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Growing: Movement is new form of evangelism
Religion News ^ | Dec 7th,2004

Posted on 12/07/2004 5:12:03 AM PST by missyme

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To: Tares
Tares:

You might enjoy this interview with Willard if you're interested in seeing where I'm coming from.

http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=100

- Kevin
141 posted on 12/08/2004 9:04:52 AM PST by ktupper
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To: A.J.Armitage
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I did not understand this comment of yours. In response to my question:

And more important where does that leave free will?

You replied:

More important? Why is being able to proudly quote the last lines of Invictus more important than the direct command from Christ to teach all nations?

I'm not aware of quoting Invictus. Maybe someone else did. Could you explain what you meant?

142 posted on 12/08/2004 9:31:48 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black
I know you didn't quote it. But as long as you think free will is that important, you're able to quote the last two lines as something that expresses your view, because they do. You probably don't want to, and you probably consider it offensive to have your views associated with it (with good reason), but consider whether anything's really different, aside from "choosing" differently from the author. That is, It seems your views has the saints as masters of their fate even as they go marching in.
143 posted on 12/08/2004 10:00:50 AM PST by A.J.Armitage (http://calvinist-libertarians.blogspot.com/)
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To: randita
and they tend to reject the exclusivistic claims that many evangelicals make about salvation.

They are not about to damn the likes of Gandhi or the Dali Lama to hell simply because they have not embraced Christianity.

In many ways, these Christians express a postmodern mindset that may come across as being somewhat "new age."

The people teaching that nonsense are not ministers of Jesus Christ, and their "churches" are not a part of the body of Christ on earth.

Peter was speaking of Jesus Christ when he said in Acts 4:12, "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved".

Anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ and accept the salvation he offers by grace through faith will not escape eternal damnation. Gandhi and the Dali Lama are no exceptions.

And any "church" which preaches any other gospel than salvation by grace though faith in the resurrected Christ as preached by Peter, Paul, John, and the other apostles is a false church which is deceiving people and sending them to hell.

144 posted on 12/08/2004 10:12:50 AM PST by epow
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To: xzins
I don't care where they meet or the style of music they listen to or how big their group is. But if they think someone other than Jesus is the light of the world, then they aren't Christian.

Egggzzakly right.

145 posted on 12/08/2004 10:20:41 AM PST by epow
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To: Matchett-PI
I totally agree that God has the right to do as He pleases with His creation.

Including the free will to choose Salvation.

Are you questioning John 3:17?

For you to imply that I was questioning Gods sovereignty is questionable at best. I find it hard to believe that you did not understand my question and point. Be careful of the accusation you make, you will be held accountable.
146 posted on 12/08/2004 10:38:19 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: Tares; ktupper
Salvation is more than a get out of hell free card and I think you are just being contrary.

You agree that more than getting out of hell occurs with Salvation.

You have stated that "The examining criteria is "Is Jesus Christ in me?""

So you have agreed that it is more than getting out of hell, more happens than avoiding hells fire.
147 posted on 12/08/2004 10:46:07 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: suzyjaruki
These "churches" appear to be in rebellion against historic orthodoxy with a "just me and my bible" mindset.

Not unlike what was said of Christ? Of Paul and Peter? Of the First Century Church?

Christ has no honor for historic orthodoxy other than the Word of God.

What happens in the home church when there is a doctrinal disagreement?

How about they follow the plan laid out in the Word of God?

How do you think you precious denominations started to begin with?

How "old" is Calvary Chapel or the Southern Baptist?

148 posted on 12/08/2004 10:51:31 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: Tares; ktupper

Matthew 25:31-46 (King James Version)

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:


36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?


38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?


39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?


40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:


43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


149 posted on 12/08/2004 10:53:52 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: XeniaSt
Thanks for that...

I do not believe the churches I am speaking of fall into the Emerging Church as define in your link. No post-modernism there, that is for sure.
150 posted on 12/08/2004 11:14:49 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: Gal.5:1
From what I have read about this "Emerging Church", I can say with all honesty it is postmodernist garbage.

The churches I have spoken about are described in those first few paragraphs of the story, without the last few.
151 posted on 12/08/2004 11:24:33 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (We want hard, tough, seasoned leaders who will methodically destroy the people who would kill us.)
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To: CyberCowboy777; ktupper
Salvation is more than a get out of hell free card and I think you are just being contrary.

Phrases such as "Obedience is not an option, it is a requirement..." post 54 and "Discipleship is not optional" post 138 give the impression that these things are required for salvation. They are not. Salvation is free. The believer gets out of hell free---free of any requirement whatsoever upon the person saved to either become saved or maintain that salvation.

So you have agreed that it is more than getting out of hell, more happens than avoiding hells fire.

Yes. But saying those additional things are required, or that they are not an option, is confusing. Obedience is a fruit of salvation. If you say it is not an option, or it is a requirement, the next question becomes "How much obedience is required before I can be sure that I'm saved?". That is dangerous and not conductive to Christian living. It takes the focus off of Christ and His work and places it instead upon the believer and his work, a losing proposition every time.

I don't wish to be contrary. Easy-believism and make-believism are horrible plagues. Here is a link for your consideration: What Is Saving Faith?. Thanks for the discussion.

152 posted on 12/08/2004 11:59:06 AM PST by Tares
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To: CyberCowboy777
"I totally agree that God has the right to do as He pleases with His creation. Including the free will to choose Salvation"

Exactly. And Adam and Eve made the fateful choice of choosing death.

And except for those that God is rescuing from the death they chose, fallen man will get what he has chosen.

"Are you questioning John 3:17?"

No. I suggested earlier that you might want to do an objective study on "rebrobation" because you don't understand it. I also suggest you do an objective study on the various meanings of the word translated, "world" in Scripture, and its meaning in the context of the verse you quoted in John 3.

"For you to imply that I was questioning Gods sovereignty is questionable at best. I find it hard to believe that you did not understand my question and point."

I'm not saying you are doing it deliberately, but I base my conclusions on what you wrote in #93,112, 113 (and also in #76, 81, and 88). Man used his free will and made his choice in Eden. Even though he was warned not to do it, he still chose death (thinking all the while that he was actually making a choice to be "God", too). Now he is dead in his sins, hates God, and is not able, even if he was interested, to reach out to God unless God enables him first.

"Be careful of the accusation you make, you will be held accountable."

Sounds like something a Pharisee would have said to Jesus.

153 posted on 12/08/2004 5:16:53 PM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: Matchett-PI
Sounds like something a Pharisee would have said to Jesus.

It is something Jesus said to the people.

I also suggest you do an objective study on the various meanings of the word translated, "world" in Scripture, and its meaning in the context of the verse you quoted in John 3.

God allowed the Bible to be so corrupted so that I can not take a simple but foundational verse like John 3:17 literally?

154 posted on 12/08/2004 5:38:18 PM PST by CyberCowboy777 (Zip it Hippie! - http://www.casualconservative.com/)
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To: CyberCowboy777
M-PI:"Sounds like something a Pharisee would have said to Jesus."

CyberCowboy777: "It is something Jesus said to the people."

Yes, but when someone other than Jesus says it, it sounds soooo Pharisaical.

"Isn't that special?"

M-PI: "..I also suggest you do an objective study on the various meanings of the word translated, "world" in Scripture, and its meaning in the context of the verse you quoted in John 3."

CyberCowboy777: "God allowed the Bible to be so corrupted so that I can not take a simple but foundational verse like John 3:17 literally?"

WOW!!! The incredible naivete of that statement blows me away. LOL See ya!

155 posted on 12/08/2004 6:04:46 PM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: Matchett-PI
Sorry.

The Gospel is not complicated.

No way God intends me to share the Good News with John 3:17 with the caveat and translation of what He means by "World".
156 posted on 12/08/2004 8:32:52 PM PST by CyberCowboy777 (Zip it Hippie! - http://www.casualconservative.com/)
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To: Matchett-PI

Check this out and tell me what you think

http://www.hofcc.org/churchInfo/essentialReforms.php#1


157 posted on 12/08/2004 11:04:16 PM PST by CyberCowboy777 (Zip it Hippie! - http://www.casualconservative.com/)
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To: Gal.5:1

I have been looking at this congregation:

http://www.reformationcovenant.org/Page.asp?ID=OurCulture


158 posted on 12/08/2004 11:15:17 PM PST by CyberCowboy777 (Zip it Hippie! - http://www.casualconservative.com/)
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To: CyberCowboy777
I have been looking at this congregation:

LOL!! A church in the CRE denomination

159 posted on 12/09/2004 8:47:07 AM PST by suzyjaruki (Lord, help us, for often we are lukewarm.)
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To: suzyjaruki
Yes.

I would not attend because of the denomination, nor do I place any trust in the denomination.

This is and always should be a Biblical question on a church by church basis.
160 posted on 12/09/2004 11:55:58 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (Zip it Hippie! - http://www.casualconservative.com/)
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