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School siege: Russians react
BBC ^ | Friday, 3 September, 2004

Posted on 09/03/2004 10:45:47 AM PDT by michigander

Last Updated: Friday, 3 September, 2004, 15:44 GMT 16:44 UK

School siege: Russians react

Hundreds of BBCRussian.com readers have been expressing their reactions to the bloody climax of the Russian school siege.

All have expressed sadness at the plight of those injured and killed in the siege, however opinion is sharply divided over the role of the Russian special forces and the actions of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Here is a selection of their translated comments.


What are you going to feel if someone puts a gun to the head of someone you love more than yourself? A huge desire to do something to save him? Huge anger? Hopelessness? Now all Russia is experiencing all of these feelings.
Sergei, Russia

I'm bitter that our law enforcement agencies are so helpless. I am ashamed of Putin who lacks the political will to get them into order and work properly.
Nikolai, Russia

Why are our intelligence services always one step behind the terrorists and do not anticipate their plans? Where are the analysts and people with non-standard ways of thinking? If we are at war, why don't they teach us how to live in these conditions? I work in a hospital and every morning, when I enter the building, I think how easy it would be to take us hostage.
Olga, Russia

Everything was done correctly... When a building is stormed like this there are always victims. Now the main thing is to take the same action against the surviving terrorists, to prevent others summoning up the courage to attack a nursery or a maternity ward.
Anton, Russia

It seems that hostages escaped themselves from the building as soon as it was possible. This was not an operation. There is no merit of the Special Forces.
Ale, Russia

As I understand, this was a reaction to a blast inside the building and the shooting of hostages. I think the Special Forces did everything right.
Sergei, Russia

As long as the Russian authorities think only about their own safety, as long as corruption and economic and criminal disorder flourishes in the country, nightmares like this one will repeat themselves again and again. With great regret, one has to accept that our Special Forces showed once again their complete helplessness. Alas, we and our children have no defence, we can rely only on ourselves, and on chance. Only why is it that we pay taxes?
Marina, Russia

It is easy to accuse the special services of not knowing how to do their job when you are sitting in an armchair in front of a computer. Having blown up a sports hall and begun to break out into the town the bandits left the military no choice. In these circumstances it was necessary to storm the building.
Maxim, Russian Federation

Those who failed to protect people must resign! Otherwise it will continue forever. They needed to arrest Basayev and exchange him for children. Why are the Special Forces so helpless? Ten years gone and nothing has changed.
Alexei, Russia

Taking into account that the storming was unplanned the operation can be considered satisfactory.
Nikolai, Russia

It's awful that people have died, but everyone knows very well that there would be many more dead people if the storming had not taken place. God give strength to the parents whose children were there. I am praying for one thing alone: that the number of dead should be small, may they at least be alive, even if they are wounded.
Lena, Moscow

This was inevitable. On the other hand, the authorities have shown a lack of organisation and coordination. How is that possible - terrorists escaping a building that has been surrounded for three days? The president must do something with those who are responsible.
Ivanov, Russia

Russian special forces are only capable of battling dissidents and providing protection to businessmen. When it is a matter of freeing hostages it turns out they are incapable of anything. But they receive medals and awards anyway.
Andrei, Russia

Obviously the initiative is in the hands of the terrorists not our authorities. The authorities are disorganised, that's why the storming was so chaotic. The result is the worst possible outcome. My condolences to the parents of the dead children.
Grigory, Russia

It's very frightening! How are the little children who endured this horror going to get over it?! How will the parents of the dead children go on living?! And the special forces, judging by the information coming in, were unprepared. Otherwise how could the terrorists have broken through the cordon? It is completely unclear who is guilty of starting the shooting which led to the deaths of so many people.
Anna, Moscow

I think there was no other way out. If the security forces had made compromises, this would have happened again. I am sorry for the dead.
Danila, Russia



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: caucasus; ossetia

1 posted on 09/03/2004 10:45:48 AM PDT by michigander
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To: michigander

If they were American, many of them would be Bush voters today.


2 posted on 09/03/2004 10:49:36 AM PDT by cripplecreek (The economy won't matter if you're dead.)
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To: cripplecreek

I myself recently began to take a deadly form of martial arts currently taught to our Rangers, Marines, and Israeli IDF. I suggest we all do the same and take the offensive. These miserable roaches need to be exterminated. It begins with each individual being able to defend himself/herself and his/her family.

Get armed, get trained, get prepared, and be on guard to seek and destroy that which threatens the rest of us!


3 posted on 09/03/2004 10:56:19 AM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: michigander

http://www.neverforgetneveragain.com/


4 posted on 09/03/2004 10:58:28 AM PDT by truthandlife ("Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God." (Ps 20:7))
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To: chris1

Good for you. What is this form called?


5 posted on 09/03/2004 10:59:23 AM PDT by diamond6 (Everyone who is for abortion has already been born. Ronald Reagan)
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To: michigander
"This was inevitable. On the other hand, the authorities have shown a lack of organisation and coordination. How is that possible - terrorists escaping a building that has been surrounded for three days? The president must do something with those who are responsible. Ivanov, Russia"

Good question, Ivanov.

6 posted on 09/03/2004 11:03:32 AM PDT by monkeywrench
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To: diamond6

Ki Chaun Do

www.attackproof.com

It is based on deadly strikes that were taught to WWII soldiers fighting the Japs without the years to train in traditional martial arts.

In a very short period of time, I see myself becoming very able to fend off attackers and deliver hell on almost anyone.

Check out the site. Great info.

Semper Fi.


7 posted on 09/03/2004 11:06:48 AM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: cripplecreek
"If they were American, many of them would be Bush voters today."

Not necessarily;
notice how many blamed "the authorities" for not "protecting them."

The "Dimocrat" mentality is universal...

8 posted on 09/03/2004 11:08:13 AM PDT by Redbob
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To: chris1
"I myself recently began to take a deadly form of martial arts currently taught to our Rangers, Marines, and Israeli IDF."

Me too:

Handgun marksmanship.
---------

Contrast Russia with Israel: The Israelis armed their populace, and the terrorists stay the h3ll away from schools and such nowadays.

9 posted on 09/03/2004 11:11:55 AM PDT by Redbob
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To: michigander
Why are our intelligence services always one step behind the terrorists and do not anticipate their plans?

What? You mean strike them before they hurt you? What an utterly ghastly, barbaric and American thought. Seems like parts of the world are finally realizing the truth of the Bush Doctrine.

10 posted on 09/03/2004 11:14:45 AM PDT by rabidralph (Kerry wants to be the spitball president.)
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To: chris1

More details please?


11 posted on 09/03/2004 11:14:47 AM PDT by SeeRushToldU_So (Shut up and sing. I don't care what you think.)
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To: SeeRushToldU_So

Go to:

www.attackproof.com

I was looking for something effective simple, and no nonsense. I don't need exercise bacause I am already fit, I wanted something reality based. This is it.


12 posted on 09/03/2004 11:17:15 AM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: chris1

Thanks! I think I have heard of that a long time ago.


13 posted on 09/03/2004 11:18:20 AM PDT by SeeRushToldU_So (Shut up and sing. I don't care what you think.)
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To: michigander
I don't think the Russian people understood there wasn't much that could be done in the situation. It's time for Russia to declare war on terrorism and join with the rest of the world in getting this menace under control.

What is stunning is the fact that so many were Arabs!

14 posted on 09/03/2004 11:19:06 AM PDT by McGavin999 (If Kerry can't deal with the "Republican Attack Machine" how is he going to deal with Al Qaeda)
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To: Redbob

Don't kid yourself, many people panic and get to the gun. Marksmanship is crucial, but so it reaction time and response to fright.


15 posted on 09/03/2004 11:21:04 AM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: michigander

Uh - excuse me you stupid Russians - Reuters says they're "MILITANTS", not "terrorists". Got that?

</sarcasm>


16 posted on 09/03/2004 11:21:24 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever ("The message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing...")
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To: Rutles4Ever
- Reuters says they're "MILITANTS", not "terrorists". Got that? Oh, ya mean they weren't "freedom fighters"?
17 posted on 09/03/2004 11:28:37 AM PDT by RonHolzwarth ("History repeats itself - first as tragedy, then as farce" - Karl Marx)
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To: RonHolzwarth

I'm sensing there was an incredible temptation at BBC to switch out the word "terrorists", which appears quite often in these direct quotes of the actual people who were there..


18 posted on 09/03/2004 11:30:23 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever ("The message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing...")
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To: chris1

Ki Chuan Do?

So is your ki strong enough to knock somebody down without touching them?


19 posted on 09/03/2004 11:34:40 AM PDT by Rammer
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To: Rutles4Ever
I'm sensing there was an incredible temptation at BBC to switch out the word "terrorists", which appears quite often in these direct quotes of the actual people who were there..

WELL! I have another "take" on that!

I think they might have been talking in Russian, and the word they used would be more accurately translated as:

MURDERERS!
20 posted on 09/03/2004 11:38:12 AM PDT by RonHolzwarth ("History repeats itself - first as tragedy, then as farce" - Karl Marx)
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To: Rammer

Not yet. Check out the site. www.attackproof.com

I hope never to need it, but if the time comes, I want to be as best prepared as possible.


21 posted on 09/03/2004 11:38:49 AM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: michigander

This just in.

Roughly 15 terrorists took over an elementary school in Spring, Texas today. Of the 67 teachers, and 450 students - all but one have been successfully released, and the terrorists gave themselves up unconditionally. We have learned from a source who wishes to remain anonymous why the terrorists gave themselves up.

The following transcript was released by authorities concerning the converstaiton between a government negotiator, and one of the terrorists, who claimed to represent Ali Akbar Jihadi, a heretofor unknown group organized in a Dallas mosque.

_________________________________________

Terrorist:
You must release all of your prisoners from Gitmo, you must remove all of your troops from Iraq and cease your criminal support of the Zionist entity.

US Negotiator:
Or what?

Terrorist:
We will kill all of the hostages. If you try to storm this place, we will kill all of the hostages. If you kill one of us, we will kill 50 hostages, and if you wound one of us, we will kill 20 hostages.

US Negotiator:
Do you want to die?

Terrorist:
Listen infidel, I will kill this b* to prove my point.

US Negotiator:
Okay, but answer my question, do you want to die?

Terrorist:
I will die for Allah! Allah Akbar *gunshot* THERE - you made me do it, she is dead.

US NEgotiator:
Okay, so you want to die.

Terrorist:
Yes, you Americans don't care about the Arabs . . .

US Negotiator:
Save the BS for somebody who cares dilbert. I'm going to give you a choice - and this is it. Put down your weapons, drop your bomb belts and walk out of the school with your arms above your heads.

Terrorist:
I will kill another hostages... Allah Akbar . . .

US Negotiator:
Fine, when you get done killing your next hostage - please put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye, because I am about to wipe your sorry butt and everybody in that school off the planet... and YOU and your stupid 3rd century backward arse religion will be blamed.... and the next thing on the agenda is the elimination of Mecca? Do I have your attention yet sweetpea? Nobody gets to go on a happy Haj, and they'll all blame you.

Terrorist:
You will not kill these people!

US Negotiator:
Why not? They are already as good as dead.... and we get the great excuse of you blowing them up with a nuclear weapon.... and we can kill every heathen bas&&& on earth and nobody will blame us.

Terrorist:
You lie:

US Negotiator:
Mike Mike Bravo Sierra, Eagle 1 release code inbound

3rd voice:
roger that, release code check

Terrorist:
What was that?

US Negotiator:
That, my raghead bent over friend, was a code for a pilot now at 40,000 feet to check his data box for a weapons release code transmitted by the President of the United STates to nuke your arse.

Terrorist:
*silence*

US Negotiator:
I thought that would get your attention. I figure that you have 60 seconds before the bomb is dropped, maybe 45 seconds after that to pray to Allah that you're right.... else, you might want to pray to the other guy for a nice cozy spot.

Terrorist:
You have just ordered all of these hostages to their death. Why can you do this, you MUST negotiate!!

US Negotiator:
I am negotiating.

Terrorist:
*silence*

US Negotiator:
Surrender, or die. You're choice. Just know that after your dead, alot more people are gonna die... and they will all be somewhere along a certain funny looking black meteorite.

Terrorist:
*silence*

3rd voice:
Zulu at initial point, drop in 15

US Negotiator:
roger

Terrorist:
okay, we are coming out now. Please do not shoot us.

US Negotiator:
Mike Mike Sierra, cover and reset to IP.

Terrorist:
*silence*

US Negotiator:
Drop your weapons and come out with your hands above your heads, you will not be harmed if you surrender.

Terrorist:
sniff sniff okay sniff sniff

____________________________

PokeyJoe school of Terrorist Management


__________________________________

To the weak knees....

I have a daughter.... nuff said.

___________________________________

John Kerry's response?

Terrorist:
. . . zionist entity.

JK:
Okay. We surrender. I ordered our troops out of Iraq, and the zionist entity will not longer take your muslim land, and we have given the Holy City of Detroit's Immam Ali Akbar Mummia to institute Sharia.

Terrorist:
The Holy City of Detroit is free!


22 posted on 09/03/2004 11:39:03 AM PDT by PokeyJoe (The plural for RAT is RATS, not RATICS)
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To: RonHolzwarth

You may be right...

When will people realize it's us or them?


23 posted on 09/03/2004 11:41:13 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever ("The message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing...")
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To: Redbob

No, they just blow up buses and cafes and God knows what else to kill innocent people. I'm not sure the Israeli model is as effective as you'd like to believe.


24 posted on 09/03/2004 11:43:12 AM PDT by dmz
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To: chris1

Hahahaha!

Good one.


25 posted on 09/03/2004 11:45:34 AM PDT by Rammer
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To: Rutles4Ever
When will people realize it's us or them?

Hmmm,,,

Maybe when Middle Easterners are afraid to walk the streets because of the lynch mobs?
26 posted on 09/03/2004 11:57:02 AM PDT by RonHolzwarth ("History repeats itself - first as tragedy, then as farce" - Karl Marx)
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To: michigander

This is one of the underlying, foundational reasons for the 2nd amendment. Every community should have a local militia who volunarily stands guiard at vulnerable targets. Furthermore, they should not be restricted to shotguns and semi-auto weapons either, effective as those may be in certain situations. This would be the first line in real homeland security. It also happens to be the first line of defense against criminals in general. Can you imagine the outcry from the Kool-Aid swillers of such a thing were even seriously proposed here?

Terrorism is the waging of war via criminal acts. People need to get out of the liberal mindset that the government can protect them from this sort of thing. At the end of the day, a government's abilities are limited - especially in a constiutional republican government. If there had been local militia units stationed at the routes into town and at potential targets (like schools, hosptials, etc.), there might have been a bloody firefight as the evil butchers came in, but it could have bought time to evacuate the soft targets if nothing else. I live in a town about the same size as Belsan. I, and lots of other like-mided folks, would gladly volunteer for guard duty at any of the potential targets here and keep a watch. If we attempted to do so, we'd have the FBI, the ATF - urged into action by the ADL, the ACLU and the SPLC, breaking down our doors and charging us with being a terrorist group. The poiltical class in this state (Illinois) is hell-bent on abolishing firearms ownership altogether.


27 posted on 09/03/2004 12:06:18 PM PDT by Bogolyubski
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To: michigander

Just pass a law that prohibits guns within 500ft of every school. That'll stop 'em.


28 posted on 09/03/2004 12:09:38 PM PDT by rudypoot (Kerry sold out the US for political gain before now and he is doing it again.)
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To: michigander

Today, we are all Russian.


29 posted on 09/03/2004 12:10:01 PM PDT by ChocChipCookie (Born conservative. Born again by the grace of God.)
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To: rudypoot

I was thinking that passing a law like that might help too.

Like I said earlier, Get Armed, Get Trained, Get Prepared, Get Ready!


30 posted on 09/03/2004 12:14:08 PM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: chris1

Your post intrigued me, so I checked it out. There is a full gym 10 min. from my house that offers KCD 3x/wk, one w/J. Perkins. I'm gonna sign up tomorrow. Thanks.


31 posted on 09/03/2004 12:18:20 PM PDT by TIGHTEN
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To: TIGHTEN

Which one?? I go to the Hastings Class. It is great. I took martial arts before, but this is top notch. Many in the class took martial arts before and believe this is far superior.


32 posted on 09/03/2004 12:21:56 PM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: michigander

People prepare yourselves. It is only a matter of time before this sort of thing happens in the U.S. Be vigilant! Watch! Talk to you school boards about what can be done to improve security. We need to move on this NOW since it is only a matter of time.


33 posted on 09/03/2004 12:25:14 PM PDT by Avenger
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To: Redbob

I carry a glock 21, requalified last month.


34 posted on 09/03/2004 12:26:11 PM PDT by TXBSAFH (Bandwidth is too good for these (L)users.)
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To: chris1

Premier. In Nanuet, NY.

My only training happened "on the job" :) Won a few, lost a few.

I didn't even know the gym existed and it sounds great. I'm really looking forward to working out with weights again too (it's been 10yrs).

Did you buy the books and videos in addition to taking the class?


35 posted on 09/03/2004 12:29:57 PM PDT by TIGHTEN
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To: michigander

The critics of the Russian authorities are being ridiculous. Terrorists succeed because it is impossible to guard everyplace all the time. In this case it's not "the best defence is a good offense", it's the ONLY defense is a good offense.


36 posted on 09/03/2004 12:32:40 PM PDT by jimt
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To: TIGHTEN

I am going to the Saturday class tommorow at 10 oclock. In the class I go to, we have about half cops and half other people like myself. Perkins teaches the cops many valuable street lessons and tricks that could save their lives. One cop told me he has already used what he learned to take out three guys on Yonkers, which is where I live.

The class is good because it is based on what works, nothing fancy. There are no uniforms or kata.

Maybe I will see you there.


37 posted on 09/03/2004 12:33:40 PM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: TIGHTEN

I was researching schools on the internet because I wanted something real, effective, and deadly. Tae Kwon Do and other traditional styles don't do it for me. The whole fancy kicking and punching thing does not work for most.

This is based on short strikes, chops, elbows, and using your enemy's moves against him.

I bought the book after I started taking the class. The book can be bought in Barne's & Noble.

For you freepers - if you get chocked or grabbed, you for the
eyes or throat, it is the olny think that might save you. Forget about overpowering an attacker.

Rather than blocking punches, you should be striking and attacking.


38 posted on 09/03/2004 12:37:36 PM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: chris1

Cool. You're coming over here? I'll be there around 9:00am to get a membership, then attend the 10am class.

I'll be the one lookin' stupid :o

If I'm outside, I drive a forest green Avalanche.


39 posted on 09/03/2004 12:40:11 PM PDT by TIGHTEN
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To: TIGHTEN

I will have a white Explorer. I am 29 and built like a tank. I am sure you will enjoy the class. It is everything you read on the website.

The instructor Major Al Ridenhour is no joke. This guy kicks major butt.

Perkins has a really nice way about him.

Freepers - if you want to learn a few moves to protect yourself - www.attackproof.com


40 posted on 09/03/2004 12:48:02 PM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: chris1

"Guided chaos" is what got me. Thanks again, I'll see you tomorrow.


41 posted on 09/03/2004 12:58:57 PM PDT by TIGHTEN
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To: TIGHTEN

Just read the page from the other martial artists and law enforcement guys. I will take their words for it!


42 posted on 09/03/2004 1:00:23 PM PDT by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: PokeyJoe
the next thing on the agenda is the elimination of Mecca

One can only dream...

43 posted on 09/03/2004 2:07:52 PM PDT by my_pointy_head_is_sharp
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