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Stone Age Columbus - Questions And Answers
BBC ^ | 8-22-2004 | BBC

Posted on 08/22/2004 12:06:57 PM PDT by blam

Stone Age Columbus - questions and answers

What was the Ice Age climate like in southern France/Spain?

During the last glacial maximum around 20,000 years ago the climate was a lot colder and drier than now. In southern France one could expect summer temperatures of between 5-10°C and winter temperatures dropping below -20°C. Even so, there were three basic land types that had their own advantages and disadvantages for people:

Wide coastal plain that was probably an open grass land with sparse vegetation Uplands that would have been much like the Arctic tundra today Inland valleys that were well sheltered and supported milder and more protected climates

What evidence is there that the Solutreans were a sea faring race?

It is not really correct to think of the Solutreans as a sea faring people, any more than we think of the modern Inuit of the Arctic as sea faring. A more proper term is maritime. This means that people were focused on marine resources and had the knowledge and ability to make their living on the margins of these, as well as inland. We have good evidence that Solutrean age people were well aware of and using marine resources along the shores of Spain and France; we find shell fish remains and seal bones in sites, as well as cave paintings of seals, auks, and ocean fish. We must remember that much of the ocean edge evidence is now under the sea on the ancient continental shelves that were exposed during Solutrean times. If we find evidence of maritime resources in Solutrean sites that would have been far from the beach. Imagine what we would find if we could investigate sites on the prehistoric ocean margins.

Why migrate west not south?

For Solutrean people in northern Spain and south western France, south was blocked by the glaciated peaks of the Pyrenees and Picos de Europa. In both cases, even had it been possible to traverse the mountains, south of them was a high, barren, wind-swept plain - a very uninviting and harsh area. We do see Solutrean-related people on and adjacent to the coasts of Portugal and Mediterranean Spain and France. Nevertheless, for people who live and are adapted to Arctic conditions going south was not the obvious option. The ice and sea were their garden and as the North Atlantic sea ice grew southward during the last Ice Age, it became one of the richest areas of sea life imaginable. West was the direction of plenty.

How far was the transatlantic journey 18,000 years ago?

The distance of the ice edge journey between land falls varied a lot from decade to decade and even season to season. At the maximum extent of North Atlantic winter sea ice, the distance between land was probably around three thousand kilometres. If you think of ice as different from land, this is quite a long way. However, to ice edge adapted people, ice is land. It has all that is needed for sustenance, freshwater, food, fuel, and with a bit of ingenuity, shelter from even the harshest conditions. Again, we need only look at the Inuit people to get an idea of what is possible.

Could people in an open boat and with few fuel reserves survive an extended period sailing through icefloes?

Boating along the ice and in ice floes gives ample protection from winds and high seas. If things get dicey, simply pull up on the ice and wait things out. We don't know what fuel reserves they may have had or needed. Seal, auk, and whale blubber is abundant in ice edge environments and has been used successfully as a fuel for thousands of years. Driftwood is also readily available along sea ice margins at times.

Were the Solutreans ahead of their time in many ways? How advanced were they?

In most ways, Solutrean people were a product of their times. They lived a typical late Pleistocene existence along with other cultures. What we do see, possibly related to the special environmental situation during the glacial maximum, is a tendency toward innovation. The Solutreans are credited with a number of technological innovations, such as the spear thrower, the bow and arrow, self-barbed spearhead, refined flaking techniques (eg pressure flaking) and with the beginning of maritime exploitation. It seems that the Solutreans represent one of those leaps forward in cultural development that mark the march of human advancement.

How dependable is the mitochondrial DNA analysis?

The research on human migrations has depended on many scientific disciplines. DNA research is complex and has many complications and qualifiers. The older samples are, the more difficult it is to obtain reliable results. In modern samples, a lot of assumptions have to be made about mutation rates and parent populations. Nonetheless, it is useful to make comparisons between different areas of the world to see what can be discovered. Current results are best regarded as preliminary, but nonetheless extremely interesting.

How far did the Europeans get in North America? Over the Bering Strait?

Assuming that Ice Age people did get from what is now southwestern Europe to North America, it is likely that they were the ancestors of what archaeologists call Clovis Culture. Clovis people spread throughout North America from the Atlantic to the Pacific coasts, and from northern South America to southern Canada. It is also clear that people entered North America from northeastern Asia and ultimately spread throughout the Americas. The answers really depend on when do we think of people as North Americans rather than Asians or Europeans? When do a people become native to a place?

If Clovis people came from Europe, has there ever been an influx to North America from Asia? How many influxes?

There is no question that people have been coming to the Americas from Asia for thousands of years. Anthropologists are certain of at least three major migrations from Asia over the last ten millennia, based on archaeological investigations. These just mark the major migrations; there has probably been a nearly continuous influx since the end of the Pleistocene. We must also consider that people have also been going in the other direction. The main difference between access from Europe and Asia is different geographical situations. Because of proximity of land, it has been possible for people to get from Asia to North America, with or without a land bridge, but it was only during the last Ice Age that a way was available for Stone Age people to arrive along an 'ice bridge' from Europe. As the glaciers receded and the sea rose, the means of travel between Europe and North America was cut off until the advent of true sea faring peoples.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: acrossatlanticice; age; ancientnavigation; answers; archaeology; brucebradley; clovis; columbus; dennisstanford; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; navigation; preclovis; precolumbian; questions; solutrean; solutreans; stone

1 posted on 08/22/2004 12:06:57 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv; Veto!

GGG Ping.


2 posted on 08/22/2004 12:08:29 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv; blam

GGG PING


3 posted on 08/22/2004 12:08:39 PM PDT by FairOpinion (FIGHT TERRORISM! VOTE BUSH/CHENEY 2004.)
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To: FairOpinion
Immigrants From The Other Side (Clovis Is Solutrean)
4 posted on 08/22/2004 12:11:53 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Iberia, Not Siberia
5 posted on 08/22/2004 12:13:07 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

read later


6 posted on 08/22/2004 12:15:45 PM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: blam; SunkenCiv; Veto!
It seems likely that Solutrean people found their way to North America about 20,000 years ago, as described. And that many waves of immigrants from Asia came the other way.

One might question why little archeological evidence remains of their exploits. Two reasons may be advanced. First, that their lifestyle, adapted to extracting resources from the sea, tended to have little impact on the land and its creatures. These people were not likely to have been the ones who caused mass extinctions.

The second reason was touched upon in the above article, that many of their settlements and artifacts are now under water. It is clear that the sea was lower for considerable periods of time by the observation of underwater stalactites in Caribbean caves.

I find it ironic, and oddly satisfying, to consider that the so-called European ancestors did not cause wildlife extinctions, but the sainted and fabled "red men" from the East may have lived less gently on the land than modern conservationists wish to believe.
7 posted on 08/22/2004 12:27:26 PM PDT by NicknamedBob (Champagne is just beer with the healthy stuff taken out.)
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To: blam

pingety-ping!
Stone Age mariners rock :)


8 posted on 08/22/2004 12:28:05 PM PDT by Graymatter (Bring it on, from Democratic "cut it out, waaaaaah")
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To: blam
Great article, and same with the attendant links..

Some very interesting arguments made on both sides, all of it educational..
The continental shelf undoubtedly contains a wealth of information on ice age and pre ice age habitation, and would most probably settle the issue once and for all...

I actually found it logical that pre clovis would spread along the southeast to the gulf, and eventually to the southwest, before moving northward..
I don't understand this as an argument against the Solutrian immigration...
With climate as a factor, the southern U.S. would have been much more hospitable, coastal / maritime activities available, and, as the Ice Age ended, the retreat of glaciation would have been followed by the culture's expansion northward..

This stuff is great... Thanks..

9 posted on 08/22/2004 2:22:26 PM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: blam

All matters relating to this time were resolved and exposed by Robert E. Howard, in a truly epic research project spanning several decades, culminating in a number of popular books. In order to make the subject matter more palatable for the general public he fictionalized certain aspects of his research. Conan and Sonja probably didn't exist per se, but Howard's books give considerable insight into this ancient civilization. :)


10 posted on 08/22/2004 2:23:41 PM PDT by Ironclad
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To: Ironclad
GMTA !!! ( great minds think alike )

I was thinking how this could be evidence of the pictish civilization, that Howard wrote about..
Overpowered by the Celts, they eventually disappeared.. to America??

Likewise, tales of the Fairy folk, or Shea, sailing westward to a mythical land, never to return..

I know it's just fantasizing, but having read "Bran Mac Morn", and every single "Conan" story ever written, Howard's tales are sometimes more convincing than reality..
( suspension of disbelief ) Yep, that's me, alright..

11 posted on 08/22/2004 2:53:06 PM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; A.J.Armitage; abner; adam_az; ...
thanks blam!
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.

12 posted on 08/22/2004 7:27:02 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: Ironclad; Drammach; HitmanNY; The Scourge of Yazid; mhking; Bear_in_RoseBear
Conan of Cimmeria:

Mitra's girdle! I don't know these wizards' fancy talk, but if they doubt my sword is real, I'll teach them a history lesson they won't soon forget, by Crom!


13 posted on 08/22/2004 8:52:59 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: Fedora
Oh man, how did I know you'd find a way to make a comic book reference on this thread?

Thanos:

Thanos is not amused, puny Earthling. THANOS IS NEVER AMUSED!!!

-good times, G.J.P. (Jr.)

14 posted on 08/22/2004 10:48:48 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (This tagline paid for by "Friends of Paul Rodriguez.")
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To: SunkenCiv; blam; et al
Alrighty then. For some of my more learned colleagues: This piece sort of addresses a question that's been on my mind for some time. The Beringia(sp) land bridge has been marketed as the likely boulevard(between the ice sheets) for the earliest settlers to western/northwestern N. America. Why so, when traveling on or near the edge of ice sheets would seem natural to men who lived their lives on or near the edge(no pun intended)? Is it too much of a stretch to believe that Man can and will travel and explore, for whatever reasons, regardless of the difficulties involved?

Does anyone else suspect the bone diggers may turn up homonid related evidence in the Americas that would indicate humanlike inhabitants going back tens of thousands of years? Could most of the evidence be underwater and therefore difficult to find traces of the few landlubbers that ventured from the nest?

FGS

15 posted on 08/23/2004 11:24:23 AM PDT by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.)
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To: ForGod'sSake
Try doing a Google search :

Search terms.. " Ice Age Sea Level "..

Take a look at some of the links, including those referring to "global warming"..

You will find maps / graphics showing what was the projected amount of additional land mass on the american eastern seaboard, western europe seaboard, southeast asian land bridge, siberian land bridge..

It's very hard to imagine the amount of available land that is now under as much as 450 feet of seawater.. until you see the graphics..

I think we will eventually find that climatic variations allowed for variations in the glacial coverage numerous times during the last ice age cycle..
Sometimes more, sometimes less..

We have historical precedent.. 1,000 years ago, the early norse explorers left greenland and went NORTH along the greenland coast, before heading west to america..
We were in a warming trend at the time.. it was warmer then than it is now.. ( planetary average-wise )
500 -600 years later, earth was hit with a mini-ice-age.. we're still coming out of that.. and we have seen, in our own lifetime, that on a year to year basis, and decade to decade, climatic changes can take place on a regional basis, as well as more locally..

Ice age travellers would have been those already familiar with the environment, like the Innuit.. Kayakers, seal hunters, ice floe riders, fishermen..
Following the advice of some ancient Sam Kinnison, they would have "gone where the food is"...
Seems logical that some families, following herds of seal, sea life migrations, etc., would occassionaly follow to the west.. to america.
Logically, (Jim) they would find better climates to the south, work their way into the gulf, and spread westward along the more temperate areas of the north american continent..
With the retreat of the glaciers, new hunting grounds would open up to the north..
With the opening of the Beringian passage(s), new game would arrive from the north.. hunters and their families would naturally head for the source of that game..

Another personal surmise of mine is that the Mandan may have been descendants of some of those original western travellers..
The Mandan were once the largest "native american" nation on the continent, populating the vast majority of the midwest.. numbering in at least the 10's of millions..
They populated the Mississippi and Missouri River valleys, from the gulf all the way to Montana..
Smallpox wiped them out, leaving less than 1,000 survivors of the Mandan nation..
The survivors were eventually adopted into the Sioux nation..

I'm wandering now, the Mandan are a sore point with me..
I'm done ranting..

16 posted on 08/23/2004 2:01:46 PM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: Fedora
Ever read the "last" of the Conan books?
He leaves his kingdom to his son and heads west, ending up in Central America..
Ends up killing the feathered serpent, Quetzequatl..

Just as much fun was working my way through the Tarzan series, which contains maybe 30, 35 books..
Tarzan In Pellucidar still works.. ( last of the series )

17 posted on 08/23/2004 2:09:40 PM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: ForGod'sSake

Yes.


18 posted on 08/23/2004 2:14:22 PM PDT by blam
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To: Drammach
Here's a map of the world with the water level reduced by a little over 300 ft.
19 posted on 08/23/2004 2:17:49 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Bump for later reading


20 posted on 08/23/2004 2:20:09 PM PDT by Nowhere Man ("Laws are the spider webs through which the big bugs fly past and the little ones get caught.")
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To: blam

BTTT


21 posted on 08/23/2004 2:27:18 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: Drammach
Thanks. I have looked a a few of the glaciation min/max maps, and amongst other things, a large part of the Gulf of Mexico was once dry land. The western shelf of Florida and the Yucatan were particularly large chunks. Like some others, I believe much/most of our history is under several hundred feet of water.

FGS

22 posted on 08/23/2004 3:28:43 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.)
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To: Drammach

I've heard of that story but haven't read it yet. I love Howard and Burroughs' work but I'm still working through it. I also have a ton of non-Conan Howard stories and non-Tarzan Burroughs stories, which I've only had time to read about half of so far. I read the first "John Carter of Mars" recently and thought it was one of the best stories I've read in years. Solomon Kane is another of my favorites.


23 posted on 08/23/2004 6:45:44 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: The Scourge of Yazid
Darkseid:

I, DARKSEID, AM EVEN LESS AMUSED THAN THANOS! THANOS IS A GIGGLING GIRL COMPARED TO THE UNSMILING, IMMOVABLE COUNENANCE OF DARKSEID! ONLY TOM LANDRY IS MORE STONE-FACED THAN I!

24 posted on 08/23/2004 6:53:37 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: The Scourge of Yazid
PS: AND IN CASE YOU'RE WONDERING, DARKSEID DOES KNOW HOW TO SPELL "COUNTENANCE" CORRECTLY, CONTRARY TO THE APPARENT TYPOGRAPHIAL ERROR IN DARKSEID'S LAST POST. DARKSEID MEANT TO DO THAT!
25 posted on 08/23/2004 6:55:41 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: blam

Cool map.
Looks like the Great Bahama Bank, as well as Florida Bay were all dry land. That would screw up the crawfishing for the guys in Spanish Wells, for sure.
I don't see Chesapeake Bay either


26 posted on 08/23/2004 6:56:08 PM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: Fedora; Fiddlstix; GeronL; Bacon Man; buffyt; Xenalyte; txrangerette; lavrenti; Alamo-Girl
Tom Landry:

Now, where the heck did I put my hat?

27 posted on 08/23/2004 7:10:36 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (This tag-line paid for by "Friends of Paul Rodriguez.")
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To: ForGod'sSake
"a large part of the Gulf of Mexico was once dry land. The western shelf of Florida and the Yucatan were particularly large chunks."

I've gone so far as to speculate that the Gulf Of Mexico was blocked off from the world's oceans during the Ice Age...and, at some point reflooded, like the Black Sea.

28 posted on 08/23/2004 7:35:36 PM PDT by blam
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To: Sam Cree
"I don't see Chesapeake Bay either"

A lot of things are missing. The Persian Gulf, the Red Sea is landlocked and the Mediterranean is blocked in at least two, maybe three places.

Now, some believe the water level was another 200 ft lower. Lots and lots of flooding.

29 posted on 08/23/2004 7:41:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

I guess Mobile Bay and Lake Pontchartrain were dry as well;-)

It's easy to imagine Florida Bay as dry, its average depth has to be less than 6 feet, and the Bahama Banks less than 20.

So if the water level was another 200 ft lower, that means more ice?


30 posted on 08/23/2004 7:45:27 PM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: Sam Cree
"So if the water level was another 200 ft lower, that means more ice?"

Yup.

31 posted on 08/23/2004 7:59:47 PM PDT by blam
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To: The Scourge of Yazid

Thanks for the ping!


32 posted on 08/23/2004 8:47:37 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
You're welcome!
33 posted on 08/24/2004 5:38:15 AM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (This tag-line paid for by "Friends of Paul Rodriguez.")
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To: blam
I've gone so far as to speculate that the Gulf Of Mexico was blocked off from the world's oceans during the Ice Age...and, at some point reflooded, like the Black Sea.

I haven't run across a model that would support that notion yet, but I haven't done a whole lot of research on the subject either. Ya never know. I ran across a clean graphic of the Gulf ~18,000 years ago, on the EPA's website of all places:


FGS

34 posted on 08/24/2004 7:28:08 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.)
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To: ForGod'sSake
" I ran across a clean graphic of the Gulf ~18,000 years ago, on the EPA's website of all places:"

I wonder what water depth this was based on?

35 posted on 08/24/2004 7:45:07 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

This could only have been written by a landsman with a great deal of ignorance of seamanship.


36 posted on 08/24/2004 7:58:39 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: blam
I wonder what water depth this was based on?

GOOD question. I'll see if I can get back to their site for more particulars.

FGS

37 posted on 08/24/2004 8:08:10 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.)
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To: blam
I wonder what water depth this was based on?

It appears their graphic is based on a sea level drop of ~425 feet. Late Pleistocene time period in particular. Have a looksee.

FGS

38 posted on 08/24/2004 8:21:47 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.)
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To: blam

"Here's a map of the world with the water level reduced by a little over 300 ft."

interesting map.

Australia is still isolated.
Red Sea is a lake.
Gibraltar is open.
Bosporus is closed.
But the map assumes the Black Sea is filled to then-sea level. It might have been dry (or lower) at the time.


39 posted on 08/24/2004 8:40:06 PM PDT by edwin hubble
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To: ForGod'sSake
"It took so much water to form the glaciers that the world sea level fell approximately 140 meters (425 feet). This exposed the flat continental shelves, now covered with water, as dry land. This lowering of sea level has the same effect as raising the land, which caused rivers to begin eroding deep valleys. The Lower Mississippi, Tombigbee-Alabama, and Red River systems formed deep cuts in the existing land surface. As the glaciers melted and sea levels rose again, the valleys were filled with sediment carried by meltwater-swollen rivers."

Very good, thanks. I've read that the Nile River valley must have looked like the Grand Canyon.

I got to thinking about this due to the 'under-water-city' discovered off the west coast of Cuba...it's under 2,200ft of water, too much for subsidence, IMO. I proposed that it was built on the shore of a dessicated Gulf Of Mexico that was later flooded.

40 posted on 08/24/2004 8:44:23 PM PDT by blam
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To: edwin hubble
"Gibraltar is open."

I 'see' Gilbrater closed and the Mediterranean sectioned in at least in two places.

41 posted on 08/24/2004 8:52:09 PM PDT by blam
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Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

42 posted on 08/09/2006 10:53:44 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Thursday, August 10, 2006. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: blam

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·

 
Gods
Graves
Glyphs
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

from two keywords, "solutrean" and "solutreans", sorted chrono: To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

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43 posted on 06/24/2009 2:57:46 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.troopathon.org/index.php -- June 25th -- the Troopathon)
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To: StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; decimon; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; ...
Note: this topic is from 8/22/2004. A re-ping. Thanks blam.

44 posted on 02/16/2015 3:58:21 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
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