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End Government Recognition of Marriage
16 July 2004 | Me

Posted on 07/16/2004 8:09:37 AM PDT by Voice in your head

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"That government is best which governs least." - Thomas Paine
1 posted on 07/16/2004 8:09:38 AM PDT by Voice in your head
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To: Voice in your head
Marriage is not simply a contract between two, or however many people, people who love each other. It is the basic social building block of our civilization. For government to simply turn aside as the forces of secular hedonism destroy it would be slow motion suicide for our civilization.
2 posted on 07/16/2004 8:16:08 AM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: Voice in your head

That Oregon county announced it was not going to issue marriage licenses a couple weeks ago. Seems like we're pretty close to ending marriage as it is.

Someone needs to do a study to determine how much money will be shifted from gay couples onto other folks as a result of the extension of marriage to the gay community.


3 posted on 07/16/2004 8:16:19 AM PDT by Brilliant
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To: Voice in your head
The problem with gay marriage is not that it harms the institution of marriage. The problem is that it provides an official stamp of approval to homosexuality through government license. Those who debate this issue never mention this and are losing the debate. They don't have the guts to say that homosexuality is a filthy and evil perversion and not only shouldn't be approved by the government, but should be vigorously stamped out.

This debate is lost because the right side can't even muster the correct argument. The sanctity of marriage isn't the issue. Homosexuality is the issue.

4 posted on 07/16/2004 8:19:50 AM PDT by Batrachian
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To: Voice in your head

Stripping the primary family unit of any legal protections would guarantee the end of our society as we know it.

Look to the Democratic National Convention coming soon in Boston (or a "Gay Pride" parade) for a concrete look at the society that would rise in its place.


5 posted on 07/16/2004 8:22:05 AM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Batrachian
... homosexuality is a filthy and evil perversion and not only shouldn't be approved by the government, but should be vigorously stamped out.

I don't believe that, neither do most Americans.

6 posted on 07/16/2004 8:22:18 AM PDT by conserv13
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To: Batrachian
The problem with gay marriage is not that it harms the institution of marriage.

But actually, it would harm the institution just as the left's adoption of "No Fault" divorce has done.

7 posted on 07/16/2004 8:23:56 AM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Voice in your head
The entire gay marriage issue is to serve as a revenue stream for lawyers. Gay divorce will provide some good income and that is all.
8 posted on 07/16/2004 8:25:08 AM PDT by Camel Joe (Proud Uncle of a Fine Young Marine)
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To: Voice in your head

I prefer the traditional No Sex marriage.


9 posted on 07/16/2004 8:26:23 AM PDT by Conspiracy Guy (Kerry has a Carter Plan. Bush has a Reagan Plan. You choose which is your plan.)
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To: asmith92008

Thank you for posting that statement.


10 posted on 07/16/2004 8:27:46 AM PDT by Boxsford
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To: conserv13
"I don't believe that, neither do most Americans."

You're right. Most Americans are quite tolerant, which is why we're sinking into a morass of immorality like the Romans, and we'll wind up in the same place too. In the history books.

So if homosexuality is A-OK, then why not let them get married? That's where the "sanctity of marriage" argument breaks down.

11 posted on 07/16/2004 8:27:52 AM PDT by Batrachian
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To: conserv13
".. homosexuality is a filthy and evil perversion and not only shouldn't be approved by the government, but should be vigorously stamped out.

I don't believe that, neither do most Americans. "

I believe it.
12 posted on 07/16/2004 8:29:18 AM PDT by stompk
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To: Batrachian

I don't think that gays should be 'married'. Civil unions are okay with me, though.


13 posted on 07/16/2004 8:30:21 AM PDT by conserv13
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To: Batrachian
They don't have the guts to say that homosexuality is a filthy and evil perversion and not only shouldn't be approved by the government, but should be vigorously stamped out.

If you make that argument, you will lose the debate. Very few people agree with you on that matter.

14 posted on 07/16/2004 8:30:45 AM PDT by Modernman ("I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members" -Groucho Marx)
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To: FormerLib; Batrachian
Stripping the primary family unit of any legal protections would guarantee the end of our society as we know it.

Really, just look at where the black community has sadly ended up because of weak families and illegitimacy. State government should do everything it can reasonably do to strengthen the institution of the family. It's part of our tradition here in state government.

And yes, sodomy is a disgusting perversion that should be re-criminalized, but the argument on the family is important, too. To compare sexual perversion to normal family life--as though there were any comparison--is obscene.

15 posted on 07/16/2004 8:31:42 AM PDT by The Old Hoosier (Right makes might.)
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To: FormerLib
"But actually, it would harm the institution just as the left's adoption of "No Fault" divorce has done."

The institution of marriage is terminally ill and not long for this world. You're trying to close the barn door after the horses escaped. I'm not trying to save a dead institution. I'm trying to fight the acceptance and legal sanction of this perversion.

We're missing the boat here. Homosexuals don't really care about marriage. The level of promiscuity is incredible among them and their marriages would be an ugly farce. What they're trying to do is get official government approval of their "lifestyle".

16 posted on 07/16/2004 8:32:42 AM PDT by Batrachian
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To: Batrachian
You're right. Most Americans are quite tolerant, which is why we're sinking into a morass of immorality like the Romans, and we'll wind up in the same place too. In the history books.

Nonsense. What homosexuals do to or with each other in no way influences the morality or immorality of the American people. In any event, the Roman comparison is silly. Rome lasted for a 1000 years. If America lasts that long, we should be so lucky.

So if homosexuality is A-OK, then why not let them get married? That's where the "sanctity of marriage" argument breaks down.

I'm fairly neutral on this subject, but I have to ask: How would allowing homosexuals to marry in any way influence heterosexual marriage?

17 posted on 07/16/2004 8:34:02 AM PDT by Modernman ("I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members" -Groucho Marx)
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To: Voice in your head

If anything needs defining, it is sex itself.


18 posted on 07/16/2004 8:36:44 AM PDT by Old Professer (Interests in common are commonly abused.)
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To: Modernman
"If you make that argument, you will lose the debate. Very few people agree with you on that matter."

I understand that. I never said that I have a mainstream position on this issue. Do I have to have one? Anyway, the argument is already lost. We'll never see a Marriage Amendment and state after state is passing gay marriage. What's left to debate about?

One of the reasons we lost this fight is because we picked the wrong argument. It's not really about marriage. It's about official approval of homosexuality, but our side lacked the courage to say it, or didn't believe it.

I will say now that if society deems that homosexuality is just fine then there is no rational argument against gay marriage. That's how we lost.

19 posted on 07/16/2004 8:37:36 AM PDT by Batrachian
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To: The Old Hoosier
And yes, sodomy is a disgusting perversion that should be re-criminalized, but the argument on the family is important, too. To compare sexual perversion to normal family life--as though there were any comparison--is obscene.

This debate already occured, and the gays won. Sodomy is not just gay sex, straight people can engage in it also. You can't make sodomy illegal for gay people only, nor should you.

I know several gay couples, and guess what? Their 'family life' is surprisingly similar to that of all the straight couples I know! They wake up, make coffee, walk the dog, go to work, come home, make dinner, watch tv, do the dishes, mow the lawn, etc...

20 posted on 07/16/2004 8:38:31 AM PDT by conserv13
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To: Voice in your head

This is the position of libertarians (generally extreme secularist cultural liberals) who don't have the guts to say they want sodomite marriage.

Marriage is a contract between two people and society. A contract between two people is just in a lawyer's office. A marriage is and has always been a very expensive public ceremony surrounded by elaborate ritual. Society no longer has the power to use tradition, family, religion, or fear of ostracism to protect marriage, to protect wives and children from the vagaries of male hormones and mid life crises so it employs the state to do so.


21 posted on 07/16/2004 8:38:35 AM PDT by Sam the Sham
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To: Modernman

The same way that using an Easy-Bake oven could screw up a dinner party for fourteen guests.


22 posted on 07/16/2004 8:39:07 AM PDT by Old Professer (Interests in common are commonly abused.)
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To: Batrachian

BUMP


23 posted on 07/16/2004 8:41:09 AM PDT by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: Modernman
"How would allowing homosexuals to marry in any way influence heterosexual marriage?"

It doesn't, which is the point I keep trying to make. Marriage isn't the real issue. It's a stalking horse. Homosexuality is the issue. Once you approve of one you have to approve of the other.

As for the Romans, they lasted 1,000 years because the pace of life back then was so much slower, without modern communications or transportation. It's probably equal to 200 years of today. It's widely understood that Rome collapsed because of moral decay. Just like us.

24 posted on 07/16/2004 8:42:01 AM PDT by Batrachian
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To: Sam the Sham
Marriage is a contract between two people and society. A contract between two people is just in a lawyer's office.

These days, a marriage contract is a far weaker legal instrument than any other contract. A marriage contract can be dissolved by either party for any or no reason. No lawyer would let a business sign such a meaningless contract.

25 posted on 07/16/2004 8:42:36 AM PDT by Modernman ("I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members" -Groucho Marx)
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To: conserv13

They are still wrong, even if they did win. And I don't really care how much coffee they make, they continue to be wrong.


26 posted on 07/16/2004 8:43:15 AM PDT by The Old Hoosier (Right makes might.)
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To: Batrachian
We lost the war when we conceded the battle over the value of future generations; reproduction is no longer a conscious goal, but a vestigial instinct buried deep in our ungirded groins.
27 posted on 07/16/2004 8:44:15 AM PDT by Old Professer (Interests in common are commonly abused.)
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To: Voice in your head
I agree with you on this.

Government recognition of marriage makes no more sense than government regulation of the sacrament of baptism.

Many of the arguments for government recognition of marriage center on the need to legally protect the family from government intrusion. Do we really believe that a power hungry government will be stifled by its own regulatory institutions.

If we aren't living in a nation that dutifully respects the god given rights of each of its citizens then a government supplied contract is going to do little to help that.

28 posted on 07/16/2004 8:45:01 AM PDT by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: Batrachian
It's widely understood that Rome collapsed because of moral decay. Just like us.

That's debatable. During the last century or so of the Empire, Rome experienced a period of nearly puritanical moralism.

In any event, the morals of the average Roman (as opposed to the morals of their leaders) didn't change much throughout the span of the Empire.

29 posted on 07/16/2004 8:46:01 AM PDT by Modernman ("I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members" -Groucho Marx)
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To: Batrachian
So if homosexuality is A-OK, then why not let them get married? That's where the "sanctity of marriage" argument breaks down.

I disagree. My "secular" understanding of "sanctity of marriage" agrees (I think) with the "sacred" understand of it, but I do not share the religious view of homosexual behavior as sin per se.

Naturally, I think the wildly promiscuous sexual behavior by many gays in our country is unfortunate. Plus, I heartily condemn the refusal of the gay community to respond to HIV crisis by adopting epidemiologically prescribed procedures to identify and isolate sexual partners. And I don't disagree that these goings-on in our midst has a generally bad effect on everyone. And I don't think it is appropriate for schools to be actively preaching anything about homosexual sex.

For all this, I am excoriated as a right-wing intolerant homophobe by my own family.

I do not subscribe to some mythical equality of heterosexuality and homosexuality, especially when it comes to marriage. Neither church nor state, in my view, is under any obligation to equalize them.

However, for homosexuals themselves, love and sex are what they are: love and sex. I do not see anything sinful or inherently wrong with homosexual activity.

30 posted on 07/16/2004 8:51:40 AM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: Modernman
"But if we change the constitution -

[Little Boy] - Then we could make all sorts of crazy laws!

[Amendment] Now you're catching on!

[Little Boy] But what if they say you're not good enough to be in the constitution?

[Amendment] Then I'll crush all opposition to me!

And I'll make Ted Kennedy pay

If he fights back, I'll say that he's gay

You see?

31 posted on 07/16/2004 8:52:17 AM PDT by Batrachian
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To: conserv13
Funny how we are told the only safe thing is to abstain from smoking, which gives you maybe a 15% greater chance of getting lung cancer.

On the other hand, having sex with another man, which historically gives you a 14,000% greater chance of getting AIDS, should be practiced, but safely.

32 posted on 07/16/2004 8:52:28 AM PDT by The Old Hoosier (Right makes might.)
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To: conserv13

... homosexuality is a filthy and evil perversion

I believe that is true.


33 posted on 07/16/2004 8:53:08 AM PDT by TheDon (The Democratic Party is the party of TREASON)
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To: Voice in your head

It's Time to Privatize Marriage:

http://www.zetetics.com/mac/ifeminists/2002/0716.html

"Why is marriage declining?" — the question buzzes in the news.

I believe one reason is because marriage has become a three-way contract between two people and the government, which is regulated by the state from wedding vows to divorce decrees.

Marriage should be privatized. Let people make their own marriage contracts according to their conscience, religion and common sense. Those contracts could be registered with the state, recognized as legal and arbitrated by the courts, but the terms would be determined by those involved.

*click the link for more*


34 posted on 07/16/2004 8:56:01 AM PDT by society-by-contract
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To: Batrachian; Modernman
It does influence "heterosexual" marriage, as the Dutch experiment with gay marriage reveals.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1162445/posts

The entire agenda of gay marriage is about destroying the traditional family, NOT about gays getting "married."

35 posted on 07/16/2004 8:56:27 AM PDT by The Old Hoosier (Right makes might.)
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To: The Old Hoosier
It does influence "heterosexual" marriage, as the Dutch experiment with gay marriage reveals.

In places like the Netherlands and Scandinavia, marriage is in decline due to the pervasiveness of the socialist nanny-state which has eliminated the need for a stable two-parent family to provide for children.

36 posted on 07/16/2004 9:00:00 AM PDT by Modernman ("I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members" -Groucho Marx)
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To: avg_freeper

"If we aren't living in a nation that dutifully respects the god given rights of each of its citizens then a government supplied contract is going to do little to help that."

Tell that to the kids receiving child support from fathers whose pay is being attached for failing to provide for his kids after a divorce. The point you are trying to dismiss is the reason the gov't keeps track of who marries who. It is fundamentally different than other religious rights, in which the gov't has no interest.


37 posted on 07/16/2004 9:00:29 AM PDT by TheDon (The Democratic Party is the party of TREASON)
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To: conserv13
I don't think that gays should be 'married'. Civil unions are okay with me, though.

Just what is the difference between marriage and civil unions other than the name. For example, if Massachusetts passes an amendment that defines "marriage" as between a man and a womnan, yet constitutionalizes civil unions that are 100% equal to marriage, then what have they accomplished? What will be different?

38 posted on 07/16/2004 9:01:59 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Legislatures are so outdated. If you want real political victory, take your issue to court.)
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To: Batrachian
This debate is lost because the right side can't even muster the correct argument.

Yup. When the right side can't even muster the faithfulness to defend the 10 commandments or the use of the bible in a public school or prayer, it has turned it's back on God as much as the left. Romans 1:24 and 1:26 shows that homosexuality is the punishment for turning from God and that is what we are reaping. We deserve it as a nation.

39 posted on 07/16/2004 9:03:25 AM PDT by biblewonk (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK...AND I USE IT TOO.)
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To: Modernman
the pervasiveness of the socialist nanny-state

That's only part of it. The sociologists there are saying it has to do with gay marriage too.

40 posted on 07/16/2004 9:05:05 AM PDT by The Old Hoosier (Right makes might.)
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To: Modernman; Batrachian
"Nonsense. What homosexuals do to or with each other in no way influences the morality or immorality of the American people."

You're wrong. As homosexuals submit to their perverted, deviant behavior, they have no self-control or discipline which eventually surfaces in other aspects of their lives. Those who aren't wise look at what is done now and convince themselves there are no immediate consequences, so they think they can continue to engage in risky behavior. They don't connect their long-term destruction as a result. Then, they errantly conclude there are no negative end results to OTHER behavioral issues.

It's no wonder many are or become drug abusers, pedophiles, exhibitionists, and the list continues. It is on that premise that what they do DOES impact society - every aspect.

For "straights" to be forced to accept them as "normal" only exacerbates the problem. No one can be corrected if they're never told they're wrong or can prevent hurt when they're not told that what they're doing is harmful to both them and those around them.

Communicable diseases are found to be more rampant and much harder to contain and cure among the homosexual community. Their health care cost alone, and its impact to society is enormous when they seek treatment and dangerously caustic to society if they remain undiagnosed..

41 posted on 07/16/2004 9:05:05 AM PDT by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: society-by-contract

"Marriage should be privatized. Let people make their own marriage contracts according to their conscience, religion and common sense. Those contracts could be registered with the state, recognized as legal and arbitrated by the courts, but the terms would be determined by those involved."

For those with the money and the interest, that can be done now. Gov't recognition of marriage is a least common denominator approach to providing legal protection to those being married and any children from the marriage.


42 posted on 07/16/2004 9:05:20 AM PDT by TheDon (The Democratic Party is the party of TREASON)
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To: conserv13
I know several gay couples, and guess what? Their 'family life' is surprisingly similar to that of all the straight couples I know! They wake up, make coffee, walk the dog, go to work, come home, make dinner, watch tv, do the dishes, mow the lawn, etc...

So if a flasher has a family life simmilar to the one above, should his flashing be lawful? How about groups that do all of the above? Why legislate the term "couple" if a group of three can be a family? Especially if they like to watch tv and walk the dog together.

43 posted on 07/16/2004 9:05:34 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Legislatures are so outdated. If you want real political victory, take your issue to court.)
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To: Voice in your head

Paine was married a couple of times. His issue was with England and the Monarchy.


44 posted on 07/16/2004 9:07:40 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: Brilliant
Someone needs to do a study to determine how much money will be shifted from gay couples onto other folks as a result of the extension of marriage to the gay community.

I have been saying for many years, follow the money, always follow the money.

45 posted on 07/16/2004 9:13:31 AM PDT by Protagoras (government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." ...Ronald Reagan, 1981)
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To: stompk
".. homosexuality is a filthy and evil perversion and not only shouldn't be approved by the government, but should be vigorously stamped out.

I believe it.

Here are some others who agree with you.


46 posted on 07/16/2004 9:16:28 AM PDT by Protagoras (government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." ...Ronald Reagan, 1981)
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To: TheDon
Isn't child support based on paternity regardless of the state of marriage. But I admit there are other special situations in which a government granted marriage license might be used, like dispensing with someone's will after they die.
47 posted on 07/16/2004 9:18:21 AM PDT by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: Voice in your head

This article ASSUMES that civil law has no deterant value which IMHO is incorrect.


48 posted on 07/16/2004 9:23:15 AM PDT by ThomasMore (Pax et bonum!)
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To: Voice in your head

Karl Marx and Frederick Engels

Manifesto
of the Communist Party
1848


Abolition of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.

On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among proletarians, and in public prostitution.

The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.

Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.

But, you say, we destroy the most hallowed of relations, when we replace home education by social.

And your education! Is not that also social, and determined by the social conditions under which you educate, by the intervention direct or indirect, of society, by means of schools, etc.? The Communists have not intended the intervention of society in education; they do but seek to alter the character of that intervention, and to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class.

The bourgeois claptrap about the family and education, about the hallowed correlation of parents and child, becomes all the more disgusting, the more, by the action of Modern Industry, all the family ties among the proletarians are torn asunder, and their children transformed into simple articles of commerce and instruments of labor.

But you Communists would introduce community of women, screams the bourgeoisie in chorus.

The bourgeois sees his wife a mere instrument of production. He hears that the instruments of production are to be exploited in common, and, naturally, can come to no other conclusion that the lot of being common to all will likewise fall to the women.

He has not even a suspicion that the real point aimed at is to do away with the status of women as mere instruments of production.

For the rest, nothing is more ridiculous than the virtuous indignation of our bourgeois at the community of women which, they pretend, is to be openly and officially established by the Communists. The Communists have no need to introduce free love; it has existed almost from time immemorial.

My,my...your ideas seem to have been espoused in 1848.


49 posted on 07/16/2004 9:32:30 AM PDT by ijcr (Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ability.)
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To: asmith92008
"For government to simply turn aside as the forces of secular hedonism destroy it would be slow motion suicide for our civilization."

Government is the easiest tool for hedonists to use in destroying marriage, which is why we should get government out of the business of selling marriage certificates and, in the process, defining what a marriage is.

50 posted on 07/16/2004 9:37:05 AM PDT by Voice in your head ("The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." - Thucydides)
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