What if Israel Disappeared?

Insight ^ | October 8, 2004 | Michael Glueck

[Qatar-6]

First we have no "alliances" with Israel. Alliances are things like NATO

Second, my knowledge of history is very good

Third, I am not an anti semite - unless a refusal to believe in Israel's automatic correctness in everything they do qualifies me - in that case, I guess I am.

There are no "Do overs" in history. Had I a chance for a historic "Do Over" I would indeed advise president Truman against supporting the formation of the state of Israel

Just as George Catlett Marshall, in fact, did.

You may have heard of him, the greatest American soldier statesman of the 20th century. He was astute enough to see what would come of it. It's a pity Truman was ruled by sentimentality

But there are no "Do overs". Israel is a fact.

It is American money and backing that allows the Israelis to settle the west bank

We bankroll Israel and we do not leverage any check on their behavior

That Israel initially held the conquored territories as strategic depth made some sense through the 1980s.

However, once Israel developed nuclear weapons and satellite reconissance capability to augment their already robust human intelligence sources it became less important

Now strategic depth is measured in TIME not in distance. There's no way the Syrian Army or the Egyptian army could ever mobilize for war without Israel getting advanced warning. Your overall collection capability is too strong.

If they were nuts enough to try it again you'd be mobilized a long time before they would

In addition the technological disparity between the armies of Israel and its neighbors has grown even greater

In summary Israel is now militarily invincible in a conventional warfare sense and nearly impossible to surprise

From such a position of stregnth can peace be negotiated

Create a demiliterized Palestinian State on the west bank, rejoin Gaza to to Egypt using the same formula as Camp david (IE Siani returned in a demiliterized status). Negotiate the return of the Golan to Syrian control in a demiliterized status for a withdrawal of all Syrian forces from Lebanon.

Everybody go back to the 1967 borders and we'll try peace for a change

Instead we get settlement of the west bank and Palestinian aparthied

What did you expect them to do? Love you?

The justification for this is it was territory that was "rightfully won" (lebensraum anyone?) and that besides, "God gave it to us.....says so right here in the book".

To me you sound as crazy with god as the arabs

The occupation of the 1967 conquored territories of course Israel can do... they are a soverign nation after all. If they are willing to put up with the baggage they can do it.

But there's no logical reason that the United States should reflexively join itself to the hip on this question or to Israeli policy in general

If you don't think the billions of dollars the US sends Israel without any oversight whatsoever is not "pro Israel" I would like to know what in your mind constitutes pro-Israel?

Lastly I'm very calm and approaching this policy question as I was trained to do.

You are the one that is bringing up anti semitism and "Israel haters"

You still haven't provided a coherent answer as to why it is in the American's strategic interest to back Israel in the way that it has.

Kudos though, yours is civil discussion. Divest yourself of emotion though and look at it logically.

All the best

Qatar-6

[SauronOfMordor]

Has the coming of Christ has superseded the old covenant of God with the Jews? And insofar as the Jews do not accept the divinity of Christ, what is their standing vis a vis the Father? Which is the relevant covenant for our Jewish brethern?

Let me take a stab at it. The covenent was not unconditional -- it was a contract which could be voided for non-performance. From Deuteronomy:

8:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. 28:60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee. 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. 28:62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God. 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

From many passages, Jesus implied that Israel had not borne fruit, that they had not lived up to their end of the contract, and that He had arrived to set up a new covenant. See Matthew and the parable of the vinyard, along with the one that follows it:

21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

In Jesus time, Israel split in two directions. Some Jews, along with a lot of gentiles, formed Christianity. The rest went with the Pharisees, which evolved into modern Talmudic Judaism.

The above is a good summary of the "Replacement Theology" line of reasoning

[winodog]

But the Bible says all nations will rise up against Israel. The only way America will be a part of the army marching on Israel is if a kerry or hillary type take over and the 33%? of americans who would fight against fellow americans before they would march on Israel are gone.

This means a rapture or america pretty much ceases to have a army. That could happen if Russia,China,Iran,NK and maybe some nukes from Latin America destroy the USA. Or maybe the Yellowstone caldrea blows and the big earthquake along the Missisisppi is a 8.0 or higher devestates the eastern USA.

Maybe a meteor from space hits in the middle of the country and triggers earthquakes and volcananos but the bottom line is there will have to be some serious changes before the USA will march on Israel.

I agree that the Europeans are greasing the wheels of antisemitism again. The muslims are always ready to march. They just need someone with brains to get them to join together. Give it a couple years and China will lend a few million men to the muslims in exchange for oil. Of course they will plan on staying and taking over the oilfields once they get there. All we need is a reason for Russia to join the crusade.

[coincheck]

It is amazing, if you think about it, Jesus will have been here on earth for 1000 years, and people will still reject him. But this is to reveal that with out satan's influence, our heart is desparately wicked. read 1 cor. ch 15 for a good synopsis of what is to come, and romans ch 1 for why.

[coincheck]

I am at work now on break, I will get back to you when I get home with scriptural ref. of promises made and not yet fulfilled, it is a fact found in scripture that not all of the land that Israel was promised was taken, their boundries were at their largest under king david, but he had his problems with the philistines and syrians, to name a few. also remember that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem during the millenium so their will be an Israeli nation as well.

[sinatorhellary]

it is a fact found in scripture that not all of the land that Israel was promised was taken

Wrong. Josh 21:43 "So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it."

Jesus will rule from Jerusalem during the millenium

Wrong. Jesus is ruling now in Heaven.

Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16:28).

After Pentecost, the kingdom is spoken of as being established, not awaiting some future establishment. (Col. 1:13; Rev 1:4-6; Heb. 12:28)

Jesus is not coming again to establish His kingdom, but to deliver it up to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:23-26).

[Lord Nelson]

Truman had ZERO conviction and held back McCarthur when McCarthur could have crushed the Chinese.

Get your facts straight bub. Egypt also gets foreign aid from the US. Anti-Israelis like yourself like to ommit that.

I can't answer your question because you lack moral understanding. America backs Israel morally. Who should we back? Filthy Arab terrorists?

[Lord Nelson]

Yeah there are many like Qatar. They deny Jew hatred but we know them don't we. They cloak their anti-semitism in being only anti-Israels. Yet they judge Israel with standards far above any other nation.

Pitiless little Germany. Israel could squash them ants herself if she so desired.

[okie01]

"a spectrum of reasons ranging from lingering guilt at not preventing/curtailing The Holocaust"

I guarantee you less than 1% of Americans feel that way. It's a ridiculous sentiment isn't it? American worked very hard and made great sacrifices to end the holocaust. Americans are rightly proud of their efforts in WWII.

I'll echo VOA. I've known WW II vets who helped liberate the camps.

"My God! If we'd only known..." was a universal response -- a mixture of guilt and helplessness. Historically, we know that, even if they had known what the political leadership had only suspected, there was precious little more that could have been done. But the guilt was there, nonetheless.

Proud of their service and sacrifice, to be sure. But deeply troubled by their misbegotten sense of guilt, which they carried to their own graves.

Of course, I'm also speaking of Okies -- 45th Div Thunderbirds -- just as VOA presumably was.

Israel still has a lot of friends in the Bible Belt.

[Thinkin' Gal]

>Well...they [the Lost Tribes of Israel] certainly are somewhere...perhaps under our very noses...!

Could be!

Perhaps at the top of the [northern] cross which is also "underneath" the body of the hen near Deneb, the "tail".

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Chickens = a brood of young birds.

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

"that the House of Ephraim- the ten tribes who intermarried and lost their tribal identities- would eventually be re-united with the House of Judah. The Jewish people are obviously “the House of Judah,” and because the Church is composed primarily of Gentiles, some of whom have Israelite ancestry somewhere in their genealogy, the Church is presented as the obvious candidate for “the House of Ephraim” of end time prophecy.

note that when Paul touches on this topic in Romans 9, he quotes from Hosea a prophecy specifically given to the Northern tribes or "children of Israel" and applies it to "gentiles":

Romans 24-26
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Also note that Judah/Jews are included in Hosea's prophecy separately so there can be no misunderstanding as to who he meant (people love to confuse this issue- the whole first chapter of Hosea has to be read in context. I just included a small portion here).

Hos 1:7-11
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

ps. for extra bonus points do a little studying on "the day of Jezreel"

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

see 131

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

"...or america pretty much ceases to have a army. That could happen if Russia,China,Iran,NK and maybe some nukes from Latin America destroy the USA."

maybe 10 different countries will gang up (?)

[VOA]

"Israel still has a lot of friends in the Bible Belt."

Thanks for the back-up...you've done a good amplification of what I was trying to say.

[Jeremiah Jr]

Nebula - Clouds of Glory

[IAF ThunderPilot]

I often see today in the arab world the hateness for Israel and America, coming from low education and dictatorship leaders who are doing them plenty of brain wash. "Your problems will dissapear after Israel and/or United States will dissapear", in which such statements, the arab people dont think about the real problem which is their leaders. Now about Israel, the interesting part is that it has been going on since 1948, and they never were able to reach their goal- the destruction of Israel.
Today the voices in the mouslim world about wipping Israel from the map, are very similar to those of the 1967 before the Six Days War, and eaven in 1973 the Yom Kipur war they tried to sneak an attack which eventually failed once again. Today Israel is much stronger and ready than in 1973 or eaven than in 1967. Israel is listening to those voices (via Mossad, IDF elite forces, spy satellites etc), and another surprise war like of 1973 cannot happen. Therefore those who are questioning Israel's existment in the future or hoping to destroy it, should know that they will NEVER be able to reach their goal.
Israel is not going to dissapear anytime soon, you have my signature about it.