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Measure could block Kennewick Man study
Seattle Post Intelligencer via AP ^ | October 1, 2004 | Matthew Daly

Posted on 10/01/2004 7:12:56 PM PDT by Bernard Marx

WASHINGTON -- Scientists hoping to study the ancient skeleton known as Kennewick Man are protesting a bill by Colorado Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell that they say could block their efforts.

A two-word amendment would change an Indian graves-protection law to allow federally recognized tribes to claim ancient remains even if they cannot prove a link to a current tribe.

Scientists say the bill, if enacted, could have the effect of overturning a federal appeals court ruling that allowed them to study the 9,300-year- old bones.

(Excerpt) Read more at seattlepi.nwsource.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; Miscellaneous; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: amendment; archaeology; campbell; clovis; dna; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; indiangraves; kennewick; kennewickman; mtdna; preclovis; precolumbian
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Mr. Campbell, retiring soon, is one of the new crop of "Republicans." I see he hasn't forgotten his Democrat roots.
1 posted on 10/01/2004 7:12:56 PM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: Bernard Marx

'Oppressed Minority' status is something precious enough not to want to lose, whatever the cost.


2 posted on 10/01/2004 7:18:25 PM PDT by keithtoo (GOP: Faith , Family, Freedom. DemonRats: Traitors, Haters and Vacillators)
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To: keithtoo

I used to not care about this. Now I am getting curious as to just what it is people are trying to hide.


3 posted on 10/01/2004 7:21:02 PM PDT by BenLurkin (We have low inflation and and low unemployment.)
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To: farmfriend; blam

FYI


4 posted on 10/01/2004 7:21:44 PM PDT by Bernard Marx (I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once.)
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To: Bernard Marx
Scientists hoping to study the ancient skeleton known as Kennewick Man are protesting a bill by Colorado Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell that they say could block their efforts.

My,my, I just can't imagine what these "Native Americans"[sic!] find so reverential* about this 9+k year old mummy discovered in the sands of in-land Washington state.

*After all he must be hurried off to his official (a.k.a. sacred) grave at once, without any and/or the slightest further ado.

5 posted on 10/01/2004 7:24:30 PM PDT by yankeedame ("Born with the gift of laughter & a sense that the world was mad.")
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To: Bernard Marx
This kinda' stuff is fascinating, why must politicos always put the kibosh on an amazing story
6 posted on 10/01/2004 7:25:52 PM PDT by sierrahome
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To: BenLurkin
I used to not care about this. Now I am getting curious as to just what it is people are trying to hide.

Amen, Brother Ben! Me, like thee, dost think they protest too much.

7 posted on 10/01/2004 7:26:25 PM PDT by yankeedame ("Born with the gift of laughter & a sense that the world was mad.")
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To: BenLurkin

It's just possible that Kennewick Man might provide evidence that people of a different racial background were here in America before the Indians crossed the Bering Straits.

I don't know if there are any real foundations for such speculations, but that may be what is feared.

It's also possible that it's just a religious matter. Many Indians believe that it's wrong to dig up their dead ancestors and display them in museums, and you can't really blame them for that. But if physical anthropologists really think this skeleton is different, then it would be too bad not to investigate it more closely.


8 posted on 10/01/2004 7:26:58 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Bernard Marx

What a pandering Dumb-A$$!!


9 posted on 10/01/2004 7:30:30 PM PDT by vpintheak (Our Liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain!)
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To: Bernard Marx

Sen. Campbell just wants to see the remains buried before they can vote.


10 posted on 10/01/2004 7:34:46 PM PDT by hyperpoly8 (Illegitimati Non Carborundum)
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To: Bernard Marx

This is important for the people of our Nation to know/prove/understand.
Since the Indians have no proof of relationship and no proof that they were native to the land I don't think they should be able to claim anything.

If we do this some lawyer will use it to do something else equally unbearable.


11 posted on 10/01/2004 7:40:51 PM PDT by Spirited
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To: Cicero

This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. The Kennewick Man skeleton is almost certainly caucasian, but only a complete examination will determine this for certain. If it turns out white men were here before the Indians, suddenly the entire paradigm shifts. Indians would have probably wiped out the indigenous peoples, or absorbed them, making American Indian claims to victimization and superior entitlement far less compelling. The "They-Were-Here-First" harangue of the left goes out the window.

The Clinton Administration ordered the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to bulldoze the site where Kennewick Man was discovered before a bill from congress declaring the site protected could reach his desk (but AFTER it had already been passed). Spokesmen had the nerve to say they were only doing it to protect the location--of course, they destroyed its archaelogical value completely. It was an absolutely incredible instance of minority pandering. This is one of the most shameless examples of left-wing attempts to conceal historical evidence on record.


12 posted on 10/01/2004 7:50:26 PM PDT by Hank All-American (Free Men, Free Minds, Free Markets baby!)
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To: Cicero
It's just possible that Kennewick Man might provide evidence that people of a different racial background were here in America before the Indians crossed the Bering Straits.

Correct!

13 posted on 10/01/2004 7:51:52 PM PDT by Howlin (What's the Font Spacing, Kenneth?)
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To: Bernard Marx
Mr. Campbell, retiring soon, is one of the new crop of "Republicans." I see he hasn't
forgotten his Democrat roots.


And if he once was acquainted with the term "and the truth shall set you free",
he's ditched that as well.
14 posted on 10/01/2004 7:53:46 PM PDT by VOA
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To: Hank All-American

Not a bad bumper sticker

Kennewick Man Was Here First


15 posted on 10/01/2004 8:06:41 PM PDT by Cold Heart
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; 2Jedismom; 4ConservativeJustices; ...
"We can see what's inside bone!" -- 'Cosmo' Kramer
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

16 posted on 10/01/2004 8:11:06 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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To: Cold Heart

There you go. Right next to your "I'm a Kennewickian-American" sticker. We can drive them mad. Mad, I say.


17 posted on 10/01/2004 8:12:05 PM PDT by Hank All-American (Free Men, Free Minds, Free Markets baby!)
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To: Bernard Marx

Guess they are afraid to see if "Whitey" was running around here at the same time or even before the American Indians. I know there is a small group of people from Caucasian stock in Japan called the Anu, if the Kennewick Man is White, maybe he could have come from them. Or perhaps there were ancients or an ancient civilization prior to us who came to the New World. There are many possibilities.


18 posted on 10/01/2004 8:17:55 PM PDT by Nowhere Man ("Laws are the spider webs through which the big bugs fly past and the little ones get caught.")
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To: Bernard Marx

This nonsensical legislation isn't going anywhere. Nice try by the "august body", keepers of truth and knowledge.


19 posted on 10/01/2004 8:20:34 PM PDT by Mad_Tom_Rackham (CBS's story is sinking faster than Uncle Ted's Oldsmobile.)
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To: Hank All-American

Kennewickian-American
BTTT


20 posted on 10/01/2004 8:29:53 PM PDT by Cold Heart
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To: yankeedame
My,my, I just can't imagine what these "Native Americans"[sic!] find so reverential* about this 9+k year old mummy discovered in the sands of in-land Washington state.

It has nothing to do with reverence. They are scared to death that it will turn out to be a race other than American Indians. This would suggest that the current batch of American Indians committed genocide against the previous inhabitants of North America.

21 posted on 10/01/2004 8:41:48 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: Bernard Marx
Who Were The Si-Te-Cah?
22 posted on 10/01/2004 8:48:45 PM PDT by blam
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To: BenLurkin

"I used to not care about this. Now I am getting curious as to just what it is people are trying to hide"

It's quite simple, really. Northwest American Indians are trying to hide the fact that when they came to the continent it was already populated by a caucasian tribe from whom they took the land, and who they wiped out.

IOW, they are the same as the European explorers and colonists who returned the favor centuries later.


23 posted on 10/01/2004 8:50:25 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: BenLurkin

What they are trying to hide is the skeleton is caucasion.


24 posted on 10/01/2004 8:51:32 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (What did Kerry know and when did he know it?)
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To: Cicero
It's also possible that it's just a religious matter. Many Indians believe that it's wrong to dig up their dead ancestors and display them in museums, and you can't really blame them for that"

You can't, I can.

25 posted on 10/01/2004 9:12:12 PM PDT by norton
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To: ModelBreaker

There are significant implications for all of the entitlements that American Indians now get, if it can be proven that they are not the original inhabitants. A good lawyer could make hay out of it.

Consider this... their entitlements are entirely based on race. If they are found to have derived from Caucasian as well as Mongol or other sources, the proper court case could "Jeopardize their Satanding"... after all, nobody has yet managed to deicide whether someone who is half Jewish is really Jewish or German OOPS EXCUSE ME... Wrong National-Socialist country here - I meant to say, whether someone who is half Black is really Black or American... Or rather, actually what I'm trying to say is -

I think I better shut up now


26 posted on 10/01/2004 9:24:45 PM PDT by fire_eye (Socialism is the opiate of academia.)
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To: Cicero
It's just possible that Kennewick Man might provide evidence that people of a different racial background were here in America before the Indians crossed the Bering Straits.

Which time? We all came over in waves - there wasn't like one big migration, but many over the course of thousands of years - My own people have been here for 10,000 years.

I personally think its unfortunate that the Washington tribes are not allowing study of the remains, but I also find it unfortunate that indian-haters (and I'm not saying that you are one - not an accusation) are trying to use it for nefarious purposes...

27 posted on 10/01/2004 9:35:14 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: ModelBreaker
This would suggest that the current batch of American Indians committed genocide against the previous inhabitants of North America.

Wow! You can tell all that from one 9300 year old set of remains? Wow! You ARE good!

28 posted on 10/01/2004 9:38:54 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Chad Fairbanks; Cicero
I personally think its unfortunate that the Washington tribes are not allowing study of the remains, but I also find it unfortunate that indian-haters (and I'm not saying that you are one - not an accusation) are trying to use it for nefarious purposes...

Then just what are you saying, Chad? Who are the "indian-haters" and what are their "nefarious purposes?"

29 posted on 10/01/2004 9:40:39 PM PDT by Bernard Marx (I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once.)
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To: Bernard Marx

Well, people who, without one single trace of evidence, state as fact that indians committed genocide against earlier caucasian inhabitants, for example.

The bottomline is, look through ANY American Indian related thread on this board, and you will see the hatred. Just open your eyes.

The nefarious purposes? Why, they would like to do away with every treaty, agreement, and everything else. Ya know, renege on legally, constitutionally binding agreements because they are just "race-based entitlements" etc...


30 posted on 10/01/2004 9:43:53 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: ModelBreaker
This would suggest that the current batch of American Indians committed genocide against the previous inhabitants of North America.

Or maybe American Indians just had better survival skills than this so-far ficticious race that people are hoping and prayer were here before.

31 posted on 10/01/2004 9:44:47 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (The police never think it's as funny as you do.)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet

Well, I say let these people go crazy about a set of 9300 year old bones. Big deal. We have one set of bones that MIGHT be caucasian... If, as is being said, we indians committed genocide against earlier white people, one would think (call me crazy here) we'd find a heck of a lot more sets of remains, wouldn't you? I mean, where are the other hundreds of thousands of sets of remains of earlier caucasians that we supposedly displaced? Where?


32 posted on 10/01/2004 9:48:22 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Chad Fairbanks

(Somewhat rhetorical question to start:)

Why did the U.S. Government enter into treaties - which I feel we should honor, because I don't believe you renege on a deal, unlike a lot of folks, apparently - with American Indians? I don't see why "Kennewick Man", should he turn out to be what people are wishing for, would change one thing about the circumstances under which our government made agreements with the tribes.


33 posted on 10/01/2004 9:53:08 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (The police never think it's as funny as you do.)
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To: Nowhere Man

The bottom line here...is if you are a researcher, and come across suspicious bones from now on...you take them to your study quietly and don't report nothing until the final report is conclusive. It may be bad ethics...but looking at how the federal government has gotten itself involved in the control of bones...its the only way. And one can be sure of one thing. If the Kennewick dude was around...he's got relatives who were here, and their bones will eventually be found...and we won't repeat this performance with the government laws.


34 posted on 10/01/2004 9:54:27 PM PDT by pepsionice
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
Oh, and another funny thing - Here's what National Park Service Chief Archaeologist Francis P. McManamo had to say about Kennewick Man:

His ancestors almost certainly were Asian. These distant ancestors were part of the initial movement of people from northeastern Asia that gradually crossed the Bering Land Bridge or paddled along its shoreline when the land bridge was exposed, thousands of years before their descendent lived along the Columbia River. Other relatives of these same distant ancestors of Kennewick Man moved south into what is now Japan, coastal China, and onto the islands of the Pacific."

So far, EVERY study up to now about Kennewick Man shows him to be culturally Asian - Anthropologists were also excited because the skeleton was 90 per cent complete and had unusual features differing from those of Europeans or modern native Americans.

Shortly after the discovery, a select group of government scientists were allowed to study the remains. They concluded that Kennewick Man's ancestors came from Japan, Polynesia or south-east Asia.

35 posted on 10/01/2004 9:56:51 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
I agree the genocide accusation is a giant leap with no evidence. But if the Kennewick or other remains prove to be non-Indian it would certainly muddy Indian claims to be the "first Americans." Maybe the Siberian immigrants lived in peace with the [possible] earlier North American inhabitants, maybe not. I'll wait for evidence on all counts.

But political interference with the scientific investigation of the evidence doesn't pass the smell test. Maybe there are some nefarious motives on both sides of the issue. I don't see all the Indian threads but I don't recall anyone suggesting the abrogation of treaties and agreements.

36 posted on 10/01/2004 9:58:01 PM PDT by Bernard Marx (I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once.)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet

It wouldn't - except, as shown above, people are really hoping a slick lawyer could change that.

However, what people continuously fail to mention is one simple fact - The scientists WERE allowed to stufdy the remains after they were found, and EVERY conclusion was of someone who was NOT Caucasian and not a MODERN American Indian - they were of Asian ancestry. Period. End of story.

However, because some stupid clay modelling done that made Kennewick Man look like Patrick Stewart, some people decided it must have been a white guy who was killed by newly-arriving indians blah blah blah...

People can be ignorant about some things, is the bottm line.


37 posted on 10/01/2004 10:00:17 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Bernard Marx
But if the Kennewick or other remains prove to be non-Indian it would certainly muddy Indian claims to be the "first Americans."

My point is, so what? Such findings would impact bragging rights, but little else. It is completely irrelevant, as far as I can see, to the agreements our government made with American Indian tribes. Some people here seem to be arguing that it would change everything.

I don't see why.

38 posted on 10/01/2004 10:04:19 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (The police never think it's as funny as you do.)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
It wouldn't - except, as shown above, people are really hoping a slick lawyer could change that.

It's completely irrelevant to our government's relationship with American Indians. It annoys me to see people advancing the notion that we should go back on our part of an agreement based on some junk like this.

39 posted on 10/01/2004 10:05:57 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (The police never think it's as funny as you do.)
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To: Bernard Marx
I agree the genocide accusation is a giant leap with no evidence. But if the Kennewick or other remains prove to be non-Indian it would certainly muddy Indian claims to be the "first Americans." Maybe the Siberian immigrants lived in peace with the [possible] earlier North American inhabitants, maybe not. I'll wait for evidence on all counts.

I think we may be on similar pages here. AS an American Indian who's people have lived here for over 10,000 years, I don't have any vested interest in proving whether anyone was here first, or second etc... That doesn't define who I am.

There were waves of migrations to this continent - over thousands of years, varoius groups came here and passed through the northwest on their way to other places. Some stayed, some didn't. Not all of those groups are going to be the same. There is a huge difference between those arriving cultures, and those cultures that developed here.

Kennewick man wasn't what we would consider a modern American Indian - cultures and people change after thousands of years - but he was an ancestor, most certainly. He was of Asian stock, based on all the studies. So, he doesn't really prove anything, other than that 9300 years ago there was a guy here with asian ancestry.

But political interference with the scientific investigation of the evidence doesn't pass the smell test. Maybe there are some nefarious motives on both sides of the issue.

I'm sure there are. However, I think there is a valid point that having on'es ancestor dug up and studied kinda sucks if you think about it... Other than that, they have no valid reason to stop the studies...

I don't see all the Indian threads but I don't recall anyone suggesting the abrogation of treaties and agreements.

It happened even in this thread... not by you, but by others...

40 posted on 10/01/2004 10:06:29 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Bernard Marx

HIDEOUS.

CRAZY.

Where can we make a fuss to?

email links preferably.


41 posted on 10/01/2004 10:12:23 PM PDT by Quix (CONTACT CHURCHES UR AREA 2 HAVE SOLID PLAN 4 BUSSES VANS 2 GET CONSRV VOTERS 2 POLLS ELECTION DAY!)
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To: norton

Let me know where your ancestors are buried, would ya? I'd like to do a study about the early norton ancestors in America, and need access to their remains. You don't mind if I go dig them up do ya? You seem to be ok with that, so I figure you won't make a fuss, right?


42 posted on 10/01/2004 10:16:14 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
We have photos:



(Sorry. I couldn't resist.)

43 posted on 10/01/2004 10:19:29 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (The police never think it's as funny as you do.)
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To: fire_eye
There are significant implications for all of the entitlements that American Indians now get, if it can be proven that they are not the original inhabitants. A good lawyer could make hay out of it.

Really? You honestly think a set of 9300 year old bones will make any difference whatsoever to legally-binding treaties this nation has made with the various tribes? Oooookay.

Consider this... their entitlements are entirely based on race.

Ummm. No. They are based on specific agreements between governments - The U.S. Government, and the Tribal government - what are called "Treaties".

If they are found to have derived from Caucasian as well as Mongol or other sources, the proper court case could "Jeopardize their Satanding"...

Ummm... Maybe you havn't paid much attention, but it has long been theorized that some American Indian peoples were decended from prehistoric people who came from what is now Europe - at least one wave of migration, in addition to the man others from Asia... And that changed things how, exactly? hmmm?

after all, nobody has yet managed to deicide whether someone who is half Jewish is really Jewish or German OOPS EXCUSE ME... Wrong National-Socialist country here - I meant to say, whether someone who is half Black is really Black or American... Or rather, actually what I'm trying to say is -

Ok... ya lost me with the weird nazi-referencing stuff...

I think I better shut up now

Well, at least until you have a single clue what you are speaking about, I'd have to agree.

44 posted on 10/01/2004 10:22:12 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Bernard Marx

well, if kennewick man was japanese, and if the other first americans were australian aborigines (as other threads have said), i guess we should split the country in 2 and give half to the japanese and half to the australians.
the whites and native americans will all have to go back to wherever.


45 posted on 10/01/2004 10:25:02 PM PDT by drhogan
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To: pepsionice
The bottom line here...is if you are a researcher, and come across suspicious bones from now on...you take them to your study quietly and don't report nothing until the final report is conclusive. It may be bad ethics...but looking at how the federal government has gotten itself involved in the control of bones...its the only way. And one can be sure of one thing. If the Kennewick dude was around...he's got relatives who were here, and their bones will eventually be found...and we won't repeat this performance with the government laws.

Sort of like a "Black Ops in reverse." B-) I have a version of the "Three S's" for this one, "Shovel, Steal, and Shut-Up" until your analysis is complete. I know if I was an archeologist/anthropologists and I found bones over 9000 years old, I would be quiet about, try to keep quiet while getting tests and even hide some samples in case if I'm found it. It's a shame but it seems like the laws are against the science community where they should not be. I'm reminded of the story in the original "Planet of the Apes" where there is a "Forbidden Zone" and the elite keeps the scientists quiet about the fact that human civilization predated them and was much more advanced.
46 posted on 10/01/2004 10:26:07 PM PDT by Nowhere Man ("Laws are the spider webs through which the big bugs fly past and the little ones get caught.")
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To: drhogan

Ummm... That makes zero sense. If you took a sample of my DNA, since I am Iroquois, you'd find that my ancestry comes from the Jomon, the prehistoric people of Japan... However, if you sampled Seminoles and other Floridian indians, you'd probably find they shared similar ancestry as Eskimos - they both are a later stock of the Jomon.

Then, you study some of the Athabascan groups, yo'd find they are decended from a prehistoric peoples from what is now China, and maybe if you checked Algonkian peoples you'd find they may actually have some Prehistoric European ancestry...

However, since the ancestry is thousands of years old, what you say makes absolutely no sense... :0)


47 posted on 10/01/2004 10:31:05 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: Nowhere Man

How are the laws against Science? They scientists got to study Kennewick Man, and they get to study them again...

So, how is anything being denied them or covered up?


48 posted on 10/01/2004 10:32:25 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (How do you ask a hamster to be the last hamster to die for a mistake?)
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To: fire_eye
There are significant implications for all of the entitlements that American Indians now get, if it can be proven that they are not the original inhabitants.

Well that's not true. The agreements that were broken between Native Americans and the US Gov't were not agreements that were made thousands of years ago. More like 200 years ago or less.

49 posted on 10/01/2004 10:34:54 PM PDT by Lijahsbubbe ( Jammin' in my jammies)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
AS an American Indian who's people have lived here for over 10,000 years, I don't have any vested interest in proving whether anyone was here first, or second etc...

Neither do I. I'm a blend of American Indian and European but I don't try to hang on to either past -- I'm an American.

Who's to say (without full scientific study and evidence) which cultures developed here? Obstructing the study of Kennewick Man doesn't contribute to the evidence base. Nobody knows for sure at this point whether Kennewick was an Indian "ancestor," as you call him, or whether he was as distinct from Indians racially as a Cro Magnon was from a Neanderthal. If you frame the question broadly enough, all humans are linked through ancestry.

When Kennewick man was discovered half-buried on a bank of the Columbia River they thought at first he was the remains of a recent homicide. No one deliberately dug him up in violation of tradition. But it soon became clear the remains were worthy of careful anthropological study. Your claims in an earlier post that the scientists have studied him sufficiently simply isn't true. There's an enormous amount yet to be learned from the remains. The politicians moved in almost as soon as they learned of the discovery and did enormous damage both to the Kennewick bones and the discovery site. They grabbed the bones before any serious study had begun. The matter's been litigated ever since and some of the bones have gone missing already.

50 posted on 10/01/2004 10:47:36 PM PDT by Bernard Marx (I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once.)
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