere in the existing command structure.

306 posted on 05/10/2004 8:31:46 AM PDT by MaxPlus305
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To: FreeReign
If you'll notice there are two posters listed there.
I was advising you that I gave the wrong link earlier and was giving the correct one in that reply.
The rest goes to the other poster.
307 posted on 05/10/2004 9:47:15 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: sinkspur
Well, you've been to the thread and there is a high probability that you've seen replies 249/251/252.
Have you nothing but silence?
308 posted on 05/10/2004 9:49:47 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: Southack
"I'm very suspicious that it is a gay porn ring; not completely convinced, but almost."

Rush Limbaugh just touched on your suspicions!!!

309 posted on 05/10/2004 11:16:38 AM PDT by SierraWasp (Two... Four... Six... Eight... We don't wanna mitigate!!! GovernMental EnvironMentals are insatiable)
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To: NittanyLion
Do you see President Bush taking that course of action? How about Sec. Rumsfeld? Gen. Myers? No, they're accepting responsibility/accountability. That's what strong leaders do - those who are attempting to use this to further their agenda will ultimately hurt their cause, and are the worst kind of political hacks.

Well said.

310 posted on 05/10/2004 11:21:18 AM PDT by k2blader (Some folks should worry less about how conservatives vote and more about how to advance conservatism)
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To: sinkspur
"Tell me how a naked man, with his hands tied behind his back, acts dangerously. I'm anxious to hear this."

First of all, I don't condone the sexual perversion I saw in the photos, I detest it. But it is a far cry from an actual "atrocity", as the anti-war, anti-Bush gang are trying so hard to label it.

But frankly, it doesn't take much imagination to conclude that this prisoner's hands were tied behind his back for a good reason. Either you have a very small mind or you, like the agenda-driven democrats, pacifists and other weenies, are using these time frame shots to paint a whole story.

When I see a Fedayeen Saddam thug, who was trained by Qusai Hussein from age 12 to torture, intimidate, brutalize and murder his own people, I see the rope around his hands and the dog near him for a very good purpose. God only knows what these ruthless barbarians have done, are capable of doing, or have even tried to do at some point before the photo was snapped.

Too many people seem to conveniently forget that these POWs are mostly highly trained, elite Republican Guard troops, or Fedayeen Saddam assassins, or just plain maniacal insurgents who would tear your eyes out in the name of "Allah" if given the chance. Our MPs have to show these "people" that they are in complete control. How'd YOU like to take a little stroll around this prison camp all by yourself, without the complete control that is being exercised by the MPs?

311 posted on 05/10/2004 11:30:44 AM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: NittanyLion
"I would suggest that this makes you look as though you're attempting to turn this episode into a chance to further a political agenda re: gays out of the military. While that may be a fair debate, in this context you will harm the cause you wish to further. JMHO."

What an odd thing to conclude. I'm all for gays being in our military (though I have a problem with "don't ask, don't tell"). Many of our Arabic interpreters in Iraq and Afghanistan are gay, for instance, and quite frankly it would hurt our war on terror to drum them out of the military.

On the other hand, I really can't see any other reasonable, viable conclusion that explains why 6 men and 2 women were taking *thousands* of all-male nude pictures of human pyramids, parading around nude men on dog leashes, and *videoing* multiple homosexual rapes of young male prisoners.

I mean, that's some pretty serious felonious behavior. What would #1 "motivate" such people and #2 let such people think that word of their crimes wouldn't eventually leak out?

...And the only obvious answer that I see is that they were part of a sworn-to-secrecy gay porn ring in that prison. Such a porn ring explains both their motivation as well as their naive idea of why they wouldn't get caught.

There might be another rational explanation, of course, but as of this moment the "Gay porn prison ring" theory is the best fit for the evidence that has been made public so far.

312 posted on 05/10/2004 11:32:27 AM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: demkicker
The senior WH source just died.
313 posted on 05/10/2004 11:38:45 AM PDT by Unicorn (Two many wimps around The democrats would rather win the WH then win the war-Tom Delay)
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To: sinkspur
It does matter a whole lot if it was iraqis performing the rapes, and not our soldiers. the photographer should be punished, no doubt. but the chain of command cannot be monitoring these iraqi guards 24x7, an incident of rape may be something that requires 10 minutes in a room out of sight (except from the camera man, who I said should be rolled over), you can't monitor everyone all the time, even though they are under your "command". That's like saying the police commissioner is responsible for every action of every police officer on the street, everywhere, all the time. its just not practical.
314 posted on 05/10/2004 11:41:16 AM PDT by oceanview
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To: sinkspur
"Did you see the pictures? He's shackled. And naked. What's he threatening the guard with? His penis? My wife is sometimes uncooperative with me, but I don't turn dogs loose on her."

Man, you opened yourself bigtime with this one, LOL but since I'm a gentleman I'm going to withold my thoughts.

For the record Sinkspur, suffice to say that we do not know what occurred shortly before these time frame snapshots were taken, but we DO know that these POWs are amongst the most violent, dangerous and deadly human being who walk this earth, and many of them are utterly neurotic. We also know that Saddam emptied out ALL of his prisons and unleashed these madmen, criminals, thugs, killers and assassins just before the Coalition invasion. Hence, it is very easy to imagine what might have occurred just before the photo of the naked, shakled man was taken. Why not give the benefit of the doubt to OUR GUYS until all the facts are out?

315 posted on 05/10/2004 11:42:49 AM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: BenLurkin
I sure hope Rummy isn't resigning over this. The timing would be crappy. I trust President Bush to make the right choice on this.
316 posted on 05/10/2004 11:42:54 AM PDT by madison10
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To: Long Cut
Long Cut . . . soliciting your comments . . .

Isn't the publication and airing of the photographs by news outlets (especially pictures clearly showing prisoners' faces) a violation of the Geneva Convention?

I thought the rules and standards apply to the nation as a whole - whether its govt and military personnel, or journalists and other civilians.
317 posted on 05/10/2004 4:15:57 PM PDT by Spotsy (Bush-Cheney '04)
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To: Long Cut
The 'SYSTEM' works.

A few have disgraced the Oath they took...but we will show the world that we have nothing to hide....and we will punish those who DID abuse the prisoners in their charge.

It will NOT be covered up...

Kinda neat...the 'SYSTEM' works.

redrock

318 posted on 05/10/2004 5:04:37 PM PDT by redrock ("Better a Shack in Heaven....than a Mansion in Hell"---My Grandma)
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To: Spotsy
It's kind of a "grey legal area", at least to my reading of it.

Photos of prisoners are not to be shown for the purposes of humiliation of such prisoners (paraphrasing here), but I don't know if the media in this case can be said to be doing that.

For one, they are not State-run, and they do not publish the photos at the behest of the government for humiliation purposes.

For another, their reasons (as they will surely claim) were to expose and halt the abuse, and ensure the punishment of those responsible (we'll leave out, for now, if such publication could actually HURT the criminal case).

319 posted on 05/10/2004 5:43:54 PM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: redrock
I certainly hope so.

As sickened as I am by these atrocities and disgraces, I am equally sickened now by the Dims' blatant attempt to use them strictly for partisan purposes. ESPECIALLY when, as it now appears, they knew about it months ago. In effect, they are now coming VERY close to compromising the prosecutions.

It's to be expected of them, I suppose.

320 posted on 05/10/2004 5:46:53 PM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: Long Cut
Thanks Long Cut.

I appreciate the good info.

Spotsy :)
321 posted on 05/10/2004 5:56:26 PM PDT by Spotsy (Bush-Cheney '04)
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To: Jorge
If you think that what a few soldiers have done has stained the reputation of thousands of soldiers and the American military in general, then you are the one who's perspective is way off base sister.

Your perspective is one of a man who really hasn't ever been a man in so many ways...don't try to tell me about how soldiers in combat are seeing this. You have absolutley no background or experience in the subject to even begin to know anything about the subject.

It's too bad you get your kicks from such strange places...prisoners naked on a leash?

My perspective is correct on this topic. You forget, I am the one who was in the Persian Gulf in Army uniform...not you. You need to stick with what you know best; you're out of your league on this topic, brother...too bad you don't understand your own limitations...

322 posted on 05/10/2004 6:53:40 PM PDT by kjenerette (Jenerette for Senate - www.jenerette.com)
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To: Texas Mom
Is it a coincidence that a two-star general, Army Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, authored the secret report that set this scandal in motion? An article in the NYT today makes much ado about what a stand-up, straight shooting, truth telling guy Taguba is. Why the hard sell on his credibility? What don't we know about this guy? Does he still have an axe to grind with the Army for what he believes to be its unjust treatment of his father? Why did the scope of his report go beyond the matter he was assigned to investigate (the conduct of a military police brigade)? Why did he "use it to deliver a much broader indictment"? Why did he report on his "strong suspicion" that military officers and private contractors "were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses"? Aren't these reports supposed to deliver the FACTS, not what one thinks MIGHT have happened? What is in this man's background? Does this second-highest ranking Filipino in the U.S. Army have any ties to the Phillipines of today? You know, that country that Islamic terrorists seem to frequent? We know only what the media is spoon-feeding us about this man and, under those circumstances, question everything remains the plan of the day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/11/politics/11TAGU.html
323 posted on 05/11/2004 10:53:43 AM PDT by Ultvikefan
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To: Long Cut
Remember when Barney Frank's "lover" was running a prostitution ring from their property? What do you think was going on right in Washington DC in the Senator's quarters at that time? Anything much different than what is shown in the Iraq prison pictures, or things even more vile? Where are the photos and videos of that outrage? I'll bet someone was taking pictures.... why hasn't the media shown us?
324 posted on 05/11/2004 10:58:58 AM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: ironman
Thanks for the correction. For some reason, I thought there was context in Hillary's remarks to the other, but perhaps I just had my Clinton blinders on.
325 posted on 05/11/2004 6:59:31 PM PDT by XEHRpa
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To: kjenerette
Your perspective is one of a man who really hasn't ever been a man in so many ways...

What is THIS supposed to mean? Who made you judge of who is or isn't a man? And how would you know what I have or haven't been?
Why are you resorting to personal insults instead of addressing what I posted?

I could easily post on FR that you have NEVER been a real woman in so many ways simply because you disagree with me but I wouldn't think of stooping to such things.

In any case I think you need explain, apologize or attempt to rectify what you posted.

I'm giving you this opportunity. OK?

don't try to tell me about how soldiers in combat are seeing this. You have absolutley no background or experience in the subject to even begin to know anything about the subject.

Huh? Where did I try to tell you "how soldiers in combat are seeing this"?

Show me. You can't do it.
The fact is I never made such an argument anywhere in my posts to you.

It's too bad you get your kicks from such strange places...prisoners naked on a leash?

This is amazing. We just had a video put out today of some Iraqi kooks chopping the head off a 26 year of American contractor.

But you're all uptight and shocked at a photo of a woman with a prisoner on a leash and that anybody dare to laugh at it.
Well guess what..a lot of people laughed at it including a Govt guy I work with who is a Major in the Army and just got back from combat in Iraq.

Guess you want to imply all of us who laughed are perverts?
Incredible.

My perspective is correct on this topic. You forget, I am the one who was in the Persian Gulf in Army uniform...not you. You need to stick with what you know best; you're out of your league on this topic, brother...too bad you don't understand your own limitations...

Are you trying to make me laugh on purpose or what?

You have either been unable or unwilling to address ANYTHING I actually posted to you....but have instead resorted to personal insults and sanctamonious platitudes that amount to John Kerry-like debating skills. "How DARE you disagree with ME. Do you KNOW who I AM? I served in Vietnam !!!!!!(subsitute Iraq)"

I can understand weak debating skills, that perhaps you have no answers to my challenges..but the personal insults?

What is that all about? What's going on with you?

326 posted on 05/11/2004 9:26:12 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Jorge
"...my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!"
327 posted on 05/11/2004 9:34:20 PM PDT by Hildy (...Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth. - Mark Twain)
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To: Hildy
Great quote! I consistantly defend our military against those who attempt to smear them with this prisoner abuse scandal.

I hope you weren't using this quote in a John Kerry-debate- strategy that interprets it as meaning nobody who's served in the military has the right to disagree with somebody who has. If so, it's a foolish insult to 95% of Americans who didn't serve which will get you nowhere.

328 posted on 05/11/2004 9:43:59 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Jorge
I'm hoping everyone realizes that's Jack Nicholson's speech from A FEW GOOD MEN.
329 posted on 05/11/2004 9:44:59 PM PDT by Hildy (...Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth. - Mark Twain)
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To: Hildy
I'm hoping everyone realizes that's Jack Nicholson's speech from A FEW GOOD MEN.

I just wondered what it had to do with what I posted.

Are you saying that I cannot defend our military men or speak up on their behalf because I haven't served?

330 posted on 05/11/2004 9:47:05 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Jorge
No, I just thought it was an interesting quote.
331 posted on 05/11/2004 9:51:12 PM PDT by Hildy (...Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth. - Mark Twain)
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To: kjenerette
You need to stick with what you know best; you're out of your league on this topic, brother...too bad you don't understand your own limitations...

Well, for somebody who you consider less than a man, who has no right to speak on the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal because I didn't wear the uniform like you...I'd say I just did a pretty good job of kicking butt in this debate.

You didn't ATTEMPT to refute or EVEN address any of my challenges to your posts. NOT ONE.

All you did was post personal insults and attempt to insulate yourself from criticism by parroting the John Kerry blow-hard platitudes "I served in Vietnam!(Iraq). How dare you question me?!!"

Speaking of "limitations", surely you can do better than this.

332 posted on 05/11/2004 10:01:17 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Jorge
You didn't ATTEMPT to refute or EVEN address any of my challenges to your posts. NOT ONE.

George - I find this pretty interesting. You claim she didn't respond to your arguments when what she did is take issue with your comment about 'laughing' when you saw the photos of Iraqi prisoners being abused and humiliated by some Americans. This is NOT a laughing matter in any shape or form.

Your challenges were way off the mark...listen to the testimony before the Senate and read the official reports...they back up everything she said. In particular; read Senator Lindsay Graham's questioning and statement ...

What you find humorous - most of us who have served on active duty with honor in Peace and War - find disgusting.

As you seem to consider yourself some type of excellent debater I find it strange that Katherine is the one who was in the Army in the Persian Gulf War - she is the one who is a college History instructor - she is the one who was a U.S. Congressional aide - and now she is the one who is the Republican candidate for a South Carolina Senate seat in the 2004 elections, and may be going to Iraq later this summer. At the expense of sounding rude - just what are you doing for the cause?

I share her disappointment with your sense of humor over what I consider (along with most 'real' soldiers) dishonorable conduct by some of our military. However, I don't lose track for one moment about who we are fighting - but, my honor as a soldier is not up for modification by my enemies dishonor...

I have been the target and received threats from Islamic Militants because of my public stand on this War from my writings and personnal lectures that I have given on the topic. But I don't reduce myself to have them become my teacher on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong.'

We are fighting against these 'animals' who would slaughter us if given the chance - but, we are not them...

Hope you are well...

333 posted on 05/12/2004 6:53:10 AM PDT by Van Jenerette (US Army 1967-1991 ARMY Infantry OCS Hall of Fame - Ft. Benning)
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To: Jorge
You need to understand a soldiers view of this....for your reading and education...

May 5, 2004

From the Frontlines: A Combat Soldier's View of the Iraq Prison Abuse Case

The National Center for Public Policy Research this week has posted online two letters received from a soldier, Spc. Joe Roche, who presently serving on the front lines in Iraq.

The first letter provides a glimpse of the attitude of rank-and-file combat soldiers to the news of abuse of Iraqi prisoners in Iraq.

Excerpts:

"I'm at a place right now where there are thousands of U.S. soldiers. I went to breakfast and dinner at the KBR dining hall here. It is huge, hundreds of soldiers gathered to eat. Around us are large-screen tvs, and yes, the news was mostly about the prison abuse. Everyone is so angry. I mean, angry! It is as if those soldiers hurt us more than the enemies here in Iraq have. I don't think that if that RPG last week had hit and killed us in my hummwv, there would have been any of the damage done to our cause here that those soldiers have done."

"As you know, we have done raids and captured some of the top terrorists in Baghdad over the past months. My sister has some dramatic pictures of at least one raid. In all of those, we handled the enemy w/ respect. Our big bosses always pressed us on the Geneva Convention rules before raids, and we have taken many classes on ROEs (rules of engagement) and on the proper treatment of prisoners. There are rosters w/ all our names on them for these classes because dealing w/ prisoners is major concern of our leadership. My battalion has caught car bombers, weapons' smugglers, and those laying IEDs to kill us. We've even captured in raids those who fired mortars at our base on Baghdad Island. And EVERY TIME, we treated them w/ respect and took care to give them full medical treatment, food and clothing."

"Let me recount to you a story One day [two American soldiers] were hit by an IED in a hummwv... They got the one soldier out who was badly injured, but the fire was so bad that they couldn't get his friend out. They don't know if he was alive as he burned, but they had to watch. Now, that street that this happened on was one where they had built schools, improved much infrastructure, many many projects to make it a better and safer place. ...When the IED blew, across the street were some of those very same neighborhood people cheering. They cheered as our fellow American burned and the other one was dragged out. Now, these are tankers, and they have big BIG guns, and all were ready to fire. The soldiers, all of them seeing the tragedy of the attack, and seeing the sick group cheering across the street, they all held their composure. No one fired a shot, no one did anything inappropriate. They did exactly as they were trained."

http://www.nationalcenter.org/2004_05_01_BlogArchive.html#10836356378620677 online.

The letters' author, Spc. Joe Roche, serves with the 16th Engineering Battalion of the 1st Armored Division, which is part of a quick deployment force tasked with dealing with sudden eruptions by enemy forces within Iraq. More information about Joe, other commentaries he has written, and information (including an address and suggested items) about sending care packages to soldiers fighting in Iraq can be accessed at http://www.nationalcenter.org/RochePage.html online.

The National Center for Public Policy Research is a non-partisan, conservative/free-market think-tank established in 1982 and located on Capitol Hill. It can be visited at http://www.nationalcenter.org online.

------------ take care,

Van

334 posted on 05/12/2004 10:58:28 AM PDT by Van Jenerette (US Army 1967-1991 ARMY Infantry OCS Hall of Fame - Ft. Benning)
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To: Van Jenerette
Jorge;"You didn't ATTEMPT to refute or EVEN address any of my challenges to your posts. NOT ONE."

George - I find this pretty interesting. You claim she didn't respond to your arguments when what she did is take issue with your comment about 'laughing' when you saw the photos of Iraqi prisoners being abused and humiliated by some Americans.

Read my statement above again.
I NEVER said she didn't take issue with my original post about "laughing" at the photos.
(If she didn't do so, this exchange would have never taken place to begin with.)

What she DIDN'T respond to was any of my "CHALLENGES" to her posts. All she did was resort to some really inexplicable personal attacks..and NOTHING else of substance.

This is NOT a laughing matter in any shape or form.

Really? I wonder why I don't feel bad about laughing about it then?

Your challenges were way off the mark...

Are they really? I'm still waiting for you or Kate to quote anything I've posted and show me where ANY of it is "off the mark".
You have yet to do so.

listen to the testimony before the Senate and read the official reports...they back up everything she said. In particular; read Senator Lindsay Graham's questioning and statement ...

I have always been a fan of Linsay Graham but I am really disappointed that he has joined the hand-wringing hysterics when it comes to this prisoner abuse scandal.
This is EXACTLY what our enemies want. They want the actions of a few to stain the entire war effort and undermine American resolve on the war on terrorism.

Graham's playing right into the enemy's hands.

What you find humorous - most of us who have served on active duty with honor in Peace and War - find disgusting.

Since when do you speak for most of those who have served? I have talked about this with others who have served, who have been in Iraq and Afghanistan, or were lifers in the US military and they ALL agree with me

As you seem to consider yourself some type of excellent debater I find it strange that Katherine is the one who was in the Army in the Persian Gulf War - she is the one who is a college History instructor - she is the one who was a U.S. Congressional aide - and now she is the one who is the Republican candidate for a South Carolina Senate seat in the 2004 elections, and may be going to Iraq later this summer. At the expense of sounding rude - just what are you doing for the cause?

Huh? With all due respect this just another version of the John Kerry defense "I have this degree, I have that experience, I have been in Vietnam...HOW DARE you question me!!
What a cop out. And how sad that somebody with such a great resume is unable to address simple challenges to her posts and needs to resort to personal attacks and insults instead.
Actually it's rather pathetic.

Perhaps I should respond to those who challenge me by telling them that I graduated first in my college class with a perfect 4.0 GPA.

Newsflash. Nobody is impressed with these things if you are unable to articulate a coherant response to their posts.

I share her disappointment with your sense of humor over what I consider (along with most 'real' soldiers) dishonorable conduct by some of our military.

Since when do you speak for MOST "real soldiers"? You need to lighten up.

Again, I work with Govt employees who are in the military, who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and have been lifers in the US military.
NONE of them share your "disappointment" with my sense of humor over Iraqi terrorists prisoners being put on leashes and made to bark whenever the American's whistled at them. In fact I know you and don't even believe that you haven't laughed yourself at this juvenile nonsense.

However, I don't lose track for one moment about who we are fighting - but, my honor as a soldier is not up for modification by my enemies dishonor...

Then you should agree with me that our enemies' attempts to use this prison scandal to dishoner our ENTIRE military and America's moral authority in this war is WRONG.
That has been my postition from the beginning.

And for this I am accused of being "less than a man" in many ways and some kind of pervert who likes to see naked Iraqis?
Kate owes me an apology BIG TIME.

335 posted on 05/12/2004 9:29:30 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Jorge
Again, I work with Govt employees who are in the military, who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and have been lifers in the US military. NONE of them share your "disappointment" with my sense of humor over Iraqi terrorists prisoners being put on leashes and made to bark whenever the American's whistled at them. In fact I know you and don't even believe that you haven't laughed yourself at this juvenile nonsense.

You really don't get it...I not laughing at all; and if you work with or know military people (I'd be curious about their MOS) who share your idea that the abuse of prisoners is a laughing matter; then they are clueless; and I have to ask you - what would you and your friends do to these 'soldiers' who treated these prisoners in the way they did - if you were the Chief of Staff or the CG?

Let me try one more time to have you see this from a critical perspective:

The military began this investigation last winter and began to take appropriate action long before CBS or the media knew anything about the incident. Was the military correct in it's investigation and findings that the conduct of these guards was wrong and action needed to be taken against the individuals?

If the prison abuse was wrong and disgusting long before the media 'frenzy' how could the same actions and abuse suddenly become 'humorous' and excusable afterwards?

Can bad conduct become good conduct on our part because of the media? If it can then we have no morals, and everything becomes a case for situational ethics...

336 posted on 05/13/2004 1:54:21 AM PDT by Van Jenerette (US Army 1967-1991 ARMY Infantry OCS Hall of Fame - Ft. Benning)
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To: Jorge
Now, this is kind of funny(from another post):

Everything is clear to me,now. Lyndie was having multiple sex partners. She's a "two-bagger". The prisoners were not being abused or humiliated. They were all just waiting for a turn to romp with Lyndie and the bags on their heads were just in case Lyndie's fell off. ;o) 64 posted on 05/13/2004 1:28:51 AM PDT by Free Trapper (One with courage is often a majority.) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

I even found this amusing...bye!

337 posted on 05/13/2004 2:34:40 AM PDT by Van Jenerette (US Army 1967-1991 ARMY Infantry OCS Hall of Fame - Ft. Benning)
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To: Van Jenerette
"In fact I know you and don't even believe that you haven't laughed yourself at this juvenile nonsense."

You really don't get it...I not laughing at all;

You're right I don't get it.
Because I've personally heard you laugh at things far worse than this. For example, in reference to a bunch of left wing protesters on TV you once said the police should throw a few grenades into the crowd and you laughed about it.

But me laughing about leashes put on Iraqi POWS and making them bark like dogs, or some girl posing, pretending like she's shooting the genitals of a naked Iraqi, is highly offensive to you. Even though no one was hurt or killed.
I don't get you at all.

and if you work with or know military people (I'd be curious about their MOS) who share your idea that the abuse of prisoners is a laughing matter; then they are clueless;

I think the opposite is true. One of them, a Government inspector for the military who I work with, is a Major in the Army and just returned from Iraq.

He summed it up nicely saying that what is shown in the photos is NOTHING compared to what goes on in war and all the hysteria being generated is totally blown out of proportion due to politics in an election year.

Here's some quotes that emphasize this point;

*A representative of the Iraqi National Congress when asked about the pictures that are being broadcast of mistreatment at the Abu Ghraib prison, the Iraqi noted that his countrymen have available video of torture practiced in Iraqi prisons by Saddam's torturers. They buy and sell the videos on the street. They show dogs eating prisoners alive and prisoners being put in shredders. Our guards, devotees I presume of Hustler magazine, were mere amateurs, slaves to infantile sex.*

We have Teddy Kennedy claiming the American soldiers have simply taken over Saddam's torture chambers, ignoring the fact that Saddam fed people through shredders, dropped in vats of acid, chopped off fingers and tongues etc. and filled mass graves with over 300,000 Iraqi victims.

But the REAL evil is American prison guards making Iraqi POWs wear women's underwear and engage in degrading sex acts. RIGHT!

This media and leftist hysteria over the pictures at the Abu Ghraib prison is distorted and unbalanced totally beyond comprehension.

and I have to ask you - what would you and your friends do to these 'soldiers' who treated these prisoners in the way they did - if you were the Chief of Staff or the CG?

They should get whatever's coming to them under the law.
But the idea that I can't laugh about any stupid act that happens to be illegal when nobody was actually physically harmed of killed, is just silly.

338 posted on 05/13/2004 7:32:32 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Jorge
One of them, a Government inspector for the military who I work with, is a Major in the Army and just returned from Iraq. He summed it up nicely saying that what is shown in the photos is NOTHING compared to what goes on in war and all the hysteria being generated is totally blown out of proportion due to politics in an election year.

You believe who you want, then. That Major friend of yours if full of crap and not much of an officer if he thought it was funny. Who am I to speak? Check my Military and Congressional credentials - I use my real name here on Free Republic...You really don't know me very well. We live in very different worlds.

I'm just thankful you and people like you who get a good laugh out of those 'harmless' photos are not in charge of our military or this country.

Funny, none of the people in Congress came out of yesterdays session laughing...

339 posted on 05/13/2004 7:59:32 PM PDT by Van Jenerette (US Army 1967-1991 ARMY Infantry OCS Hall of Fame - Ft. Benning)
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To: Jorge
I think we've beat this horse to death..don't you? I'm heading to bed...email me for real so I can send you some photos - your old address seems dead...

Nite...

340 posted on 05/13/2004 8:39:00 PM PDT by Van Jenerette (US Army 1967-1991 ARMY Infantry OCS Hall of Fame - Ft. Benning)
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To: Van Jenerette
You believe who you want, then. That Major friend of yours if full of crap and not much of an officer if he thought it was funny. Who am I to speak? Check my Military and Congressional credentials - I use my real name here on Free Republic...You really don't know me very well. We live in very different worlds.

I don't need to check out your "Military and Congressional credentials" I've only known you personally for 50 years as of June 2004.
I suppose other Freepers might be very impressed by your resume, but what I am looking for convincing argument as to why you disagree with me.
I know that's a lot to ask for. And it is much easier to post the John Kerry defense."I served in Vietnam! I am a hero. Who do you think you are to question me?!!"

With all due respect, this is not a convincing argument on anything.

I'm just thankful you and people like you who get a good laugh out of those 'harmless' photos are not in charge of our military or this country.

Hate to disappoint you but people like you and leftist handwringers who want to blow this entire Iraqi prison abuse scandal into a major attack on our military and undermine the reputation of America ARE NOT IN CHARGE of the military.
Like me, Rumsfeld has defended our military and pointed out how disproportionate and unfair the "outrage" over these photos is and how it is politically motivated by the leftist anti-Bush crowd.

By the way, I never said the photos were "harmless" at all.
I said that while the prisoners might have been shamed and embarrassed, they were not physically harmed or killed.

Are you distorting what I post on purpose or is that you just can't comprehend it?

Funny, none of the people in Congress came out of yesterdays session laughing...

Funny I heard more than one of them say FOX News that what they saw was no worse than what has been published already and that there were no pictures or video or Iraqis actually being tortured and murdered. UNLIKE what our enemies are showing.

We just saw a video of Iraqi monsters holding down an American contractor and sawing his head off with a knife.

But your big issue on these boards is how horrible American prison guards are for making Iraqi prisoners and terrorists wear women's underwear, leashes and engage in sexual acts. Incredible!

341 posted on 05/13/2004 9:31:32 PM PDT by Jorge
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