Skip to comments.Is It Morally Acceptable To Hope Anyone Goes To Hell?
Posted on 12/06/2004 12:44:58 PM PST by Lindykim
"Is it morally and theologically acceptable to hope anyone goes to hell? ... One...need not be a conservative Christian to believe in some form of hell for the evil. All one need be is a rational believer in a just God. For if there is a just God, it is inconceivable that those who do evil and those who do good have identical fates. A just God must care about justice, and since there is little justice in this world, there has to be in the next. And belief in the next world is also not confined to Christianity. As the Encyclopedia Judaica ... (edited largely by non-religious Jews) notes in the first sentence under the heading 'Afterlife,' 'Judaism has always believed in an afterlife.' ... Much of humanity has been adversely affected by modern-day terror. The lives of millions -- virtually all Palestinians and Israelis, for example -- have been terribly affected by Arafat. And there are hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been destroyed or shattered by him. At the same time, other than a few sycophants enriched by some of the billions of dollars he embezzled from the Palestinians, no one has had a better life because Yasser Arafat lived. ... Yasser Arafat single-handedly made nihilistic acts of cruelty routine, even respectable. ... Thanks to him, the Palestinian name is identified among people of goodwill with barbarity just as the German name came to be associated with barbarity as a result of Hitler. ... Just as any decent human being would want good people to be rewarded in whatever existence there is after this life, they would want the cruelest of people to be punished. So, of course, I hope Yasser Arafat is in hell. ... If you think that is hard-hearted, consider the alternative, that one of the most corrupt and cruel human beings of the past half-century is resting in peace. Whoever isn't bothered by that is the one with the hard heart." --Dennis Prager
Well I think we see that in the parable of the prodical son. It is a parable as much as the wild son as the "obedient" other brother and his resentment of getting the same reward for his faithfulness.
Also in the parable of the owner of the vineyard that hired men at the beggining middle and end of the day and paid them all the same wage, because that is what was the agreed price and the OWNER has chosen what price to offer.
Yes the battle of my will and flesh vs. Gods grace. I am sure we will be humbled when we review the game films and he shows us how much grace we actually needed to be there.
In Catholic theology, Purgatory is a place or state in which the deceased who have not done sufficent penance for their sins in this life go to finish their penance.
Purgatory is temporary and will cease to exist at the Last Judgment.
The classical Scriptural locus for is 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.
Benedicere cor tuo! Quomodo cogis comas tuas sic videri?
My "Notorious North Carolina Niceness Nazi" signature line: Bless your heart! How did you get your hair to do THAT?!?
No. This question reminds me of that so-called pastor, Fred Phelps. He and his hate-filled minions have gone to funerals of gay people just to torment the families with signs saying such things as, "God Hates F*gs" and "Your son is burning in hell".
In my opinion, Phelps is one of the most disgusting pieces of human detritus imaginable. I can't help but hope that he receives God's justice, but I stop short of presuming to know what that is.
Even the worst of the worst!
Probably not; I'll have to ask for forgiveness.
I always thought that we couldnt do enough penance for our sins so Jesus had to die. So if Jesus died for our sins wouldn't that nulify the need for a purgatory?
(Lat. praesumere, "to take before", "to take for granted").
Presumption is here considered as a vice opposed to the theological virtue of hope. It may also be regarded as a product of pride. It may be defined as the condition of a soul which, because of a badly regulated reliance on God's mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them. Presumption is said to offend against hope by excess, as despair by defect. It will be obvious, however, to one who ponders what is meant by hope, that this statement is not exact. There is only a certain analogy which justifies it. As a matter of fact we could not hope too much, assuming that it is really the supernatural habit which is in question.
I cannot bear to think
What He went through that day
When they nailed Him to that wooden cross
As His Mother knelt to pray.
Did He shout with words of anger,
Did He struggle, did He fight
Or did he turn His eyes toward Heaven
To His Father and the light.
He didn't cry for vengeance,
As His body filled with pain
He didn't beg for mercy
As His life began to wane.
I picture His sweet Mother
As at His feet she knelt
Such suffering and anguish
Imagine how she felt.
With one last burst of strength
He spoke these words so true,
"Forgive them Father
For they know not what they do."
No need to wish someone would go to hell. They make that decision for themselves.
My mistake. I thought you went to purgatory for pounding a quarter on the bar and yelling "Bar keep! Bar keep!" Easy mistake, since purgatory, I am told, looks remarkably like one of those theme bars in an airport. The bartender, a fifty year old recovering alcoholic wears a button on his uniform suspenders that says, "Ask me about hell!"
Ask David via Psalms.
Muslims believe that our good and bad deeds are weighed on a scale on judgement day and that this determines where we spend eternity.
You asked, "In James it says the demons believe,,,,are they saved?".
In eternity past the demons choose to side with Satan.
What the heck????
Are you feeling ok?
I've always imagined Purgatory as a golf course.
A lot is left out here. Anyone can say they believe on Him, but those who are regenerated (born again) are saved. Remember Christ's words to Nicodemus in John 3:3.
Being born again is an absolute must.
You asked, "In James it says the demons believe,,,,are they saved?".
In eternity past the demons choose to side with Satan.
So I guess it is more than just belief..I guess it would be a choice to obey as well.......
Heh... you never met my ex-wife.
"To hope that someone is damned is to hope that God judges him worthy of such damnation."
Precisely. In my mind, wrong or not, I hope that some deeds would be considered worse than others. I know that a sin is a sin, but how can one compare say, taking the Lord's name in vain and murder as being equivalents. I hope that one who leads a genuinely good life, and one who has been a dreadful human being and unrepentant before death, do not have the same fate. I would agree that one who has been truly repentant should recieve mercy, but what about those who do not? I know most will say that it is not for us to judge, and I suppose it isn't, but in my line of reasoning, if there is a Hell, then the terrorists should be there.
Consider though, when one dies and is fortunate enough to make it to heaven, once there, I doubt any care is taken in who is or isn't present in heaven. No more worries. These contemplations about Hell are for the minds of the living and fearful to ponder.
Strictly speaking, it is neither our decision nor our wish. We go about our own lives and do our best. Hell is for those for whom God has no use, if we take the meaning of Gehenna (the trash pit outside Old Jerusalem) literally.
I would hope that all of those who have shunned God and persecuted His people would take their final opportunity to ask His forgiveness and be spared the torment of eternity separated from His presence.
If they don't, however, and they are no longer God's concern, then they are no longer my concern.
That's one way to look at it. Another way is that a "just God" wouldn't keep a torture chamber in his basement, nor give eternal punishment (an infinite amount) for any finite amount of transgression.
"God keeps a private torture chamber...the God [I worship] will have to meet higher standards than that."
--Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle, "Inferno"
Where you're forced to wear brightly colored polyester clothing and shoes with tassles?
Of course it's not morally acceptable. The Bible is clear: God wishes EVERYONE would come to Him and be saved. Therefore, to wish otherwise is to place oneself directly opposed to the will of God.
No. God does not delight when wicked men die. God wants everyone to join Him at the table (Humans have that freedom of will thing).
Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude. Christs apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christs attitude as unloving.
Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My names sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10). When a Canadian started his call with a vicious, "Bob, I hate you..." The immediate and (super-) natural response was "Cool. Great! Because Jesus taught that if they hated Me, they will hate you" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard.
Jesus is the Rock. Most believers are unaware, however, that Jesus used this metaphor to issue a graphic threat against the unrepentant. For Christ said that on whom that Rock "falls, it will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18). Even the Father said that the Son is the "rock of offense" (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). Offending unbelievers is Christlike in the deepest sense.
God utterly forbid drinking blood (Lev. 3:17; 17:14). Israelites, from priests, to Pharisees, to average citizens, were at least superficially obsessed with "keeping the law." Thus when Jesus said whoever "drinks My blood has eternal life," (John 6:54) He was being extremely offensive, and intentionally so. Further, He made no effort whatsoever to clarify Himself. Rather, He let the offense work its ministry. Jesus knew He even offended His own followers. As He said to "His disciples" immediately afterward, "does this offend you?" (John 6:61).
The Biblical approach to communicating with the world includes not only compassion, but harshness as well. God does not condemn those who "rebuke the wicked" (see Prov. 24:25).
The Bible sometimes ministers through ridicule, humor, sarcasm and even mocking. For example, God mocked the Midianites when He defeated them after sending a nightmare to them that they were being attacked by a loaf of bread (Jud. 7:13-14). Elijah, just prior to executing 450 prophets of Baal, "mocked them" as the Bible says, telling them to yell louder to their god so that Baal could hear their prayers since he was either on a trip, sleeping or in the restroom (Hebrew, "private place," 1 Ki. 18:27; and 2 Ki. 6:8-20).
God mocked Jeroboam, who "stretched out his hand from the altar" and ordered the prophet arrested. "Then his hand, which he stretched out toward him, withered, so that he could not pull it back to himself" (1 Ki. 13:4). God mocked the Philistines when they found Dagon their god "fallen on its face before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again" (1 Sam. 5:3). The next morning they found Dagon toppled again, but this time he had lost his head (1 Sam. 5:4). God mocked the idolaters who cut down a branch, and with half of it they make a god to worship and with the other half, they make a fire to cook lunch (Is. 44:14-17). Another carves an idol of stone and says to it "wake up" (Hab. 2:18-19).
When a harsh word is needed God uses a harsh word. This is true in the Old and New Testaments. Herod beheaded John the Baptist for "rebuking" the king for "all the evils which Herod had done" (Luke 3:19) and for condemning the tetrarch for incestuous adultery (Mat. 14:3-4; Mark 6:17-18; Lev. 18:16; 20:21) with "Herodias, his brother Philips wife" (Luke 3:19). Jesus warned of "the leaven of Herod" (Mark 8:15). When notified that "Herod wants to kill You," (Luke 13:31), Christ responded without respect, "Go, tell that fox, I cast out demons " (Luke 13:32).
The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).
Gentiles (as symbols of the godless) and sodomites are called "dogs" in the Bible (Mat. 7:6; 15:26; Deut. 23:17-18; Ps. 22:16; 59:5-6; Phil. 3:2; Rev. 22:15). And Jesus was harsh (not only to the Pharisees, as some believers wrongly assume but) to all the unrepentant (see His use of "hypocrite"). Jesus instructs Christians to not "cast your pearls before swine" (Mat. 7:6). Yet the silly dilemma now is, "Who could Christ possibly have meant by that, for we are too loving, tolerant, polite and respectful to refer to any human being by that mean-spirited term."
In the King James Version, the seductive women among the people of God are worse than "whores" (Ezek. 16:33). That crude term appears in the Bible dozens of times. The men who use those women are "whoremongers" (1 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 13:4; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), which is the most raw term in the English language to describe promiscuous men. God describes other sinners in terms of filthy excrement (Isa. 64:6) and even worse (2 Ki. 18:27; Isa. 36:12). Sinners truly are repulsive, regardless of how men may try to sanitize them.
The Bible does not say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." It says, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7). And that God hates "all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5). "The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man" (Ps 5:6). Also "the wicked and the one who loves violence [God] hates." (Ps 11:5). Further, "The face of the Lord is against those who do evil" (Ps 34:16). God "loves righteousness and hate[s] wickedness (Ps. 45:7).
There are six things "the Lord hates," including "a heart that devises wicked plans a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19). And God reminds us "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more" (Ho 9:13). As Moses wrote of God, "if you do not obey Me... My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:27-30).
Even in the New Testament, Paul wrote, "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9) introducing the concept of hypocritical love. What is hypocritical love? "Should you love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chr. 19:2). Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love. A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points the way to God.
God uses different methods to communicate the Gospel to people at different depths of depravity. At times, a Christian can pray with an unbeliever. At other times, a believer might ridicule the unrepentant in hopes of waking him up. Painful communication though is in no way reserved just for non-Christians.
Paul uses dripping sarcasm telling the Corinthians that they do not need his counsel because they are full, rich, wise, strong and distinguished. They are even like kings, and all that without Pauls help (1 Cor. 4:8, 10). Sarcasm stigmatizes destructive behavior and prods people toward righteousness (1 Cor. 4:14). Paul also fell short of todays compassionate Christianity when he wrote that the government should minister terror, wrath and vengeance against the evildoer and that the sword should be used against them (Rom. 13:3-4). The Apostle also erred by todays standards calling unbelievers fools (Rom. 1:22) and the Galatians fools (Gal. 3:1, 3). Incidentally, Jesus also called men fools (Mat. 23:17, 19; 25:2-8; Luke 11:40; 12:20) when appropriate but never "without a cause" (Mat. 5:22) according to His teaching. As King David wrote, "The fool has said in his heart, There is no God." (Ps. 53:1). Thus, atheists are fools and it is cruel to withhold this knowledge from them.
Christians enjoy quoting, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper." However many shudder at the rest of the verse. For thus says the Lord, "Every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn" (Isa. 54:17). Jesus taught that human beings will condemn the wicked. "The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it" (Mat. 12:41). Jesus said, "For God so loved the world." Then two verses later He added, "but he who does not believe is condemned already" (John 3:18). By todays Christian standard, no unbeliever would know that he is condemned, because most believers will not communicate this vital truth. John 3:16 is nice. John 3:18 is not nice
Jesus was rude. He was asked a question that goes to the very heart of His ministry. "Who gave you this authority?" (Mat. 21:23). Within the answer to that question lies eternal life, yet Christ was not inclined to answer them. Rather, He asked them a question, which they failed to answer (Mat. 21:24-27). Therefore He said to them that neither would He answer their question (Mat. 21:27; see also Luke 22:67 and John 12:34-36).
When people misunderstood Jesus He often made no effort to explain Himself. Quite to the contrary, He often purposely let His hearers misconstrue His words (John 2:18-22). Jesus let people walk away in unbelief without running after them. The Bible does not record Him as saying, "Im sorry, did you misunderstand me?" He is the "stumbling block," and if men wanted to stumble, He let them. For those who want to hang themselves, He invites them (Rev. 22:11). Jesus made the rope available. He is that rope (Rom. 9:33).
Jesus was a man, not a girl.
I don't think he loses any sleep over it....
A touch of the flu...feeling light headed.
"I always thought that we couldnt do enough penance for our sins so Jesus had to die. So if Jesus died for our sins wouldn't that nulify the need for a purgatory?"
Ah yes, another of the head-scratching Catholic philosophies.
I missed the part where we were discussing objectivist political dynamics and such.... ;)
I hadn't thought of that, but you're probably right. And there are probably nutria, too.
I hope so.
I wish people to go to hell all day long.
A particular sin is a "finite amount." A lifetime of unrepentance is a "totality."
Wouldn't you say?
We cannot save ourselves, only God can do that. But we can cooperate with him in healing ourselves.
I analogize: if one has a severe heart attack requiring surgery it is impossible for one to save one's own life. A surgeon has to do that.
After the surgery, one is able to work with the surgeon in recovering, by following his directions for recuperation and making sacrifices in order to become whole and hale again.
When God gives us His grace we are dead in our sins and He brings us back to life. But we are still wounded and impure due to the lingering aftereffects of sin. But God wants us to cooperate with Him in bringing our soul back to health and He makes sure, through His grace, that we are able to wholly purify our soul and repair it before He brings us into His kingdom.
Think of Purgatory as a hospital recovery room. Think of justification as that life-saving operation no patient can perform for himself and sanctification as that monitored program in which the patients works with his doctor in recuperating.
All is forgiven.
But it will cost you some time in Purgatory. ;-)
I once saw an aging Alice Cooper in a pro shop in Southern California intensely examining a putter. That was a little hellish --uh -- surreal.
See my post 141 to save your scalp.
From the sounds of it, if you think the hijackers and me are the same in God's eyes, then that's some crummy belief system.
I prefer to think of them as roasting. I believe that if we're just here to only believe in Jesus or not, and that's all that matters, I might as well be out using any and all drugs and killing whoever I wish, since it wouldn't matter.
My disgust for Warren Sapp for that incident is only overwhelmed by my disgust for his attitude after it. No apology no remorse whatsoever. He breaks a man's neck, ruins his carrer, and doesn't think he did anything wrong!
If there is a need for a list of real candidates for Hell, I have a long one, too long for this forum. Murderers, traitors and some politicians head the list.
Words fail me.
""Hope" is irrelevant - all that matters is what is. The only hope that Arafat had was to renounce idolatry and embrace Jesus Christ as savior. He did not do that, choosing instead to live a life of hatred. To hold the belief that Arafat is in hell, all that is required is a belief in God's word. "
I tend to believe his life as a murderer is more of a factor in his fate than whether or not he believed the NT.