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DEM FLASHED 'WRITE' STUFF AT DEBATE (KERRY PULLED OUT A BLACK PEN?)
New York Post ^ | 10/04/04 | GERSH KUNTZMAN

Posted on 10/03/2004 11:56:26 PM PDT by kattracks

October 4, 2004 -- Was John Kerry trying to pull something at the debate last week?

That question was burning up the Internet yesterday after a slo-mo review of the footage showed the Massachusetts senator taking an object out of his right pocket before the first question.

Was it a cheat sheet — as some conservative bloggers claimed — or was it something innocuous?

Either way, it would violate the debate rules agreed to by both campaigns: "No props, notes . . . or other tangible things may be brought into the debate."

Many blogs offered links to the "Pocket-gate" footage. One, INDC Journal, even posted frame-by-frame stills purporting to show Kerry pulling out a notecard and placing it onto the podium.

But the mystery was solved when The Post reviewed a Fox News Channel feed from Thursday's debate: Kerry pulled out . . . a black pen.


(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: cheat; cheater; firstdebate; kerry; pen
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To: Selkie
Why would they call it a black pen anyway ? Kerry and Bush both are clearly seen using the same type white pen in the debate. (cause Im totally anal and just went thru the debate tape again)

Great point! The Post really blew it on this, IMHO.

51 posted on 10/04/2004 12:34:16 AM PDT by NYCVirago
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To: Retief
How reliable is the New York Post? This was the newspaper that reported on its front page that Kerry picked Gephardt as his VP, not Edwards.

The NY Post gets it wrong again.


NY Post is usually on our side. However, the reporter may not be. Note in the article, although the debate rules specifically mentions pens are illegal, it is not included in the article.
52 posted on 10/04/2004 12:35:07 AM PDT by igoramus987
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To: Bush gal in LA
Well, conceivably a glint of light off of a shiny pen could look like a line. And if it is in motion, it could look like a smeared line... which under perfect conditions could appear as a series of white lines parallel to each other - so closely that they look a white rectangle. (Recall how a point of light lke a star appears as a line and not a point in time lapse photography.)

But in the case of a pen the glare is more likely to look like a white off-of-square parallogram or rhombus since the human hand usually doesn't move in just one direction in space.

Since pens are also a violation of the debate rules, the Kerry campaign should have said the white shape was just a goofy shirt sleeve cuff.

53 posted on 10/04/2004 12:35:19 AM PDT by piasa (Attitude Adjustments Offered Here Free of Charge)
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To: igoramus987

If you go thru hi res freeze frames of th efootage there is a split second where kerry placing whatever he had gotten out of his jacket with his left hand on the podium, that he raises his right hand onto the podium too.

I wish someone had a good clip of this.


54 posted on 10/04/2004 12:36:34 AM PDT by Selkie
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To: Selkie
This is not a pen! (QuickTime)
55 posted on 10/04/2004 12:38:27 AM PDT by newzjunkey (Why are we in Iraq? Just point the whiners here: http://www.massgraves.info)
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To: piasa

Even if, for some reason, you discount the items he is either holding in one hand or pulling out of his coat... you can see him holding it afterwards. There's also a neat little "flip" action right before shuffles it down onto the podium. Either a flip notebook, cell phone, or PDA. Take your pick. Any of those sink him.


56 posted on 10/04/2004 12:39:40 AM PDT by Advil
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To: Lib-Lickers 2; cyn; Advil
oversized sleeves...faked photos going around...

I haven't seen any "faked photos." Drudge doesn't mention anything either.

The only "fake" is Kerry's debating technique.

And even Seinfeld's "puffy pirate shirt" didn't have sleeves that big.

Kerry reached into his pocket as he turned his back to the audience. It was a practiced move. If there hadn't been cameras to the rear of him, he would have gotten away with it.

57 posted on 10/04/2004 12:45:14 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (John Kerry is a GirlyManchurian Candidate.)
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To: FesterUSMC
I assume we'll have many freepers going over all available footage from beginning to end. How fortunate that we got the camera angle from behind and to the left of the podiums or we would never have seen this.

I'm wondering if he may have actually pulled a pen from the pocket as a cover story in case he was questioned, but there was definitely something else there as well. He also clearly had something in his right hand as he rounded the back of the podium. Some say it was a handkerchief but even that could have concealed something else.

Whatever the slight of hand, after he reached the podium he was handling a solid rectangular object which he laid on the podium surface. He made a motion which at first appeared as if he was unfolding something. After looking at it many times in the high res version, I now think he was either pressing a button or, as my son suggested, doing a flip motion. Either way, I am beginning to move away from the idea that this was a stack of note cards and leaning toward believing that the object was an electronic device.

I have no doubt that better minds than mine are at work on getting to the truth of this. I look forward to the results.
58 posted on 10/04/2004 12:45:54 AM PDT by Route66 (America's Mainstreet)
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To: newzjunkey

That is definitely not a
pen. Unless it's a new kind that unfolds


59 posted on 10/04/2004 12:46:39 AM PDT by jimboster
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To: Advil

Great minds think alike... :-)


60 posted on 10/04/2004 12:48:02 AM PDT by Route66 (America's Mainstreet)
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To: dandelion

And also i just remembered one of my bad ass friends in junior high used to roll crib notes up inside pens and sneak them into tests that way.

A pen could be more than just a pen.
Which is why no one was allowed to bring any in with them.


61 posted on 10/04/2004 12:50:49 AM PDT by Selkie
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To: Selkie
Screen capture from http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Movies/JFKCheat.mov. If you save it to your computer, you can move through it frame by frame.
62 posted on 10/04/2004 12:51:46 AM PDT by igoramus987
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To: Lib-Lickers 2
come on dude read the article,,,,,,,,,,,Was it a cheat sheet — as some conservative bloggers claimed — or was it something innocuous? Either way, it would violate the debate rules agreed to by both campaigns: "No props, notes . . . or other tangible things may be brought into the debate."

I'm not a dude, and I did read the article. My point is the same as yours -- Kerry wasn't allowed to bring him own pen in, but the Post ignored that part of the agreeement.

63 posted on 10/04/2004 12:53:58 AM PDT by NYCVirago
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Comment #64 Removed by Moderator

To: Lib-Lickers 2
....white squared off object is his oversized sleeves more exposed when reaching into his pocket to get his illegal black pen.

In these photos from Drudge you can clearly see Kerry's cuff before he pulls whatever it was from his pocket.

Now take a look at the photo from Jeff head's post.

that is definitely NOT Kerry's sleeve/cuff.

65 posted on 10/04/2004 1:02:16 AM PDT by kattracks
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To: NYCVirago

no,, that was in the article ,, read this from the article's paragraph below and tell me they didn't mention that even the pen was illegal to use,, THE POST---,,,Was it a cheat sheet — as some conservative bloggers claimed — or was it something innocuous? Either way, it would violate the debate rules agreed to by both campaigns: "No props, notes . . . or other tangible things may be brought into the debate." ................ I hope it was an encyclopedia,, maybe the Enquirer is buying a closeup photo,, I hope so,,, after the Sandy Burgler episode I don't put anything out of bounds for those guys.


66 posted on 10/04/2004 1:03:18 AM PDT by Lib-Lickers 2
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If Bush had won the debate, and DU were doing this...

I think this debate about the pen is funny. What I think is funnier is that people here and especially at DU think that Kerry winning a debate, and getting a bump as people consider the new guy, actually think that means Kerry can win.

It wasn't a pen, or a piece of paper. It was the little bell he uises to signal his peanut butter butler, ok??

67 posted on 10/04/2004 1:05:26 AM PDT by Darkwolf377
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To: kattracks

that white square is well above the lecturn,, he surely wouldn't have lifted cheat notes up that high,, and someone out of the hundreds of photographers have to have a closeup of that,, somebody needs to come forward,,


68 posted on 10/04/2004 1:08:38 AM PDT by Lib-Lickers 2
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To: Lib-Lickers 2
"No props, notes . . . or other tangible things may be brought into the debate."

But the thing they're quoting specifically mentioned pens, and they left that out of the article:

"Each candidate must submit to the staff of the Commission prior to the debate all such paper and any pens or pencils with which a candidate may wish to take notes during the debate, and the staff or commission will place such paper, pens and pencils on the podium..."

So the New York Post, of all media outlets, misses the story.

69 posted on 10/04/2004 1:09:13 AM PDT by NYCVirago
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To: cyn; pcgTheDestroyer
This article has been excerpted to comply with a request from the NY Post. Please do not add additional text from the article.

Thanks

AM

70 posted on 10/04/2004 1:10:31 AM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Darkwolf377

exactly,, someone has to come over a non faked photo that really means something until then Bush still wins,,,,,,,


71 posted on 10/04/2004 1:12:03 AM PDT by Lib-Lickers 2
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To: kattracks
John Kerry is running for President, and he wants you to know....

 

He can almost put his face to his groin...

 

he is well balanced...

 

he fears no obstacle..

 

he shows power in style....

 

he is manly....

 

..uhhhh...well sort of manly....

 

No make that manly!

 

 He likes really really likes oranges

 

So much that he likes to look like one!

 

Just like the Oompa Loompas!

 

And he is racially sensitive....

 

Or maybe just sensitive to comrade Jane?

 

He can even flip flop on his race...He is way cool..He`s Irish when in Massachussets, he`s Jewish when in New York and now he`s a brother! Next week maybe he`ll be Asian!

 

And he is an expert on the John F. Kennedy patent bent back posture-thumb-index finger fist gesture...Wow, he is just like JFK! He even has the same initials! He even has the same haircut! Oh I must vote for him..

 

And he is intimidated by steelworkers (as we all are).

 

Plus he can step on the US flag while speaking about why he loves the flag...

 

But he is reporting for Duty!

 

And he gets soccer balls stuck to his forehead from the botox leaking out.......

 

Oh yes, and he is reporting for duty......

 

And he`s afraid of getting hit in the face by a football

 

Ouch I say!

 

And he knows how to cut in line and step over ropes for a photo op...

 

And he can imitate a monkey....

 

And he also has a cool finger that has mutated freakishly long from constant use pointing blame at other people..

 

So here he comes...

 

THE BIGGEST FREGGIN` DORK TO EVER RUN FOR PRESIDENT!

JOHN `EFFEN KERRY!!

"Mama! Wawa! Goo goo! Mama! Wawa!"

 

 

72 posted on 10/04/2004 1:13:16 AM PDT by Imaverygooddriver ( What`s the difference between Windows XP and John Kerry? Windows XP works once in a while.)
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To: kattracks

I saw the vid. That was NOT a pen.


73 posted on 10/04/2004 1:16:38 AM PDT by Ronin (When the fox gnaws....SMILE!)
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To: Lib-Lickers 2
...that white square is well above the lecturn,, he surely wouldn't have lifted cheat notes up that high...

He wasn't lifting anything that high, he was bringing it down from his pocket as he was turning.

74 posted on 10/04/2004 1:21:17 AM PDT by kattracks
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To: Ronin

good,, I trust your judgement Ronin,, I have only seen stills but someone has to have a closeup because that object was clearly higher than the lecturn in the pictures I saw above almost as high as the microphones, what do you think?


75 posted on 10/04/2004 1:21:55 AM PDT by Lib-Lickers 2
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To: kattracks

Whether any thing ever comes of this or not, one thing is clear here: Kerry will be watched like a hawk at the next debate. He won't get away with pulling any kind of stunt like this in the next debate.


76 posted on 10/04/2004 1:27:01 AM PDT by CalRepublican
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To: kattracks

that 3rd picture looks to me like it is out and higher than the podium but it could be covered by an open jacket flap and only visable from the side,, is that what you are seeing?


77 posted on 10/04/2004 1:28:50 AM PDT by Lib-Lickers 2
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To: Ronin
Im a web researcher by trade. which is why I enjoy spending hours looking up th esmallest detail. Anyhoo, guess what ? The guy (Kuntman) who wrote this article for the NY Post is their resident LIBERAL. <<<<<<>>>>>>>> http://gershkuntzman.homestead.com/files/Audition_Tape.htm
78 posted on 10/04/2004 1:29:35 AM PDT by Selkie
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To: Admin Moderator; Dr. Eckleburg; kattracks; Cincinatus' Wife; Chieftain; OXENinFLA; Jeff Head
Noted. OK, let me try again:

Ya'll make sure to check out how this is spun:

kerry's kamp blames this on, get this, the pajama brigade!

I would be rofl if I wasn't seeing kerry bumper stickers and yard signs.

In case anyone is still not sure, and fwiw (because, face it, we already knew he was a lying cheating xxx, and that they really really want to win this) check it out here:

.

Close up pics of Kerry's "notes" -- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1234255/posts


79 posted on 10/04/2004 1:29:40 AM PDT by cyn (prayers always for Terri Schindler Schiavo, her family, and her friends.)
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To: All

During the debate there is a series of responses by Bush to Kerry and back to Bush where you can see Kerry's legal sheet of paper pushed up over over the lectern and up against the "time lights" box. You can actually see Kerry pull the sheet back down . This is where Kerry was referring to his cheat sheet. He had to push the legal piece of paper forward to read the illegal notes underneath. It's during the series of responses where Bush condemns Kerry for calling our allies coerced and bribed.


80 posted on 10/04/2004 1:30:32 AM PDT by jimboster
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To: Selkie

And kuntman writes for Newsweek. And he is a die hard lib dem.

Look at this precious bon mot:


<<<<

American Beat: Indecision 2004
by Gersh Kuntzman (Gersh Kuntzman is also a reporter for The New York Post. His website is at http://www.gersh.tv/) | Jun 14 '04


Whether you're a liberal Democrat like me or a conservative Republican (you know, one of those people who annoy me), it's safe to say that you think this coming election presents the nation with a very clear choice: To dump Bush or not to dump Bush.

That's not the case, though, for the Undecideds, a group of 2-million to 20-million Americans who, despite a two-year-long campaign, millions of dollars in campaign ads, tens of thousands of news stories and dozens of Top 10 Lists on Letterman, still haven't quite figured outwhat they think of the president or ......
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Newsweek/2004/06/14/529834?extID=10032&oliID=213


81 posted on 10/04/2004 1:31:43 AM PDT by Selkie
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To: jimboster

I am so confused at this point...I thought for sure it was a white piece of paper...looked at the quicktime movie for the umpteenth time...and thought I saw him clicking a pen!!!! Seemed more like a pen in the smaller split screen movie...but stills clearly look like he has card(s) in his hand! Perhaps there is some truth in him doing something with each hand!


82 posted on 10/04/2004 1:35:36 AM PDT by miffmole
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To: cyn

Even better the second time.


83 posted on 10/04/2004 1:35:52 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (John Kerry is a GirlyManchurian Candidate.)
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To: miffmole

The guy who wrote the article for the Post is a biased avid liberal democrat.


84 posted on 10/04/2004 1:36:30 AM PDT by Selkie
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To: Selkie
but ya gotta love him for gamely trying this tack: the mystery was solved when The Post reviewed a Fox News Channel feed...

like I said, funny if wasn't so darn much at stake.

Take THAT, you nasty bloggers and pajamahadeen, you right wing conspiracists!

85 posted on 10/04/2004 1:40:46 AM PDT by cyn (prayers always for Terri Schindler Schiavo, her family, and her friends.)
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To: kattracks

I'm waiting to see Kerry deny this, and then for someone to produce a clear close-up to show he's a liar.


86 posted on 10/04/2004 1:42:10 AM PDT by jporcus
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To: dila813

Thats the pen that violated the rules and the spirit of the debate...Right???


87 posted on 10/04/2004 1:44:18 AM PDT by M-cubed
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Chieftain

lol, thanks, and bless you! it was a blow to see it vaporized -- good thing I generally save longer posts w/links!

Here's hoping David Wade's blaming this on the pajamahadeen gets wider coverage and the ridicule it deserves. His candidate broke rules like a common criminal and he dares make excuses?

Chieftain, this is just the latest in kerry's lifetime of lies and deceit, and his people try to cover up with more lies and deceit. Hope this continued overt misbehavior gives more fuel to the swift boat campaign.


88 posted on 10/04/2004 1:48:13 AM PDT by cyn (pajamahadeen, and FED UP.)
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To: Lib-Lickers 2

It looks to me to be about the same height as the first photos. The height of an inside jacket pocket.


89 posted on 10/04/2004 1:50:48 AM PDT by kattracks
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To: Imaverygooddriver; summer

He's tall and he's orange.

Oh, I must vote for him. Often. Maybe in multiple states.


90 posted on 10/04/2004 1:55:30 AM PDT by cyn (pajamahadeen, and FED UP.)
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To: kattracks

"For one thing it was white and square!"

...and so was the thing he took out of his pocket.


91 posted on 10/04/2004 1:56:21 AM PDT by RoarkMan (no tag line entered)
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To: dandelion
Not earthshaking, but it was a blatant violation of the rules.

He broke the rules, and if the press does not like people speculating, then it should be a simple thing for them to post the feed they say proves it was a pen.

And instead of demeaning the swift boat vets, how about asking Kerry why he didn't sign a form authorizing the Pentagon to release his records to prove their charges wrong. And for the love of God's truth why doesn't the press jump on Kerry when he falsely claims he released all his records?

I am getting sick and tired of the press demanding that we shut up and take their word for everything.

That being said, I bet that the NY Post is right, and it was just a pen.

92 posted on 10/04/2004 1:57:34 AM PDT by AndyTheBear (Jesus would have driven a pick up truck, like all the other carpenters.)
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To: kattracks

even if it was a pen, he still broke the rules...
and as innocuous as a pen might seem, it tells you that Kerry feels rules dont apply to him.


93 posted on 10/04/2004 2:06:58 AM PDT by donnab
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To: Route66

Someone on another thread thought he may have started with the paper in his right hand (not sure from where), while pulling something from his upper left pocket with his left hand.

When he turns the corner, it looks like something may be in his right hand ??

Not sure, just a thought.


94 posted on 10/04/2004 2:10:37 AM PDT by falpro
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To: kattracks

http://www.boston.com/news/special/politics/debate_video/sept29/7.html


a black pen?? look on the debate page here.....click on #7
"I can do better" ... make it FULL SCREEN....hes got a pen there alright but its a WHITE PEN....NO BLACK PEN....
I hope we hear more....because NOW we know HE DID take something out of his pocket AGAINST the RULES and if its SO INNOCENT where is a clear picture of it being a BLACK pen? its not..
liars ...


95 posted on 10/04/2004 2:15:39 AM PDT by ArmyBratCutie ("Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:soap, ballot, jury, ammo in this order!")
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To: igoramus987
NY Post is usually on our side. However, the reporter may not be.

You inspired me to do a google search on the author. He also writes for Salon.com.

96 posted on 10/04/2004 2:16:47 AM PDT by AndyTheBear (Jesus would have driven a pick up truck, like all the other carpenters.)
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To: igoramus987
The reporter is definitely a left winger. From a recent article her wrote on Bush's Failures in Iraq:

Like Vietnam, the military is again being asked to clean up the detritus of a failed foreign policy.

I smell bias and cover up.

97 posted on 10/04/2004 2:22:16 AM PDT by AndyTheBear (Jesus would have driven a pick up truck, like all the other carpenters.)
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To: jimboster

Are there any still shots of this?


98 posted on 10/04/2004 2:22:58 AM PDT by falpro
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To: kattracks

Well, let me add one more oddity to the discussion.

Why would a right handed person reach into his jacket with his left hand to retrieve a pen? A right handed person would carry the pen where he could reach it with his right hand wouldn't he? We are asked to believe that Kerry carries a pen in his right breast inner coat pocket, then has to reach in with his left hand, remove the pen, lay it on the desk so he could later pick it up with his right hand. Even a klutz like Kerry would be smoother than that.


99 posted on 10/04/2004 2:32:40 AM PDT by TN4Liberty (John Kerry has more positions than the Kama Sutra.)
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To: AndyTheBear
That being said, I bet that the NY Post is right, and it was just a pen.

After seeing the photos and researching the reporter, I am changing my bet.

100 posted on 10/04/2004 2:37:01 AM PDT by AndyTheBear (Jesus would have driven a pick up truck, like all the other carpenters.)
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