Proof that at least one of two (evolution, ice age) key theories is false

official school material ^ | 04/05/21 | self

[Truth666]

These are three of the dogmas which we are endoctrinated nowadays in school : #1 - origins of the current forms life forms: by evolution from previous forms #2 - appearance of Homo Sapiens (from encarta): The oldest known fossils that possess skeletal features typical of modern humans date from between 130,000 and 90,000 years ago. #3 - last ice age (from encarta): the most recent ice age, the Pleistocene Epoch, lasted from about 1.6 million years to 10,000 years before present ... when temperatures were 5° to 7° C cooler than today.

#1 and #2 are part of current evolution theory; #3 is part of current ice age theory.

There can be no doubts that no other theory has so much impact on modern society as evolution theory. In view of the signs of climate change from the last years, ice age theory is impacting society more by the day.

From these dogmas we immediately can take the following conclusion : homo sapiens has already experienced an ice age.

Now hold on to your seat : relying solely on the assumptions of both theories, there's plenty of evidence that AT LEAST one of these theories is false ! In other words : these theories are incompatible.

Let's take one piece of evidence that any high school student can understand.

Lord Howe Island - living proof

This is not just another coral reef. This is Lord Howe Island, by far the southern-most coral reef in the world. Its existance is only possible due to particular climate conditions that affect an area of the world where no other land rises even remotely near sea level. In fact there's nothing but deep ocean until Port Macquarie, on the NSW coast, 550 kms away.

This wonder of the world would be immediately destroyed, if the ocean temperature would drop just one degree Celsius. If the temperature would drop 5°C both endemic unmistakable palms (including the most popular indoor palm of the world, howea forsteriana) would also perish. So, just to take these two examples, both the coral and the howea would have had to have developed from scratch during the last 10,000 years. A claim that nobody would dare to make.

[dirtboy]

This wonder of the world would be immediately destroyed, if the ocean temperature would drop just one degree Celsius.

The reefs could easily have died, but their skeletal remains would persist, and then be re-established later from coral larvae drifting in from the north.

If the temperature would drop 5°C both endemic unmistakable palms

5 degress celsius is a pretty big drop for a small island in the middle of a moderating ocean at about 32 degrees south.

Nice attempt at a strawman, however.

[70times7]

[Creationists] are just intellectually dishonest.

I have solid empirical evidence that most evolutionists and creationists have the intellect to conclude that such "broad brush" statements are intellectually dishonest. Others don't have the intellect, or at least don't use it.

Many come to these threads because there are those who actually discuss these issues. I know I am frustrated by having to filter posts from those who would rather defend their ego than learn. Let's all do a better job of restraint (or absence) and bump up the odds of a good discussion.

[Mike Darancette]

the most recent ice age, the Pleistocene Epoch, lasted from about 1.6 million years to 10,000 years before present...

I disagree that the the ice age ended 10,000 years ago. During the last 1.6 million years there have been many periods (interglacial) where the ice retreated. Many were warmer than the current interglacial.

[Truth666]

Glad aout your comment. I was hoping that there would be a palm and climate expert to contradict this.
In fact using the climate data for Lord Howe station, located at sea level, they could still manage a 5°C colder climate.
The problem is that howeas can't survive on their own at the small strip of Lord Howe stretching at sea level. They don't tolerate full sun until they are adult. Their habitat is the very special rainforest on the slopes of Mt. Lidgbird and Mt. Gower (in the picture, as most of the time, under the clouds), 500 m above sea level.
And if you it is still possible to debate if there 5°C cooler temperatures would mean extinction, you should not have any doubts that a change in the rain pattern would!

[dirtboy]

Its existance is only possible due to particular climate conditions that affect an area of the world where no other land rises even remotely near sea level.

Yeah, right in the middle of a warm current. And it's so unique - I mean, we don't have any other examples of an area at higher latitudes being warmed by an ocean current. Other than Europe. Oh, yeah, and we can't forget Bermuda - and gee, Bermuda has coral reefs also.

So much for the uniqueness part of your statement.

[steplock]

Any idea what a mechanism linking earth's magnetism and climate might be?

I am not a climatologist (or whaever its called) but for a very simple illustration of the relationship of magnetism and climate....

You have seen those little devices that can stir liquids without any mechanical content? Set a beaker down and it amazingly begins to rotate into the familiar vortex form?

That is rotating magnetism at work. on a very very minuscle scale. Take the magnetic energies of our liquid metallic core (causing ocean currents and affecting air currents) - if the core fields shift, then all it affects shifts with it. The Humbolt current (of Kon Tiki fame) runs down the coast of South America all the way through the South Pacific and it's patter affects our west coast in the form of El Nino and La Nina (never could make a tilde)

Imagine the Humbolt current shifting north...North of it would become warmer - south, cooler. Like I said - simplified example. Peru could become a tropical paradise instead of the desert it is now if the current shifted south. Add to that all the other major ocean currents that are more responsible for climate than anything. The western pacific currdnts change and India would become fruitful instead of a combination of barren deserts and flooded plains. Shift that current the other direction and we would have our mid east desert a ways further to the east and Baghdad a Med paradise ?

All because the magnetic fields shifted one way or another.

I have NEVER seen a study of the effects of the polar reversal though - probably near to catastrophic for the urban populations.

[BubbaBasher]

The poles reverse polarity about every 25,000 years. I believe the earth's magnetic field blocks some of the sun's rays. If this is true, there would probably be a point halfway through the polarity shift that would have reduced protection. Just speculation, no flames please.

[dirtboy]

Whilst Lord Howe is located in cooler waters at latitude 31 south, it has a remarkable mix of tropical as well as temperate marine life. The larvae of tropical species, including corals, are swept south by the warm East Australia Current which flows past the Great Barrier Reef in Queensland before swirling out into the north Tasman sea

Well, there goes your coral theory.

[BubbaBasher]

Good explanation. I should have waited a few minutes. ;-)

[Dinsdale]

Many come to these threads because there are those who actually discuss these issues.

Just not the author of this article.

To make the claim that one or the other theory is false is intellectually dishonest. The first step in arguing against a false permise is to identify the false premise.

I've seen far to many unsupported gradious claims from the bible thumpers to give them the pass you do, but I will revise my statement in light of your criticism.

Many creationists (at least a large plurality, including the author of this article) are intellectually dishonest

Better?

[bobsatwork]

That is plenty of time to establish a coral reef and fauna . 10,000 years is plenty of time for the fauna. 500 years is plenty of time. Krakatoa (sp?) was rendered virtually lifeless by the volcanic explosion there. It is completely restored now.

[70times7]

I rest my case. Thanks for the additional help.

[dirtboy]

The problem is that howeas can't survive on their own at the small strip of Lord Howe stretching at sea level. They don't tolerate full sun until they are adult. Their habitat is the very special rainforest on the slopes of Mt. Lidgbird and Mt. Gower (in the picture, as most of the time, under the clouds), 500 m above sea level.

Really? A website on Lord Howe Island begs to differ:

http://www.lordhoweisland.info/environ/article1.html

These include four species of palm, the best known being Howea forsteriana, which forms dense lowland forests in some areas.So now both your palm and your coral theories are toast. Oh, well, back to the drawing board. Maybe you can play the Mississippi River gambit next time.

[RightWhale]

The magnetic stirrers I have seen have a plate containing the driver magnet and an encapsulated magnet that is placed in the liquid. A changing magnetic field might cause some effect in water. After all, microwave ovens can heat water. But the changes in the earth's mag field are so slow that the wavength of the photons would be lightyears. Such long wavelengths would not measurably interact with anything so small as the earth's oceans.

I like the other possibility, that earth's atmosphere generates earth's mag field, although it might be that the mag field is induced by ocean currents. The question is whether liquid phase water is better at inducing mag fields than is gas phase water.

This suggestion is necessary but not sufficient evidence that I am a crackpot scientist.

[GEC]

Ah, but what kind of swallow?...

[balrog666]

The last time I saw something this stupid posted, it was in blue.

poor liars, that are not even able to spread consistent lies.

Go to school. Read a book other than the Bible. Get a life.

[RightWhale]

I believe the earth's magnetic field blocks some of the sun's rays.

According to RightWhale's postulate of global magnetism, this may be close to the description of the actual mechanism of change.

[RightWhale]

the last ice age was about 130,000 years ago

The last Ice Age ended abruptly, more or less since it is still ending, about 12,000 years ago.

[dirtboy]

Their habitat is the very special rainforest on the slopes of Mt. Lidgbird and Mt. Gower (in the picture, as most of the time, under the clouds), 500 m above sea level.

Hmmm - Mt. Gower is 900 m high. Here's a picture:

Looks like the top 400 meters are almost vertical. Yet this is the "rain forest" you are talking about?

[Thoro]

Ah, but what kind of swallow?...

An African swallow, of course. It would need to grab the coconut by the husk, thus negating any question of weight ratios between them.

However, that does not prove whether or not it is a witch.