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Growing: Movement is new form of evangelism
Religion News ^ | Dec 7th,2004

Posted on 12/07/2004 5:12:03 AM PST by missyme

As we enter the 21st century, a vital new expression of Christianity is growing in the United States and worldwide. This movement even has a name. It is called "the Emergent Church."

This movement expresses what I call "progressive evangelicalism," because it emphasizes traditional evangelical beliefs - affirming the doctrines of the Apostle's Creed, a high view of Scripture and the importance of a personal transforming relationship with a resurrected Christ - yet rejects the structures and styles of institutionalized Christianity. The Emergent Church

The Emergent Church turns away from spending money on buildings. Instead, most congregations meet as "house churches" or gather in makeshift storefronts and warehouses.

Emergent churches espouse a decentralized grassroots form of Christianity that rejects the hierarchal systems of denominational churches. Each emergent congregation makes its own decisions by consensus.

Leadership is fluid, with all members sharing authority and participating in the mission of the church. Task forces are assembled to undertake such specific programs as feeding the homeless, establishing a partnership with a Third World church, developing an after-school tutoring program for disadvantaged children or organizing people in a poor neighborhood to solve pressing social problems.

The missionary programs of such congregations are committed to direct involvement with those they decide to serve. These churches want little to do with bureaucratic organizations with professional administrators. Members of these congregations want to be involved personally with those in need. They want to know the names and faces of the people they serve.

Emergent congregations must not be confused with those nondenominational mega-churches that seem to be popping up increasingly in communities across the nation. In fact, the two are markedly different.

Emergent churches often express a disdain for the "contemporary-worship music" heard in many mega-churches.

The worship in emergent churches often includes classical music, and such congregations often follow a more formal liturgical style that may even incorporate such ancient forms of praying as that of monastic orders.

The people who join emergent congregations are often folks who have tired of what goes on in churches that have "contemporary services."

A postmodern mindset

The Emergent Church is often somewhat indifferent to theological and social issues that seem urgent to mainstream evangelicalism. These church members tend to think that the crusade against homosexual marriage is a waste of time and energy, and they tend to reject the exclusivistic claims that many evangelicals make about salvation.

They are not about to damn the likes of Gandhi or the Dali Lama to hell simply because they have not embraced Christianity.

In many ways, these Christians express a postmodern mindset that may come across as being somewhat "new age."

They see care for the environment as a major Christian responsibility. They are attracted to Christian mysticism. They talk a great deal about "spiritual formation" and focus significant attention on the healing of illnesses through prayer.

This new expression of Christianity is growing faster than most sociologists could have predicted. It is thriving, in part, because so many people are fed up with the arguing and pettiness that they claim are all too evident in the rest of Christendom.

It remains to be seen whether the Emergent Church will fade away or become an ongoing expression of Christianity.

But there is no question that it is attracting many sophisticated Christians who contend that traditional mainline churches are devoid of vitality and mega-churches are irrelevantly narrow.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: emergentchurch; evangelicals
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To: biblewonk

Nevermind. # 100 is for you, too.


101 posted on 12/07/2004 1:06:44 PM PST by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. words mean things!)
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To: Tares
"Salvation is a free gift of God ("get out of jail free card")"

I think I know what you mean but the cost of salvation was incredibly high. It's just you and I didn't and couldn't pay it. Thanks be to God that that the only one who had the bona fides agreed to pay with his life while we were yet sinners.

102 posted on 12/07/2004 1:19:12 PM PST by strongbow
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To: missyme

"and they tend to reject the exclusivistic claims that many evangelicals make about salvation."

Whoa! Sounded real good to me until I got to that line. How can you both reject the exclusivity of the gospel and at the same time, hold to the tenets of the historic Christian faith?

Emergent church: hmmm, still not sure about it.


103 posted on 12/07/2004 1:30:05 PM PST by Gal.5:1 (merry CHRISTmas!)
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To: strongbow
Thanks be to God that that the only one who had the bona fides agreed to pay with his life while we were yet sinners.

Amen to that.

104 posted on 12/07/2004 1:31:38 PM PST by Tares
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To: missyme

I was hoping that the Emergent church was a turn to the traditions of old, to more 1st century church ways, but alas may be getting sucked into this new age "transformation" of thinking that has its' grips in so many areas of life: politics, economics, business, education...church.


105 posted on 12/07/2004 1:33:22 PM PST by Gal.5:1 (merry CHRISTmas!)
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To: ktupper

"I'm familiar with several that would fall into the "emerging church" category. They are quite sound theologically and would certainly not say all beliefs are valid or true. "

I'm glad to hear that.


106 posted on 12/07/2004 1:37:38 PM PST by Gal.5:1 (merry CHRISTmas!)
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To: CyberCowboy777

re 52: thanks for the info!


107 posted on 12/07/2004 2:04:35 PM PST by Gal.5:1 (merry CHRISTmas!)
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To: CyberCowboy777; Utah Binger
Money and Authority will always be the down fall of "churches".
No I don't think so. The down fall is sin.
IMO, sin will be the down fall of these home churches as well.

Your tag line reads: We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us. Do you want hard, tough, seasoned spiritual leaders who will methodically destroy the false teaching that would kill us spiritually?

Would you return to a mainstream denomination if the leaders would lead with conviction?

108 posted on 12/07/2004 2:08:51 PM PST by suzyjaruki (Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.)
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To: unlearner
Your reply is accurate as I am involved with many new church plants happening around the world. This is still a small segment of the audience we reach of new church plants but it is growing. All of the leaders I have met are God-fearing individuals not at all like the generalizations listed in this article. HSTT, the style and approach they have towards worship and fellowship is not my cup of tea and I would not seek membership there. I draw the line at biblical accuracy/orthodoxy (read: Jesus Christ) and whether they are fulfilling the Great Commission. Some critics have their panties wound about a little too tight when it comes to differences on style and approach....
109 posted on 12/07/2004 2:32:41 PM PST by jettester (I got paid to break 'em - not fly 'em)
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To: newgeezer

I expected as much by the title.


110 posted on 12/07/2004 2:33:18 PM PST by biblewonk (Neither was the man created for woman but the woman for the man.)
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To: Gal.5:1; Leonard210
I was hoping that the Emergent church was a turn to the traditions of old, to more 1st century church ways

Such a movement already exists - the "Restoration" movement, which includes the Cambellite "Churches of Christ", the "Disciples of Christ", and other "no creed but Christ, no law but love" denominations. Odd that this "Emergent" movement hasn't hooked up with the "Restoration" churches, either.

Assuming that "returning to more 1st century ways" is the Emergents' primary intent (and assumming the Restoration movement is doing it right), I think Leonard210's summation is most accurate:

From post #19: "This is simply the "youth" culture isolating themselves from their elders"

111 posted on 12/07/2004 2:37:15 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: Tares
Christ said repent, and believe in the good news.


"Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come" (2 Cor. 5:17).

One is not in Christ until Salvation.

112 posted on 12/07/2004 5:56:02 PM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: Matchett-PI
You have got to be kidding. I do not question God, I question what you tell me God said.

I have stated the articles of Faith showing me your brother in Christ the Lord.

Yet because I have stated in an righteous spirit that I have trouble with a doctrine you call me a fool.

Mat 5:22: But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire.

My trouble is not with God, but with a doctrine, whether by ignorance or righteousness. It is not however by the arrogance of questioning Gods divine nature, it is by humble seeking of His servant.

Be careful the attitude you hold in your heart towards those who you disagree.

113 posted on 12/07/2004 6:10:15 PM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: suzyjaruki
Do you want hard, tough, seasoned spiritual leaders who will methodically destroy the false teaching that would kill us spiritually?

First: seasoned does not apply to spiritual leadership.

Second: destroy the false teachings like denominations?

Would you return to a mainstream denomination if the leaders would lead with conviction?

Conviction: no

Mainstream: By what standard?

By the Word of God: Yes

114 posted on 12/07/2004 6:17:08 PM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: Alex Murphy
"This is simply the "youth" culture isolating themselves from their elders"

Be careful who you place in this category. By the standard of many in "churches" Christ Himself would have been labeled the same way.

115 posted on 12/07/2004 6:22:17 PM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: missyme
All that's really needed is for some of the mainline denominations to castoff extra-biblical baggage.
116 posted on 12/07/2004 6:22:26 PM PST by fso301
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To: missyme; All

Does this place another light on this phenomenon:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_Church

 

 

Bondslave to the Christ

chuck


117 posted on 12/07/2004 6:32:42 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua == YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: CyberCowboy777
"You have got to be kidding. I do not question God, I question what you tell me God said."

Really? I let him do his own talking. How can you say that I told you anything?

Here is what I wrote in #99: "Your comments seem to indicate that you disapprove of the God who said this: Romans 9: 20-22

I'll let YOU tell ME what he said there. Quote him.

Based upon your previous comments it "seemed" to me that you were one of those he spoke about in verse 20 who would question his right to make "vessels of wrath fit for destruction" if he chose to.

If you agree with what he said he has a right to do (which you will hopefully quote here from Romans 9:20-22), then I'll apologize for misinterpreting your comments.

118 posted on 12/07/2004 7:32:58 PM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: CyberCowboy777
Believing the Gospel as only Christ defines it is the act of obedience towards God. Christ commands us to believe and Faith is obedience to that commandment.

Amen. John.6:28-29

119 posted on 12/07/2004 8:04:20 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: missyme

This isn't the same as "The Local Church" is it?


120 posted on 12/07/2004 8:08:32 PM PST by Boiler Plate
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To: CyberCowboy777; Tares
I think he is referring to the "I am saved and now I go on living my life" mentality of many "Christians".

Exactly. We had a great discussion about this last night as we are working through Dallas Willards, _Divine Conspiracy_.

Jesus didn't just come to teach us a set of facts to "believe". These aren't "ought tos". He came to actually make us competent in these things. We are actually to love our neighbor, do good to those who persecute us, turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile, speak the truth in love, etc.

Discipleship brings about the inner transformation that not only makes these things possible, but natural. Sadly most people are focusing on externals and try to do these acts and gain mental knowledge. As we fall in love with God and learn to walk in the way (spiritual disciplines) that Jesus did, we will experience the inner transformation. Jesus is still in the teaching through the HS and is enrolling all who would come into his school.

CyberCowboy...I would also have to agree with your assessment of this article. I think Campolo with his huge brush misses the mark on describing what the characteristics of the "emerging church" movement are.

- Kevin
121 posted on 12/08/2004 4:04:27 AM PST by ktupper
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To: CyberCowboy777

I guess that means you understand "imputed righteousness". :)

It amazes me how so many defend so hard the doctrine of salvation by grace alone to the point of twisting it to mean that the normal expression of life in Christ is to simply have the correct "beliefs".

- Kevin


122 posted on 12/08/2004 4:11:56 AM PST by ktupper
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To: Matchett-PI

Taking the reformed view I would say regeneration results in repentance. Regardless of that, CyberCowboy's other points are accurate.

Sure, righteousness is imputed to us.

Do you think everyone that walks down an aisle, raises their hand at a meeting, or says the "sinners prayer" is elect?

- Kevin


123 posted on 12/08/2004 4:16:34 AM PST by ktupper
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To: Tares; CyberCowboy777

Tares:

There's no use splitting hairs about which comes first, repentance or new heart. People have argued that for centuries. My personal view is the reformed position.

Regardless, the point CyberCowboy and I made is that the result of new heart / repentance or repentance / new heart is a love for God and desire and ability to walk in his ways.

Read the verses you posted on the new convenant...

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

It's quite clear that in normal cases there should be some visible evidence of this new heart. Let's not paint everyone as the thief on the cross.

If you walked down the aisle at an evangelistic conference when you were 23 to get hell insurance and then spent the rest of your life living for yourself, did you really receive a new heart?

I suppose that's God's business but where is the "and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Jesus said "follow me." Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith.

We're not talking about works salvation here. Salvation is by grace through faith alone. It does have a result though.

- Kevin


124 posted on 12/08/2004 4:32:03 AM PST by ktupper
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To: CyberCowboy777
Be careful the attitude you hold in your heart towards those who you disagree.

Agreed. Where's humility and brokeness?

We can easily fall in love with our systematic theology and not love Jesus.

Jesus was quite harsh with the theologians of his day and quite tender with honest seekers. I'm reminded of the parable of the man beating his chest and asking for mercy.

- Kevin
125 posted on 12/08/2004 4:40:26 AM PST by ktupper
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To: maestro

Mess-ianic

Lol, good one, that's a keeper. :)

If people don't believe in what Jesus Himself said, then why bother going to church at all?


126 posted on 12/08/2004 4:44:48 AM PST by Constantine XIII
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To: BibChr

It's the old "I'm okay, you're okay" squishy "religion" with no blood sacrifice by Jesus for sin and in fact, doesn't take sin seriously. Example: they don't think homosexual marriage is a stench in God's nostrils. It's an attempt to make people feel good about themselves and their "spirituality." Christianity without doctrinal discipline is dangerous because people think they will be saved through their own work righteousness. Those will be the ones saying "Lord! Lord!" to Jesus on the Last Day, and He will say, "I never knew you." Very sad.


127 posted on 12/08/2004 4:54:08 AM PST by kittymyrib
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To: Constantine XIII
then why bother going to church at all?

Good question. http://www.jakecolsen.com/

- Kevin
128 posted on 12/08/2004 4:55:08 AM PST by ktupper
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To: ktupper
Let's try that again.

So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore?

and

LifeStream

- Kevin
129 posted on 12/08/2004 5:01:03 AM PST by ktupper
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To: ktupper
"Do you think everyone that walks down an aisle, raises their hand at a meeting, or says the "sinners prayer" is elect?"

No.

That you would even ask me that question is quite ironic in light of the fact that I've been attacked on this thread for inferring just the opposite in my FIRST post on this thread.

Maybe you missed it, so here it is again:

".....Remember the thief on the cross? He was one of God's Elect, but it wasn't evident until the very day he died.

Just because ..the Dali Lama [doesn't] embrace the ONE true God today, doesn't mean we can count [him] out just yet.

Where there's life, there's hope that [he] (and many others) are one of God's elect (that he chose before the foundation of the earth. Rev.13:7-8; 17:8; Acts 13:48; Romans 8:28-30; Romans 9:11-13; Romans 11:7; 2Thess.2:13; 1 Pet.1:1 (NIV); 2:9, etc., etc., etc.

#43 HERE

Of course I know why the very most "loving" religious people (read legalists) are offended by me using the example of the thief on the cross -- he didn't have time to "do" all that stuff that "proves" (by outward appearances) that he was reeeeeeeeeally a "Christian".

But then, that's WHY I like to use that example -- it smokes them out immediately. Hahahahaha

130 posted on 12/08/2004 5:43:11 AM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: kittymyrib
Exactly so.

You make me think of it from another angle. I call to mind Paul's words: "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:26-27; itself harkening back to Ezekiel 3:17-21). Innocent, because and only because he told them the whole story. Leading in turn to this thought --

I don't know whether the damned will speak to each other in Hell. I rather doubt it. But if they do, how many of the lost will turn to their equally-damned "pastors," howling in fury and despair, "Why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you warn me?"

Horrifying thought.

Dan
Biblical Christianity web site
Biblical Christianity message board
Biblical Christianity BLOG

131 posted on 12/08/2004 5:50:56 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: ktupper
We are actually to love our neighbor, do good to those who persecute us, turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile, speak the truth in love, etc.

True. But salvation is not contignent on the believer doing these things.

132 posted on 12/08/2004 6:01:13 AM PST by Tares
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To: randita
I think this paragraph affirms Jesus Christ as the foundation of their faith:

You can claim anything you want, but that does mean diddly when it comes right down to it.

And it certainly does not conform to the last 7 paragraphs of the article? They're pickin', chosin', and putting God in their box!

If they do not follow the precepts of Jesus to their fullest, there just another sheep in wolves clothing.

Satan told Eve that she surely wouldn't die if she ate the fruit, (A ridiculous LIE insinuated as truth) and she bought it! I don't know what Adams problem was?

133 posted on 12/08/2004 6:07:28 AM PST by sirchtruth (Words Mean Things...)
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To: CyberCowboy777
This author is either ignorant or is trying to sway Christians from even visiting these Congregations.

Thanks for bringing this up, sometimes you gotta remember that the MSM BS is a mile long!

134 posted on 12/08/2004 6:10:27 AM PST by sirchtruth (Words Mean Things...)
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To: ktupper
"Jesus was quite harsh with the theologians of his day and quite tender with honest seekers."

Exactly. Jesus was quite harsh with the arrogant legalists of his day who accused HIM of being unloving / unrighteous.

Like the DIShonest seekers of today, they found fault WITH HIM for saying that he has the right to have mercy on whom he wills, and the right to harden whom he wills. That he, the potter, has power over the clay .. to make one for honor and one for dishonor, if he wants to. That so what if he wants to show his wrath and make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction ... so that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy which he prepared beforehand for glory". [Romans 9:14-23] (See #118)

It reeeeeeally sends some sinners into raging anger that even though God says ALL fallen sinners deserve death, not all will get what they deserve.

135 posted on 12/08/2004 6:27:17 AM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: sirchtruth
"Satan told Eve that she surely wouldn't die if she ate the fruit, (A ridiculous LIE insinuated as truth) and she bought it! ..."

She jumped at what she *FELT* was her chance to be God, too. Like many today, THAT was a temptation she could not turn down.

"...I don't know what Adams problem was?"

Since Scripture shows that he wasn't deceived, I guess that he must have just gone along with what "the little woman" wanted him to do so that he wouldn't have to sleep on the couch that night. LOL

136 posted on 12/08/2004 6:54:55 AM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: ktupper; CyberCowboy777
Regardless, the point CyberCowboy and I made is that the result of new heart / repentance or repentance / new heart is a love for God and desire and ability to walk in his ways.

This does not negate the fact that salvation is in fact a "get out of hell free" card.

Jesus said "follow me." Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith.

We do not examine ourselves by looking for evidence of good works in our lives! How many good works are sufficent evidence? One? Thirtyfold? Sixty? An hundred?

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? - II Corinthians 13:5
The examining criteria is "Is Jesus Christ in me?", not "Have I done many mighty works for Christ?". Believers will claim the blood of Christ on Judgement Day, not their works. This does not negate that the blood of Christ motivates the believers to many mighty works.
137 posted on 12/08/2004 7:07:37 AM PST by Tares
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To: Tares

We must not be explaining ourselves clearly. Neither of us is putting forth a salvation by works view. What where eshewing is the easy believism mentality that was rampant in evangelical Christianity (particularly in the West) over the last several decades.

The great commission is not about making converts it's about making disciples. The very thought that we even discuss the possibility of being a "convert" without being a disciple is ludicrous and foreign to the mind of the bible.

Discipleship is not optional. It comes from or grows out of biblical belief or faith. Mental assent is not what the bible calls repentance and belief. Mental assent is why Barna is able to show that there's no difference (none, zero, zilch) statistically for the most part in the behaviors of born again Christians (isn't that redundant) and the rest of America.

A great read on this topic (if you can handle someone who is verbose in their writing style) is _The Divine Conspiracy_ by Dallas Willard.

As far as who is "in" and who is "out", I'll let Father sort that out.

- Kevin


138 posted on 12/08/2004 8:50:47 AM PST by ktupper
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To: Alex Murphy; CyberCowboy777
"This is simply the "youth" culture isolating themselves from their elders"
I agree Alex, this seems to be the closest statement to the truth about these "churches". These "churches" appear to be in rebellion against historic orthodoxy with a "just me and my bible" mindset. The problems that come with that lone wolf mentality are numerous.

While denominations are not perfect, there is no perfect visible church, they follow the pattern of the NT and bring order for the members. There are creeds, standards, etc., as well as a system of governing.

What happens in the home church when there is a doctrinal disagreement? Domestic dispute? I can see how a home "church" would be successful if only one family attended and the head of the household was the head of the "church".

139 posted on 12/08/2004 8:55:21 AM PST by suzyjaruki (Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.)
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To: CharlieOK1
Christians aren't to damn anyone to hell. This is made clear in the Bible.

John 14:6 also holds:

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

140 posted on 12/08/2004 9:01:07 AM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: Tares
Tares:

You might enjoy this interview with Willard if you're interested in seeing where I'm coming from.

http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=100

- Kevin
141 posted on 12/08/2004 9:04:52 AM PST by ktupper
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To: A.J.Armitage
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I did not understand this comment of yours. In response to my question:

And more important where does that leave free will?

You replied:

More important? Why is being able to proudly quote the last lines of Invictus more important than the direct command from Christ to teach all nations?

I'm not aware of quoting Invictus. Maybe someone else did. Could you explain what you meant?

142 posted on 12/08/2004 9:31:48 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black
I know you didn't quote it. But as long as you think free will is that important, you're able to quote the last two lines as something that expresses your view, because they do. You probably don't want to, and you probably consider it offensive to have your views associated with it (with good reason), but consider whether anything's really different, aside from "choosing" differently from the author. That is, It seems your views has the saints as masters of their fate even as they go marching in.
143 posted on 12/08/2004 10:00:50 AM PST by A.J.Armitage (http://calvinist-libertarians.blogspot.com/)
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To: randita
and they tend to reject the exclusivistic claims that many evangelicals make about salvation.

They are not about to damn the likes of Gandhi or the Dali Lama to hell simply because they have not embraced Christianity.

In many ways, these Christians express a postmodern mindset that may come across as being somewhat "new age."

The people teaching that nonsense are not ministers of Jesus Christ, and their "churches" are not a part of the body of Christ on earth.

Peter was speaking of Jesus Christ when he said in Acts 4:12, "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved".

Anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ and accept the salvation he offers by grace through faith will not escape eternal damnation. Gandhi and the Dali Lama are no exceptions.

And any "church" which preaches any other gospel than salvation by grace though faith in the resurrected Christ as preached by Peter, Paul, John, and the other apostles is a false church which is deceiving people and sending them to hell.

144 posted on 12/08/2004 10:12:50 AM PST by epow
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To: xzins
I don't care where they meet or the style of music they listen to or how big their group is. But if they think someone other than Jesus is the light of the world, then they aren't Christian.

Egggzzakly right.

145 posted on 12/08/2004 10:20:41 AM PST by epow
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To: Matchett-PI
I totally agree that God has the right to do as He pleases with His creation.

Including the free will to choose Salvation.

Are you questioning John 3:17?

For you to imply that I was questioning Gods sovereignty is questionable at best. I find it hard to believe that you did not understand my question and point. Be careful of the accusation you make, you will be held accountable.
146 posted on 12/08/2004 10:38:19 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: Tares; ktupper
Salvation is more than a get out of hell free card and I think you are just being contrary.

You agree that more than getting out of hell occurs with Salvation.

You have stated that "The examining criteria is "Is Jesus Christ in me?""

So you have agreed that it is more than getting out of hell, more happens than avoiding hells fire.
147 posted on 12/08/2004 10:46:07 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: suzyjaruki
These "churches" appear to be in rebellion against historic orthodoxy with a "just me and my bible" mindset.

Not unlike what was said of Christ? Of Paul and Peter? Of the First Century Church?

Christ has no honor for historic orthodoxy other than the Word of God.

What happens in the home church when there is a doctrinal disagreement?

How about they follow the plan laid out in the Word of God?

How do you think you precious denominations started to begin with?

How "old" is Calvary Chapel or the Southern Baptist?

148 posted on 12/08/2004 10:51:31 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: Tares; ktupper

Matthew 25:31-46 (King James Version)

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:


36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?


38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?


39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?


40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:


43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


149 posted on 12/08/2004 10:53:52 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: XeniaSt
Thanks for that...

I do not believe the churches I am speaking of fall into the Emerging Church as define in your link. No post-modernism there, that is for sure.
150 posted on 12/08/2004 11:14:49 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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