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Can men respect women if they're trained to be perverts?
WorldNetDaily ^ | 10/18/04 | Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

Posted on 10/18/2004 6:43:11 PM PDT by wagglebee

In a culture that sexualizes women constantly, the line between water-cooler chat and harassment is increasingly thin.

Bill O'Reilly, the conservative talk-show host whose "The O'Reilly Factor" is the highest-rated cable news show, has been sued for sexual harassment by his former producer Andrea Mackris. Mackris alleges that on many occasions, both in person and over the phone, O'Reilly engaged in lewd and lascivious conversation against her will. She goes so far as to state that O'Reilly unlawfully engaged in, and gratified himself with, phone sex, with Mackris on the other end of the line.

To be sure, O'Reilly enjoys the presumption of innocence in the suit, until proven otherwise. I personally respect and greatly enjoy O'Reilly as a broadcaster and I am sorry to see his public standing undermined by these allegations. While some of the content of Mackris' affidavit seems possible, readers of it will discover that other parts seem directed squarely at Roger Ailes, the chairman of the Fox News Channel, thereby undermining her credibility. Furthermore, Mackris does not explain why she didn't just hang up when O'Reilly allegedly harassed her repeatedly over the telephone.

Be that as it may, this sordid and sorry tale brings to the fore all that is wrong with our increasingly perverse culture. The question that the growing phenomenon of sexual harassment in the workplace raises is this: Can we really expect to have a healthy office environment, where men treat women as colleagues and intellectual equals, when everywhere else in the culture women are being so completely sexualized?

Is it realistic to ask men to separate what they see on television and in magazines from their interactions with women in the boardroom? With men being deluged in virtually every electronic medium with the message that women want to be recognized for their bodies rather than their brains, is it reasonable to expect that men will suddenly think differently the moment a woman dons a business suit?

Never in history have women been so sexually exploited as they are today.

College girls expose their breasts in exchange for a T-shirt on the "Girls Gone Wild" videos. MTV has transformed the women's music industry away from an emphasis on vocals and toward an emphasis of cleavage. Posters of Victoria's Secret models, dressed in thongs and the most revealing lingerie, line our mains thoroughfares, billboards and buses. Are men really expected to shut all this off the moment they stand in front of a copy machine?

Can we really expect a pure office environment to emerge from a degenerate culture? Indeed, in an environment where everything from the Internet to sporting events is sexualized, it even becomes difficult to determine what exactly constitutes harassment in the work place.

Let's see. If a man watches "Sex and the City" and, knowing that his female colleagues love the show, mentions at the water cooler how much he enjoyed the previous night's episode of Samantha giving a stranger oral sex, is it harassment? Or is it small talk?

And let's say a boss comes into the office after watching the Super Bowl and asks his secretary if she saw Janet Jackson's breast pop out during the half-time show, is he making lewd and inappropriate comments? What if a guy sees some new movie about sex and comments on the nude love scene – is that harassment? And if it is, can we at least recognize that we have made a huge portion of American culture off-limits in the workplace, because of how perversely sexualized it has become?

So that I am not misunderstood, let me make it clear that my purpose here is not to let men's boorish, and possibly illegal behavior, off the hook.

On the contrary. I wish that all men were gentlemen, behaving in a dignified and refined manner, especially around ladies. And I also wish that it didn't take the threat of legal action to get them to behave as gentlemen. Lewd comments on the part of lecherous men is the last thing that women should have to tolerate.

But let's acknowledge the incredibly mixed, contradictory and unfair signals that are being given to men. In life outside the office, men's lechery is encouraged in order to persuade men them to watch television or part with their cash. Near-naked twins sell them beer, women in thongs advertise the Miss America pageant, and Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera simulate masturbation in coming attractions for their shows on HBO and Showtime.

After being fed the idea in every corner of the culture that women primarily desire sexual attention, these men are expected to believe that women are going to be insulted, rather than complimented, by uncouth comments about their bodies.

What complicates the question of harassment is the fact that women are being subtly conditioned to use their sexuality to get ahead in the office. No less a branding genius than Donald Trump advised women on "The Apprentice" to play up their sexuality in commercial settings in order to gain power over men. Many women fall for this degrading advice by coming to the office dressed like streetwalkers. Dress codes today are considered outmoded and draconian, and fashion dictates that many women wear blouses cut very low and skirts cut very high. Yet men are expected not to notice. A woman's breasts can be spilling out of her blouse at a board-meeting, and men are expected to see her intelligence.

On my radio show, one man called in to say that there is a woman who works right across from his cubicle who wears see-through blouses nearly every day. "She's essentially wearing only a bra in the office, and I often have to put my hand in front of my face to block her out to stop myself from staring."

I am not blaming the victims or insinuating that women are inviting harassment. Far from it. No matter what they are exposed to and no matter how women dress, men must be in control of themselves and treat women as dignified and intellectual equals. I have never, and will never, excuse boorish behavior. But that does not change the fact that sexual harassment in the workplace is being vastly increased by a culture that both fosters the idea that women are primarily sexual objects, and that puts no emphasis on men and women dressing modestly and professionally.

And you can be sure that until such time that the sexual exploitation of women is reversed – and women reclaim their dignity by refusing to be portrayed on television and the Internet as the lecherous man's playthings – the number of women who have to suffer through male crudity is only going to increase.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: billoreilly; boteach; sexualharassment
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To: Xenalyte

Hey, you were also armed. An edged weapon can do a lot of convincing.


51 posted on 10/18/2004 7:13:22 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (The real Kerry-Edwards election slogan: "Attacked at Home, ridiculed abroad.")
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To: DefCon

What I said earlier she has a puritan pilgrim look to her..

Like she might be a bit of a pansy..


52 posted on 10/18/2004 7:13:53 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

Why do you have your foot up on the kitchen counter?


53 posted on 10/18/2004 7:13:57 PM PDT by DefCon
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To: wagglebee
I am not blaming the victims or insinuating that women are inviting harassment. Far from it. No matter what they are exposed to and no matter how women dress, men must be in control of themselves and treat women as dignified and intellectual equals.

Uhm... he makes some good points but this is not one of them. Women who dress like sluts are indeed inviting harassment. JMHO.

54 posted on 10/18/2004 7:14:40 PM PDT by wizardoz ("Crikey! I've lost my mojo!")
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To: wagglebee
Is it realistic to ask men to separate what they see on television and in magazines from their interactions with women in the boardroom?

Of course it is. And likewise, women can distinguish between their coworkers and the rippling six-packs they see in magazines.

55 posted on 10/18/2004 7:17:06 PM PDT by ellery (Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: wagglebee
On my radio show, one man called in to say that there is a woman who works right across from his cubicle who wears see-through blouses nearly every day. "She's essentially wearing only a bra in the office, and I often have to put my hand in front of my face to block her out to stop myself from staring."

Well, then I guess women will have to start wearing burkas in order to protect themselves from the glares of men, right?

56 posted on 10/18/2004 7:17:28 PM PDT by Born in a Rage
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To: swilhelm73
You tell'em bud.

Russert, Mathews, and O'Reilly are Democraps to the bone. Big show about selling "fairness." But when the chips are down these creeps go Democrat all the way.

If they really wanted to be "fair." they woulkd admit that up front. of the three, Russert approaches the closest to honesty, of the three, O'Reilly is the dumbest, and of the three the biggest toad is matthews.

57 posted on 10/18/2004 7:17:40 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk
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Comment #58 Removed by Moderator

To: DefCon

What??


59 posted on 10/18/2004 7:18:40 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

You girls are so catty to each other !
I can't look at her and tell if she is amish !
And - to call her a 'pansy'? - I'm shocked !
I was kinda getting the hots for her before you said that.


60 posted on 10/18/2004 7:18:44 PM PDT by DefCon
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To: knarf

She counter-sued AFTER O'Reilly brought his extortion charges, correct?

Get aload of that turtle neck! LOL

She's got no case.

61 posted on 10/18/2004 7:18:49 PM PDT by perfect stranger (The Hummer is a regular Pat Buchanan on wheels." PJ O'Rourke from C&D magazine)
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To: Born in a Rage

You know, there are options between burka and see-through blouse.


62 posted on 10/18/2004 7:18:51 PM PDT by wizardoz ("Crikey! I've lost my mojo!")
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To: ml1954

Two words: Hate crime.
Two more: Racial discrimination

Both of these are predicated on how a person feels...in the first, the perp...the second, the 'victim'


63 posted on 10/18/2004 7:19:01 PM PDT by Turk82_1 (They also serve who merely stand and wait.)
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To: missyme

It's on yo' pro-file page !


64 posted on 10/18/2004 7:19:59 PM PDT by DefCon
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To: missyme

Uh, guys, if we just look at her from a physical standpoint, I think she's quite attractive. She's in pretty conservative dress that's for sure, but she's not "ugly as a mud fence". Let the hair down a little and put a smile on her and she would be quite pleasant to look at.

Man... you'd think you guys were describing Rosie or something...


65 posted on 10/18/2004 7:20:41 PM PDT by Advil
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To: DefCon

LOL! Forgot about that..Was at my sister's and she said she wanted to see how high my heels were...


66 posted on 10/18/2004 7:21:18 PM PDT by missyme
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To: Advil

If I had a couple more white russians, I'd hit it.


67 posted on 10/18/2004 7:21:40 PM PDT by DefCon
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To: Advil

I agree. I've seen uglier. And looks aren't everything.


68 posted on 10/18/2004 7:21:44 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (I FINALLY updated my FReeper page! Click on my name and see how you can help our President!)
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To: wagglebee
College girls expose their breasts in exchange for a T-shirt

Wish I had known about this T-shirt trick when I was in school.

69 posted on 10/18/2004 7:23:00 PM PDT by razorback-bert
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To: Advil

Ok, and just so no one think's I'm nuts, I just saw the other pics of her a few posts up from here. Definately not too attractive in those. But heck, in those side by side shots she doesn't even look like the same person.

Multiple personalities maybe? ;)


70 posted on 10/18/2004 7:23:08 PM PDT by Advil
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To: Xenalyte

we would be ashamed to hear anything differently from you, x...




unless it was challenge to swordplay.


71 posted on 10/18/2004 7:23:40 PM PDT by AFPhys ((.Praying for President Bush, our troops, their families, and all my American neighbors..))
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To: razorback-bert

Well, I can tell you it doesn't work at the office...


72 posted on 10/18/2004 7:23:51 PM PDT by TheBigB (OPEN YOUR EYES, Clark Kent! You belong with CHLOE!)
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To: wagglebee; shaggy eel; Indie; longtermmemmory; Palladin
"Never in history have women been so sexually exploited as they are today."

Oh, please, gimme a break, Boteach. And calling all women, "ladies," unconditionally?

O'Reilly's a perv.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1248508/posts?page=155#155

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1248508/posts?page=153#153

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1248508/posts?page=148#148

and leans way to the left.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1247815/posts?page=223#223

Recently, he's been complaining for Kerry regarding the SBVT and Sinclair Broadcasting.

He's not one of us, but Schmuley does make a good point, in a twisted feminazi kind of way, against promiscuity.

...too romantic in the Henry Beecher sense. And romanticism in relationships is what got us into trouble in the first place, way back in the days of ankle-length dresses.
73 posted on 10/18/2004 7:23:55 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: razorback-bert

College girls expose their breasts in exchange for a T-shirt...
Wish I had known about this T-shirt trick when I was in school....
- - -
Yeah, the exchange rate USED to be dinner and a movie.


74 posted on 10/18/2004 7:24:43 PM PDT by DefCon
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To: Advil

Actually, if you follow the chain back, the guy was saying that Anna Kournikova is "ugly as a mud fence."


75 posted on 10/18/2004 7:25:00 PM PDT by Rastus (Forget it, Moby! I'm voting for Bush!)
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To: RandallFlagg

It's the look on her face like she is trying to protray a puritan look like I'm a fragile pansy that is about to wilt..,


76 posted on 10/18/2004 7:26:00 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

Oh, I get what you're saying.

Cute kitty on your FReeper page.


77 posted on 10/18/2004 7:26:56 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (I FINALLY updated my FReeper page! Click on my name and see how you can help our President!)
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To: Henchman
but everyone knows how to deal with this stuff by now and it is painful to have to keep reading about it.

One day a few years ago, my boss came back from lunch very very drunk (a perfectly normal event). I noticed him coming out of a woman's office about a minute before I went in to talk to her. I found her absolutely livid.

Because we were good friends, she talked to me about what had happened, though she swore me to slience. My boss (who was not her boss) had hit on her using language that she described as "filthy." This woman was no prude. She was not at all offended by the proposition itself, but the crudeness of it offended her deeply.

I tried to convince her to file sexual harrassment charges against him, but she had 2 worries. 1) It would be very bad for the company. Some people would take his side, some would take hers, there would be open warfare (I would have been on her side, against my boss. It would have been very hard). and 2) Her boyfriend, who also worked for the company, would bring his shotgun to work and it would be very messy.

Instead, she just spent the next year or so until she found another job, saying NO to every request - work related or not - that my boss made of her.

Tell me again that everyone knows how to deal with this?

78 posted on 10/18/2004 7:27:11 PM PDT by irv
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To: perfect stranger

do her lips ever move?


79 posted on 10/18/2004 7:28:00 PM PDT by wallcrawlr ( W-innesota)
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To: SteveMcKing
Never in history have women been so sexually exploited as they are today.

The author of that statement obviously knows nothing about history.

80 posted on 10/18/2004 7:28:37 PM PDT by The_Media_never_lie
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To: wagglebee

Oh, and Schmuley, bother to notice the way the chick dresses--darned near up to her chin. Male feminists like Bill will try to get up a woman's dress no matter what she wears. And the rest of the Homer Simpsons in our rotten society will cheer them on. That is, until someone like Bill tries to get in Homer's daughter's panties.


81 posted on 10/18/2004 7:29:29 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: wagglebee
She goes so far as to state that O'Reilly unlawfully engaged in, and gratified himself with, phone sex, with Mackris on the other end of the line.

So why the hell didn't she hang up the phone????

82 posted on 10/18/2004 7:31:14 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: spodefly

"Any man in America who makes any sexual references whatsoever in an office environment is asking for trouble."

This is absolutely true. And any man with any sense who has ever worked in the corporate world knows it. This is why I initially thought this entire harassment charge was bull. I could not imagine O'Reilly, with a pretty wife and kid, being this dumb.

At this point, Im willing to concede that there was probably some consenual aspect to this.

But the harassment is still bull. I do not think a smart, accomplished career woman from New York, a tough competitive town, especially in the media biz, would be vicitmized as she claims. A woman who has been around the block more than once knows how to handle an agressive, boorish type like O'Reilly, and, keep her job. Women...am I wrong?

Now, reading transcripts of the lawyers statements...it is obvious this is a major hit effort on Fox, with Soros and /or the DNC probably footing the bill.

If its a political hit job, there wont be any incentive for Mackris to settle out of court early on. We'll see.


83 posted on 10/18/2004 7:31:15 PM PDT by Dat Mon (clever tagline under construction)
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To: irv

People have dealth with worst things..I use to work in a hospital Emergency Department. One Doc was a Major Coke head, he would be doing lines of cocaine in his private office while the ER had rape patients drug overdoses and when we would all scream at him to get his as--s out there he would cuss the whole department out..

He went on to be a Medical Commentator on a L.A news channel


84 posted on 10/18/2004 7:33:18 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

Well, at least he's only BSing people rather than examining them.


85 posted on 10/18/2004 7:34:51 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (I FINALLY updated my FReeper page! Click on my name and see how you can help our President!)
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To: DefCon

Woman: "Ohhh, you were so good in bed last night..."
Benny Hill: "Thanks! I taught myself..."

86 posted on 10/18/2004 7:34:52 PM PDT by weegee (Ted Kennedy, your brother defined Vietnam antiwar protesters as traitors, giving aid to Ho Chi Mihn)
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To: RandallFlagg

That's Zorro! :)


87 posted on 10/18/2004 7:34:52 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

"Zorro"?!

I love it!


88 posted on 10/18/2004 7:35:28 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (I FINALLY updated my FReeper page! Click on my name and see how you can help our President!)
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To: Kenny Bunk

Well, I wouldn't say O'Reilly is a liberal either.

He's leftwing on some issues, rightwing on others.

This is a textbook, real, centerist.


89 posted on 10/18/2004 7:35:37 PM PDT by swilhelm73 (Democrats and free speech are like oil and water)
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To: Turk82_1

Two words: Hate crime.

Two more: Racial discrimination

Both of these are predicated on how a person feels...in the first, the perp...the second, the 'victim'

I somewhat agree with the first. The second I have some question with. What really bothers me about the first is behavior is often a crime regardless of the 'feelings' of the victim, but the degree of the crime and the punishment is greater depending on the victim's ethnicity.

I'm not a lawyer and don't want to get into legal definitions, but to me 'sexual harassment' is truly unique. The exact same exclusively VERBAL behavior by the exact same person toward exactly the same other person can on one day be 'harassment' and on another be not only okay but welcomed and encouraged (or as in Arnold's words, 'playful'), depending on the feelings of 'victim'.

90 posted on 10/18/2004 7:37:59 PM PDT by ml1954 (Kerry, A Legend In His Own Mind.)
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To: RandallFlagg

Lot's of Crazy things go on in hospitals

3:am in an ER with Doc's Nurses and Cops anything is possible..,


91 posted on 10/18/2004 7:38:08 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme
People have dealth with worst things.

Sure. My only point was that it can be pretty hard. Personally, I thought she should have pressed charges on the SOB and let the chips fall where they may.

92 posted on 10/18/2004 7:38:17 PM PDT by irv
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To: wagglebee
Bill Clinton, "Depends on what your definition of words are.. hah hah hah.."
93 posted on 10/18/2004 7:39:14 PM PDT by SunnySide
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To: weegee

I used to laugh my ass off watching Benny Hill.


94 posted on 10/18/2004 7:39:17 PM PDT by DefCon
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To: missyme

I have a hard enough time with these 12-hour shifts. I've heard of 16-18-hour shifts in the medical profession.

YIKES!


95 posted on 10/18/2004 7:39:48 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (I FINALLY updated my FReeper page! Click on my name and see how you can help our President!)
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To: wagglebee

There are certain women at work I will not even talk too. I ignore them. It is the only safe thing to do. And I'll not be offering them any slots in my department either. I trust my judgment of character, everytime. I have enought problems without having to deal with the her-ass crap.


96 posted on 10/18/2004 7:41:07 PM PDT by glasseye
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To: wagglebee

Can women respect men when they are constantly portrayed as ignorant, stupid, self-centered, sex obsessed morons in sitcoms?


97 posted on 10/18/2004 7:42:03 PM PDT by ml1954 (Kerry, A Legend In His Own Mind.)
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To: RandallFlagg

Night Shifts are always a different working world then day timers..You learn to put up with alot when you have only had 4 hrs sleep!


98 posted on 10/18/2004 7:44:49 PM PDT by missyme
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To: ml1954

"Can women respect men when they are constantly portrayed as ignorant, stupid, self-centered, sex obsessed morons in sitcoms?"

Only if and when the male writers stop writing the characters in such ways. (hmmm)



99 posted on 10/18/2004 7:45:07 PM PDT by SunnySide
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To: Strategerist
...the site of the IRS was also a solid mass of bordellos.

What a shame when a neighborhood deteriorates.

100 posted on 10/18/2004 7:45:38 PM PDT by Ken H
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