Skip to comments.Blogger Challenge: Let's start with Iraq, shall we?
Posted on 09/16/2004 9:41:11 AM PDT by Stallone
The article is quite complimentary to the new media.
It ends with a challenge to help solve world problems that media organizations only whine about.
So, taking up the challenge:
Freepers, in all seriousness, how to we best resolve the Iraq situation.
(Excerpt) Read more at sltrib.com ...
Bomb them to oblivion?
Get out fast?
Relocate the UN there?
Leave it alone, they're doing great?
Let's use this thread to consolidate the best ideas for helping to expedite the Iraq situation, and teach old media a few things.
Did I leave anything out?
She misses the SPECIFIC point made by recent events.
THe internet is no better a "problem-solving" tool than more traditional tools, unless it is an INFORMATION based problem. What distributed processing represents is an exponentially better way to PROCESS INFORMATION.
Journalism, if it is fact based and not just political activism in disguise -- journalism is mainly just information testing and publishing. Document analysis is information.
Many of life's problems are not just information-processing tasks, but also involve supra-information, like politics.
Iraq is a political problem. Iraq is a religious problem. Iraq is a military problem.
The bloggers have dethroned the Old Media. The bloggers cannot "solve" political problems any better than any model already in existence.
You aren't serious are you. We spent thousands of hours talking about the Kosovo/Serbia war as a cover for the Terrorist to move into Europe through the door opened by Bill Clinton. We were called tin-foil haters etc etc. We discussed at length the TWA 800 bombing and were called tin-foil hate types and even Rush ridiculed us. Now that the media has been shown to be the incompetent commie/fascist/socialist/dumb dums we all knew they were..........your suggesting we do What. Make a case for what a great guy Saddamn is, question WMD's which the French so nicely helped Saddamn smuggle to Syrian. What? Be specific.
Well stated. You saved me from making the same point.
The following has some relevance to the discussion:
Here's my two cents:
The Arab mind, through a combination of religious training and culture, respects only power and desires to follow. It simply cannot lead.
The Arab mind is not comfortable, nor is it competent, in being self-directing.
The terrorists are masters at exploiting this vulnerability, seen only in the west with left-leaning Socialists.
The coalition must seize the initiative.
Since the religious leaders hold such sway over the Arabs, it is past time that the coalition find and promote religious leaders to finally start declaring loudly and publicly that resistance is futile and that terrorism is wrong.
Remember: The most likely form of 'democracy' that can ever take hold within the next century will be one guided by a Giuliani, an iron-fisted maverick who first necessarily demonstrates control and earns the respect of the Arabs.
As to Iraq, my guess is things are going much better there than CBS is portraying.
Plus assist in muddling situations further.
Information-based problems are often a snap.
Geo-political ones require a different level of thinking.
But in watching even this very worthy administration, we have all witnessed seriously incoherent strategies.
Remember the earliest bifurcations on the issue of Palestinian terrorism shortly after 9/11, i.e. still not justifying Israeli pre-emptive action in the opinion of America (Powell!).
The ridiculous Al-Sadr strategic truces we honored whenever we cornered him, parroting the Arab historical precedence with similar consequences.
I really think we can add a LOT to even geo-political discussions.
Don't be shy - speak out!
We have been at that one for a long time. Simply point out all the information FR has provided on Iraq and you will see what the MSM has not covered.
For original content, any FReeper that knows a soldier that has come back from Iraq should get a first hand account from them. Many have stories of all the good the U.S. is doing and that they have been involved with directly.
I say we table the issue of Iraq until Iran and Syria have been dealt with.
There is no doubt that the Socialists 'round the world have somewhat tied America's hands on further pre-emptive action.
No doubt it was their intent from the outset, and in the biased on-going reportage.
The political costs for proceeding in this environment would be enormous.
Yet, many of us know that it must be done.
Perhaps the real lesson is to first destroy old media which does so much to undermine American success and progress.
RatherGate could be just the opportunity to make an example of the costs of helping to incite world hatred against America.
The first thing need to be done is for Bush to all out France by name, which is refusing to provide Nato Troops to train the Itraqi Force. After that, they also need to point out that France is stonewalling the Sudan, and attempts to block the USA from taking actions - again, because it has 'Oil Interests' in that country, as it had in Iraq. The troublemakers should be eliminated first, before re-focus can occur.
Something everybody should know also: France is providing currently weapons to the insurgents, which kill our soldiers.
The Net's already doing their job--we're getting the stories out about Iraq that the MSM refuses to. Part of the problem in Iraq is that the MSM is cheerleading for the terrorists in an effort to disparage an American President they don't like. Shining the Web's White-Hot Spotlight in that direction will disinfect the crime scene and go a long way towards honest discussion on Iraq and what to do there.
France is CONTINUING to provide arms?
Can you provide documentation/links?
Reporting for duty .. on November 3, 2004. :^}
How much has this abuse been invited because of the personalities/values/styles of President Bush, say, in contrast to Clinton?
One thing I do know - Clinton made his 'enemies' pay, and pay dearly.
While I certainly don't condone it, it seems to me that the good nature of President Bush is abused by those critics and weasels who know that they can get away with abusing him with impunity, with no consequences.
Remember my theory about the Arab mind respecting brute power - the exact same truth applies to the Socialist Left.
Yes, it is a testament to the values and good nature of our President that he lets criticism roll off his back.
But that does not endear him to the weasel Left.
I think the best thing President Bush can do to win back the support of the national media and world leaders is to appoint unleash those surrogates who have brute power.
The success of the GOP Convention in large measure was due to the power and ridicule generated by Giuliani and Schwarzenegger.
President Bush needs much, much more of this, year-round, particularly at the UN.
As armchair general, I would cut off sewers, electricity and fresh water to the "no-go zones". Then conduct full body cavity searches to all who evacuated to waiting camps. Finally, go in and kill remaining holdouts.
And, from lessons learned from Kemel Attaturk, I would silence any mullah who preached insurgence.
Oh really. Now that wouldn't be that America is the case of ALL the problems of the world. Or, that because Israel won't lay down ( or better yet get on the box-cars)for the commie/fascist/socialist/ dumb dums in the U.S. , they should be turned on by the world community. Yes all those tired old arguments have been made. The problem with the media types is that The United States (and Israel for a lot longer period) will not turn the other cheek anymore.
The U. N. oh my gawd you have got to be joking. it's one big elitist money grubbing bunch of third worlders. and that includes France.
I disagree the Internet is a much better problem solving tool because it allows many minds to put out their thoughts in the market place of ideas. Where as the old media was a few elites trying to influence local state and world events. and stifling information and communication.
Your model seems to be that it is just reporting facts or information. However it is an exchange of ideas also, a type of electronic brainstorming if you will. The Internet cannot solve problems in and of itself when looking at it as just a means of conveying information, however it is much more efficient in doing so facilitating more ideas and solutions faster then ever before hence is a better tool!
For example the fair tax initiative has been around for decades but was stifled by the old media as just a fringe idea. Now it seems to be gaining momentum through the Internet and talk radio that perhaps it will at least have a chance to be voted on.
So when you say the new media is no better tool then the old unless it is an information based problem it makes no sense to me. Aren't all problems and solutions information based? It appears to be a much better tool empowering the rank and file who were once mostly bystanders to be much more involved in the marketplace of ideas and solutions What am I missing?
MSM doesn't set the agenda.
This isn't where they are, I'm afraid.
Proposed Arab religious leader---
He could start his own brand of moose-limb kool-aid.
Mullahs inciting with impunity is absolutely a root cause of the problem.
Where the hell exactly is the CIA in pre-empting this?
Promote free elections in those local areas that are more amenable to the concept and let them govern themselves, including their own Iraqi security forces. This will do in miniature what the advocated goal is for Iraq as a whole, create more liberal (in the 19th century sense of the word) government amidst a sea of dictators and warlords to act as an example and goal to the rest. Iraq may ultimately split up, but so what? Avoid the splitting up of Iraq is a rather arbitrary goal and only hinders what we are trying to do.
I only suggest using the UN as America's bully pulpit.
Imagine what Giuliani could do there?
We cannot participate weakly, and meekly stand by while Kofi declares our defense 'illegal'.
Let's use it to kick ass, loudly.
Yes, I would agree that Bush's 'turn the other cheek' approach is wearing thin. He needs to continue to speak softly - it's in his nature - but he also needs to go down to The Big Stick Shoppe and make a major purchase.
What do you think of the surrogate approach?
Spineless RINO's won't do, of course.
Another UN point:
The French derived much of their supposed world stature in this forum.
Can we not start to discredit, diminish and undermine the weasels there and elsewhere?
I agree with Inge C that France should be bounced from NATO.
this argument is moot. It is not the way Bush works. Ann richards tried the running around the room hair on fire, personal attack campaign tactics on him. she lost big time. bush is steady, resolute and does not rattle easily. Unlike I might add the skerry dumb dums.
The question is whether this style will lead to the support from the American public and coalition partners for continuing necessary pre-emptions in Iran, North Korea, Syria.
What is the Iraq situation? (Define what we are to work on, first).:)
"Promote free elections in those local areas that are more amenable to the concept and let them govern themselves, including their own Iraqi security forces. This will do in miniature what the advocated goal is for Iraq as a whole .."
I like this idea, reward the behavior you want to encourage.
On a slightly different tack, I think the war effort, and especially the setbacks and difficulties, would be better received if Bush imitated Churchill in the respect of constantly warning of how difficult the road ahead will be, talking frankly about the obstacles, the efforts to frustrate Iraqi freedom by Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and others. Openly accuse the bad guys. Promise to remain steadfast to our friends through thick and thin.
Outrageously high expectations, fueled by the ease of victory over Saddams army, create a climate of public disappointment whenever the inevitable setbacks occur. We need to lower expectations, and get tough.
a. A situation in which national sentiment and world opinion runs counter to the positive results on the ground, thereby diminishing the continuing use of pre-emption;
b. A situation in which terrorists continue to hold sway over some of the Iraqi landscape.
Yup, but the administration must take this into account in their policy making. They can't just wish it were otherwise. It does seem like Bush and his advisors were trying to wage this war based on the election cycle.
Expect him to start.
What is with the attitude? I've read two of your posts so far that have been nasty.
What's your problem?
The GOP desperately needed coherent and organized talking points throughout the last year, and were nearly left defenseless as the bar was defined and raised by the weasel left - delivery of stockpiles of Iraqi WMD, or else.
Now, either the GOP is performing (still) the rope-a-dope of the century and are sitting on WMD stockpiles or equivalent, or more likely they were left with their pants around their ankles and mouths open. And so were we in their defense. The Bush administration completely lost control of the issue in the public domain.
Of course, there were innumerable reasons to take out Saddam irrespective of WMD, but I wonder did this administration get setup?
And how did they permit the 'discovery of WMD stockpiles' to be allowed to judge all measurement of success in Iraq in the first place? And why didn't they change the premise quickly?
The repair of this public relations disaster is going to be slow and ugly, even with a Bush mandate in November.
I still don't believe they've seized control of the issue, particularly on the world stage.
Here's a thought I haven't seen posted yet:
Hillary, 2008. (Sorry, I know it is dinner time for some of you out East...).
If we allow that there will be no last minute bait-and-switch candidacy for Hillary this time, or some other October surprise, then Kerry/Edwards loss puts Hillary on the books as the clear leading 'Rat candidate for '08.
So, what do you imagine will be the strategy to oust the GOP then?
Here's my prediction:
Hillary leads an Iran-Contra style smear attack on the Bush administration in the waning years to weaken the nation's GOP appeal leading into '08. Expect an attempt at an impeachment-equivalent scandal to dominate the headlines.
You heard it here, maybe first...
What to do? How do we prevent it?
Really, the ONLY thing that will help is for mainstream media to continue to be diminished, possibly with our help, in the intervening years.
But the 'Rats, on the other hand, will try to reign in the bloggers and bulletin boards, including Free Republic, to once again regain control of the news Pravda-like.
So we might also look for the 'Rats to seize upon or create a Columbine-style national Internet scandal to falsely trumpet and increase the public's desire for control of this forum. We must be ready well in advance!