Skip to comments.Atheists, not Muslims, are anti-Christmas
Posted on 12/07/2004 7:28:32 PM PST by naturalman1975
IT was one of those extremely rare moments when I found myself agreeing with John Howard. Asked what he thought of Sydney Lord Mayor Clover Moore's reported plans to make Sydney's Christmas celebrations low-key and generic, the Prime Minister slammed them as "silly", "ridiculous" and "political correctness from central casting".
Out of sensitivity for a multicultural society, Moore was reported to have said she did not want the celebrations "to push any one religious belief".
In fact, Moore had said nothing of the sort. Quite the contrary: the council is increasing its Christmas celebration spending this year by 50per cent. The words were spoken by Jeff Fisher, chief executive of fast-food chain Oporto following news that the chain had banned a nativity display from its franchise in Hornsby in northern Sydney. Media had put the words in the wrong mouth, but Howard's assessment of them remained true.
Every Christmas it seems we go through this farce. Last year, Stonnington Council in Melbourne removed the word Christmas from its celebrations and prevented speakers at a carols night from quoting the Bible. Some kindergartens and daycare centres have stopped having Christmas parties, instead having end-of-year or fairy parties.
All this, it seems, is being done to include Australia's religious and cultural minorities. This is supposed to foster social harmony and tolerance.
But it doesn't. It does exactly the opposite. When Channel Seven's Sunrise recently ran an interactive segment on the issue, a common theme in the responses of viewers legitimately aggrieved by this emasculation of Christmas was anger towards minority groups -- especially Muslims -- who were cast as cultural warriors against the majority.
Muslims may not celebrate Christmas but it is ridiculous to suspect they are behind this absurd trend. Jesus is a revered, prophetic figure in Islam and, accordingly, we are the least likely to be offended by other religious groups celebrating his birth. An anti-Christmas campaign is more consistent with aggressive atheism than any Islamic imperative.
In fact, I know no member of any religious minority, Muslim or otherwise, who asked for or even wants this. In my experience, religious minorities are far more concerned that their right to religious expression is respected and protected. That, surely, is a right belonging no less to the majority than to minorities.
Driving Christmas underground only erodes this treasured Australian norm and that is far more troubling to me than any Christmas celebration. I find the idea of restraining religious expression substantially more offensive than I find any nativity display. The impoverishment of Christmas is done more on behalf of religious minorities than by them.
This is where political correctness loses the plot; what purports to inspire tolerance instead inspires hostility and intolerance. Diverse, vibrant and tolerant societies are created by allowing eclectic cultural and religious expressions, celebrations included, to flourish. You don't achieve that by surrendering a culture, replacing it with bland meaninglessness.
Denying the Christianity in Christmas or, worse, doing away with it altogether helps no one. This is not multiculturalism. It is anti-culturalism.
Waleed Aly, a Melbourne lawyer, is a member of the Islamic Council of Victoria executive.
Both atheists and Muslims are absolutely anti-Christmas and anti-Christian. Read more here.
There is a whole bunch of child sex slaves...Christian children in the Sudan...raped and tortured and murdered for not denying their Christian faith and swearing oaths to Islam
that might disagree with you....
Sorry Waleed, I'm not buying it..we had no problem with Christmas in our town grade school (along with a nice menorah for the Jewish students) and everyone was happy, no complaints, not even from aetheists. It wasn't until the influx of muslims into our community combined with post-9/11 hypersensitivity that we have had to cut out Christmas songs and include Ramadan in the "Winter Concert". This is bullsh-t spin and it don't fly.
I think it means kiss your infidel ass goodbye.
Technically, I'm an atheist, and I know other atheists, too. We all celebrate Christmas complete with trees, lights, gifts, and so on, and maybe even mass (though we're there more as tourists than anything else). Many are married to believers and sit in church with their wives or husbands every Sunday (though they probably wish they didn't have to). Atheist organizations have a hard time getting us all to join.
Stop putting us in the same category with terrorists. We're not the ones slamming planes into buildings or putting Christians in prison in the Middle East. We're also usually not the ones bringing lawsuits (though it may seem otherwise). Many lawsuits against gov't-funded religious displays etc. have been brought by Mormons, Catholics, and Jews.
"Muslims are absolutely anti-Christmas"
The author is muslim. He ought to know if he finds Christmas offensive. And he doesn't.
This atheist or near atheist is not anti-Christian. I think the religion is a huge net plus on this planet. One size does not fit all. Broad brush stokes typically generate more heat than light.
"..we had no problem with Christmas in our town grade school ....until the influx of muslims into our community combined with post-9/11 hypersensitivity that we have had to cut out Christmas songs ..."
Ever think maybe it's the PC Left that's causing the problems? That's what the author and Sydney Lord Mayor Clover Moore are trying to point out.
Fancy meeting you here. :) I have always enjoyed and participated in, the pagan aspects of the Christmas holiday.
And Muslims never lie. And don't forget that Islam is a religion of peace! Fnord.
So, your assumption is that he's a liar, because he's muslim.... Is that your assumption about all muslims?
The pc left has aligned itself directly with radical islam. The distinctions between the two groups have been decidedly blurred over the past few years, and they share many similar objectives. And though this man is a muslim, that does not mean he speaks for all muslims. Sorry, this dog just doesn't bark and the whole article smacks of a smokescreen. I don't trust it, and I don't trust the author's motives.
My wild guess is that Islam is more favorable to Christ than to Christians. Christ was the wise man precusor to the even more perfect vision of Mohammed, and Christ's followers have a character flaw in not embracing the more perfect vision.
The Koran has verses that support lying to infidels, (no, I don't have the passages) and that view has been endorsed by mullahs of radical islam around the world. Yes, they lie. And yes, it is part of their religion as interpreted by their own religious leaders.
"My wild guess is that Islam is more favorable to Christ than to Christians."
Of course. People here seem to be missing that distinction.
That's the point that trying to be made.
"that view has been endorsed by mullahs of radical islam around the world."
So, you just assume that the author is some sort of radical and liar because he's muslim?
Put it this way. I view him with a jaundiced eye. Because of the practice called "Taqiyyah". It means that a Muslim will never be truthful to the law enforcement or anyone when such truth will convict a fellow Muslim. Taqiyyah is practiced extensively my Islamists at all levels. Simply they will lie to a non-Muslim."Muhammad said "War is deceit"
Quran 66:1 Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.
Bukhari:V4B52N268 Allahs Apostle said, War is deceit.
"The pc left has aligned itself directly with radical islam." Yes it has. And no this man can't speak for all muslims.
"Jesus is a revered, prophetic figure in Islam "
Are you aware of this?
So I've heard. I've also heard "Islam is a religion of peace". I happen to question things I hear when they are coupled with actions that belie these quaint little homilies. Jesus was also born of a Jewish woman, and I've seen little respect for Jews or Women in Islamic teachings. What is it you are attempting to pitch? Get to the point, please.
My initial comment to you was with regard to your comment about what was happening at your local schools.
Yes, the PC Left make the rules there. And they think they need to protect all muslims from jesus. But they're too stupid to realize, that muslims don't want to be protected from the birth of Jesus, since he is revered. The point is made in #17 & 15.
"So I've heard"
Are you trying to argue He isn't?
Finally, someone with some sense. I think most freepers would be shocked to find that my children enjoy christmas, and that I don't ruin it for them because I'm an atheist.
I'll make room on the bench. I'd say your experience is typical for an atheist.
Then you misunderstood the problem at the school. The school decision to ban Christmas songs was not to protect muslims from Jesus, but to protect NON-muslims from Jesus, and to protect the school from angry muslims (visions of Russia in their bureaucratic heads). And as for Jesus being revered, tell that to the Christians being slaughtered by Muslims in the Sudan. Being a messianic jew, I would be targeted by islamicfascists on two fronts. And you haven't responded to my statement about the lack of respect for women or jews by islam, rather you keep repeating the line about the so-called reverence of Jesus by muslims. Sorry, I don't want to insult you, but I don't believe it. This isn't DU.
My parents (and I) are atheists. We always loved Christmas.
No. As a Jew for Jesus, I revere Him more than you could possibly understand.
You still don't get it.
Did you read #15 or #17?
"lack of respect for women or jews by islam"
Again, you seem to be stuck on a particular sect. Don't judge all muslims as thuogh they belong to extremist or radical sects. They don't. Check into sufi muslims sometime.
It usually is not the aetheists. My mother was jewish, my father christian by heritage, but they were unitarians by practice (aetheists). We always celebrated Christmas, and my parents never objected to Christmas songs and celebration (or Hannukah) in the school.
Yes, I read the posts. What am I supposed to be convinced of? ALL sects of islam make me squeamish. I don't blame the people, they cannot help it that they are brainwashed by a series of cults that mask as a great religion. But I also know not to trust them for the same reason. Are you muslim?
The question was about whether you were trying to argue that muslims DON'T revere Jesus. Not about whether you did.
I think where all this is getting us, is that you don't distinguish between individuals, but rather lump all muslims together and judge them as a group; they're all the same to you. That's what all your comments have reflected.
In my day, it was punk rockers (I was one, pink hair and all) who hated Christmas. I think it's because they feel its so anti-nihilistic. And uncool. So it is with Goths. Black is the color of my true love's hair, lips, and fingernails..
And I stand by my comments, with apologies to no one. I don't need to conform to your standards, nor do I need to be politically correct. Everything I needed to learn about Islam, I learned on 9/11, as the saying goes. And no, I don't believe muslims revere Jesus. EOM.
Nope. Not to my standards.
Yes, run back to DU. In the words of Barbara Bush to Al Franken, "I'm through with you".
Sisters of Mercy! My signature song was "MaryAnn" (my real name). I loved Bauhaus, Joy Division, Siouxie and the Banshies. You just brought the early 80's back to me--what a blast. You are right of course--there is a website; I think its called Conservative Punk Rockers or something like that, I googled it once and it was pretty cool. Anyway, it is a myth that all conservatives only listen to country or "classic" rock. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
And most Jews are not real happy about Christmas either..
On the other hand some Jews ARE christians...
This reply may sound like a bad joke, but it's no joke at all. I have several Jewish friends back in my old home town who love Christmas. In the words of one of them, "That's the time of year where we all hold hands 'round the cash register and sing, 'What a Friend We Have in Jesus.'" (His words, not mine!)
Don't lump atheists with Muslims. Muslims are not a "religious minority". Islam is not a religion - it is a crime syndicate. The Founding Fathers would have considered it obscene to respect the "religion" of the Barbary Pirates. The propaganda branch of Islam is evidently trying to con the sheeple into believing that Muslims love Christians (never mind the church bombings around the world). It is no coincidence that the attempts to prevent the celebration of Christmas coincide with the "recognition" of EID, Ramadan, etc. This article is reminiscent of the Nazi (and Muslim) practice of blaming everything on the Jews. Since antisemitism does not play well outside of the ME and Old Europe, a new tactic is being tried.
Atheism does not by itself define a set of moral or political beliefs. There are "atheists" who treat Marx as a god. But there are many American atheists who adhere to the principles on which America was founded. You cannot say the same about the followers of a lying, thieving, murdering pedophile.
Nuconvert, you say "Jesus is revered by Islam." So what is ur point? After all, 50% of Islamic texts were plagiarized from ancient Hebrew, Christian and Zoroastrian texts. So it is not a surprise to see Islam respecting Jesus.
Read a good book. read "Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq.
LoL... Now that was funny...
Missed the point though..
Please say you forgot to add the /sarcasm tag to the end of your post.
...but of course.
CHRISTIANS CHARGED WITH ATHEISM.
Why, then, should this be? In our case, who pledge ourselves to do no wickedness, nor to hold these atheistic opinions, you do not examine the charges made against us; but, yielding to unreasoning passion, and to the instigation of evil demons, you punish us without consideration or judgment. For the truth shall be spoken; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves, both defiled women and corrupted boys, and showed such fearful sights to men, that those who did not use their reason in judging of the actions that were done, were struck with terror; and being carried away by fear, and not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods, and gave to each the name which each of the demons chose for himself. (1) And when Socrates endeavoured, by true reason and examination, to bring these things to light, and deliver men from the demons, then the demons themselves, by means of men who rejoiced in iniquity, compassed his death, as an atheist and a profane person, on the charge that "he was introducing new divinities;" and in our case they display a similar activity. For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ; and in obedience to Him, we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, (2) but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, (2) whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue.
CHAP. VI.--CHARGE OF ATHEISM REFUTED.
Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), (3) and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.