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Need FReeper Help With Understanding Something (Milosovic)
8/17/04 | Doug (itssoamusing)

Posted on 08/17/2004 8:38:32 AM PDT by itssoamusing

I'm relatively new to the world of FReeping for the most part. I need some help in understanding what the war in Bosnia was about. I'm particularly interested in the Muslim aspect of this. I've read numerous articles about this and Milosovic. I'm finding it hard to distinguish who was right and who was wrong. The impression I get from what I read is that Milosovic was killing Muslims and also that the Muslims were raping and beheading people etc. I've also been interested in reading about the many uprisings of Muslims throughout history and how it may relate to this. Forgive my poor knowledge of this subject.

Thanks in advance FReepers, Doug


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: balkans; milosevic; milosovic

1 posted on 08/17/2004 8:38:32 AM PDT by itssoamusing
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To: itssoamusing

http://www.pbs.org/weta/dictator/


2 posted on 08/17/2004 8:50:29 AM PDT by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: itssoamusing

I am trying to still figure out why the Democrats supported that war but not Iraq. Bosnia did not have UN support and did not pose any threat to the US, which is the arguement they use in calling the Iraq War unjust.


3 posted on 08/17/2004 8:50:46 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: itssoamusing

There is a decent summary in Huntington's "Clash".


4 posted on 08/17/2004 8:52:18 AM PDT by GSlob
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To: itssoamusing; MadIvan
I'm finding it hard to distinguish who was right and who was wrong.

Oh boy, you picked a really thorny subject. If you'd been here when our planes were bombing over there you'd have seen some nasty arguments. Some, like MadIvan, held that it was a just war. I'd say that the majority thought that it was Clinton's war. And no one can argue that it didn't really get solved, the place is still a mess.

Mad, I've always liked and respected you, even when I disagree. I don't want to re-fight the Balkan War debates, I'm pinging you only to ask a short answer of what you think. And let's not get in any fights, or I'll never forgive myself for pinging you.

5 posted on 08/17/2004 8:53:28 AM PDT by xJones
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To: xJones; itssoamusing
On the basis of what we discovered afterwards, I'd say it was the wrong war to fight. Milosevic was a socialist blowhard. The Kosovo Albanians had the help of Al Qaeda. Even Milosevic's opponents within Serbia, Otpor, had help from George Soros. To conclude, there was no "good guys" to assist in that fight. I am not exactly happy to admit error, but I do so in this case as the evidence must make me yield.

Regards, Ivan

6 posted on 08/17/2004 8:57:30 AM PDT by MadIvan (Gothic. Freaky. Conservative. - http://www.rightgoths.com/)
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To: itssoamusing
The impression I get from what I read is that Milosovic was killing Muslims and also that the Muslims were raping and beheading people etc.

I think the above sums it up quite adequately.

7 posted on 08/17/2004 8:59:10 AM PDT by luvbach1 (Leftists don't acknowledge that Reagan won the cold war because they rooted for the other side.)
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To: itssoamusing
The principals, Bosnian and Albanian, were gangs of thugs organized as armies. Or what appeared to be legitimate armies. In the end, both sides were criminal gangs. The Clinton administration thought it could unearth the "Good Guy's" and be in high international regard. It didn't happen that way. Imagine the police taking sides in a gang fight. In the end, they must leave or arrest everybody. Including themselves.

I see that you are under the mistaken impression that their are really smart people in the Department of State and the Pentagon. They're not smart, they have merely hidden their stupidity until it is proven by a situation such as Bosnia.

8 posted on 08/17/2004 9:11:44 AM PDT by elbucko (A Feral Republican)
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To: itssoamusing

Go to these websites for answers...

www.danielpipes.org and www.jihadwatch.org


9 posted on 08/17/2004 9:16:00 AM PDT by milford421
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To: xJones; itssoamusing

It wasn't Clinton's war - it was Albright's war.

It is a sordid history - goes back almost a thousand years. Genetically, Serbians and Bosnian's are of different stock. On top of it, they follow different religions. And have at different times been killing each other. Tito managed to crush everyone and form a semblance of a state (supported by Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill. They were all terrified of another war emanating from the Balkans, just as WWI had). As the iron fist of Tito relaxed after his death, the fissiparous tendencies of the various states erupted. Serbia tried to re-establish the state, but it successively failed against Croatia and Slovenia. It (under Milosevic) drew the line in the sand with Bosnia since it has some historic importance for the Serbs. The hellion exploded. Albright, originating from neighboring Czechkoslovakia (I forget if she is Czech or Slovak) had an interest in the region and decided that that was where she would prove her manhood.

And all the while, the gangrene in Afghanistan spread, and its stench still lives with us..........


10 posted on 08/17/2004 9:17:34 AM PDT by razoroccam (read Germs of War to know the real Armageddon)
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To: MadIvan

How's this? Way back in the 16th Century ( That was before Vietnam and Woodstock.) The Ottoman Turks who were peace loving Muslims Plundered the Balkans, raped the cattle and castrated the Serbian men. Where were the NYT (Oh no, ehtnic cleansing , rape squads.)? Fast Foreward to the Cold War (Up to and including Viet Nam and Woodstock.), the USSR and Jr. Managing Partner Marshal Tito took up where the Turks left off, i.e., all you Serbians, Slovaks, ethnic Turks, etc., play nice or else. Exuent Tito, USSR, who's next? Not me said the french, germans. The yanks will take care of it. Enter Clinton ,Holbrooke, Burger, et al.,trying to cover up their weakness on defense, intelligence, sex .. who knows what else? Intermission: General Wesley Clark performs Mamooska with hat swapping Serbian war criminal. Is it about time the E.U. steps up to the plate with their own military ? Not a chance.


11 posted on 08/17/2004 9:21:39 AM PDT by Calusa (One Nation Gone Under.)
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To: Always Right

Bosnia was to cover their a$$e$, just like they supported action against Saddam Hussein in 1998, and then was against it. It is all about covering tail.


12 posted on 08/17/2004 9:22:57 AM PDT by richardtavor (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem in the name of the G-d of Jacob)
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To: itssoamusing

Good luck. My wife is Serbian, her father from Bosnia-Herzegovina. We were married in my church, an Albanian Orthodox parish under the Greek Archdiocese, during the war! I thought I would try to get a handle on the situation in the Balkans and I found a lot of sources, all hopelessly biased either pro- or con-Yugoslavia. It's a complex situation, and there's a complex mixture of history, myth, and legend that sways the story whoever is telling it. The best source I found for a overall view of Yugoslavia's history, and why it turned out the way it did, is Rebecca West's "Black Lamb and Gray Falcon" written around 1938. It's pre-WW2, pre-Tito, but it shows that some of the seeds of Yugoslavia's destruction were planted practically from the beginning. What caused those seeds to germinate and grow, as far as I can tell, was Tito's shoring up his own regime by playing various ethnic groups against each other, which created a kind of order, but an order that began to unravel after Tito's death.


13 posted on 08/17/2004 9:24:28 AM PDT by Southside_Chicago_Republican (Alan Keyes 2004)
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To: itssoamusing
If you want to learn something, you're going to have to put some effort into it.

Try Silber and Little's Yugoslavia: Death of a Nation. You won't understand Bosnia without the context of the rest of Yugoslavia.

14 posted on 08/17/2004 9:25:35 AM PDT by Hoplite
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To: itssoamusing
Let's keep this simple.

Clinton bombed the wrong side.

15 posted on 08/17/2004 9:27:40 AM PDT by ChadGore (Vote Bush. He's Earned It.)
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To: razoroccam
Genetically, Serbians and Bosnian's are of different stock

Nope. Croats, Serbians, and Bosnians are essentially the same ethnic group.

PJ O'Rourke had an excellent article on Bosnian/Serbian/Croat thing, forget which of his books it's in. He remarked on how easy it was for people to pass as one of the other two groups when they needed to; next to impossible to tell apart visually.

And he said the joke about telling them apart was that Serbs don't go to church, Croats don't go to Mass, and Bosnians don't go to Mosque (Basically the only differences are alphabet...all have the same language, but the Serbs use Cyrillic, Bosnians and Croats use Roman...and religion, though really most of the people in all three groups weren't very religious when the wars started.)

The thing about FR is there are a lot of Serb apologists, who have found very fertile ground here with the whole "All Muslims are evil and should be exterminated" trend on FR.

Milosevic is a Communist and war criminal any way you slice it.

ALL three sides were guilty of war crimes against each other in the Bosnian Civil War; the Serbs were the worst basically because they had the most combat power, and more people from the other two groups under their control, thus the greatest ability to commit crimes against the most people.

16 posted on 08/17/2004 9:30:56 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: ChadGore

that was my thought....was Milo fighting against the Muslims?

Thanks to all FReepers for your insights.


17 posted on 08/17/2004 9:37:00 AM PDT by itssoamusing
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To: elbucko

no mistakes about that......thats for sure.
I cannot believe some of the stuff I read everyday about the Clinton Admin. My mother in law got me hooked on this sight and converted FOREVER. I voted for that ASS CLOWN before being reformed. My apologies to all (LOL)..hanging head in shame now. What a difference a couple years makes and trying to be and remain informed. This is the best site ever!!! Now I'm converting others.


18 posted on 08/17/2004 9:43:31 AM PDT by itssoamusing
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To: itssoamusing

Bu'Wai',we're always finding ways to intervene in other countries affairs. First we create the drug trade then we suppress the drug trade. First we send missionaries then we send troops to protect them for their abuses. We force other cultures to mutate into our own likeness, then, we're shocked when they do the same to us. See Africa, Japan,Iran.
Splinter groups in the US try to promote their alternate way of life by attempting to export it to other cultures. See Iran, see Margaret Mead. Maybe we need a new 12-step program for people who can't stop interfering in other Nation's affairs. See Tao, I-ching.


19 posted on 08/17/2004 9:56:58 AM PDT by Calusa (One Nation Gone Under.)
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To: Calusa

BTTT.......calling all kitties


20 posted on 08/17/2004 9:58:57 AM PDT by itssoamusing
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To: elbucko

Are you a Todd Schnitt listener? WIOD 610 AM Miami, Tampa, San Antonio. It's just one naughty expression you used.


21 posted on 08/17/2004 10:01:05 AM PDT by Calusa (One Nation Gone Under.)
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To: itssoamusing
In the pre-9/11 era, the Serbs dealt with their jihadist problem by going to war with the jihadists and tried to force them out. They decided that "terrorist czars" and "patriot acts" just wouldn't cut it for their situation which was much more desperate than the current US situation.

People like Bob Dole and Joe Lieberman wanted to give weapons to the jihadies to improve their chances of wiping out the Serbs. Other senators, one in particular, argued that this only prolongs the fighting and suggested that the US had a duty to humanity to bomb the Christian Serbs to soften them up for bin Laden's ground troops to go in for the genocidal kill and establish an Islamic foothold in Europe.
22 posted on 08/17/2004 10:03:08 AM PDT by Jim_Curtis (Liberals lie at the premise, accept their premise and you can only lose the argument.)
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To: itssoamusing

I'm not an experienced chat meister. Is that some kinda code? BTTT. Shock me.


23 posted on 08/17/2004 10:03:10 AM PDT by Calusa (One Nation Gone Under.)
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To: MadIvan
Appreciate objectivity, you still amaze me.

To ..soamusing: My take was that very little in the way of rational thought went into our actions toward the former Yugoslavia.

(a) Clinton had to cover his butt and look strong as well [as with Kerry's Vietnam saga]. (b) Clinton had some high class loonies on staff & in control, tough to select between Reno (Waco) and Albright (FRY). (c) Milo was probably the least blame-ridden in the mix but his style was a throwback and he made an easy (personal) target. (d) Clinton wanted to show the muslim world he was 'sensitive' to their desires. (e) Yugoslavia was an already dissolving state made up of many ethnicities (diverse...hint) that gave him the opportunity. (f) Germany and Albania both stood to benefit from reconfiguring the area and were major cheerleaders. (g) There is very little of an Orthodox influence in DC./there was a very strong albanian/muslim influence in the democrat party. (h) As you should know, we were even arming and training muslim forces so they could 'liberate' Serb territory, they eventually did occupy it. Those forces openly included mujahadeen (sp)and Al Quiada, mercenaries and maniacs, who are fighting us today.

(i) Finally, it is hard for Americans (today at least) to understand how people in that region can hate each other so completely when standing back here we can see little or no real difference between one group and the other. It helps that our media and education systems do nothing to correct that general lack of insight.

PS: Of all newly arrived immigrants, most of whom suffer only from the culture shock and lack of primary schooling, the "Kosovars" (Albanians, muslims) are the only group I've encountered that display absolutely ZERO positive attributes.

24 posted on 08/17/2004 10:06:42 AM PDT by norton
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To: Calusa
Try this on for size
25 posted on 08/17/2004 10:09:41 AM PDT by itssoamusing
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To: Jim_Curtis

There was one line of thought whereby the plight of the Bosnians was likened to the Holocaust, therefore we should intervene. I know I'm treading on thin ice, but how is it that US foreign policy can be driven by one group's collective guilt or similar psychological issues. Is it just a way for one or another group to project power and express their gains in their status in the pecking order? And there are other groups I see doing this.


26 posted on 08/17/2004 10:13:09 AM PDT by Calusa (One Nation Gone Under.)
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To: itssoamusing

Thank you. I read you loud and clear.


27 posted on 08/17/2004 10:17:09 AM PDT by Calusa (One Nation Gone Under.)
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To: itssoamusing

Are you asking specifically about Bosnia and not about Croatia or Kosovo?


28 posted on 08/17/2004 10:40:16 AM PDT by Diocletian
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To: All

When in an Athens (Greece) bed & breakfast in 2001, I was informed by the innkeeper, a Greek national, to make certain to keep the windows locked at night, as gypsies, Bosnian & Albanians were coming in drives to escape conditions resulting from Bosnia, would climb through the window, and rob us at the very least. Also, he mentioned that the largest business by far in Sarajevo had become heroin trafficking. Apparently, Greek state police were being murdered near the northern borders.

Maybe things have quieted a little by now.


29 posted on 08/17/2004 10:52:04 AM PDT by combat_boots (Dug in and not budging an inch)
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To: Calusa
It's just one naughty expression you used.

I beg your pardon, I did not use any "naughty expression" on any post on this thread. I believe you intended this upbraiding toward someone else.

Are you a Todd Schnitt listener? WIOD 610 AM Miami....

Nope! doesn't reach to where I am in SoCal.

30 posted on 08/17/2004 12:23:17 PM PDT by elbucko (A Feral Republican)
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To: itssoamusing

A fairly good book (in my opinion) is Kate Hudson's; "Breaking the South Slav Dream: The Rise and Fall of Yugoslavia."

You really need to go back as far the beginning of the 20 century to understand the dynamics of the Balkan conflicts between 1989-1999. Essentially, there are four conflicts to consider: Slovenia; Croatia; Bosnia-Herzegovina; and Kosovo.


31 posted on 08/17/2004 12:43:24 PM PDT by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: Calusa
"Maybe we need a new 12-step program for people who can't stop interfering in other Nation's affairs."

For what it's worth, I agree with you on this sentiment. Although, it will probably get you (hell, maybe even me) banned from here.

From George Washington's farewell address:

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them."

"Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations, are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand; neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing (with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the government to support them) conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary, and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied, as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that, by such acceptance, it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion, which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard."

32 posted on 08/17/2004 1:38:14 PM PDT by t_skoz
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To: Calusa

PS welcome to Free Republic


33 posted on 08/17/2004 1:40:31 PM PDT by t_skoz
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To: itssoamusing
Yugoslavia means roughly 'land of the south slavs'. Under the Communist Tito the country was organized along federal lines with 6 republics (Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia). However, the decision to give Bosnia-Hercegovian republic status did not sit well with either Croats or Serbs, both of whom had at one time or another administered the territory. To complicate things further B-H was the scene of the Croat fascist sponsored genocide against Serbs (1941-45) and was also the main battleground for the the 3-way civil war between Croat Ustasha, Serb Chetniks and the Communist Partisans (most of whom incidently were Bosnian Serbs).

Sometime during the 50's and 60's the Slavic Muslims of B-H began to develop a national identity based primarily on their religious heritage. Originally there were 5 founding nations (peoples) Serbs, Slovenes, Croats, Montenegrens and Macedonians. The 1963 Constitution recognized 'Muslim' as a people. That is as a Slavic people, since Albanian muslims were not granted the same status, always a sore point for them.

The issue of identity was one of the primary causes of the Yugoslav civil wars. The various nationalities reaserted themselves strongly once the bonds of communism came undone. Milosevic gets most of the blame for starting this trend, but it was probably inevitable anyway. Tudjman should certainly share the blame. During the Slovenian war, a friend of mine remarked with a mixture of disappointment and admiration, that the Slovenes were behaving like Serbs. What they were doing was asserting their national identity. The Bosnian Muslims did the same but with disasterous results. The Albanians were much more successful in that they convinced the world that the disaster of the Bosnian war would be repeated if the nobody intervened.

34 posted on 08/17/2004 1:49:57 PM PDT by moni kerr (Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way)
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