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Atheists, not Muslims, are anti-Christmas
The Australian ^ | 7th December 2004 | Waleed Aly

Posted on 12/07/2004 7:28:32 PM PST by naturalman1975

IT was one of those extremely rare moments when I found myself agreeing with John Howard. Asked what he thought of Sydney Lord Mayor Clover Moore's reported plans to make Sydney's Christmas celebrations low-key and generic, the Prime Minister slammed them as "silly", "ridiculous" and "political correctness from central casting".

Out of sensitivity for a multicultural society, Moore was reported to have said she did not want the celebrations "to push any one religious belief".

In fact, Moore had said nothing of the sort. Quite the contrary: the council is increasing its Christmas celebration spending this year by 50per cent. The words were spoken by Jeff Fisher, chief executive of fast-food chain Oporto following news that the chain had banned a nativity display from its franchise in Hornsby in northern Sydney. Media had put the words in the wrong mouth, but Howard's assessment of them remained true.

Every Christmas it seems we go through this farce. Last year, Stonnington Council in Melbourne removed the word Christmas from its celebrations and prevented speakers at a carols night from quoting the Bible. Some kindergartens and daycare centres have stopped having Christmas parties, instead having end-of-year or fairy parties.

All this, it seems, is being done to include Australia's religious and cultural minorities. This is supposed to foster social harmony and tolerance.

But it doesn't. It does exactly the opposite. When Channel Seven's Sunrise recently ran an interactive segment on the issue, a common theme in the responses of viewers legitimately aggrieved by this emasculation of Christmas was anger towards minority groups -- especially Muslims -- who were cast as cultural warriors against the majority.

Muslims may not celebrate Christmas but it is ridiculous to suspect they are behind this absurd trend. Jesus is a revered, prophetic figure in Islam and, accordingly, we are the least likely to be offended by other religious groups celebrating his birth. An anti-Christmas campaign is more consistent with aggressive atheism than any Islamic imperative.

In fact, I know no member of any religious minority, Muslim or otherwise, who asked for or even wants this. In my experience, religious minorities are far more concerned that their right to religious expression is respected and protected. That, surely, is a right belonging no less to the majority than to minorities.

Driving Christmas underground only erodes this treasured Australian norm and that is far more troubling to me than any Christmas celebration. I find the idea of restraining religious expression substantially more offensive than I find any nativity display. The impoverishment of Christmas is done more on behalf of religious minorities than by them.

This is where political correctness loses the plot; what purports to inspire tolerance instead inspires hostility and intolerance. Diverse, vibrant and tolerant societies are created by allowing eclectic cultural and religious expressions, celebrations included, to flourish. You don't achieve that by surrendering a culture, replacing it with bland meaninglessness.

Denying the Christianity in Christmas or, worse, doing away with it altogether helps no one. This is not multiculturalism. It is anti-culturalism.

Waleed Aly, a Melbourne lawyer, is a member of the Islamic Council of Victoria executive.


TOPICS: Australia/New Zealand
KEYWORDS: antichristian; antichristmas; atheists; christmas; islam; muslims; tyrantunbelievers
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1 posted on 12/07/2004 7:28:32 PM PST by naturalman1975
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To: naturalman1975
Atheists, not Muslims, are anti-Christmas

Both atheists and Muslims are absolutely anti-Christmas and anti-Christian. Read more here.

2 posted on 12/07/2004 7:32:12 PM PST by Prime Choice (I like Democrats, too. Let's exchange recipes.)
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To: naturalman1975

There is a whole bunch of child sex slaves...Christian children in the Sudan...raped and tortured and murdered for not denying their Christian faith and swearing oaths to Islam
that might disagree with you....


3 posted on 12/07/2004 7:34:31 PM PST by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: naturalman1975

Sorry Waleed, I'm not buying it..we had no problem with Christmas in our town grade school (along with a nice menorah for the Jewish students) and everyone was happy, no complaints, not even from aetheists. It wasn't until the influx of muslims into our community combined with post-9/11 hypersensitivity that we have had to cut out Christmas songs and include Ramadan in the "Winter Concert". This is bullsh-t spin and it don't fly.


5 posted on 12/07/2004 7:37:35 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: redcave3

I think it means kiss your infidel ass goodbye.


6 posted on 12/07/2004 7:38:35 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: Prime Choice

Technically, I'm an atheist, and I know other atheists, too. We all celebrate Christmas complete with trees, lights, gifts, and so on, and maybe even mass (though we're there more as tourists than anything else). Many are married to believers and sit in church with their wives or husbands every Sunday (though they probably wish they didn't have to). Atheist organizations have a hard time getting us all to join.

Stop putting us in the same category with terrorists. We're not the ones slamming planes into buildings or putting Christians in prison in the Middle East. We're also usually not the ones bringing lawsuits (though it may seem otherwise). Many lawsuits against gov't-funded religious displays etc. have been brought by Mormons, Catholics, and Jews.


7 posted on 12/07/2004 7:46:37 PM PST by Tired of Taxes (and growing increasingly weary of this screenname, too.)
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To: Prime Choice

"Muslims are absolutely anti-Christmas"

The author is muslim. He ought to know if he finds Christmas offensive. And he doesn't.


8 posted on 12/07/2004 8:22:32 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: naturalman1975

This atheist or near atheist is not anti-Christian. I think the religion is a huge net plus on this planet. One size does not fit all. Broad brush stokes typically generate more heat than light.


9 posted on 12/07/2004 8:27:25 PM PST by Torie
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To: ariamne

"..we had no problem with Christmas in our town grade school ....until the influx of muslims into our community combined with post-9/11 hypersensitivity that we have had to cut out Christmas songs ..."


Ever think maybe it's the PC Left that's causing the problems? That's what the author and Sydney Lord Mayor Clover Moore are trying to point out.


10 posted on 12/07/2004 8:28:08 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: Tired of Taxes

Fancy meeting you here. :) I have always enjoyed and participated in, the pagan aspects of the Christmas holiday.


11 posted on 12/07/2004 8:28:56 PM PST by Torie
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To: nuconvert
The author is muslim. He ought to know if he finds Christmas offensive.

And Muslims never lie. And don't forget that Islam is a religion of peace! Fnord.

12 posted on 12/07/2004 8:30:58 PM PST by Prime Choice (I like Democrats, too. Let's exchange recipes.)
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To: Prime Choice

So, your assumption is that he's a liar, because he's muslim.... Is that your assumption about all muslims?


13 posted on 12/07/2004 8:36:28 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: nuconvert

The pc left has aligned itself directly with radical islam. The distinctions between the two groups have been decidedly blurred over the past few years, and they share many similar objectives. And though this man is a muslim, that does not mean he speaks for all muslims. Sorry, this dog just doesn't bark and the whole article smacks of a smokescreen. I don't trust it, and I don't trust the author's motives.


14 posted on 12/07/2004 8:39:14 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: nuconvert

My wild guess is that Islam is more favorable to Christ than to Christians. Christ was the wise man precusor to the even more perfect vision of Mohammed, and Christ's followers have a character flaw in not embracing the more perfect vision.


15 posted on 12/07/2004 8:41:04 PM PST by Torie
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To: nuconvert

The Koran has verses that support lying to infidels, (no, I don't have the passages) and that view has been endorsed by mullahs of radical islam around the world. Yes, they lie. And yes, it is part of their religion as interpreted by their own religious leaders.


16 posted on 12/07/2004 8:42:29 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: Torie

"My wild guess is that Islam is more favorable to Christ than to Christians."

Of course. People here seem to be missing that distinction.
That's the point that trying to be made.


17 posted on 12/07/2004 8:42:38 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: ariamne

"that view has been endorsed by mullahs of radical islam around the world."

So, you just assume that the author is some sort of radical and liar because he's muslim?


18 posted on 12/07/2004 8:45:13 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: nuconvert

Put it this way. I view him with a jaundiced eye. Because of the practice called "Taqiyyah". It means that a Muslim will never be truthful to the law enforcement or anyone when such truth will convict a fellow Muslim. Taqiyyah is practiced extensively my Islamists at all levels. Simply they will lie to a non-Muslim."Muhammad said "War is deceit"
Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”


19 posted on 12/07/2004 8:48:16 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: Prime Choice
Speaking as a person who holds no religious faith whatsoever, I have always been respectful of the genuine religious beliefs of others and indeed have taken every opportunity to defend the constitutionally sacred freedom of worship all people have inherent to them.

Of course, most of my friends and family are Christians and a few are other faiths, and growing up with and living among so many believers in God who follow "the good path" has left me with no choice but to hold genuine respect for their beliefs. I have no respect for hypocrites of any kind, however, be they religious or atheist.

Do not project the actions of a few media high profile atheists or agnostics onto all, and therefore believe that all are Christian-haters. You will find no disrespectful statements about religious beliefs in anything I have ever said.
20 posted on 12/07/2004 8:51:27 PM PST by spinestein (Love others, as yourself. --J. C.)
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To: ariamne

"The pc left has aligned itself directly with radical islam." Yes it has. And no this man can't speak for all muslims.



"Jesus is a revered, prophetic figure in Islam "

Are you aware of this?


21 posted on 12/07/2004 8:55:14 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: nuconvert

So I've heard. I've also heard "Islam is a religion of peace". I happen to question things I hear when they are coupled with actions that belie these quaint little homilies. Jesus was also born of a Jewish woman, and I've seen little respect for Jews or Women in Islamic teachings. What is it you are attempting to pitch? Get to the point, please.


22 posted on 12/07/2004 8:59:53 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: ariamne

My initial comment to you was with regard to your comment about what was happening at your local schools.
Yes, the PC Left make the rules there. And they think they need to protect all muslims from jesus. But they're too stupid to realize, that muslims don't want to be protected from the birth of Jesus, since he is revered. The point is made in #17 & 15.


23 posted on 12/07/2004 9:00:04 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: ariamne

"So I've heard"

Are you trying to argue He isn't?


24 posted on 12/07/2004 9:01:21 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: ariamne

Finally, someone with some sense. I think most freepers would be shocked to find that my children enjoy christmas, and that I don't ruin it for them because I'm an atheist.


25 posted on 12/07/2004 9:01:48 PM PST by Melas
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To: Tired of Taxes

I'll make room on the bench. I'd say your experience is typical for an atheist.


26 posted on 12/07/2004 9:02:21 PM PST by Melas
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To: nuconvert

Then you misunderstood the problem at the school. The school decision to ban Christmas songs was not to protect muslims from Jesus, but to protect NON-muslims from Jesus, and to protect the school from angry muslims (visions of Russia in their bureaucratic heads). And as for Jesus being revered, tell that to the Christians being slaughtered by Muslims in the Sudan. Being a messianic jew, I would be targeted by islamicfascists on two fronts. And you haven't responded to my statement about the lack of respect for women or jews by islam, rather you keep repeating the line about the so-called reverence of Jesus by muslims. Sorry, I don't want to insult you, but I don't believe it. This isn't DU.


27 posted on 12/07/2004 9:08:26 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: Melas

My parents (and I) are atheists. We always loved Christmas.


28 posted on 12/07/2004 9:10:11 PM PST by smcmike
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To: nuconvert

No. As a Jew for Jesus, I revere Him more than you could possibly understand.


29 posted on 12/07/2004 9:11:10 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: ariamne

You still don't get it.
Did you read #15 or #17?

"lack of respect for women or jews by islam"
Again, you seem to be stuck on a particular sect. Don't judge all muslims as thuogh they belong to extremist or radical sects. They don't. Check into sufi muslims sometime.


30 posted on 12/07/2004 9:14:08 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: Melas

It usually is not the aetheists. My mother was jewish, my father christian by heritage, but they were unitarians by practice (aetheists). We always celebrated Christmas, and my parents never objected to Christmas songs and celebration (or Hannukah) in the school.


31 posted on 12/07/2004 9:16:07 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: ariamne
I remember a few Goths who hated Christmas who would put on extra white make-up and heavy black outfits and go out on Christmas Eve and get wasted at various inner-city nightclubs.

Poor creatures of the night the Goths. A "Save the Goth" Fund should be started.
32 posted on 12/07/2004 9:17:13 PM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: nuconvert

Yes, I read the posts. What am I supposed to be convinced of? ALL sects of islam make me squeamish. I don't blame the people, they cannot help it that they are brainwashed by a series of cults that mask as a great religion. But I also know not to trust them for the same reason. Are you muslim?


33 posted on 12/07/2004 9:20:02 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: ariamne

The question was about whether you were trying to argue that muslims DON'T revere Jesus. Not about whether you did.

I think where all this is getting us, is that you don't distinguish between individuals, but rather lump all muslims together and judge them as a group; they're all the same to you. That's what all your comments have reflected.


34 posted on 12/07/2004 9:21:37 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: Bandaneira

In my day, it was punk rockers (I was one, pink hair and all) who hated Christmas. I think it's because they feel its so anti-nihilistic. And uncool. So it is with Goths. Black is the color of my true love's hair, lips, and fingernails..


35 posted on 12/07/2004 9:22:25 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: nuconvert

And I stand by my comments, with apologies to no one. I don't need to conform to your standards, nor do I need to be politically correct. Everything I needed to learn about Islam, I learned on 9/11, as the saying goes. And no, I don't believe muslims revere Jesus. EOM.


36 posted on 12/07/2004 9:26:13 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: ariamne

Nope. Not to my standards.
Goodnight.


37 posted on 12/07/2004 9:28:58 PM PST by nuconvert (Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.)
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To: nuconvert

Yes, run back to DU. In the words of Barbara Bush to Al Franken, "I'm through with you".


38 posted on 12/07/2004 9:30:03 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: ariamne
I knew some really great Goths who I always asked to my parties. I always enjoyed getting different groups of people together at a party : Corporate bankers, ferals, goths, journalists, students, backpackers, models, and some punks. The more costumes and colours the better. It is also a myth to say that people who wear Gothic clothing are all anti-social rebels. Some of the most conservative and best people I know would wear some of the most outrageous clothes, while some of the most psychopathic, dysfunctional people I have ever met wore boring, conformist clothes.

P.S. I used to love Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy...A track just entered my mind..."Bella Lugosi's dead."
39 posted on 12/07/2004 9:32:31 PM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: naturalman1975
I know most atheists are anti-christian but for the record: I am not. I loath my fellow atheist and their victim mentality. I think society is better off with most people practicing organized religions. In fact, I take my family to Catholic mass every week and volunteer at the Church. Atheist are on a secular crusade have elevated their non-belief to a religion of its own and are trying to force it on the rest of society. When you believers finally have had enough and are burning the atheist alive...just remember that I'm on your side.
40 posted on 12/07/2004 9:37:14 PM PST by RoarkMan (no tag line entered)
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To: Bandaneira

Sisters of Mercy! My signature song was "MaryAnn" (my real name). I loved Bauhaus, Joy Division, Siouxie and the Banshies. You just brought the early 80's back to me--what a blast. You are right of course--there is a website; I think its called Conservative Punk Rockers or something like that, I googled it once and it was pretty cool. Anyway, it is a myth that all conservatives only listen to country or "classic" rock. Not that there is anything wrong with that.


41 posted on 12/07/2004 9:37:42 PM PST by ariamne (reformed liberal)
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To: Prime Choice
[ Both atheists and Muslims are absolutely anti-Christmas and anti-Christian. ]

And most Jews are not real happy about Christmas either..
On the other hand some Jews ARE christians...

42 posted on 12/07/2004 9:38:45 PM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
And most Jews are not real happy about Christmas either..

This reply may sound like a bad joke, but it's no joke at all. I have several Jewish friends back in my old home town who love Christmas. In the words of one of them, "That's the time of year where we all hold hands 'round the cash register and sing, 'What a Friend We Have in Jesus.'" (His words, not mine!)

43 posted on 12/07/2004 9:42:05 PM PST by Prime Choice (I like Democrats, too. Let's exchange recipes.)
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To: Prime Choice
I am an atheist, and I celebrate Christmas. Even Ayn Rand enjoyed celebrating Christmas. Most of my relatives (and friends) are Christians.

Don't lump atheists with Muslims. Muslims are not a "religious minority". Islam is not a religion - it is a crime syndicate. The Founding Fathers would have considered it obscene to respect the "religion" of the Barbary Pirates. The propaganda branch of Islam is evidently trying to con the sheeple into believing that Muslims love Christians (never mind the church bombings around the world). It is no coincidence that the attempts to prevent the celebration of Christmas coincide with the "recognition" of EID, Ramadan, etc. This article is reminiscent of the Nazi (and Muslim) practice of blaming everything on the Jews. Since antisemitism does not play well outside of the ME and Old Europe, a new tactic is being tried.

Atheism does not by itself define a set of moral or political beliefs. There are "atheists" who treat Marx as a god. But there are many American atheists who adhere to the principles on which America was founded. You cannot say the same about the followers of a lying, thieving, murdering pedophile.

44 posted on 12/07/2004 9:46:11 PM PST by Ragnar54
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To: ariamne
Joy Division were ace. "Love will tear us apart" is one of the greatest songs ever. Only liking one type of music is akin to only liking one type of food. How boring life would be without variety. Many "leaders" from religious, political and economic fields have tried to impose their own personal idiosyncracies and preferences upon their subjects thus the closed group-think, paralysis conformity of many sects. There was a certain brilliant anarchism to much of the early eighties British music.
45 posted on 12/07/2004 9:48:39 PM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: nuconvert

Nuconvert, you say "Jesus is revered by Islam." So what is ur point? After all, 50% of Islamic texts were plagiarized from ancient Hebrew, Christian and Zoroastrian texts. So it is not a surprise to see Islam respecting Jesus.

Read a good book. read "Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq.



46 posted on 12/07/2004 9:51:58 PM PST by velocityguy
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To: Prime Choice
[ "That's the time of year where we all hold hands 'round the cash register and sing, 'What a Friend We Have in Jesus.'" ]

LoL... Now that was funny...
Missed the point though..

47 posted on 12/07/2004 10:05:49 PM PST by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: RoarkMan
When you believers finally have had enough and are burning the atheist alive...just remember that I'm on your side.

Please say you forgot to add the /sarcasm tag to the end of your post.

48 posted on 12/07/2004 10:12:48 PM PST by Tired of Taxes (and growing increasingly weary of this screenname, too.)
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To: Tired of Taxes

...but of course.


49 posted on 12/07/2004 10:20:02 PM PST by RoarkMan (no tag line entered)
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To: joesnuffy
Remarks by Justin Martyr to the Roman senate

CHRISTIANS CHARGED WITH ATHEISM.

Why, then, should this be? In our case, who pledge ourselves to do no wickedness, nor to hold these atheistic opinions, you do not examine the charges made against us; but, yielding to unreasoning passion, and to the instigation of evil demons, you punish us without consideration or judgment. For the truth shall be spoken; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves, both defiled women and corrupted boys, and showed such fearful sights to men, that those who did not use their reason in judging of the actions that were done, were struck with terror; and being carried away by fear, and not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods, and gave to each the name which each of the demons chose for himself. (1) And when Socrates endeavoured, by true reason and examination, to bring these things to light, and deliver men from the demons, then the demons themselves, by means of men who rejoiced in iniquity, compassed his death, as an atheist and a profane person, on the charge that "he was introducing new divinities;" and in our case they display a similar activity. For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ; and in obedience to Him, we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, (2) but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, (2) whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue.

CHAP. VI.--CHARGE OF ATHEISM REFUTED.

Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), (3) and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.

50 posted on 12/07/2004 10:50:41 PM PST by Rocketman
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