Skip to comments.Measure could block Kennewick Man study
Posted on 10/01/2004 7:12:56 PM PDT by Bernard Marx
WASHINGTON -- Scientists hoping to study the ancient skeleton known as Kennewick Man are protesting a bill by Colorado Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell that they say could block their efforts.
A two-word amendment would change an Indian graves-protection law to allow federally recognized tribes to claim ancient remains even if they cannot prove a link to a current tribe.
Scientists say the bill, if enacted, could have the effect of overturning a federal appeals court ruling that allowed them to study the 9,300-year- old bones.
(Excerpt) Read more at seattlepi.nwsource.com ...
'Oppressed Minority' status is something precious enough not to want to lose, whatever the cost.
I used to not care about this. Now I am getting curious as to just what it is people are trying to hide.
My,my, I just can't imagine what these "Native Americans"[sic!] find so reverential* about this 9+k year old mummy discovered in the sands of in-land Washington state.
*After all he must be hurried off to his official (a.k.a. sacred) grave at once, without any and/or the slightest further ado.
Amen, Brother Ben! Me, like thee, dost think they protest too much.
It's just possible that Kennewick Man might provide evidence that people of a different racial background were here in America before the Indians crossed the Bering Straits.
I don't know if there are any real foundations for such speculations, but that may be what is feared.
It's also possible that it's just a religious matter. Many Indians believe that it's wrong to dig up their dead ancestors and display them in museums, and you can't really blame them for that. But if physical anthropologists really think this skeleton is different, then it would be too bad not to investigate it more closely.
What a pandering Dumb-A$$!!
Sen. Campbell just wants to see the remains buried before they can vote.
This is important for the people of our Nation to know/prove/understand.
Since the Indians have no proof of relationship and no proof that they were native to the land I don't think they should be able to claim anything.
If we do this some lawyer will use it to do something else equally unbearable.
This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. The Kennewick Man skeleton is almost certainly caucasian, but only a complete examination will determine this for certain. If it turns out white men were here before the Indians, suddenly the entire paradigm shifts. Indians would have probably wiped out the indigenous peoples, or absorbed them, making American Indian claims to victimization and superior entitlement far less compelling. The "They-Were-Here-First" harangue of the left goes out the window.
The Clinton Administration ordered the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to bulldoze the site where Kennewick Man was discovered before a bill from congress declaring the site protected could reach his desk (but AFTER it had already been passed). Spokesmen had the nerve to say they were only doing it to protect the location--of course, they destroyed its archaelogical value completely. It was an absolutely incredible instance of minority pandering. This is one of the most shameless examples of left-wing attempts to conceal historical evidence on record.
Not a bad bumper sticker
Kennewick Man Was Here First
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest -- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)
There you go. Right next to your "I'm a Kennewickian-American" sticker. We can drive them mad. Mad, I say.
Guess they are afraid to see if "Whitey" was running around here at the same time or even before the American Indians. I know there is a small group of people from Caucasian stock in Japan called the Anu, if the Kennewick Man is White, maybe he could have come from them. Or perhaps there were ancients or an ancient civilization prior to us who came to the New World. There are many possibilities.
This nonsensical legislation isn't going anywhere. Nice try by the "august body", keepers of truth and knowledge.
It has nothing to do with reverence. They are scared to death that it will turn out to be a race other than American Indians. This would suggest that the current batch of American Indians committed genocide against the previous inhabitants of North America.
"I used to not care about this. Now I am getting curious as to just what it is people are trying to hide"
It's quite simple, really. Northwest American Indians are trying to hide the fact that when they came to the continent it was already populated by a caucasian tribe from whom they took the land, and who they wiped out.
IOW, they are the same as the European explorers and colonists who returned the favor centuries later.
What they are trying to hide is the skeleton is caucasion.
You can't, I can.
There are significant implications for all of the entitlements that American Indians now get, if it can be proven that they are not the original inhabitants. A good lawyer could make hay out of it.
Consider this... their entitlements are entirely based on race. If they are found to have derived from Caucasian as well as Mongol or other sources, the proper court case could "Jeopardize their Satanding"... after all, nobody has yet managed to deicide whether someone who is half Jewish is really Jewish or German OOPS EXCUSE ME... Wrong National-Socialist country here - I meant to say, whether someone who is half Black is really Black or American... Or rather, actually what I'm trying to say is -
I think I better shut up now
Which time? We all came over in waves - there wasn't like one big migration, but many over the course of thousands of years - My own people have been here for 10,000 years.
I personally think its unfortunate that the Washington tribes are not allowing study of the remains, but I also find it unfortunate that indian-haters (and I'm not saying that you are one - not an accusation) are trying to use it for nefarious purposes...
Wow! You can tell all that from one 9300 year old set of remains? Wow! You ARE good!
Then just what are you saying, Chad? Who are the "indian-haters" and what are their "nefarious purposes?"
Well, people who, without one single trace of evidence, state as fact that indians committed genocide against earlier caucasian inhabitants, for example.
The bottomline is, look through ANY American Indian related thread on this board, and you will see the hatred. Just open your eyes.
The nefarious purposes? Why, they would like to do away with every treaty, agreement, and everything else. Ya know, renege on legally, constitutionally binding agreements because they are just "race-based entitlements" etc...
Or maybe American Indians just had better survival skills than this so-far ficticious race that people are hoping and prayer were here before.
Well, I say let these people go crazy about a set of 9300 year old bones. Big deal. We have one set of bones that MIGHT be caucasian... If, as is being said, we indians committed genocide against earlier white people, one would think (call me crazy here) we'd find a heck of a lot more sets of remains, wouldn't you? I mean, where are the other hundreds of thousands of sets of remains of earlier caucasians that we supposedly displaced? Where?
(Somewhat rhetorical question to start:)
Why did the U.S. Government enter into treaties - which I feel we should honor, because I don't believe you renege on a deal, unlike a lot of folks, apparently - with American Indians? I don't see why "Kennewick Man", should he turn out to be what people are wishing for, would change one thing about the circumstances under which our government made agreements with the tribes.
The bottom line here...is if you are a researcher, and come across suspicious bones from now on...you take them to your study quietly and don't report nothing until the final report is conclusive. It may be bad ethics...but looking at how the federal government has gotten itself involved in the control of bones...its the only way. And one can be sure of one thing. If the Kennewick dude was around...he's got relatives who were here, and their bones will eventually be found...and we won't repeat this performance with the government laws.
His ancestors almost certainly were Asian. These distant ancestors were part of the initial movement of people from northeastern Asia that gradually crossed the Bering Land Bridge or paddled along its shoreline when the land bridge was exposed, thousands of years before their descendent lived along the Columbia River. Other relatives of these same distant ancestors of Kennewick Man moved south into what is now Japan, coastal China, and onto the islands of the Pacific."
So far, EVERY study up to now about Kennewick Man shows him to be culturally Asian - Anthropologists were also excited because the skeleton was 90 per cent complete and had unusual features differing from those of Europeans or modern native Americans.
Shortly after the discovery, a select group of government scientists were allowed to study the remains. They concluded that Kennewick Man's ancestors came from Japan, Polynesia or south-east Asia.
But political interference with the scientific investigation of the evidence doesn't pass the smell test. Maybe there are some nefarious motives on both sides of the issue. I don't see all the Indian threads but I don't recall anyone suggesting the abrogation of treaties and agreements.
It wouldn't - except, as shown above, people are really hoping a slick lawyer could change that.
However, what people continuously fail to mention is one simple fact - The scientists WERE allowed to stufdy the remains after they were found, and EVERY conclusion was of someone who was NOT Caucasian and not a MODERN American Indian - they were of Asian ancestry. Period. End of story.
However, because some stupid clay modelling done that made Kennewick Man look like Patrick Stewart, some people decided it must have been a white guy who was killed by newly-arriving indians blah blah blah...
People can be ignorant about some things, is the bottm line.
My point is, so what? Such findings would impact bragging rights, but little else. It is completely irrelevant, as far as I can see, to the agreements our government made with American Indian tribes. Some people here seem to be arguing that it would change everything.
I don't see why.
It's completely irrelevant to our government's relationship with American Indians. It annoys me to see people advancing the notion that we should go back on our part of an agreement based on some junk like this.
I think we may be on similar pages here. AS an American Indian who's people have lived here for over 10,000 years, I don't have any vested interest in proving whether anyone was here first, or second etc... That doesn't define who I am.
There were waves of migrations to this continent - over thousands of years, varoius groups came here and passed through the northwest on their way to other places. Some stayed, some didn't. Not all of those groups are going to be the same. There is a huge difference between those arriving cultures, and those cultures that developed here.
Kennewick man wasn't what we would consider a modern American Indian - cultures and people change after thousands of years - but he was an ancestor, most certainly. He was of Asian stock, based on all the studies. So, he doesn't really prove anything, other than that 9300 years ago there was a guy here with asian ancestry.
But political interference with the scientific investigation of the evidence doesn't pass the smell test. Maybe there are some nefarious motives on both sides of the issue.
I'm sure there are. However, I think there is a valid point that having on'es ancestor dug up and studied kinda sucks if you think about it... Other than that, they have no valid reason to stop the studies...
I don't see all the Indian threads but I don't recall anyone suggesting the abrogation of treaties and agreements.
It happened even in this thread... not by you, but by others...
Where can we make a fuss to?
email links preferably.
Let me know where your ancestors are buried, would ya? I'd like to do a study about the early norton ancestors in America, and need access to their remains. You don't mind if I go dig them up do ya? You seem to be ok with that, so I figure you won't make a fuss, right?
(Sorry. I couldn't resist.)
Really? You honestly think a set of 9300 year old bones will make any difference whatsoever to legally-binding treaties this nation has made with the various tribes? Oooookay.
Consider this... their entitlements are entirely based on race.
Ummm. No. They are based on specific agreements between governments - The U.S. Government, and the Tribal government - what are called "Treaties".
If they are found to have derived from Caucasian as well as Mongol or other sources, the proper court case could "Jeopardize their Satanding"...
Ummm... Maybe you havn't paid much attention, but it has long been theorized that some American Indian peoples were decended from prehistoric people who came from what is now Europe - at least one wave of migration, in addition to the man others from Asia... And that changed things how, exactly? hmmm?
after all, nobody has yet managed to deicide whether someone who is half Jewish is really Jewish or German OOPS EXCUSE ME... Wrong National-Socialist country here - I meant to say, whether someone who is half Black is really Black or American... Or rather, actually what I'm trying to say is -
Ok... ya lost me with the weird nazi-referencing stuff...
I think I better shut up now
Well, at least until you have a single clue what you are speaking about, I'd have to agree.
well, if kennewick man was japanese, and if the other first americans were australian aborigines (as other threads have said), i guess we should split the country in 2 and give half to the japanese and half to the australians.
the whites and native americans will all have to go back to wherever.
Ummm... That makes zero sense. If you took a sample of my DNA, since I am Iroquois, you'd find that my ancestry comes from the Jomon, the prehistoric people of Japan... However, if you sampled Seminoles and other Floridian indians, you'd probably find they shared similar ancestry as Eskimos - they both are a later stock of the Jomon.
Then, you study some of the Athabascan groups, yo'd find they are decended from a prehistoric peoples from what is now China, and maybe if you checked Algonkian peoples you'd find they may actually have some Prehistoric European ancestry...
However, since the ancestry is thousands of years old, what you say makes absolutely no sense... :0)
How are the laws against Science? They scientists got to study Kennewick Man, and they get to study them again...
So, how is anything being denied them or covered up?
Well that's not true. The agreements that were broken between Native Americans and the US Gov't were not agreements that were made thousands of years ago. More like 200 years ago or less.
Neither do I. I'm a blend of American Indian and European but I don't try to hang on to either past -- I'm an American.
Who's to say (without full scientific study and evidence) which cultures developed here? Obstructing the study of Kennewick Man doesn't contribute to the evidence base. Nobody knows for sure at this point whether Kennewick was an Indian "ancestor," as you call him, or whether he was as distinct from Indians racially as a Cro Magnon was from a Neanderthal. If you frame the question broadly enough, all humans are linked through ancestry.
When Kennewick man was discovered half-buried on a bank of the Columbia River they thought at first he was the remains of a recent homicide. No one deliberately dug him up in violation of tradition. But it soon became clear the remains were worthy of careful anthropological study. Your claims in an earlier post that the scientists have studied him sufficiently simply isn't true. There's an enormous amount yet to be learned from the remains. The politicians moved in almost as soon as they learned of the discovery and did enormous damage both to the Kennewick bones and the discovery site. They grabbed the bones before any serious study had begun. The matter's been litigated ever since and some of the bones have gone missing already.
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