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Homosexuality is not biologically determined - latest research.
On Line opinion ^ | June 08, 2004 | Dr David van Gend

Posted on 06/25/2004 7:32:18 AM PDT by scripter

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To: scripter

What does biology have to do with anal sex?


51 posted on 06/25/2004 8:41:20 AM PDT by Porterville (Fight Communism, vote Republican- and piss on france)
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To: ElkGroveDan
Well they don't "choose" schizophrenia or other psychological disorders either. Mental illness comes on for many complex reasons, overt choice usually isn't one of them.

Are you saying that homosexuality is like a mental illness or is a mental illness? If so I'm not sure that I would go that far in deccribing it but I do believe it may be based on certain inherited 'traits' that may become overwhelming as a young adult matures.

Again, the article in post 14 is a good one.

52 posted on 06/25/2004 8:42:14 AM PDT by evad (What's BAD for democRATs is GOOD for America)
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To: diamond6

Who would want a used homosexual?


53 posted on 06/25/2004 8:44:28 AM PDT by Old Professer (Interests in common are commonly abused.)
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To: Porterville

Did you ever try to push a string?


54 posted on 06/25/2004 8:45:06 AM PDT by Old Professer (Interests in common are commonly abused.)
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To: TRY ONE
Example: If queerism could be determined in the womb, most Americans would consider abortion. The Lieberals would say, NO, NO you can't selectively abort all the Queers because we will end up with, well, NONE. And we can't have that. So there would be support for abortion limits!

--------------------------------------------------------

I beat Rush to that by frequently posting that theory here over two years ago. In an e-mail to him in early 2002 I predicted that it would end abortion and the dems at the same time. Not only would the gays cry extintion but they would demand protection in the womb that would fight the fems "it's only a blob with no rights' argument. If a gay blob has rights all do. If no blobs have rights then TS for the gays....think of the battle.

55 posted on 06/25/2004 8:46:03 AM PDT by wtc911 (moderate islam is the swamp where evil festers)
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To: Skooz
That isn't always a choice, per say, but it is almost certainly learned behavior

So, do you think it's entirely behavioral?

56 posted on 06/25/2004 8:46:15 AM PDT by evad (What's BAD for democRATs is GOOD for America)
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To: searchandrecovery
I grew up knowing a pair of male twins. One was kinda girlish (e.g. liked to play with dolls), the other more masculine (more interested in sports and all)

Are these twins "Identical Twins" or "Fraternal Twins"?

57 posted on 06/25/2004 8:46:55 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: scripter

Which is why being Gay is the in thing these days.


58 posted on 06/25/2004 8:46:58 AM PDT by mtbopfuyn
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To: scripter
The list continues to grow against any evidence that homosexuality is genetic.

Unless the weight of evidence strongly shifts in the opposite direction, I'll have no reason at all to support abortion rights.

59 posted on 06/25/2004 8:49:14 AM PDT by Freebird Forever (Kill an islamie for mommy)
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To: LizardQueen
I agree. And there's no way I could "unlearn" my heterosexuality, no matter how hard I tried. I'm just not into other women, never have been, and can't see how I could make myself be.

Of course, you have no way of knowing this. I doubt you've even tried (thank God) to do the kind of theraputic work that Dr. Spitzer's homosexual subjects did. Nobody said that changing orientations is easy; on the contrary it was quite difficult work.

If it's all learned then sexual preference should be alterable in both directions.

That would be the logical conclusion, yes. So what?

One is convinced he was born that way (or became that way very early on).

And that parenthetical is the key. Nobody remembers anything about their birth, certainly not their sexual orientation at the time. It is entirely possible that his orientation was determined early in his childhood, without his understanding. That would explain why it is so hard to change, in fact. And if we can identify the environmental factors that led tot that decision then we could seek to arrest it by educating parents.

60 posted on 06/25/2004 8:49:24 AM PDT by mcg1969
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To: scripter
The author equates "born that way" with "genetic." (Which is what "specific biological etiology" means.) And that is not what I'm saying.

"Genetics" isn't the only way one can be "born that way." It can be a personality trait -- a predisposition to be attracted to persons of the same sex.

If you've got more than one kid, you already know about how many personality traits are things we're born with. Many kids' personality traits are evident from the get-go. (For my daughter, her temper was even evident in utero)... ;-)

I have known enough kids who grew up to be homosexual, and known enough people with homosexual siblings, to understand that in some cases there really was an element of "always been that way." It's too bad -- it's a disorder -- but I believe they really were "born that way."

The author of this piece is trying to get us to buy off on a purely environmental model, which is not believable. In fact, it would appear to be furthering his political agenda -- which he most assuredly has.

61 posted on 06/25/2004 8:51:18 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: scripter

To Be Queer, as Folk, to be a tranny, is to be as the freak is, not normal, as compared to the standards of a civilized
World, thus the word Queer, as they call themselves.

I call them pillars of salt, or, worshippers of Baal, or citizens of the new Gomorah.

I do not want to be looking back at that picture, let alone to be one of its acceptance, in any way.

Ops4 God Bless America!


62 posted on 06/25/2004 8:52:47 AM PDT by OPS4
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To: searchandrecovery
I think there's a genetic component to gay behavior - not the only explanation - but part of the puzzle.

That's where I am with it.

63 posted on 06/25/2004 8:54:33 AM PDT by evad (What's BAD for democRATs is GOOD for America)
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To: robertpaulsen
If homosexuality were genetic, wouldn't it have died out thousands of years ago? How would true genetically-based homosexuals have procreated over the years?

I don't believe homosexuality is genetic. But if it were genetic, there are two possible explanations for how it could survive genetically.

One is "kin selection". This theory is that because homosexuals do not have their own children, they're free to make other contributions to the clan. Since everyone shares 50% of their genes with their siblings, if a homosexual helps their siblings' children survive to reproductive age, he would actually be propagating his own genes -- including his genes for homosexuality.

Another theory is that homosexuality is a peculiar occasional manifestation of another gene that normally has nothing to do with homosexuality, but which normally increases a person's chances of reproduction. There are genetic diseases that you only get if you have two copies of the defective gene, but if you have one copy of the defective gene, you actually are more likely to survive. For example, researchers believe that one copy of the gene for Tay-Sachs disease makes you more resistant to tuberculosis.

Why do I not believe homosexuality is genetic? Partly because the scientific studies asserting it's genetic haven't been replicated. Partly because a study involving identical twins indicated a 50% linkage (if you're a gay man with an identical twin brother, there's a 50% chance he's also gay) -- this shows a strong genetic component but clearly genes aren't controlling. But one big reason I don't believe in a genetic cause is that the alternative psychological theories (early sexual trauma, absent father, etc.) are more predictive of homosexuality. For example, a study showed that 75% of boys identified as sissies became gay men in adulthood. Also, I have read that youngest brothers are more likely to turn out gay.

64 posted on 06/25/2004 8:56:05 AM PDT by megatherium
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To: evad
So, do you think it's entirely behavioral?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

65 posted on 06/25/2004 9:03:39 AM PDT by Skooz (My Biography: Psalm 40:1-3)
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To: evad
So, do you think it's entirely behavioral?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

66 posted on 06/25/2004 9:03:40 AM PDT by Skooz (My Biography: Psalm 40:1-3)
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To: Old Professer

Now now.


67 posted on 06/25/2004 9:09:07 AM PDT by diamond6
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To: scripter

Well then, that would make it "scientific" that some queers are Normalphobes. And Queerisity is an unusual reaction to normal behavior and an alternate groinoistic option. If not just a simple sexual identity disorder..


68 posted on 06/25/2004 9:19:25 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: thackney
Are these twins "Identical Twins" or "Fraternal Twins"?

I would guess (after googling fraternal twin to mean "non-identical") that they were identical, but I don't know for sure. I myself could tell them apart after a year maybe. And then around age 11 or 12 one got a cheek cut (snowshoveling mishap) that pretty much ended the identical part.

Other facts of the case - I can't remember the mother or father treating them any differently. And after high school I lost touch with them - it would be intersting to see what happened, though.

69 posted on 06/25/2004 9:24:36 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Socialist America - diseased and dysfunctional.)
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To: searchandrecovery
"First, genetic mutation/problems/diseases occur all the time throughout nature. These haven't "died out" over history."

True. Genetic mutation/problems/diseases do pop up. Let's take something similar -- alcoholism. It is also questioned as to having a genetic component along with an environmental cause. Plus, you can do your same identical/fraternal twin studies.

If alcoholics did not breed, therefore, there would be even less occurrences than there are now. So, eliminating the possible genetic component completely will not stop the mutation, only reduce the occurrence.

Alcoholism, like homosexuality or pedophilia, may be "genetic" in the sense that a person, randomly, may be predisposed to that behavior. That doesn't mean that you have to drink -- one can decide to quit.

70 posted on 06/25/2004 9:37:14 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: evad
Are you saying that homosexuality is like a mental illness or is a mental illness?

Yes.

71 posted on 06/25/2004 9:40:56 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan (If you can read this, thank a teacher....and since it's in English, thank a soldier)
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To: evad

Good article. I've postulated some of that reasoning myself over the years. It really fits some of the gays I have known.


72 posted on 06/25/2004 9:49:06 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan (If you can read this, thank a teacher....and since it's in English, thank a soldier)
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To: All; scripter

And homosexuality was considered a mental illness until 1973. That's when homosexual activism was able to have it removed as a mental illness. It certainly wasn't science that lead to the change.


For documentation of homosexual activism in both the APA's, see the following replies in scripter's "Homosexual Agenda: Categorical Index of Links (Revision 1.1)" thread:

American Psychological Association: 121, 240 and 242.

American Psychiatric Association: 46, 139, 213, 232, 237, 239, 241, 243, and 246.


For documentation of homosexual activism in American Academy of Pediatrics, see reply 284

73 posted on 06/25/2004 9:50:59 AM PDT by EdReform (Support Free Republic - All donations are greatly appreciated. Thank you for your support!)
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To: Ancesthntr
While I believe that homosexuals suffer from a mental disorder, this is absolutely no reason to deny them any rights (nor is it a reason to give them special privileges).

Great post. I selected this section to quote because it hits two critical areas: The mental disorder of homosexuality and basic rights.

I've read many articles on the subject and somtimes say things that others infer as hatred toward homosexuals. It's my compassion that drives me here, not hatred.

Homosexuals suffer from a mental disorder and need help. They're also human beings that have basic rights just like the rest of us. But rights based on sexual behavior would be special rights, and rights homosexuals would lose once they became ex-homosexual.

74 posted on 06/25/2004 9:56:12 AM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: scripter

Thanks.


75 posted on 06/25/2004 9:56:41 AM PDT by cvq3842
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To: EdReform

Thanks, ER. Excellent. I've saved that post in html format so it's much easier to find and repost.


76 posted on 06/25/2004 9:59:29 AM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: evad
I think you will find the information EdReform has put together in post 73 very informative. It documents the mental disorder aspect of homosexuality over the past 31 years.
77 posted on 06/25/2004 10:04:32 AM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: ElkGroveDan; scripter

I promise you the assault on Spitzer's character and mental faculties will soon begin. They will call him senile, they will say he has become a tool of the religious right, that he's been brainwashed, or financially corrupted, or whatever.


Actually the assault began three years ago and continues today, as documented here (see the last two paragraphs in that document).

78 posted on 06/25/2004 10:06:57 AM PDT by EdReform (Support Free Republic - All donations are greatly appreciated. Thank you for your support!)
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To: robertpaulsen
Let's take something similar -- alcoholism.
Hold on while I get a beer.....ok, back.

It is also questioned as to having a genetic component along with an environmental cause.
Dad liked to drink vs. friends like to drink. Ok.

Plus, you can do your same identical/fraternal twin studies.
I gotta read up on that stuff - got any twin disease study links?

If alcoholics did not breed, therefore, there would be even less occurrences than there are now.
I think this is a bad example for you - alcohol actually encourages breeding in both males and females. I am still waiting for a class action lawsuit by unwed mothers against the makers of both Boone's Farm and MD20/20 for unwanted pregnancies. But I digress.

That doesn't mean that you have to drink -- one can decide to quit.
True. But one can't decide to either be a siamese twin or not.

In my defense, these are big huge issues that I don't completely understand from either a religious or scientific point of view - but I don't think anyone else does either.

79 posted on 06/25/2004 10:08:36 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Socialist America - diseased and dysfunctional.)
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To: *Homosexual Agenda; EdReform; scripter; GrandMoM; backhoe; Yehuda; Clint N. Suhks; saradippity; ...

Homosexuality Agenda Ping - Don't have time to read this at the minute, but it looks good. Check it out.

Let me know (not Scripter - he's very busy!!) if you want on/off this pinglist.


80 posted on 06/25/2004 10:09:46 AM PDT by little jeremiah (http://www.mikegabbard.com - a REAL conservative running for Congress from Hawaii!)
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To: scripter

I'm sure this will lead off the 6 o'clock news.


81 posted on 06/25/2004 10:09:58 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: scripter

Male homosexuality or male heterosexuality, you decide.

82 posted on 06/25/2004 10:13:55 AM PDT by bmwcyle (<a href="http://www.johnkerry.com/" target="_blank">miserable failure)
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To: searchandrecovery
"But one can't decide to either be a siamese twin or not."

Actually, instead of alcoholism, I was going to use "cleft palate" as an analogy to homosexuality. That does have a genetic component, and is a physical rather than psychological abberation, so I didn't.

83 posted on 06/25/2004 10:15:26 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: searchandrecovery
I would guess (after googling fraternal twin to mean "non-identical") that they were identical, but I don't know for sure.

I ask because Identical Twins are formed from the same egg & sperm and have IDENTICAL DNA. Any case of a homosexual identical twin with a hetrosexual twin would discredit a "gay gene" theory.

And I used google also to make sure I had the correct word.

84 posted on 06/25/2004 10:21:34 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: searchandrecovery
First, genetic mutation/problems/diseases occur all the time throughout nature. These haven't "died out" over history.

Other genetic mutation/problems/diseases aren't rooted in the rejection of heterosexual sex, which sends genes up the line.

85 posted on 06/25/2004 10:22:03 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: evad
I find that the evidence is overwhelming on both sides of the debate.

What specific points on the pro-homosexuality side do you find overwhelming?

86 posted on 06/25/2004 10:24:18 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: scripter
Hopefully now Jim Bohannon will stop lying to his small radio audience.

I used to work with three people who listened to his hit-and-miss-speculations and I saw him on c-span a few times. (so please spare me the 'why do you listen to him' or' don't listen to him' line.

Bohannon bought the bogus 'homosexuality is genetic' nonsense...hook, line and sinker. Not only did it make a fool of him, but he gets angry if someone questions it.

I doubt he ever read the psuedo-science he often referred to on his show to justify his preaching.

Jim, if you happen to see this advice, please read the original lies and reconsider. If not, please read this updated news and stop lying.

87 posted on 06/25/2004 10:25:50 AM PDT by OriginalIntent (Your beliefs shape your destiny.)
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To: evad

You need to consider the incidence of early child sexual abuse on the numbers of later self-identifying homosexuals. You will find some startling correlations.


88 posted on 06/25/2004 10:31:47 AM PDT by johnb838 (When I hear "Allahu Akhbar" it means somebody is about to die.)
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To: evad
Are you saying that homosexuality is like a mental illness or is a mental illness?

What would you call compulsive behavior that uses organs not designed, or antithetical to the use thereof, for sexual gratification, in disharmony with the fundational physical and psychological paradigm of physical reality with respect to mammals, and so doing cause damage, disease, sickness and death?

89 posted on 06/25/2004 10:33:35 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: r9etb
Yes, genetics can be, and is, a personality trait. This is documented in the article to which I keep pointing you: How Might Homosexuality Develop? Putting the Pieces Together.

That doesn't mean somebody is born with homosexual tendencies and it doen't mean there are any ties between genetics and homosexuality (behavior). I often quote the following excerpt from the above article:

What are these traits? If we could identify them precisely, many of them would turn out to be gifts rather than "problems," for example a "sensitive" disposition, a strong creative drive, a keen aesthetic sense. Some of these, such as greater sensitivity, could be related to - or even the same as - physiological traits that also cause trouble, such as a greater-than-average anxiety response to any given stimulus.

No one knows with certainty just what these heritable characteristics are; at present we only have hints. Were we free to study homosexuality properly (uninfluenced by political agendas) we would certainly soon clarify these factors - just as we are doing in less contentious areas. In any case, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the behavior "homosexuality" is itself directly inherited.

The author of this piece is trying to get us to buy off on a purely environmental model, which is not believable.

Homosexuality, the behavior, and what science tells us, is just that. The behavior itself is learned and not genetic. As stated above, some may be born with certain traits that in a politically correct culture, others will improperly encourage homosexuality (behavior). The author is stating what science supports.

That is, homosexuality (behavior) stems from purely environmental factors. I keep saying behavior for a reason. Some are more susceptible to that behavior, yes, but those traits, as the article says, are better described as gifts, just as those without these gifts have gifts of their own. You seem to want to believe that some gifts imply homosexual behavior when they do not.

Because homosexuality (behavior) is environmental or learned then we would expect it possible for homosexuals to leave (or escape) the lifestyle. And that's just what we see, and we're seeing more and more of it.

90 posted on 06/25/2004 10:37:03 AM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: thackney
And I used google also to make sure I had the correct word.

Did I mention that I have a steel plate in my head? I don't remember. Thinking about it on the couch, identical twins with one gay, one hetero not a good argument for genetic differences. Unless (weakly) unless these twins would be a great way to compare/determine a minor minor genetic difference. Aw geez, even I don't believe that. Note to self - start drinking heavily.

91 posted on 06/25/2004 10:37:13 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Socialist America - diseased and dysfunctional.)
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To: scripter
The enforcers amongst the ship's crew who accuse you of desertion, of "irrational internalised homophobia", are wrong.

Reminds me of a news story several years ago when medical science developed the cochlear implant. Some Organization for the Deaf was enraged when the parents of a deaf child had the implant inserted into their child's ear. The organization saw it as a betrayal of the child's "natural" deafness.

92 posted on 06/25/2004 10:40:19 AM PDT by NYer ("Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels.")
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To: robertpaulsen
Actually, instead of alcoholism, I was going to use "cleft palate" as an analogy to homosexuality. That does have a genetic component, and is a physical rather than psychological abberation, so I didn't.

Yes, but my brain is not constrained by the shackles of "logic".

93 posted on 06/25/2004 10:45:34 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Socialist America - diseased and dysfunctional.)
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To: William Terrell
What specific points on the pro-homosexuality side do you find overwhelming?

None. I'm neither pro nor anti homosexual except as it applies to the 'homosexual agenda'.

I think you have gotten in late on this discussion and misinterpreted something I posted.

What we're talking about here is the continued debate about homosexuality being genetic or behavioral.

94 posted on 06/25/2004 10:48:48 AM PDT by evad (What's BAD for democRATs is GOOD for America)
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To: megatherium
Partly because a study involving identical twins indicated a 50% linkage (if you're a gay man with an identical twin brother, there's a 50% chance he's also gay) -- this shows a strong genetic component but clearly genes aren't controlling.

Acually it's less than 50%. Some better studies were done - you may find this article very intersting: The Importance of Twin Studies.

95 posted on 06/25/2004 10:51:12 AM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: William Terrell
What would you call compulsive behavior that uses organs not designed, or antithetical to the use thereof, for sexual gratification, in disharmony with the fundational physical and psychological paradigm of physical reality with respect to mammals, and so doing cause damage, disease, sickness and death?

Answer: Perversion.

96 posted on 06/25/2004 10:53:52 AM PDT by evad (What's BAD for democRATs is GOOD for America)
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To: johnb838
You will find some startling correlations.

I do not doubt it in the least.

97 posted on 06/25/2004 10:55:25 AM PDT by evad (What's BAD for democRATs is GOOD for America)
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To: evad
I think you have gotten in late on this discussion and misinterpreted something I posted.

You said you found the evidence overwhelming on both sides of the debate. What did I misinterpret? Also, I'm trying to understand how arriving after the discussion has been going on for a while has something to do with the statements made during the discussion. Did you retract a statement of yours somewhere along the line, and I missed it?

98 posted on 06/25/2004 10:55:55 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: NYer
The organization saw it as a betrayal of the child's "natural" deafness.

I seem to remember something about that, and what a parallel! That is indeed what we see here, only the ramifications of some being wrong on homosexualtiy are so great they will go to great lengths to believe themselves right. They will probably wear blinders to the grave.

99 posted on 06/25/2004 10:59:50 AM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: evad
Answer: Perversion.

You don't think perversion is a mental illness? If it isn't, it can only be, therefore, mental health.

100 posted on 06/25/2004 11:00:04 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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