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50 Ancient Tombs Uncovered (1400BC, Crete)
The Australian ^ | 7-18-2004

Posted on 07/18/2004 1:17:56 PM PDT by blam

50 ancient tombs uncovered

From correspondents in Athens
July 18, 2004

ARCHEOLOGISTS have discovered 50 tombs dating back to the late Minoan period, around 1400 BC, and containing a number of artifacts on the Greek island of Crete, ANA news agency reported today.

The tombs were part of the once powerful ancient city of Kydonia, which was destroyed at the time but later rebuilt.

The oldest among them contained bronze weapons, jewellery and vases and are similar to the tombs of fallen soldiers of the Mycenaean type from mainland Greece, said the head of the excavations, Maria Vlazaki.

The more recent family tombs are of a more traditional Kydonia type.

Earlier excavations in the area in northwest Crete near the town of Chania had already yielded some 100 burial sites


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1450bc; 50; aegean; anatolia; ancient; archeology; calliste; caria; carian; carians; crete; emiliospedicato; etruscans; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; herodotus; hurrians; kreti; lemnos; lycian; lydian; minoan; minoans; mycenaeans; santorini; spedicato; tarshish; thera; tombs; troy; uncovered; velikovsky
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I've read that after Thera blew in 1628BC and sent tsunamis over Crete destroying the Minoan civilizations...the Mycenaens came in and 'cleaned-up'.
1 posted on 07/18/2004 1:17:58 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv

GGG Ping.


2 posted on 07/18/2004 1:18:31 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
50 ancient tombs uncovered

Each filled with registered democrats and Kerry 2004 bumper stickers.

3 posted on 07/18/2004 1:28:55 PM PDT by Boss_Jim_Gettys (I am a Republican attack dog.)
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To: SunkenCiv

ping


4 posted on 07/18/2004 1:46:40 PM PDT by solitas (I just want to hear three words from kerry: "Oh, my heart!")
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To: blam
Minoan Civilization 3000-1400BC
5 posted on 07/18/2004 1:47:36 PM PDT by NautiNurse ("I served in Viet Nam, and we have better hair"----John F'n Kerry campaign platform)
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To: Boss_Jim_Gettys

"Each filled with registered democrats and Kerry 2004 bumper stickers."

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!


6 posted on 07/18/2004 1:48:08 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: jocon307

Don't laugh. I'll lay you 10-to-1 that a bunch of these corpses vote in the 2004 election.


7 posted on 07/18/2004 2:02:27 PM PDT by Renfield (Philosophy chair at the University of Wallamalloo!!)
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To: blam

Good, maybe one of them will have a Minoan-Mycenaean dictionary in it. Or Minoan-Anything, I'm not picky.


8 posted on 07/18/2004 2:06:08 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: NautiNurse
That link informs us that Crete was overwhelmed by cataclysm around 1400 BC...isn't that the same time of the Exodus?

I've read before that the Red Sea crossing was connected with the eruption of Thera. Things that make you go hmmmmm...

9 posted on 07/18/2004 2:26:50 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up
"That link informs us that Crete was overwhelmed by cataclysm around 1400 BC...isn't that the same time of the Exodus?"

Most date the Exodus to about 1450BC. I date it to the time of the Thera eruption which was in 1628BC +-.

10 posted on 07/18/2004 3:20:53 PM PDT by blam
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To: *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; blam; FairOpinion; farmfriend; StayAt HomeMother; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; ...
Thanks Blam!
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list -- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.

11 posted on 07/18/2004 5:46:19 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: blam
I read the same thing...somewhere.

Still,this discovery should provide some interesting new info.

12 posted on 07/18/2004 5:58:21 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: blam; what's up
I've read that after Thera blew in 1628BC and sent tsunamis over Crete destroying the Minoan civilizations.
The idea of the tsunami was dreamed up decades ago. The 1628 BC date for the eruption was seized on due to some chronology problems in the Near East (ahem) and derived from proxy data from Greenland. The actual experts refuted that date by noting that the chemical signatures not only don't match Thera's. Others noted that there are a variety of other traces of eruptions much later than 1628 BC.

None of those eruption traces have been matched with Thera's. All of them are probably from Icelandic volcanoes.

The caldera at Thera is prehistoric (see the Dartmouth website on "Bronze Age Aegean", I think it's chapter 17). The island wasn't a big, unsullied circle that suddenly had its center blown out in historical times. The burial of the towns on the island doesn't even match the depth laid down by Vesuvius in 79 AD (not even close). Herodotus doesn't speak of any eruption or other disaster, but does discuss the island. The only historical reference to an eruption is from 200 BC, centuries after Herodotus (and after Plato, for those "into" the Thera-was-Atlantis equation).

13 posted on 07/18/2004 5:58:45 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: SunkenCiv
I just saw an (new) hour long documentary last week about Thera and the tsunami that destroyed the civilization on Crete. I sat and waited (baited-breath) for their date. I almost clapped when they said it happened in 1645BC.

And, Professor Mike Baillie, in his excellent book Exodus To Arthur using tree-rings, makes a compelling case for a 1628BC date for the Thera explosion. On page 58 of that book he says:"In 1987, data regarding a new acid layer at 1645+/-20 BC, in the important Dye 3 ice core from Greenland, was published. Claus Hammer and his co-workers suggested that this new date might be Santorini..."

Also, I think the ancient Egyptian dates are highly suspect.

14 posted on 07/18/2004 6:36:48 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv
"The only historical reference to an eruption is from 200 BC, centuries after Herodotus (and after Plato, for those "into" the Thera-was-Atlantis equation)."

I definately do not believe Thera/Santorini was the location of Atlantis. I'm presently looking towards SE Asia for Atlantis, 8-9,000 years ago.

15 posted on 07/18/2004 6:40:31 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Ever since reading about it in high school, Crete has always fascinated me.

Such a mysterious island and with such interesting people. I always wondered if it was the true cradle of civiliazation instead of Iraq.

16 posted on 07/18/2004 6:51:01 PM PDT by Shanda
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To: Shanda
" I always wondered if it was the true cradle of civiliazation instead of Iraq."

Neither. Look east during the Ice Age.

Lost Civilization From 7,500BC Discovered Off Indian Coast

17 posted on 07/18/2004 6:59:12 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Yes but did they have flush toilets?

That is what I call civilized.

18 posted on 07/18/2004 7:11:51 PM PDT by Shanda
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To: blam

Crete just had a 5 or 6 in the past week. Just a matter of time, it's going to go again.


19 posted on 07/18/2004 7:17:00 PM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and establish property rights)
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To: blam
Found this in a file (wonders never cease) here on my father's machine (I must have saved it once upon a time)...
Debate erupts anew:
Did Thera's explosion
doom Minoan Crete?

William J. Broad NYT
Thursday, October 23, 2003
In 1939, Spyridon Marinatos, a Greek archaeologist, proposed that the eruption wrecked Minoan culture on Thera and Crete. He envisioned the damage as done by associated earthquakes and tsunamis. While geologists found tsunamis credible, they doubted the destructive power of Thera's earthquakes, saying volcanic ones tend to be relatively mild... Despite the power of Thera, the Danish scientists' evidence raised doubts about its links to the Minoan decline. Their date for Thera's explosion, 1645 B.C., based on frozen ash in Greenland, is some 150 years earlier than the usual date. Given that the Minoan fall was usually dated to 1450 B.C., the gap between cause and effect seemed too large. Another blow landed in 1989 when scholars on Crete found, above a Thera ash layer, a house that had been substantially rebuilt in the Minoan style. It suggested at least partial cultural survival. By 1996, experts like Jeremy Rutter, head of classics at Dartmouth, judged the chronological gap too extreme for any linkage. "No direct correlation can be established" between the volcano and the Minoan decline, he concluded.
Re: When did Thera Erupt?
by Peter James
The truth of the matter is quite simple. There was once only one sulphur spike great enough to match Thera because budgetary restraints on the ice core work meant that such peaks had not been systematically looked for. Second millennium ice cores have now been searched more thoroughly, and there are peaks of sulphuric acid easily enough to match Thera (which vulcanologists say was not the kind of eruption to shoot out that much sulphur anyway), at NUMEROUS dates within the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th centuries BC (see Zielinski et al in Science 264, 1994, pp. 948-952). The REAL FACTS show not only how pathetic is the case for the 17th-century proxy dating.
Geoarchaeology:
The Earth-Science Approach to Archaeological Interpretation

by George (Rip) Rapp, Jr. and Christopher L. Hill
p 158-159 -- "Artifacts from Akrotiri, linked to the Egyptian calendar [sic] put the Thera eruption at more than a hundred years later [than 1644 +/- 20 BC]. While the controversy remains open, it is our view that the volcanic activity recorded in the Greenland ice core more likely came from nearby Iceland than from the eastern Mediterranean (this may be testable by any chemical signature).

p 166 -- "Living samples from a freshwater lake on limestone terrain have been known to give a radiocarbon date of up to 1600 BP."
Bronze Age Myths?
Volcanic Activity and Human Response in the Mediterranean and North Atlantic Region

Paul C. Buckland
Andrew J. Dugmore
Kevin J. Edwards
Antiquity Vol. 71 (1997), pp. 581-593.
A first rule of statistics is that the existence of a correlation does not itself prove a causal connection... This paper examines some of the available evidence for these two Bronze Age 'catastrophes', the one real and in need of a calendar date, the other hypothesized on archaeological grounds and dated by a tenuous link through tree rings to an Icelandic volcano... Despite several cautionary comments from both archaeologists (Manning 1988; Warren 1988) and geologists (Pyle 1989; 1990), the 1628 BC date, or one close to it, continues to be accepted (e.g. Michael and Betancourt 1988), without questioning why the effects of the Santorini eruption should be especially recognizable in the ice-core and tree-ring sequences. Large-scale explosive volcanic activity is common on a global scale (Zielinski et al. 1996), and so before accepting the possibility that the Santorini eruption can be recognized by unusual perturbations in the regional records of ice-cores or tree-rings, the case for its distinctive character must be proved.
The Thera (Santorini) Volcanic Eruption and
the Absolute Chronology of the Aegean Bronze Age

by Sturt W. Manning
...It is argued that the key Late Minoan IA period, the high point of the Minoan civilisation, was not, as conventionally held, contemporary (even in part) with the New Kingdom (18th Dynasty) of Egypt, nor the Late Bronze 1 phase of the Levant. Instead, the Late Minoan IA period in the Aegean is linked with the late Middle Bronze Age of Syria-Palestine, the Second Intermediate (Hyksos) Period of Egypt, and the Late Cypriot IA period of Cyprus. This is an important realignment of cultural synchronisations. The high point of Crete should be considered in terms of the dominant Canaanite trading system of the late Middle Bronze Age, and not New Kingdom Egypt...

Appendix 2: Why the standard chronologies are approximately correct, and why radical re-datings are therefore incorrect.
Interestingly enough, Manning cites Lesson 17: Akrotiri on Thera which, while it toes the line regarding the current dating fictions, also notes that:
"More recently, the vulcanologists have claimed that the Santorini caldera formed quite gradually and that a tidal wave, if indeed there was one at all, would not have been on anything like the scale envisaged by Marinatos and other proponents of the link between the Theran volcano and the sudden decline of Neopalatial Crete."

20 posted on 07/18/2004 7:41:53 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: blam
Baillie works with tree rings, including (perhaps not directly) old ring samples from Anatolia and the Aegean. There's literally no proxy traces of any such eruption in tree-ring data (granted, it would be unlikely to be there).

Zielinski (et al)'s paper, actually papers, on the Thera question (which I don't have, but I think the abstract is online), show that there is no connection with the ice cores. Baillie used 1987 data, however the Zielinski work is not so new that he shouldn't have been aware of it when he wrote.

On Thera itself, and analogous to what my previous post quoted about limestone lakes, currently living small plants growing in the volcanic soil -- which is loaded with "old" carbon (C12), have radiocarbon dates centuries old.

21 posted on 07/18/2004 7:49:16 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: Shanda
Of course -- and when they backed up, it flooded the whole schmeer. ;') There are reports, as Blam notes, of an apparent submerged city in an old river estuary in NW India.
22 posted on 07/18/2004 7:51:04 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: SunkenCiv

The only thing I know about bathrooms in India is that George Costanza managed to avoid them completely during his trip to India.


23 posted on 07/18/2004 7:54:54 PM PDT by Shanda
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To: Shanda
Hey, he sweat it off. Made the shoe polish run though...
24 posted on 07/18/2004 8:04:11 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: Renfield
Don't laugh. I'll lay you 10-to-1 that a bunch of these corpses vote in the 2004 election.
I agree. No bet. ;')
Civ's favorites incl Books, Magazines, Movies, Music

25 posted on 07/18/2004 8:05:31 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: SunkenCiv

My money is on Baillie...besides, he looks like me, lol.


26 posted on 07/18/2004 8:47:39 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

It seems obvious to me that Atlantis was North and South America.


27 posted on 07/19/2004 6:13:34 PM PDT by Shanda
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To: blam

Thank you, blam, for these very interesting posts.


28 posted on 07/19/2004 6:23:10 PM PDT by Barset
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To: what's up; blam
...isn't that the same time of the Exodus?

The date of the Exodus hasn't been settled. Most scholars date it to the 13th century BC, but many have proposed dates in the 14th or 15th century BC. Most scholars with a high view of the Bible have advocated the 15th century based on textual evidence.

29 posted on 07/19/2004 6:29:41 PM PDT by Fifth Business
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To: Fifth Business
"The date of the Exodus hasn't been settled."

Yup. My money is on 1620-50BC.

30 posted on 07/19/2004 6:32:03 PM PDT by blam
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To: Shanda
"It seems obvious to me that Atlantis was North and South America."

These have been at the top of my list for quite a while...until recently. I'm leaning to Sundaland in SE Asia now.

31 posted on 07/19/2004 6:35:05 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Yup. My money is on 1620-50BC.

Why? Because of the "Column of fire" reference and Red Sea parting? I recollect an Egyptologist whose name escapes me suggesting the Thera explosion as explanatory for the Exodus events, but I believe he proposed 1477 BC or thereabouts.

32 posted on 07/19/2004 6:38:50 PM PDT by Fifth Business
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To: blam

Hans Goedike of Johns Hopkins U. was the scholar who dated the Exodus to 1477 BC. And he based his theory on D. Stanley's dating of the Thera eruption to around 1500 BC. If you google Thera and Stanley you'll get more info on his theory.


33 posted on 07/19/2004 6:46:15 PM PDT by Fifth Business
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To: Fifth Business
"Why? Because of the "Column of fire" reference and Red Sea parting? "

That's part of it. I read a lot of things and the most recent thing I've read is a report of charred grain found above the Thera ash layer but underneath the collapsed walls of Jerico that dated to the 1620-50BC period. A number of little things like that.

34 posted on 07/19/2004 6:52:39 PM PDT by blam
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To: Fifth Business
"And he based his theory on D. Stanley's dating of the Thera eruption to around 1500 BC."

His Thera date is wrong.

35 posted on 07/19/2004 6:56:05 PM PDT by blam
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To: Fifth Business
"And he based his theory on D. Stanley's dating of the Thera eruption to around 1500 BC."

His Thera date is wrong, IMO.

36 posted on 07/19/2004 6:56:35 PM PDT by blam
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To: Fifth Business
Most scholars with a high view of the Bible have advocated the 15th century based on textual evidence

This is what I was referring to.

37 posted on 07/19/2004 7:35:48 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Shanda
The only (surviving, known) ancient source for the Atlantis story is Plato, and one of the details that suggests inside info of some sort is the remark that, west of Atlantis, one would have found islands, and following those, one would come to the land that could most truly be called a continent -- the Americas.

38 posted on 07/19/2004 11:39:03 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: Shanda
Such a mysterious island and with such interesting people. I always wondered if it was the true cradle of civiliazation instead of Iraq

not plausible. Civilisations normally have developed near large river systems -- the Nile in Egypt, the Tigris-Euphrates Shal-Al-Arab in Iraq and the Indus Valley in India.
39 posted on 07/20/2004 4:39:41 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4!)
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To: Shanda

Well, they did have a pretty good city organisation and separate baths etc. The Mesopotamians were among the first city dwellers


40 posted on 07/20/2004 4:40:53 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4!)
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To: SunkenCiv; Shanda; blam
It seems obvious to me that Atlantis was North and South America.

And why "obviously"? I would mostly discount the entire Atlantis legend as, even if there is a grain of truth in it, Plato mythologized it to such a great extent, it's not really true any more. It may have been a small village that was drowned under the sea or it may have been more. Plato is not a satisfactory source to declare that Atlantis did ever exist at all.
41 posted on 07/20/2004 4:43:36 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4!)
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To: blam
Exodus

I've read a number of books that place the Exodus in that time period -- I am inclined to agree with you -- that would mean that the Pharoah talked about was NOT Ramsses but an earlier Pharoah.

I read in some book (can't remember the name) that hypothesised that the the Exodus was BEFORE the invasion of the Hyksos. The proof put forth was compelling -- it stated that:
  1. The Exodus was a major event in Egyptian history but its not mentioned because an even greater incident occurred that made everyone forget about the lesser things -- it's much more earth shattering if your people become slaves rather than losing slaves
  2. The Israelis are recorded in the bible as having attacked Midianites who seem to have been heading in the opposite direction -- so these may have been the Hyksos?
Of course there are compelling proofs on the other theory -- that Jacob came across during the time of the Hyksos -- since they were evidently a Semitic people, they would have welcomed another Semitic group. Correspondingly, when the Egyptians reconquered their land, they would have been harsh to what they perceived as the evil-doers who had conquered the sacred land of Egypt.
42 posted on 07/20/2004 4:50:25 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4!)
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To: Cronos; Shanda; blam
Plato mythologized it to such a great extent
That's the same argument raised about Homer. I do however agree to some extent, in that the really obviously made-up details -- the colors of rocks, the interior of a building -- are the very ones seized on by the "Thera was Atlantis" crowd, even as they claim that Plato "must have" had the location, size, and dates wrong. As Emilio Spedicato said:
This theory, which is widely accepted today, requires so many substantial changes to the Platonic text, that it is equivalent in our opinion to rejecting the text. Other theories which require substantial changes include those of Spanuth, who put Atlantis in Helgoland, and of James, who related Atlantis with the capital of the ancient kingdom of Tantalus, in western Turkey, which was apparently destroyed by a great mud flow. An intriguing identification of Atlantis with the Lesser Antarctica peninsula in Antarctica has been proposed by Barbiero and redeveloped by Flem-Ath. The idea that the Atlantis story derives from a memory of the flooding of the continental shelf of Northern Europe following the increase of the sea level after the end of the last glaciation has been developed by Castellani].Galactic Encounters, Apollo Objects And Atlantis: a Catastrophical Scenario For Discontinuities In Human History
There's an old joke; a man is obviously looking for something he must have dropped on the sidewalk. Another man stops to help, asking him what he's looking for. "My glasses. I lost them inside the restaurant." "Why are you looking for them out here?" "Because the light's better." While it is likely that human civilization first bloomed on what is now the continental shelf, unlike Blam, that doesn't mean Plato knew anything about any of them. But he tells us where and when, so that's how the looking needs to be done.

Plato gave a time frame that makes it difficult to accept the tale as folklore. Instead, he gives the source of the story as a tale heard by Solon while in Egypt. If Plato were crafting the tale in order to suspend disbelief, then launch into a tale of his ideal society (which he expounded on in "The Republic"), he may have included details of an invented Egyptian original. Or, there may have been an actual Egyptian original of the story (a later Greek sojourner in Egypt reported seeing the tale engraved in some temple there), obviously written down thousands of years after all of it happened, meaning that it was folkloric long before Plato reported hearing it third- or fourth-hand.

43 posted on 07/20/2004 10:05:43 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: SunkenCiv
"there may have been an actual Egyptian original of the story (a later Greek sojourner in Egypt reported seeing the tale engraved in some temple there), obviously written down thousands of years after all of it happened, meaning that it was folkloric long before Plato reported hearing it third- or fourth-hand."

The pyramid building 'Egyptians' arrived at about the same time as the Sumerians (probably the same people?) and they claim to have come from the east in ships. My guess is that they were refugees from an area that had gone underwater due to Ice Age melt...the tale of Atlantis may be their story of their homeland. Noah's Flood may just be another interpertation of the same flooding.

44 posted on 07/20/2004 2:51:54 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Did you know that Ramses the Great had red wavy hair?


45 posted on 07/20/2004 5:49:16 PM PDT by Shanda
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To: Shanda
"Did you know that Ramses the Great had red wavy hair?"

No, I didn't. What's your source.

46 posted on 07/20/2004 6:16:31 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
I saw it right here on FR.

Two people were discussing it. One did not agree that he had red hair. The other one showed him the places where he could find the info on the internet. The one who denied it changed his mind and agreed that he did indeed have red hair.

I do remember that his mummy is in France and French scientists studied some of his hair folicles with an electron microscope. They said there is no doubt about it. The fact that his hair was dyed with henna had no effect on their study. I think they surmised that it was dyed red to restore it to his youthful color.

Also very strong evidence that King David had red hair.

47 posted on 07/20/2004 6:24:03 PM PDT by Shanda
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To: Shanda
I did a search and found this on a paranormal/ufo site:

Red Haired Mummies Of Egypt

48 posted on 07/20/2004 6:38:33 PM PDT by blam
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Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

Please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

49 posted on 07/13/2005 11:34:48 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: Boss_Jim_Gettys

"Each filled with registered democrats and Kerry 2004 bumper stickers."

I'll bet the missing absentee ballots that would have shown Kerry won the election were in there as well. It's to be expected Cretans would vote for Kerry.


50 posted on 07/13/2005 11:37:43 AM PDT by ArmedNReady (Demand That Your Congressmen Declare islam a Terrorist Organization)
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