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Putin: Ally or Terrorist? (Russian FSB/KGB Real Culprits Behind "Chechen Terrorism")
The New American ^ | February 2002 | William Jasper

Posted on 09/21/2004 8:24:29 PM PDT by GIJoel

Putin: Ally or Terrorist? by William F. Jasper

Counting Vladimir Putin as an ally against terrorism ignores his career in the murderous KGB/FSB and his ongoing support for terrorist regimes and organizations.

‘‘Lena Goncharuk, aged 38, said that she was the only one to survive out of a group of six who were ordered out of the cellar where they had been hiding and shot at point blank range. Resting in her hospital bed, her voice barely rising above a whisper, she said she had survived only by pretending to be dead." So reported Paul Wood from the Chechen border for The Independent of London on February 6, 2000, as "triumphant" Russian troops occupied Grozny, the capital of Chechnya. Wood’s article, entitled "Chechnya’s civilians put to the sword," continued with Mrs. Goncharuk’s story:

"They [the Russian soldiers] were asking for cigarettes, then they asked, ‘Do you have a radio,’ and they said, ‘Give it to us,’" she said, explaining that the four women and two men were sent back down into the cellar after handing over their valuables.

"We hadn’t even sat down," she went on, "then they began throwing grenades into the cellar and shooting. We all were crying and suffocating, the smell was unbearable. We were crying out, we could not see anything but they continued to shoot.

"We said, ‘Guys what are you doing? We are civilians.’ They stopped shooting and they said to come out of the cellar. Our legs and heads were wounded and we could hardly move but we got up, supporting each other.

"The first out were two Russian women, Luda and Natasha. We were standing inside the garage over the cellar and they started shooting at point blank range. The others were twisting in pain.... Natasha was lying dead already....

"There was one old man with us. His head was covered in blood.... Then they started firing again.

"If I had looked up I would have been shot. I opened my eye just a little bit, all I saw was the muzzles of their guns and their boots."

Putin’s "Liberation"

Two hospital beds down from Lena Goncharuk was another victim of the Russian "liberation." Unlike Goncharuk, Hedi Makhauri, a 40-year-old Chechen mother, had not been trapped inside besieged Grozny; along with tens of thousands of other refugees, she had fled to neighboring Ingushetia.

With Russian troops establishing themselves in the capital, and the Russian bombing and shelling apparently over, she had thought it safe to go back and check on her house. Paul Wood’s report briefly recounts her ordeal:

"They said it was a liberated area," she said, frail and thin, clutching her hospital sheet to her chin, telling us that when she got to her street, she and two other Chechen women saw Russian soldiers loading stolen goods from the houses into one of their armoured vehicles.

"They took us to the armoured vehicle and they said to go inside. We were afraid as they put blindfolds on us. We said, ‘Why, we are not criminals, we have just come to see our houses.’ They said it was orders.

"They said they would take us to the police headquarters, but they just took us around the corner. It was just ruins all around. Me and my neighbour were clutching each other’s hand. We said: ‘Why are you taking us here, there are no police here.’ They said: ‘Just wait, they will come.’

"The other woman said, ‘Take whatever you want, we have children, just don’t kill us.’ They made us go into one little room. They just shot her in the head. She didn’t even have time to say, ‘Let me go.’ They just shot her. Hedi said that the Russian soldiers were tugging at the gold ring on her finger.

"It slipped off just as they decided to get a knife to sever her finger and the ring along with it. They also took her ear-rings and her money, 400 roubles, about £8.

"Then they put an old mattress over her body, poured petrol on, and lit it. The mattress was wet and did not catch light, only smouldered as they walked away. If I cried they would have killed me," she said.

"They said it was a liberated area"? Where did Hedi Makhauri and many others less fortunate than her get such calamitous disinformation? Why, from no less an authority than Vladimir Putin, then the acting president of Russia. Mr. Putin appeared on Russian national television on Sunday, February 6, 2000, to announce that the last stronghold of the Chechen "terrorists" in Grozny had been taken and the Russian flag had been hoisted over the smoldering ruins of the capital. "Thus, we can say that the operation to liberate Grozny is over," declared Putin.

The seven-year campaign of genocide against Chechnya has been largely invisible to the outside world. The Russian armed forces and security services have successfully kept most of the Western media and humanitarian-aid organizations out, while, at the same time, preventing refugees from escaping with eye-witness details of the brutal subjugation. "Let us call it by its real name," wrote Boston Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby on October 28, 1999. "What Russia is committing in Chechnya is the mass murder of civilians.... And not only is the West failing to rise up against his [Putin’s] bloodbath, it is actively helping to finance it," directly through U.S. foreign aid to the Russian government, as well as indirectly via the U.S. taxpayer-funded International Monetary Fund.

Convergence Choir

Tragically, far too few of Mr. Jacoby’s colleagues in the Western media have shared his outrage over the ongoing slaughter in Chechnya; the coverage of Putin’s campaign of terror against Chechen civilians has been sporadic and the condemnations tepid. Since the September 11th terrorist attacks, criticism of the Chechen pogrom has all but evaporated, as the Bush administration has rushed to embrace Russia as our valued "ally" in the war on terrorism.

New York Times correspondent Bill Keller typified this response in an October 6th article, in which he stated: "We need the Russians now, as we needed Stalin once, and if that means our president pulls a punch on the subject of the indiscriminate civil carnage in Chechnya, I can live with that; the punch had no muscle behind it anyway." Mr. Keller and other pragmatists of his ilk can apparently "live with" patently immoral policies like genocide, turning a blind eye to the unpleasant bloodletting as long as the perpetrator advances the globalist agenda of East-West convergence.

On November 23rd, the Times offered an even more startling re-evaluation of Russia as NATO’s new partner in the war on terrorism. Aleksandr Rahr, a scholar at the German Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) in Berlin, told the Times: "What changed radically on September 11th was the complete disappearance of Russia as a threat to Europe. It’s completely gone." The German CFR is a sister to the American CFR, this country’s "ruling establishment," and Mr. Rahr was trilling the same convergence theme as his U.S. counterparts. Mr. Rahr, along with other European and American CFR one-worlders, advocates a full, lusty embrace of Russia against our new common enemy.

One of the most enthusiastic advocates of this policy of NATO-Russia embrace is none other than Lord Robertson, the current NATO chief. "We sense very strong indications from President Putin in recent weeks that he wants to change the way that Russia does business," the November 23rd New York Times quoted Robertson as saying. "We take that at face value and we will work on that basis," he continued. "The Russian response to the terrible attacks on the United States," he said, "has … been the reaction of a real and genuine friend." "In the past," said Robertson, "we were divided by walls and fences and by ideology and by armies. Today the threats to the Russian people are very similar, if not exactly the same as, the threats to the people in the NATO countries and the West."

Does Lord Robertson, the head of the West’s military alliance, truly buy the Kremlin line that the pounding of Chechen cities and villages into rubble, the rampant slaughter of civilians, and the driving of hundreds of thousands of refugees into camps, neighboring provinces, and foreign exile are the same as fighting terrorists who carry out acts like the 9-11 Black Tuesday attack? Whether or not he truly believes it, Robertson is definitely retailing that line with a passion. "To utter such nonsense, a top Western official has to be either a closet Communist or one of Lenin’s ‘useful idiots,’" says Christopher Story, editor and publisher of the authoritative London-based Soviet Analyst.

One of the most reliable analysts of Russian affairs and a keen observer of British power politics, Mr. Story clearly believes Robertson to be of the former category. "Look, Robertson was well known in Britain as a former Communist trade union agitator when Tony Blair picked him to be secretary of state for defense," Story told The New American. "Blair is to the left of Clinton and has been clear over in the Kremlin camp all along. The September 11th attacks have given him the opportunity to advance his pro-Moscow agenda while appearing to be pro-military, pro-American, and anti-terrorist." Story points out that when a member of parliament queried the British Fabian Socialist Society concerning charges that certain members of the Blair cabinet were members of the socialist group, the secretary of the Fabian Society publicly confirmed that 20 of Blair’s 23 cabinet officials were indeed members in good standing with the organization. For over a century, notes Story, the Fabians have played a crucial role in implementing Marxist-Leninist policies in the British Commonwealth.

"Lord Robertson the former Communist is quite obviously a continuing covert Communist who is enthusiastically implementing the continuing Soviet strategy against the West — from the highest office in NATO, no less," warns Story. "What makes this even more troubling is that Robertson was appointed NATO secretary-general following Javier Solana, a ‘former’ Spanish Communist, who shared the same love affair with Moscow. Solana has now been transferred to a key position within the European Commission of the EU [European Union], where he and his fellow radicals are working in concert with Robertson, Blair, Germany’s Joschka Fischer, Italy’s Romano Prodi, and other subversives to convert NATO and the EU completely into an oppressive Soviet collective."

The Russians have always been master chess players, reminds Story, and they have been playing the terrorist gambit very successfully. "If the people of the West do not wake up soon to this fact, we will soon be in checkmate," he warns.

Covert Strategy, Deadly Deception

The Russian war against Chechnya is, of course, central to the current U.S.-Russian embrace as allies in the war against terrorism. For the Russians and their CFR apologists in the U.S., it provides an important test of the American public’s gullibility: Can the slaughter in Chechnya credibly be equated to our current war against Osama bin Laden? After all, as the CFR’s Mr. Rahr claims, the Russian threat is "completely gone," and we’re both fighting against Islamic extremists, right? Or as Lord Robertson put it, we both face "very similar, if not exactly the same" threats.

The chess pieces were being positioned to produce American acceptance of this preposterous notion long before the suicide attacks of September 11, 2001. In December 1994, Boris Yeltsin ordered Russian troops, tanks, and air power into Chechnya to fight what he claimed were "terrorists" and "bandits." Soon the term "Islamic extremist" was also being applied to the Chechen opponents. For months the Russian army appeared pathetically inept, demoralized, barbaric, and incapable of subduing the Chechens. However, after grinding much of Chechnya under its tank tracks and killing 100,000 civilians, the Yeltsin regime negotiated an accord to withdraw Russian forces, while negotiations would continue toward a settlement of Chechnya’s status by the end of 2001.

The most penetrating (and what has also proven the most prophetic) analysis of the 1994-96 Russian-Chechnyan War was written in February 1995 as a memo from Soviet defector Anatoliy Golitsyn to CIA Acting Director William O. Studeman. Published in the 1995 edition of Golitsyn’s book The Perestroika Deception, the memo marshaled important evidence and observations supporting the contention that the Chechnyan War was being "deliberately staged largely for Western consumption by the Kremlin strategists in the pursuit of their objectives."

What hidden objectives could the Kremlin strategists advance by a controlled operation that showed the Russian military performing so poorly and the Russian military leaders quarreling amongst themselves? Mr. Golitsyn, himself a former elite KGB operative amongst the Kremlin strategists, listed many important objectives, including:

• The Russian military bungling was intended to "demonstrate that it can be discounted as a serious military adversary for the foreseeable future."

• This message was "intended to influence US Congressional debate on the subject of Russia’s military potential and the size of US forces required to maintain a balance with it."

• The message could "also be used as a pretext for deepening the partnership between the US and Russian armed forces by seeking American advice and help in ‘reforming,’ reorganizing and retraining the Russian army in order to enable it to serve a ‘democratic’ system."

• The Chechnyan events also "enabled the Russians to play especially on European fears of destabilization in Russia" and "injected a further boost to the European desire for partnership with the ‘democratic forces’ in Russia."

• This partnership would lead to "entry into European institutions" and then "East European and eventually Russian involvement in NATO."

As usual, Mr. Golitsyn’s cogent analysis has proven prescient as well; all of the above objectives, and others he mentioned, have been advanced on the Russian chessboard — to a frightful degree. And, as usual, Golitsyn’s warnings and analyses have been ignored and supressed by the CFR insiders dominating U.S. policy-making positions, Establishment think tanks, and the press. (See the sidebar.)

Russia’s New Front Man

Mr. Golitsyn suggested that the Chechnyan "crisis" might be "a possible planned prelude to a change of government," replacing the spent Yeltsin team with a new set of rotating faces. "Since an outright military or nationalist government [in Russia] might prejudice the flow of Western aid and the continued ‘cooperation’ with the West which furthers the strategists’ interests," he said, it is likely that the Kremlin strategists wielding the real power behind the scenes would replace Yeltsin with a team comprised of a tough new president and a "reformist" prime minister. "The President would be presented as a guarantee of Russian stability while the Prime Minister’s task would be to ensure the continued flow of Western aid and the continuation of cooperative operations."

Enter Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, the Russian "hero" of the Chechnyan pogrom. President Putin, the current player sitting in the Kremlin’s big chair, may seem in charge of moving the Russian pieces around the board, says Christopher Story, but he is merely the current front man for the covert Communist leadership collective that has continued to rule Russia since the Soviet Union’s supposed collapse. Mr. Story is perhaps the world’s leading proponent of Golitsyn’s thesis that the "Soviet collapse" was a controlled deception, planned many years in advance, for long-range strategic purposes.

Mr. Story, whose publications have closely tracked developments in Chechnya as well as the rise of Putin’s star, derides the government and media experts for falling all over themselves to come up with explanations for Putin’s meteoric rise. "Vladimir Putin has been a lifelong Communist and asset of Soviet intelligence," first of the KGB, and then of the GRU, Soviet military intelligence, he told The New American. "And the Chechnyan ‘crisis’ that raised him to the national and world stages has been completely an operation of the successor Russian intelligence services. If you follow the Russian-Chechnyan events and Putin’s career it’s very clear that he was hand-picked by the Kremlin strategists for his current role."

Shooting Putin to prominence was a spectacular string of 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and other Russian cities that left hundreds dead. Yeltsin had appointed Putin prime minister, after serving a stint as head of the FSB, the current acronym for the KGB. Putin then strode on the scene vowing to bring the terrorists to justice. He quickly identified the perpetrators as Islamic extremists from Chechnya and soon launched a new massive invasion reducing Grozny to ashes and corpses. Heralded by the KGB/FSB-directed government organs and media as the strong man who had redeemed Russia’s honor from the ignominy of the 1994-1996 Chechnyan War and ended the terror bombings, Putin was elected "president" in March 2000.

USA Today reported on March 27, 2000 that Putin’s win "capped an incredible rise to power by a man who had never before stood for election." The Los Angeles Times reported that prior to his victory over the Chechens, "few thought the mousy, soft-spoken former spy could convince a majority of voters to elect him president."

Christopher Story has pointed out that Putin was able to solve the terrorist bombings "because they were very simply provocations perpetrated by covert Soviet intelligence operatives to provide Moscow with a pretext for an official re-entry into Chechnya. I say ‘official’ because Russia never really relinquished control when it supposedly left in 1996." Other analysts, investigators, and reporters around the world have reached some of the same conclusions. Many major mainstream media organs have acknowledged that the Putin regime has produced no evidence substantiating that Chechens were behind the Moscow bombings. Moreover, it has been fairly widely reported that strong evidence indicates that the FSB actually perpetrated the bombings. Many news groups have reported that after the fourth major bombing in September 1999, local police foiled a fifth bombing when they arrested terrorists planting explosives in another apartment complex. The terrorists turned out to be FSB agents.

According to Soviet Analyst, the Russians did not merely seize an opportunity (the 9-11 attacks) that happened to coincide with their long-range objectives; Putin and associates actually planned and carried out the terrorist deed using assets connected to bin Laden in Chechnya. The publication, which, like Anatoliy Golitsyn, can boast an uncanny accuracy on major Russian developments unmatched by the media-anointed Russian experts, has pointed out a number of important facts that support this theory. Among them:

• Land-locked Chechnya has long been one of the most completely controlled areas of the former Soviet Union, surrounded by Russia and Georgia, run by the faithful Communist Edward Shevardnadze. It is thus one of the safest venues to carry out a false Islamic revolt.

• The huge Soviet strategic military base and air base at Mozdok near Ingushetia has been using Chechnya as a "live warfare" laboratory and training ground, preparing for further strategic warfare in the region.

• The Chechen opposition has been completely controlled and compromised with false leadership, notably, with the likes of Djokhar Dudayev, a former Soviet air force general, accepted by Moscow as the representative voice of Chechen independence.

• The Russian armed forces and security services repeatedly released their controlled Chechen opposition, or allowed them to escape, to carry out repeated provocations.

• During the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, an estimated 50,000 young Afghan males were removed from Afghanistan and transferred to terrorist training camps in Chechnya, Tajikistan, and elsewhere — to be filtered back in subsequent years as fighters in the ranks of the Taliban, al-Qaeda, and the Northern Alliance.

• Utilizing its client regimes in Iran, Sudan, Iraq, and elsewhere in the Middle East, Russia has supported the "Islamic" terror network while making it appear that it is itself under assault from "Muslim extremists."

As usual, says Christopher Story, the Communist strategists in Moscow have used the "principle of reversal," lying audaciously about the true situation in Chechnya. "Putin’s claims that Russia is under attack from bin Laden’s forces, just like the U.S., is a complete reversal of the truth," he says. In reality, he notes, "the evidence is far more persuasive that his al-Qaeda contacts in Chechnya and neighboring areas have been used to coordinate provocations that will provide the image of a common enemy." If this analysis is correct, and it appears to be, then the United States and the West have embraced as allies in the war on terrorism the engineers and perpetrators of the global terror offensive.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Predictions of an Ex-KGB Agent by William F. Jasper

Soviet defector Anatoliy Golitsyn predicted the rise of a false Soviet reformer like Gorbachev, the removal of the Berlin Wall, the unification of Germany, and the restructuring of NATO.

In 1961, in a dramatic escape under cover of a blinding snow storm, a major in the Soviet KGB defected to the United States. He was no ordinary KGB agent; he was an elite officer working within the "inner KGB" — a super-secret strategic planning department that plotted long-term Soviet strategy against the West. He is probably the most important Soviet defector ever to have reached the West. His name is Anatoliy Golitsyn.

Golitsyn warned that KGB moles had penetrated the CIA and virtually all other Western intelligence services and that many defectors were actually double agents feeding strategic disinformation to the West. For more than four decades, Golitsyn has been providing methodical analysis of developments in the Soviet Union and of Russian initiatives and operations throughout the world that has proven uniquely accurate. He has been explaining patiently that the Communist strategists who ran the Soviet Union continue to run Russia today. Following Leninist strategic principles, they are engaged in a deadly long-term war against the West. Foremost among their objectives is to convince Western leaders that Soviet Communism has collapsed and represents no further threat to the world.

Golitsyn’s amazingly prophetic book, New Lies for Old, was published in 1984. His main predictions included details of the forthcoming false liberalization of the whole of Eastern Europe, followed by similar developments in the Soviet Union. He predicted the rise of a false Soviet reformer like Gorbachev, the removal of the Berlin Wall, the unification of Germany, and the restructuring (if not abolition) of NATO. He even went so far as to specify that a "Break with the Past" process would start in East Germany, with the opening of its borders — as it turned out, to neighboring Communist countries. That was very remarkable: Golitsyn knew that the process would start in East Germany, and it did.

Author Mark Riebling, in his important 1994 book entitled Wedge: The Secret War between the FBI and CIA, conducted a careful analysis of Golitsyn’s predictions in New Lies for Old. He found that out of a total of 148 predictions, 139 had been verified by 1993 — "an accuracy rating of 94%." No other Soviet expert even comes close. Golitsyn’s 1995 book, The Perestroika Deception, continuing in the same tradition, offers unparalleled information and insight. Our leaders continue ignoring his proven wisdom to our own great peril.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Russia
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To: John Valentine

Valentine,

How could you possibly campare the nutjobs that think that GW Bush was behind 9/11 to people who cite evidence that the murderous KGB/FSB are still busy killing their own people???!!!...the Soviets deliberately murdered over 30 million of their own people, and that's the low estimate. Putin is one of them, and now he presides over "Russia."


51 posted on 09/21/2004 10:09:47 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Fine. So I disagree with Bush. He's not disagreeing very loudly, if you'll notice, just as he doesn't "condemn" Sharon very loudly either. Some of that is just for show.

Who are we to tell Putin how to deal with his local terrorists?

52 posted on 09/21/2004 10:09:56 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

My point, Luis, was that such things are not relevant. They are absurd, and I was trying to draw your attention to that fact.

Do you think that Putin intentionally set up those kids in Beslan, then sent in the Spetznaz trops to kill them?

If that's what you think, and it seems to me that is what you are saying, then you are a certifiable loon.


53 posted on 09/21/2004 10:10:03 PM PDT by John Valentine ("The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein)
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To: sinkspur

So now you're also saying that the Clinton administration and Janet Reno did not kill those kids in Waco?


54 posted on 09/21/2004 10:10:35 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Did he or did he not order the actions that killed the people in the Moscow theater?

Yes. Bush is commanding a military operation against insurgents that kills innocent people every day. So?

55 posted on 09/21/2004 10:11:33 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: John Valentine

I never claimed that he set them up. I believe that just like the Moscow theater, a deliberate calculation was made, and lives became expendable.

Since then, this issue has become Putin's Reichstag fire.


56 posted on 09/21/2004 10:12:28 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: John Valentine

Valentine,

Why are you here then. Go bury your head in the sand somewhere else.


57 posted on 09/21/2004 10:12:56 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: sinkspur
"Yes. Bush is commanding a military operation against insurgents that kills innocent people every day. So?"

Our people?

58 posted on 09/21/2004 10:13:08 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
They didn't kill them, no. David Koresh set those fires.

And I'm not going to argue with you about Waco.

In fact, I'm done arguing. It's clear you think Putin should not be dealing with terrorism. Why, I don't know.

59 posted on 09/21/2004 10:13:42 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Good night, Luis.


60 posted on 09/21/2004 10:14:37 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: sinkspur

No, that's an assumption in your part.

And no, Koresh did not set those fires, Janet Reno's tank and Janet Reno's gass did.

Putin's war against Chechnya has created an entire army of terrorists that now have to be dealt with, but continued bombing and more atrocities by the Russians will do little more than create even more terrorists.

Putin needs to wage war or Chechen terrorists, and not on Chechen civilians.

Again...Russians have been killing Chechens for over four centuries, but you think that has nothing to do with this conflict?


61 posted on 09/21/2004 10:17:55 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Askel5

Looks like you were right and I was wrong.


62 posted on 09/21/2004 10:17:58 PM PDT by nunya bidness (There's no peaceful way to get rid of the governments that abuse the rights of people - PJ O'Rourke)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

God forbid that we ever have a situation like the Moscow theater or the Beslan school in the United States.

I'll guarantee that we would also have similar loss of life.

And I will never stoop to the despicable level of blaming the heroes. I know who is to blame for both Beslan and the Moscow theater atrocities, and they are all Chechens.

Let's start with Mashkadov. Then we can go on to Shamil Besayev. Are you claiming that these are KGB (sic) operatives? Or that they are in the pay of Putin?

I don't happen to think that Putin is making a smart move with his pulling power to the center. It's not going to work and is anti-democratic. But to go from there to laying blame at his feet for things that properly belong at the feet of Mashkadov and Besayev is just- well, it's despicable.


63 posted on 09/21/2004 10:18:28 PM PDT by John Valentine ("The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Luis, did you check out the links I mentioned above (We Are The Next Target and Terrorists In Muslim Disguise)? I wouldn't bother with these guys, their minds are made up. Don't worry, as world events unfold, they will become painfully aware of their muddled opinions.


64 posted on 09/21/2004 10:20:09 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: GIJoel

I'm here to speak for the sane. And, I have been doing so for quite a few years. I'm not going to be run off the block.


65 posted on 09/21/2004 10:21:16 PM PDT by John Valentine ("The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein)
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To: John Valentine
"My point, Luis, was that such things are not relevant."

So, what you're saying is that if Heinrich Himmler had been elected Germany's president a dozen years after the fall of the Third Reich, and then proceeded to fill the highest political posts in Germany with his SS cromies, suspended elections, and sought to cement himself into power by extending his term in office, that would be irrelevant to the world?

66 posted on 09/21/2004 10:22:09 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Valentine would point to the marvelous efficiency of Himmler's rail system.


67 posted on 09/21/2004 10:24:56 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: GIJoel

Notice that here too, we need to take away the oil weapon and are not doing so. Such leadership!


68 posted on 09/21/2004 10:27:41 PM PDT by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: John Valentine

People in this forum get pissed off at Bush for not doing things like blowing up a mosque where Al Sadr's (sp) militia are holed up.

He doesn't send the order in because while the short term results would be satisfactory, the long-term effects of blowing up mosques would be disastrous.

When Bush warned us that this would be a war unlike any war we've ever seen, and that it would be a long and difficult one, he wasn't simply engaging in rhetorical claptrap.

Putin needs to fight this war the same exact way that Bush is fighting it, with minimal loss of civilian life. Right now, in Chechnya, Putin has been fighting it in exactly the opposite manner.


69 posted on 09/21/2004 10:27:44 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Luis,

Putin is arming and training the terrorists. Indeed, he was even arming and training Saddam's troops all the way up to, and during, Operation Iraqi Freedom.


70 posted on 09/21/2004 10:31:31 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: Luis Gonzalez

My, my. You are given to hyperbole, aren't you?

You seem to be confusing Vladimir Putin and Laventi Beria.

Putin had nothing to do with the gulags, the pogroms, the purges, or the deportations of the 1930's and 1940's.

Putin's culpability is more or less equivalent to George H.W. Bush. Now, you are going to go off into some fugue about how I am spouting some sort of moral equivalcy between communism and free enterprise.

PLEASE. Don't insult my intelligence. I am making no such claim. Communism is inherently stupid and evil. It's no good even in theory, and in practice it's even worse.

But by the time Putin ascended to the top of the KGB, it was a shadow of what it once was. Putin was and is a bureaucrat, not a mass murderer like Beria.

Look, it's just a waste of time discussing things with you. You haven't a good knowledge of history, first of all, and besides, your grip on present reality isn't all that solid either.

I have better things to do that waste my time here further.


71 posted on 09/21/2004 10:32:07 PM PDT by John Valentine ("The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein)
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To: John Valentine

Finally!


72 posted on 09/21/2004 10:33:32 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: John Valentine
"Look, it's just a waste of time discussing things with you. You haven't a good knowledge of history, first of all, and besides, your grip on present reality isn't all that solid either."

Typical response.

73 posted on 09/21/2004 10:34:03 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Luis, check out the threads I mentioned above. BTW, good job!


74 posted on 09/21/2004 10:35:47 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: John Valentine
"Putin had nothing to do with the gulags, the pogroms, the purges, or the deportations of the 1930's and 1940's."

And of course, he is not responsible for the deaths of close to 200,000 Chechens at the hands of the Russian Army since taking power.

A mere lightweight.

75 posted on 09/21/2004 10:37:30 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: GIJoel
Will do.

Look for a thread called "No Peter the Great"

76 posted on 09/21/2004 10:39:12 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: GIJoel

hmmm. Putin is a terrorist, source the New American.

Sounds scary. But sounds familiar. Sounds like the propaganda that was out about Bush being behind 9-11-01.

Bush? Oh yeah. Didn't he make the New American too? Sounds like an agenda to me

http://web.archive.org/web/20031003030411/http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2003/06-02-2003/vo19no11_aids.htm

Vol. 19, No. 11
June 2, 2003
Table of Contents More on the United Nations


Global AIDS Con Game
by William F. Jasper

President Bush’s new global AIDS initiative will provide a massive infusion of funds to UN affiliates that may be responsible for spreading the AIDS epidemic.

Hundreds of lawmakers, cabinet officials, foreign dignitaries, and news correspondents packed into the East Room of the White House on April 29th. They had come to witness the launch of another global crusade against another momentous crisis. "Time is not on our side," President Bush urgently declared. "So I ask Congress to move forward with [the] speed and seriousness this crisis requires." And the seriousness of the crisis, the president averred, requires an immediate deployment of billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars, in an ongoing foreign aid program. What is this crisis? The president explained:

HIV/AIDS is a tragedy for millions of men, women and children, and a threat to stability of entire countries and of regions of our world. Our nations have the ability and, therefore, the duty to confront this grave public health crisis. We are here today to urge both Houses of the United States Congress to pass the emergency plan for AIDS relief, which will dramatically expand our fight against AIDS across this globe.

"Fighting AIDS on a global scale is a massive and complicated undertaking," President Bush proclaimed. "Yet, this cause is rooted in the simplest of moral duties." Thus, the president exhorted Congress to move quickly on his five-year, $15 billion global AIDS initiative.

Once again, George Bush has out-Clintoned Bill Clinton. The Clinton-Gore team (or any other Democrat-controlled White House, for that matter) could not have come close to getting most congressmen behind such an enormous and outrageous pro-abortion, anti-family foreign aid scheme. But with the Bush White House fervently supporting this UN boondoggle and providing cover, congressional Republicans jumped on board the global gravy train, eager to burnish their compassion credentials. On May 1st, 183 Republicans joined 191 Democrats to pass H.R. 1298, the United States Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, Tuberculosis, and Malaria Act, by a vote of 375 to 41. (Forty Republicans and one Democrat — Gene Taylor of Mississippi — stood on principle and voted against this unconstitutional, immoral measure.)

As we write, the Senate version is reportedly heading toward passage, with congressional leaders eager to meet White House demands that the final legislation be ready for the president’s signature by Memorial Day.

Another Leftist Triumph

Yes, the AIDS pandemic is a terrible tragedy. Will this new legislation and the vast rivers of funds it releases provide the relief, cures, and solutions that its champions claim? Unfortunately not. In fact, it is virtually certain that it will fail in these stated objectives — while succeeding fabulously in its real objectives: empowering a vast new UN bureaucracy and advancing the radical population control schemes of the one-world elite. Here is the blunt, unvarnished truth about the Bush AIDS initiative:

• It is the creation of the most extreme-left, pro-abortion forces in Congress (e.g., Senators Teddy Kennedy and Joseph Biden, and Reps. Barbara Lee and Tom Lantos, to name a few), together with UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, and World Health Organization and World Bank officials.

• It will pour billions of dollars into the personal bank accounts of African dictators, corrupt officials, and regimes allied to terrorist organizations.

• It will pour billions of dollars into the coffers of dramatically expanded UN agencies and NGOs that have accumulated atrocious records for promoting abortion, coercive sterilization, and sex-ed programs encouraging promiscuity and homosexuality.

• It will actually accelerate the spread of AIDS and other sexually transmitted and infectious diseases by funding "family planning" and "reproductive rights" programs that are already responsible, as recent studies show, for much of the AIDS pandemic in Africa (see sidebar on page 21).

In short, President Bush’s AIDS initiative is a colossal betrayal of the pro-life, pro-family principles he claims to embrace. It is also a betrayal of his most loyal core constituency, far too many of whom continue to believe, against all evidence to the contrary, the president’s empty pro-life rhetoric.

To get some idea of the truly radical scope of the president’s AIDS program, consider the following statement from Rep. Tom Lantos (D-Calif.), one of the most extreme pro-abortion, pro-homosexual activists in Congress, on April 2, 2003:

Today’s mark-up is truly historic. This morning we are considering perhaps the most ambitious piece of legislation in this Committee’s long history. The $15 billion authorized in the "United States Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria Act of 2003" is an enormous sum by any measure. It is five times — I repeat, five times — the amount we considered authorizing for this cause just last year. For those of us who have long called for a real commitment of resources to address the HIV/AIDS crisis, our day has arrived.

The day of the Clintonite radicals has indeed arrived — under a Republican president and a Republican Congress. One month after Rep. Lantos’ jubilant remarks, his militant comrade-at-arms, Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.), offered a similar, triumphant toast. An official press release, issued by Rep. Lee’s office on May 1st, stated:

"I am pleased that the House has passed this truly historic legislation," said Lee, who has worked many years on both international and domestic HIV/AIDS funding. "This bill gives us the opportunity to care for a significant number of individuals who are suffering from HIV/AIDS and also works toward preventing millions more from being victimized by this deadly disease."

As already mentioned, this "truly historic legislation" will not save millions of lives from the AIDS scourge, the claims of Lee and her cohorts notwithstanding. But it will do much to advance some very subversive agendas. And when it comes to Rep. Lee, one of the most overtly subversive members of Congress, as well as one of the principal architects of H.R. 1298, it is essential to be aware of those agendas.

This is the same Rep. Barbara Lee, recall, who was assistant and understudy to militantly pro-Communist Rep. Ron Dellums. In addition, she has traveled to Grenada to coordinate activities with the Castroite Politburo of that Communist regime; she has been a top official for the past decade of the Communist Party splinter faction known as the Committees of Correspondence; and she co-chairs the radical Progressive Caucus and formerly chaired the extreme-left Congressional Black Caucus.

The same press release issued by Rep. Lee’s office on May 1st stated:

Lee and the bill’s other sponsors defeated a number of amendments that attempted to weaken the bill.... In spite of the victory, Lee expressed disappointment that social conservatives passed an amendment calling for one-third of the bill’s future prevention funding to be specifically designated for abstinence [education] programs, instead of leaving appropriations decisions to be made by experts in the field. "We will fight to remove this provision in the final version of the bill," said Lee. "We negotiated in good faith, only to have the Republicans and the White House push for this amendment. I am very disturbed that they politicized our efforts to address this humanitarian crisis."

Reps. Lee and Lantos are not really all that worried; they know the abstinence amendment was largely cosmetic, intended to give Republicans a phony "victory" they could crow about to placate their pro-life constituents. Even if the abstinence amendment survives in the final bill, there is little likelihood that Congress or the Bush administration (or any future administration) will monitor and enforce its far-flung global programs any more vigorously and efficiently than they do the numerous foreign aid programs that already exist.

When President Bush and his congressional allies began touting their new AIDS hobbyhorse in January, they assured social conservatives that the program would be based on a proven "ABC" approach that stresses behavioral change, with "A" for abstinence, "B" for be faithful, and "C" for using condoms — when appropriate. But it soon became apparent that "Abstinence, Be faithful, and Condoms" would be replaced by "Abortion, Be tolerant, and Condoms galore."

On February 16th, the Los Angeles Times reported: "In a major policy shift, President Bush has decided to allow social service agencies in Africa and the Caribbean to receive U.S. funds under his $15 billion emergency AIDS relief plan even if they promote family planning and provide abortions, White House officials said."

The Times report and other similar signals caused some of the president’s mesmerized pro-life followers to snap out of their dream worlds. The February 2003 Ryan Report of the American Life League (ALL), for instance, reported that Bush’s about-face on the AIDS issue "shocked members of the pro-life community who thought they had a friend in George Bush."

"This is an outrage!" the ALL Ryan Report went on to protest. "Bush’s decision will certainly make Planned Parenthood happy. In fact it came in the midst of Planned Parenthood’s National Condom Week (February 14-21) while Planned Parenthood was asking its supporters to send a condom to Africa in the president’s name via its website. Planned Parenthood’s claim on that website that Bush is anti-condom certainly does not seem to apply to Bush’s AIDS initiative."

Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) was one of the 41 House members who voted against H.R. 1298 on May 1st. "The supposedly conservative Congress overwhelmingly passed a foreign aid bill that could have come straight from the desk of the most liberal Democrat," Rep. Paul said in a blistering statement issued by his office on May 5th. "The legislation sends $15 billion of your tax dollars to Africa, ostensibly to fight AIDS by distributing condoms, providing sex education, and funding abortion providers."

The Texas physician, who has a solid pro-life voting record, continued:

Sadly, this $15 billion expenditure comes even as Congress is cutting funding for veterans by roughly the same amount. The Treasury is running record deficits, the Pentagon is engaged in enormously expensive wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and veterans’ programs are badly underfunded — yet still Congress is sending billions overseas for yet another dubious and unconstitutional program. This should anger every American who still believes in the true conservative tenets of limited government, fiscal restraint, and private charity instead of social welfare programs.

But most of the pro-life community remain in denial, preferring to believe that the president’s promises of commitment to the unborn mean more than his actions that clearly indicate the opposite intent. The Republican leadership in Congress has aided and abetted the White House in this deception. This includes GOP stars who have built reputations as right-to-life champions.

The lead Judas goat in the AIDS sham has been Rep. Henry Hyde (R-Ill.), chairman of the House International Relations Committee and the principal sponsor of the Bush AIDS initiative. Chairman Hyde issued a statement for the committee on May 1st, declaring that H.R. 1298 "is an unprecedented bipartisan initiative that will lead the way for increased U.S. engagement and leadership to contain the spread of the pandemic, and ultimately to arrest AIDS as a threat to economic and national security." Echoing the White House, Chairman Hyde’s release stated that "AIDS threatens the political, social and economic stability of the world, a danger that grows with each passing year."

Pratt House Genesis

Again, the Republicans were stealing a page from Team Clinton’s playbook. But the Clinton playbook didn’t really originate in the Clinton White House; it came from the Pratt House, New York headquarters of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). The genesis and development of what is now the Bush global AIDS program can be traced in dozens of task force reports and round-table discussions sponsored over the past decade by the CFR, as well as articles from the CFR’s journal Foreign Affairs.

Consider, for example, the November/December 2000 Foreign Affairs article entitled "A Foreign Policy for the Global Age," by Clinton National Security Adviser Samuel R. Berger. In this piece, Mr. Berger (a CFR member) writes:

Finally, we have made the fight against deadly infectious diseases a national security priority. Some may think this goal stretches the definition of national security, but a problem that kills huge numbers, crosses borders, and threatens to destabilize whole regions is the very definition of a national security threat.... President Clinton made this issue a centerpiece of his last G-8 summit, but this challenge will call for even greater resources and attention in the future.

Team Bush has been more than willing to accommodate the AIDS expansion called for in this "centerpiece" initiated by Team Clinton. Why is this so? Because, party labels aside, the Clinton and Bush administrations, like the administrations preceding them back to the time of Franklin D. Roosevelt, are merely ball carriers for the organized one-worlders, who are most visibly represented at the CFR.


Senator Barry Goldwater described this subversive Pratt House influence in his 1979 book, With No Apologies. "When we change presidents," the senator wrote, "it is understood to mean that the voters are ordering a change in national policy. Since 1945, three different Republicans have occupied the White House for 16 years and four Democrats have held this most powerful post for 17 years." But even though the party labels of the men in the Oval Office during those years flipped back and forth, he noted, the CFR members in our government continued the same destructive policies from one administration to another.

Senator Goldwater observed: "There has been a great turnover in personnel, but no change in policy. Example: During the Nixon years, Henry Kissinger, a council member and Nelson Rockefeller protégé, was in charge of foreign policy. When Jimmy Carter was elected, Kissinger was replaced by Zbigniew Brzezinski, a council member and David Rockefeller protégé."

So it has continued to the present. CFR member Samuel Berger has been replaced in the National Security Adviser slot by Condoleezza Rice (CFR). Likewise, hundreds of other "liberal Democrat" CFR members in the top echelons of the Clinton administration have been replaced by hundreds of "conservative Republican" CFR members in the Bush administration. And that administration is giving full-throttle support to the CFR’s one-world, anti-Christian agenda. Leaders of conservative, pro-life, pro-family, and Christian organizations who refuse to acknowledge this readily apparent fact are actually advancing this same agenda and assisting those destroying our civilization.


77 posted on 09/21/2004 10:40:23 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: GIJoel

for later when I have more time to read....like after I retire in 15 years. ;) You sure have long articles. ;)


78 posted on 09/21/2004 10:43:42 PM PDT by Chani
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To: Calpernia

Calpernia,

You obviously didn't read what I wrote above. Speaking of AIDS, you should check out www.Duesberg.com. Read the contents of the site carefully, you might learn something.


79 posted on 09/21/2004 10:45:20 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: Calpernia
"Sounds scary. But sounds familiar. Sounds like the propaganda that was out about Bush being behind 9-11-01."

So, you too are drawing moral equivalency between the President of the United States, and the ex-head f the Soviet KGB, now president of Russia?

80 posted on 09/21/2004 10:50:50 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

No. Drawing moral equivalency of propaganda and agendas.

Have a nice night :)


81 posted on 09/21/2004 10:54:21 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Luis, if you would be so kind as to reply, did you have a chance to take a look at the threads I mentioned above??? Please read them and get back to me when you get the chance. Thanks.


82 posted on 09/21/2004 10:57:45 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: Luis Gonzalez

.


83 posted on 09/21/2004 11:03:52 PM PDT by Bayou City (Texas Dem's are going down...Big Time!)
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To: jess35
This reminds me of the cries of "The Jews are responsible" leveled by some of the lunatic fringe following the world trade center attacks.

Exactly what I said about the same last thread like this one.

84 posted on 09/21/2004 11:07:02 PM PDT by MarMema (next year in constantinople!)
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To: Calpernia

Well, liberal, anti-American editorial boards such as The Guardian UK are in favor of Putin's rollback of Democracy in Russia, Al Gore supports Putin's centralization of power, Justin Raimondo does as well.

Meanwhile, the WSJ, The Weekly Standard, and National Review have expressed concerns over Putin.

Take a side.


85 posted on 09/21/2004 11:08:21 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
My side sees ozone in your future.


86 posted on 09/21/2004 11:10:31 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: GIJoel

They're here!


87 posted on 09/21/2004 11:10:53 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Calpernia

Are you threatening me newbie?


88 posted on 09/21/2004 11:11:52 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Threat? I don't threat. I stand my ground.


89 posted on 09/21/2004 11:17:29 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: GIJoel
"We regret that the western governments fail to see that it is Russian governmental structures that organize these terrorist acts and that it is Russian agents that carry out these terrorist acts. There is a plenty of evidence to this."
everyone is entitled to their opinion and a right to interpret facts as they see them. here's mine:

vladmir putin did not structure and organize the murder of hundreds of little kids, in the MOSTLY Russian Orthodox section of Russia. And anybody who thinks so, is in MY opinion, nuttier than a fruit cake with extra walnuts.

90 posted on 09/21/2004 11:19:09 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2 (the madridification of our election is now officially underway.)
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To: All

91 posted on 09/21/2004 11:20:48 PM PDT by MarMema (next year in constantinople!)
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To: MarMema

Does the Marxist agenda allow Haldol?


92 posted on 09/21/2004 11:23:34 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: John Valentine

The Moscow Theatre talking point came from here: http://www.marxist.com/Russia/moscow_chechen_attack.html

Talking point central.


93 posted on 09/21/2004 11:24:40 PM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Not sure what to make of your post. Let me know if you read the threads I mentioned. As I said before, good job in here.


94 posted on 09/21/2004 11:26:36 PM PDT by GIJoel
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To: GIJoel
It's difficult to know what to believe in articles like this because so few of the assertions are actually verified with hard facts. But I have a few comments:

1. Newspaper stories from Chechneya are not the basis for NATO's evaluation of Russian military strength. That kind of evaluation is based on a multitude of hard evidence such as satellite recon photos, eyewitness accounts from inside Russia, communications intercepts, etc.

2. Be wary of people who use historical data to promote great predictors of the future. You see this done all the time by people who are selling something, and usually they are distorting and carefully selecting their facts to "fit" history into the predictions somebody made years before.

3. Several other Russian defectors have written a number of highly alarmist books which sell reasonably well to hard line anti-Soviets in the West. They make good money form their writing but many of their predictions and warnings prove to be false.

4. The CFR is not a far left organization. There's another think tank in D.C. that is almost a Soviet front group but its name escapes me.

5. The story I read about the FSB getting caught bombing an apartment building went something like this--a building manager catches an FSB agent leaving the basement where a bomb has been planted. The building manager questions the FSB agent about what he's doing there, then the agent gives him a business card with a phone number that the local police traced back to an FSB office in the Moscow area. Now if this story is true, the FSB hardly looks like the master chess players that this author portrays them to be. They look more like keystone cops. So either this apartment bombing story is a fabrication or the FSB/KGB is not so brilliant after all.

95 posted on 09/21/2004 11:28:35 PM PDT by carl in alaska (Throw deep........you're already in the fourth quarter.)
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To: Calpernia
"I stand my ground."

Pssst, kid...there's no "ground", this is the Internet, so you can go ahead and drop the Scarlet Pimpernel act.

Putin's KGB is reshaping Russia into something similar to the Soviet Union of old, taking power, and organizing its armies; the Kremlin is reverting to old form right in front of everyone's eyes.

And there's no way that's a good turn of events for the U.S.

Totalitarianism back in Russia doesn't give us an ally in the war on terror, it adds an enemy.

96 posted on 09/21/2004 11:44:50 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Calpernia

I don't know, but at this rate I hope Free Republic can hand it out. Otherwise a really good forum is going to sink into the gutter.


97 posted on 09/22/2004 12:35:29 AM PDT by MarMema (next year in constantinople!)
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To: GIJoel
Alright I read them. It tells me Russia is backing some of the Arab states and selling them arms and ammunition.So what? Most everybody in the world knows that.

What you are saying is because they do that they [Russia] is calling all the shots and telling them what to do.Well I got news for you.Lots of other nations like France and Germany supply them with arms and planes . Are they controlling them to.

Here's another hint. Nobody is anywhere near as responsible for the present power of the PLO and Yassar Arafat as the is United States .

He was on his last leg with about sixty thugs when Bill Clinton dug him up and installed him in the west bank. Since then we have poured millions of US dollars in his pockets and made him what he is today.

We have provide over 70% of the funding for the 18 refugee camps that are home to his constituents since 1948.

Since nobody has put near the money in the Arabs pocket or the PLO pockets as we have I guess we are really behind all these terrorist attacks around the world even the ones against the US.

I guess we ordered them to make all these attacks against us so we could then have an excuse to go and attack them so we could get control of the oil and establish the New World Order. Yep. Now I understand.

Come on man, you seem to be an intelligent sincere person. Get your head out of the book and open your eyes to what these people are doing and not what they are saying. You are lost in your conspiracy theory.

It's like Jeffery Dalmer[spelling?] has got you bent over and all you're thinking about is who gave him your address.

All these nations have supplied these people with money or arms at different times and for different reasons.

But it is still the Muslims who are picking the targets, pulling the triggers and advancing their goals .

98 posted on 09/22/2004 12:37:51 AM PDT by mississippi red-neck
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To: mississippi red-neck
Red-neck, are you reading the same articles I posted on those two threads. If you did, then there is something within your soul that rises up and overwhelms the facts. Your list of cause and effect is not a list of cause and effect at all. I'm too tired to dissect your post right now, but somewhere along the line you switched channels. If you want to comment on a new "station," please tell me what your (heart and mind) is listening to, but don't confuse what is constantly playing in your mind with "We Are The Next Target" and "Muslims In Terrorist Disguise." In other words, forget what you think you know for the moment and be willing to travel a different path. You can always go back to where you started if the trail makes you feel uncomfortable.
99 posted on 09/22/2004 12:55:46 AM PDT by GIJoel
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To: GIJoel

Absolute unmitigated, knee-deep bull$hit!

And, I suppose, Bush was the eeeeevil mastermind behind 911, also.

Boob!


100 posted on 09/22/2004 7:22:05 AM PDT by broadsword (Weren't there a couple of giant Buddhist statues in Afghanistan? What happened to them?)
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