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Can men respect women if they're trained to be perverts?
WorldNetDaily ^ | 10/18/04 | Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

Posted on 10/18/2004 6:43:11 PM PDT by wagglebee

In a culture that sexualizes women constantly, the line between water-cooler chat and harassment is increasingly thin.

Bill O'Reilly, the conservative talk-show host whose "The O'Reilly Factor" is the highest-rated cable news show, has been sued for sexual harassment by his former producer Andrea Mackris. Mackris alleges that on many occasions, both in person and over the phone, O'Reilly engaged in lewd and lascivious conversation against her will. She goes so far as to state that O'Reilly unlawfully engaged in, and gratified himself with, phone sex, with Mackris on the other end of the line.

To be sure, O'Reilly enjoys the presumption of innocence in the suit, until proven otherwise. I personally respect and greatly enjoy O'Reilly as a broadcaster and I am sorry to see his public standing undermined by these allegations. While some of the content of Mackris' affidavit seems possible, readers of it will discover that other parts seem directed squarely at Roger Ailes, the chairman of the Fox News Channel, thereby undermining her credibility. Furthermore, Mackris does not explain why she didn't just hang up when O'Reilly allegedly harassed her repeatedly over the telephone.

Be that as it may, this sordid and sorry tale brings to the fore all that is wrong with our increasingly perverse culture. The question that the growing phenomenon of sexual harassment in the workplace raises is this: Can we really expect to have a healthy office environment, where men treat women as colleagues and intellectual equals, when everywhere else in the culture women are being so completely sexualized?

Is it realistic to ask men to separate what they see on television and in magazines from their interactions with women in the boardroom? With men being deluged in virtually every electronic medium with the message that women want to be recognized for their bodies rather than their brains, is it reasonable to expect that men will suddenly think differently the moment a woman dons a business suit?

Never in history have women been so sexually exploited as they are today.

College girls expose their breasts in exchange for a T-shirt on the "Girls Gone Wild" videos. MTV has transformed the women's music industry away from an emphasis on vocals and toward an emphasis of cleavage. Posters of Victoria's Secret models, dressed in thongs and the most revealing lingerie, line our mains thoroughfares, billboards and buses. Are men really expected to shut all this off the moment they stand in front of a copy machine?

Can we really expect a pure office environment to emerge from a degenerate culture? Indeed, in an environment where everything from the Internet to sporting events is sexualized, it even becomes difficult to determine what exactly constitutes harassment in the work place.

Let's see. If a man watches "Sex and the City" and, knowing that his female colleagues love the show, mentions at the water cooler how much he enjoyed the previous night's episode of Samantha giving a stranger oral sex, is it harassment? Or is it small talk?

And let's say a boss comes into the office after watching the Super Bowl and asks his secretary if she saw Janet Jackson's breast pop out during the half-time show, is he making lewd and inappropriate comments? What if a guy sees some new movie about sex and comments on the nude love scene – is that harassment? And if it is, can we at least recognize that we have made a huge portion of American culture off-limits in the workplace, because of how perversely sexualized it has become?

So that I am not misunderstood, let me make it clear that my purpose here is not to let men's boorish, and possibly illegal behavior, off the hook.

On the contrary. I wish that all men were gentlemen, behaving in a dignified and refined manner, especially around ladies. And I also wish that it didn't take the threat of legal action to get them to behave as gentlemen. Lewd comments on the part of lecherous men is the last thing that women should have to tolerate.

But let's acknowledge the incredibly mixed, contradictory and unfair signals that are being given to men. In life outside the office, men's lechery is encouraged in order to persuade men them to watch television or part with their cash. Near-naked twins sell them beer, women in thongs advertise the Miss America pageant, and Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera simulate masturbation in coming attractions for their shows on HBO and Showtime.

After being fed the idea in every corner of the culture that women primarily desire sexual attention, these men are expected to believe that women are going to be insulted, rather than complimented, by uncouth comments about their bodies.

What complicates the question of harassment is the fact that women are being subtly conditioned to use their sexuality to get ahead in the office. No less a branding genius than Donald Trump advised women on "The Apprentice" to play up their sexuality in commercial settings in order to gain power over men. Many women fall for this degrading advice by coming to the office dressed like streetwalkers. Dress codes today are considered outmoded and draconian, and fashion dictates that many women wear blouses cut very low and skirts cut very high. Yet men are expected not to notice. A woman's breasts can be spilling out of her blouse at a board-meeting, and men are expected to see her intelligence.

On my radio show, one man called in to say that there is a woman who works right across from his cubicle who wears see-through blouses nearly every day. "She's essentially wearing only a bra in the office, and I often have to put my hand in front of my face to block her out to stop myself from staring."

I am not blaming the victims or insinuating that women are inviting harassment. Far from it. No matter what they are exposed to and no matter how women dress, men must be in control of themselves and treat women as dignified and intellectual equals. I have never, and will never, excuse boorish behavior. But that does not change the fact that sexual harassment in the workplace is being vastly increased by a culture that both fosters the idea that women are primarily sexual objects, and that puts no emphasis on men and women dressing modestly and professionally.

And you can be sure that until such time that the sexual exploitation of women is reversed – and women reclaim their dignity by refusing to be portrayed on television and the Internet as the lecherous man's playthings – the number of women who have to suffer through male crudity is only going to increase.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: billoreilly; boteach; sexualharassment
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He makes some good points.
1 posted on 10/18/2004 6:43:11 PM PDT by wagglebee
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To: wagglebee

Speaking for myself, I can definetly love a woman who's been trained to be a pervert. (In fact I do, and I'm still training her!)


2 posted on 10/18/2004 6:47:06 PM PDT by Slump Tester (John Kerry - When even your best still isn't good enough)
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To: wagglebee

3 posted on 10/18/2004 6:47:12 PM PDT by knarf (A place where anyone can learn anything ... especially that which promotes clear thinking.)
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To: wagglebee

I was not trained to be a pervert.
I am self-taught.


4 posted on 10/18/2004 6:47:26 PM PDT by DefCon
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To: wagglebee
Never in history have women been so sexually exploited as they are today.

Like hell. I can't take anything he says seriously after making this statement.

5 posted on 10/18/2004 6:48:29 PM PDT by SteveMcKing
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To: wagglebee


Alot of good points....and I'm a woman.


6 posted on 10/18/2004 6:48:29 PM PDT by SouthernFreebird
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To: wagglebee

O'Reilly is no conservative. Never has been. Irrespective of this stuff, never will be. WND of all places should know this.


7 posted on 10/18/2004 6:48:41 PM PDT by swilhelm73 (Democrats and free speech are like oil and water)
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To: wagglebee

I think that he is spot on. Excellent article.


8 posted on 10/18/2004 6:49:12 PM PDT by Siamese Princess
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To: wagglebee

Who needs training? I call it testosterone poisoning.


9 posted on 10/18/2004 6:49:37 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: DefCon
I am wondering if Mackris has a bod underneath all of the clothes. That wasn't my fault, I was trainned to say that!
10 posted on 10/18/2004 6:50:09 PM PDT by Perdogg (Dubya - Right Man, Right Job, at the Right Time!)
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11 posted on 10/18/2004 6:50:17 PM PDT by TheBigB (OPEN YOUR EYES, Clark Kent! You belong with CHLOE!)
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To: DefCon

"I was not trained to be a pervert.
I am self-taught."

I consider myself to be a Natural.


12 posted on 10/18/2004 6:51:11 PM PDT by JustaCowgirl (Terrorists will "global test" us right off the planet)
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To: wagglebee

What I don't get is the incongruency of women.

One one hand they have more now than they ever have - they are open to explore different careers, they can make a lot of money, etc. They have proven that they are just as tough as any man in the work environment.

Yet, some of those same women seem to wilt if the conversation becomes off-color, or boorish. In times like this they revert to a 16th century 'delicate flower' posture - 'offended' by an off the cuff remark so much as to find the entire environement somewhat 'hostile' to them.

It's ironic that I think the average woman of the 1840s and 1950s, for example, appears to have been a whole lot tougher in matters like this. If a man began acting significantly less than a gentleman, a woman would quickly put him in place with a slap, and otherwise tell him that if he kept it up her brothers, boyfrined, or husband would come by and kick the crap out of him. Seems to me the pre-feminist woman handled these things a lot better.

You've come a long way, baby - wilting at the mention of a pee pee, pubic hair on a soda bottle, or heaven forbid, "I would have had a lot of fun with you two back in college!"


13 posted on 10/18/2004 6:51:22 PM PDT by HitmanLV (I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.)
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To: swilhelm73

The thing that impresses me the most about the O'Reilly case is that it gives a ray of hope for getting off Fox News.


14 posted on 10/18/2004 6:51:29 PM PDT by wagglebee (Benedict Arnold was for American independence before he was against it.)
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To: TheBigB
Here's one for our side, B...:

15 posted on 10/18/2004 6:52:49 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (I FINALLY updated my FReeper page! Click on my name and see how you can help our President!)
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To: wagglebee

Personally, there is BS on both sides of the bed. Harassment and Greed are the bed fellows today. There are decent men and women as well; but everyone knows how to deal with this stuff by now and it is painful to have to keep reading about it. I doubt if there are any innocents on either side of this case. It is a matter of money and how much the lawyer can make.


16 posted on 10/18/2004 6:52:58 PM PDT by Henchman (Kerry: No guts, No Glory, No way!)
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To: SteveMcKing
Someone should tell him that most models/actresses are not forced to pose/whatever at gunpoint. Most of the time, a person is "exploited" because that person allows the "exploitation."

The feminazis did young women no favors by their silence over the Bubba/Monica affair.

17 posted on 10/18/2004 6:53:07 PM PDT by Paul Atreides
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To: wagglebee
I believe a similar case can be made about the difficulties of life today in the USA for the average male.

Besides, isn't it odd that identical behavior by the same person on different days can be harassment on one day and welcomed on another, depending on how that person 'feels'. What kind of legal system bases the judgment of whether or not a crime has been committed on 'feelings'?
18 posted on 10/18/2004 6:53:11 PM PDT by ml1954 (Kerry, A Legend In His Own Mind.)
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To: SteveMcKing
Like hell. I can't take anything he says seriously after making this statement.

Interesting documentary on the History Channel about Sex in the Civil War last night...FOURTEEN whorehouses on the current site of the FBI building in DC during the War; the site of the IRS was also a solid mass of bordellos.

Also read a bunch of letters from soldiers to their male friends (you normally only see the touching letters written to wives in documentaries)...hilarious....tons of references to how much f***ing they were doing, etc.

19 posted on 10/18/2004 6:54:17 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: wagglebee; GatorGirl; maryz; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; livius; ...

Ping.


20 posted on 10/18/2004 6:54:23 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. + http://www.alamo-girl.com/)
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To: wagglebee

There is this old fashioned concept called SELF CONTROL. No one is putting a gun to the head of any man to watch TV shows or drool after a woman.


21 posted on 10/18/2004 6:55:13 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: SteveMcKing

I agree with ya. Perhaps the Rabbi should consider the case of Solomon for instance.


22 posted on 10/18/2004 6:55:15 PM PDT by Busywhiskers (Non entia multiplicandia sunt prater necessetatum. William Occam)
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To: SteveMcKing

If there's any pervert-exploiting going undone, where do I volunteer?


23 posted on 10/18/2004 6:55:31 PM PDT by Kiss Me Hardy
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To: Strategerist
the site of the IRS was also a solid mass of bordellos.

How appropriate. I can't call it an improvement, though.

24 posted on 10/18/2004 6:55:56 PM PDT by TheBigB (OPEN YOUR EYES, Clark Kent! You belong with CHLOE!)
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To: RandallFlagg

#15 she's not too original nor does she look very bright or attractive for that matter.


25 posted on 10/18/2004 6:56:44 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Strategerist
"...FOURTEEN whorehouses on the current site of the FBI building in DC during the War; the site of the IRS was also a solid mass of bordellos"

The more things change...

26 posted on 10/18/2004 6:57:32 PM PDT by proust
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To: DefCon

This woman looks like a Pilgrim or Amish?


27 posted on 10/18/2004 6:57:48 PM PDT by missyme
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To: knarf

Is that the woman that O'Rielly supposedly "sexually harassed?" You've got to be kidding me...a media giant line O'Rielly is so hard up that his target is the frumpy spinster librarian from "Leave It To Beaver"?

I wondered if the story might have a morsel of truth in it when I first read the news. But now that I've seen this girl, I don't believe it for a minute.


28 posted on 10/18/2004 6:59:30 PM PDT by RavenATB
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To: SoDak
Born and raised to be a professional, and proud of it. ;)
29 posted on 10/18/2004 7:00:09 PM PDT by codyjacksmom (Attention All Girlie-men...Please don't forget your foo foo's on the way out the door.)
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To: wagglebee
Is the author of this article Michael Jackson's rabbi?

Didn't he defend Wacko Jacko against charges of child molestation, and doesn't he (at least pretend) to think that Wacko Jacko is just a regular guy?

While this rabbi makes good points in his article, he also has "stars in his eyes." When he sees a celeb, he forgets all his good points.

30 posted on 10/18/2004 7:00:47 PM PDT by Commie Basher
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To: nmh

My late father had a phrase that fits: "ugly as a mud fence."


31 posted on 10/18/2004 7:01:06 PM PDT by RavenATB
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To: wagglebee

The wild thing is that the guy with the see-through colleague can't prosecute HER for harrassment.....or he's thought to be gay.

In reality, women will always be marginalized, unless they dress so asexually that men never think of them that way. But then they will thought of as not quite human either.

But then again, they always get custody.


32 posted on 10/18/2004 7:01:55 PM PDT by Turk82_1 (They also serve who merely stand and wait.)
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To: RandallFlagg

....nice watch....


33 posted on 10/18/2004 7:02:20 PM PDT by RavenATB
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To: RavenATB

And shoes....


34 posted on 10/18/2004 7:03:07 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (I FINALLY updated my FReeper page! Click on my name and see how you can help our President!)
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To: RavenATB

I'm sorry ... he had a good phrase. It fits.


35 posted on 10/18/2004 7:03:27 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: wagglebee
We've become conditioned to being bombarded with sexual imagery, which is degrading to both men and women. I think it accounts for a lot of sexual dysfunction, too---not to mention problems between the sexes.

When I look at the images coming out of Hollywood, I feel sad. It's sad that we can't aspire to something better. Our society has become very crude and crass.

36 posted on 10/18/2004 7:04:15 PM PDT by Innisfree
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To: HitmanNY
If a man began acting significantly less than a gentleman, a woman would quickly put him in place with a slap, and otherwise tell him that if he kept it up her brothers, boyfrined, or husband would come by and kick the crap out of him. Seems to me the pre-feminist woman handled these things a lot better.

You see that attitude in BRAM STOKER'S DRACULA. Francis Ford Coppola went to great lengths, doing much research and even couching the extras, to create a proper Victorian atmosphere regarding sex.

When Dracula (Gary Oldman) follows Mina (Winona Ryder) on the street, trying to talk to her, Mina indignantly asks, "Shall I call the police? Shall I tell my husband?"

Dracula replies, "Husband! Forgive me, I did not know. I shall bother you no further."

37 posted on 10/18/2004 7:05:05 PM PDT by Commie Basher
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To: HitmanNY

There you go again, Hitman. You possess uncanny insight into matters concerning relationships between men and women. I'm moving to Las Vegas in the Spring. Ready to start production on the show? :o)


38 posted on 10/18/2004 7:06:15 PM PDT by arasina (So there.)
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To: wagglebee

We have a gal at work who is ..well unpolished. I like her and all, but she is rather crude.

That doesnt bother me. Hell Im an old salior.

What does bother me is that a good man that works for us was tagged by her for sexual harrasment.

He was only playing to her lead on jokes and was not trying to get "IN" with her. Hell He is 2 years from retirement and married


39 posted on 10/18/2004 7:06:38 PM PDT by mylife (The roar of the masses could be farts)
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To: Commie Basher

I thought he said to her, "Excuse me Miss, did you pay for that?" ;)


40 posted on 10/18/2004 7:07:41 PM PDT by TheBigB (OPEN YOUR EYES, Clark Kent! You belong with CHLOE!)
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To: mylife

It happens all the time.


41 posted on 10/18/2004 7:08:01 PM PDT by wagglebee (Benedict Arnold was for American independence before he was against it.)
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To: wagglebee
Any man in America who makes any sexual references whatsoever in an office environment is asking for trouble. Males in positions of responsibility have to be absolutely above reproach because any utterance can be used to deprive him of his career and life.
42 posted on 10/18/2004 7:08:05 PM PDT by spodefly (I've posted nothing but BTTT over 1000 times!!!)
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To: Perdogg

Between her and a falafel I'll take, umm, hmm...gimme a sec..


43 posted on 10/18/2004 7:08:56 PM PDT by dandi (Spitting pseudonymous venom.)
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To: missyme

What woman?


44 posted on 10/18/2004 7:09:04 PM PDT by DefCon
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To: wagglebee

I know.. we all know.

She was tagged after that.

But now shes married an exec and is golden again


45 posted on 10/18/2004 7:10:06 PM PDT by mylife (The roar of the masses could be farts)
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To: DefCon

Post 3


46 posted on 10/18/2004 7:10:42 PM PDT by missyme
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To: wagglebee
Furthermore, Mackris does not explain why she didn't just hang up when O'Reilly allegedly harassed her repeatedly over the telephone.

That is what jumped out at me. It sounds like she stayed on the line for extended periods of time.

47 posted on 10/18/2004 7:10:55 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: HitmanNY
It's ironic that I think the average woman of the 1840s and 1950s, for example, appears to have been a whole lot tougher in matters like this. If a man began acting significantly less than a gentleman, a woman would quickly put him in place with a slap, and otherwise tell him that if he kept it up her brothers, boyfrined, or husband would come by and kick the crap out of him. Seems to me the pre-feminist woman handled these things a lot better.

Hell, that's how I handled things all weekend.
48 posted on 10/18/2004 7:11:04 PM PDT by Xenalyte (Chain mail is a privilege, not a right.)
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To: missyme

What about it?


49 posted on 10/18/2004 7:12:04 PM PDT by DefCon
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To: Xenalyte

Never any doubts in our minds (although some might actually have enjoyed it)....

What? That wasn't me. nevermind...going away now....


50 posted on 10/18/2004 7:13:06 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (I FINALLY updated my FReeper page! Click on my name and see how you can help our President!)
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