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DISGRUNTLED TROOPS COMPLAIN TO RUMSFELD
WINS News ^ | 12/8/04

Posted on 12/08/2004 7:11:44 AM PST by areafiftyone

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1 posted on 12/08/2004 7:11:44 AM PST by areafiftyone
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To: areafiftyone

Parts of the Army have really gone soft.

I blame it on the co-ed integration of Basic Training in the 90's. I don't know who came up with that ridiculous idea.


2 posted on 12/08/2004 7:16:37 AM PST by MaineRepublic (Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripides)
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To: areafiftyone
Part of the problem is that our troops are facing weapons the Iraqis weren't supposed to have as a result of sales from our "allies".
3 posted on 12/08/2004 7:17:32 AM PST by cripplecreek (I come swinging the olive branch of peace.)
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To: areafiftyone
Rumsfeld had urged the troops - mostly National Guard and Reserve soldiers -


I bet it's mostly Reservists. The Milquetoast, spoiled brats who joined for their two weeks a year and a free education from Uncle Sam. The dredges who complain are not warriors or patriotic or against the war - they are simply SELFISH!

Same goes for National Guardsmen who joined to ride around in a boat patrolling our shores in the sunshine and enjoying a civilian lifestyle, so long as they don't have to go out of their way for the glory they only think they deserve.

Those complaining should be removed and placed in lockup - they are NOT Soldiers.
4 posted on 12/08/2004 7:24:14 AM PST by hushpad
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To: MaineRepublic
I don't know who came up with that ridiculous idea.

Wouldn't be surprised if it was NOW (National Organization for Women) who came up with the idea.

5 posted on 12/08/2004 7:24:37 AM PST by areafiftyone (Democrats = the hamster is dead but the wheel is still spinning)
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To: areafiftyone

Marine Corps solution?
Improvise, adapt, overcome!

Semper Fi,
Kelly


6 posted on 12/08/2004 7:28:48 AM PST by kellynla (U.S.M.C. 1st Battalion,5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Div. Viet Nam 69&70 Semper Fi)
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To: kellynla

Hey, it was a question and answer period. Why not ask tough questions?


7 posted on 12/08/2004 7:41:13 AM PST by swatter
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To: kellynla

Hey, it was a question and answer period. Why not ask tough questions?


8 posted on 12/08/2004 7:41:50 AM PST by swatter
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To: hushpad

Wow - you must have had some really bad experiences with Reservists and Guardsmen. Please don't paint all of us with that brush. Personally, I spent 6 years on active duty, including Panama during Operation Just Cause, before beginning my reserve tour, which just passed its 13th year. My law partner and secretary would tell you it's tough having a partner who spends seven to eight weeks away every year from his full-time practice, but they appreciate it.


9 posted on 12/08/2004 7:45:20 AM PST by jagusafr
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To: hushpad

Wow - you must have had some really bad experiences with Reservists and Guardsmen. Please don't paint all of us with that brush. Personally, I spent 6 years on active duty, including Panama during Operation Just Cause, before beginning my reserve tour, which just passed its 13th year. My law partner and secretary would tell you it's tough having a partner who spends seven to eight weeks away every year from his full-time practice, but they appreciate it.


10 posted on 12/08/2004 7:46:01 AM PST by jagusafr
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To: hushpad
Every good Platoon Sergeant teaches new 2LTs that if the soldiers are not complaining about something then you are in trouble.

Only in America could a soldier ask these questions.
11 posted on 12/08/2004 7:48:22 AM PST by fireforeffect
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: swatter

"Why not ask tough questions?"


Because you're an unpatriotic terrorist lover of liberals if you question ANYTHING this Admin does or does not do.


14 posted on 12/08/2004 7:53:01 AM PST by Blzbba (Conservative Republican - Less gov't, less spending, less intrusion.)
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To: jagusafr
Please don't paint all of us with that brush.<<<

I'm sorry. I guess it did sound like I meant ALL Reservists or National Guardsmen. I admire all of our Servicemen who joined to serve this Country, in any Branch - Like George W. Bush!

I just meant those who did join for less than patriotic reasons, of whom I have known a few.

Thank for your service jagusafr, and to those who give you the personal support that you need to TRULY serve this Country!

hushpad
15 posted on 12/08/2004 7:56:54 AM PST by hushpad
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: fireforeffect
Every good Platoon Sergeant teaches new 2LTs that if the soldiers are not complaining about something then you are in trouble.<<

I understand that. But a Soldier does not air grievances in the public forum where it can make our Military and our Country look bad to those who oppose us.
17 posted on 12/08/2004 7:58:16 AM PST by hushpad
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To: texasborn1960

So I take it you are, today, going to sign up and take their place? <<<

If I did, I certainly would not complain like a baby afterwards.


18 posted on 12/08/2004 7:59:22 AM PST by hushpad
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To: hushpad

Amen, and thanks. Unfortunately, the "I just joined for the education, that mean nasty recruiter never told me I'd actually have to USE the weapons on which they trained me!" scenario has gotten WAY too prevalent. You signed, you play. Sometimes, "Shut up and color" is the right answer!

Thanks again.


19 posted on 12/08/2004 8:01:42 AM PST by jagusafr
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To: areafiftyone

I guess their 1SG forgot to give them the "don't-bitch-and-don't-say-anything-stupid" briefing.


20 posted on 12/08/2004 8:06:27 AM PST by CheneyChick (Proud to be an OEF Vet!)
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To: jagusafr

You signed, you play.<<<<

That's how I should have put it from the start. And, don't thank me, I was wrong in the way I initially addressed the issue. No one has the right to lump the bad apples in with the good.

Thanks HEARTILY for your service to this Country!


21 posted on 12/08/2004 8:07:50 AM PST by hushpad
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To: hushpad

Reservists and National Guard do go soft. After they leave Basic and AIT training they are reintroduced to the civilian world and all of a sudden everything they learned and became accustomed to in the Army gets forgotten. I served in the Army Reserve for 6 years and you saw the new guys right out of training reporting for duty and standing at Parade Rest, saying, "Yes 1st Sgt!" or "No 1st Sgt." to any question by Top. Eventually after a couple of drills they are acting like every other weekend warrior, sometimes not even bothering to get their hair cut to regulation for the drill. Not everyone was like this, as I took it pretty seriously, but there were always a few bad apples.

I just wouldn't judge all Reservists or Guardsmen based on this, as quite a few of the guys getting maimed and killed in Iraq right now are citizen-soldiers.


22 posted on 12/08/2004 8:08:21 AM PST by MaineRepublic (Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripides)
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To: swatter

If you had ever served in the armed services you would know that there is such a thing as a "chain of command" and these Soldiers were out of line. PERIOD!

Semper Fi,
Kelly


23 posted on 12/08/2004 8:10:13 AM PST by kellynla (U.S.M.C. 1st Battalion,5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Div. Viet Nam 69&70 Semper Fi)
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To: texasborn1960
Those in congress who voted for BILLIONS in pork need to be arrested for treason. Can anyone defend that level of pork when our military needs more supplies?

Sorry, but I am not going to accept any excuse for why they military doesn't have exactly what it needs while we are wasting 10 of billions of dollars on pork projects.

You're absolutely right! Last year, part of the Homeland Security appropriations included a $50 Million greenhouse for Des Moines, Iowa. That, of course, was absolutely essential to fight the War on Terror. How much vehicle and body armor could we have purchased for the troops with $50 Million?

24 posted on 12/08/2004 8:15:46 AM PST by Uncle Vlad
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To: areafiftyone

Didn't sKerry vote against funding which would have provided the troops with additional supplies?


25 posted on 12/08/2004 8:19:07 AM PST by FairfaxVA (SELECT * FROM liberals WHERE clue > 0. Zero rows returned!)
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To: MaineRepublic

I just wouldn't judge all Reservists or Guardsmen based on this, as quite a few of the guys getting maimed and killed in Iraq right now are citizen-soldiers.<<<

I am duly chastised and accept same. With great humility, I thank you for your service along with all who sacrifice for this Country.


26 posted on 12/08/2004 8:20:21 AM PST by hushpad
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To: All

These guys are griping. They are allowed to gripe. The mistake here was the Pentagon choosing to make this session public. It's not the soldiers' fault that they asked tough questions after being invited to a session where they were told to ask tough questions.

Bad PR move from the Pentagon.


27 posted on 12/08/2004 8:21:12 AM PST by Owen
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To: areafiftyone
I'm reminded of the legendary "field-fixes" instituted by our troops in previous wars. The "hedgerow choppers" that were fabricated & welded to our tanks in Normandy. These allowed our weakly armored M4 Sherman tanks to plow through a hedgerow or berm and bypass the PAK screens waiting to chop them up along the roads.

There was also the 75mm anti-tank gun that was mounted in the nose of the B-25 Mitchell by the aircrews in New Guinea. This made the B-25 into a devastating killer of Japanese shipping. Imagine the results of a 75MM AP round slicing through to the boiler of a thin skinned transport. Catastrophic. The engineers at North American aircraft were asked to build this into subsequent models, but allegedly refused until they saw with their own eyes that it actually worked.

I only bring these up because they are famous examples of troops adapting & overcoming in the field. Those WW2 aircrews bitched. And you can believe that the WW2 Tankers were demoralized at their losses. But they overcame.

It's very difficult for any large complex supply chain to adapt to changing circumstances on the battlefield. There are always units at the point of the spear that, for whatever reason, don't get the goods, even if they are in the pipeline.

28 posted on 12/08/2004 8:23:21 AM PST by Tallguy
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: kellynla
1. What if the problem is the chain of command?

2. When the SECDEF asked for questions he should have been more prepared for zingers. NOTE: This is an AP story, do we actually know what was said?

As a current National Guard Soldier, I do object to the uninformed characterizing ARNG soldiers as weekend warriors and only there for the benefits. I and many of my fellow M-day soldiers spend at least 3 months a year on Army training. Not make work, but real training. I was there 20 years ago when there was a lot of busy work and simulated equipment. It ain't that way now.

Nothing like pulling a lanyard or seeing metal hit metal to liven up your day.
30 posted on 12/08/2004 8:39:06 AM PST by fireforeffect
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To: texasborn1960
No, you complain about them from the saftey of the United States<<<


Where I complain from is irrelevant, but it is part of my tax dollars paying the salaries of these men as well as their armaments. A United Sates Soldier should meet the highest of standards of deportment. Those who complain in the public forum put us all at risk by showing our enemies divisiveness and weakness.

War is not pretty, oftentimes supplies are low. But it is TRAITOROUS to air dirty laundry in the public forum. Argue with me all you want. My opinion of public complainers will remain as it is. My opinion of REAL SOLDIERS will as well.
31 posted on 12/08/2004 8:48:29 AM PST by hushpad
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: texasborn1960
You don't care about the soilders, you just care about the PR effort<<

Having loved ones in Iraq gives you no cause to judge me and my motivation. Sure, our Soldiers need what they need, and they should have it. But, no matter who called the public forum it would not have happened without the complaint of "soldiers". Public airings are not good for this country.

Having said that, I wish your loved ones a safe return home and I wish you peace of mind.
33 posted on 12/08/2004 9:02:15 AM PST by hushpad
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To: areafiftyone
The need for armor is largely psychological. 1/4 inch plate welded to the side of a truck may provide a measure of protection against 7.62 x 39 but won't do anything if an IED made from a 155mm shell goes off near the truck. In the case of RPG attacks, the armour skirt may do more harm than good by increasing the target area of the truck.

Furthermore, adding armour reduces the payload rating of the vehicle making additional vehicles necessary to haul the same amount of material. The additional vehicles or additional trips just increase the odds of being hit.

34 posted on 12/08/2004 9:02:34 AM PST by fso301
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To: fso301
In the movie "To Hell and Back" there is a scene where a tank commander is complaining to the ground pounders troops about how thin the armor is on his Sherman compared to a Panzer or a Tiger tank...

One of Audie Murphy's buddies replies..."Yeah?....well....just how thick do you think this GI shirt is?"
35 posted on 12/08/2004 9:42:55 AM PST by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: joesnuffy
In his book "War as I knew it" Gen. Patton described seeing his troops adding armour and sandbags to their vehicles and described it as being "the stupidest thing he ever saw" and ordered all of it removed.
36 posted on 12/08/2004 9:47:07 AM PST by fso301
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To: areafiftyone

The problem is that this administration is fighting this war on the cheap. Not enought equipment and not enough boots on the ground in order to get the job done. What this administration knows about warfighting is causing Patton to spin in his grave. but now that he has been reelected, Bush cold care less. The military has become a photo op for him and his staff.


37 posted on 12/08/2004 9:55:43 AM PST by MJM59
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To: areafiftyone
"Disgrunted U.S. soldiers..."

Former infantrymen?

38 posted on 12/08/2004 10:01:48 AM PST by verity (The Liberal Media is America's Enemy)
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To: areafiftyone
had to be the Army. You never catch a Marine unit doing this. Even if they are Reservist. No way the Marines do more with less all the time. The tax payer gets their bang for their buck with the Marines since they are only 6% of the Navy's Budget.
39 posted on 12/08/2004 10:03:54 AM PST by Sprite518
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To: hushpad

Ask yourself a simple question. If your car was unsafe to drive to work...and you had money to fix it a thousand times over...why wouldn't you fix it...at least in six months...if not twelve months? There is not a VIP in the US government who would have moved mountains to fix their own luxery VIP caddy...if it was unsafe. This is a no-brainer. There should have been a Army 0-6 appointed 12 months ago...and given the money fix every vehicle in 120 days. He should have personally reported back to Rumsfeld and reported mission accomplished back in May of this year. For any troops to have to stand there now and say that the problem isn't yet fixed...simply is garbage. Either fix the problem or get the heck out of the way.


40 posted on 12/08/2004 10:08:01 AM PST by pepsionice
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To: areafiftyone

This article, like the CNN article about this subject, really really edits out a lot of what Rumsfeld said. Both articles are designed to make him sound dismissive.

I have seen clips on Fox and CNN and he expounds much more than is indicated here.


41 posted on 12/08/2004 10:10:41 AM PST by cyncooper
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To: swatter
Why not ask tough questions?

Who said they shouldn't?

42 posted on 12/08/2004 10:11:27 AM PST by cyncooper
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To: areafiftyone

This is an AP hit-piece people! Nothing to see here, move along...the AP is trying to stir up the usual crock.


43 posted on 12/08/2004 10:12:13 AM PST by 12 Gauge Mossberg (I Approved This Posting - Paid For By Mossberg, Inc.)
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To: swatter

Never mind---I see who!

I agree with you, they are entitled to ask questions if they are in good faith.


44 posted on 12/08/2004 10:12:23 AM PST by cyncooper
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To: cyncooper

Why is that any surprise. You know the MSM motive. Especially CNN..


45 posted on 12/08/2004 10:12:39 AM PST by Sprite518
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To: Sprite518

No surprise, just pointing it out.


46 posted on 12/08/2004 10:13:18 AM PST by cyncooper
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To: areafiftyone

When WWII began, there were no B17 G's...


47 posted on 12/08/2004 10:14:22 AM PST by RobRoy (Science is about "how." Christianity is about "why.")
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To: texasborn1960
"Those in congress who voted for BILLIONS in pork need to be arrested for treason"

And let not forget the free traders that sent all or manurfactoring to China, now it appears we can not product the armor our guys need. Way to go free traitors.

48 posted on 12/08/2004 10:15:58 AM PST by jpsb
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To: Made in USA

I assume you referred to the fight on Omaha Beach because there was a Guard outfit in it, the Stonewall Brigade? They sure got one hell of a welcome to WWII. Made old Stonewall proud, I'm sure.


49 posted on 12/08/2004 10:24:02 AM PST by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
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To: hushpad
Since the time of the Romans, it has been a soldier's right to complain. I see nothing wrong with that. These men are dieing over there; the least we should do is listen to their complaints and try to be less judgemental.

You all say it, but it sounds like you do not live up to your words when you say you support our troops.

50 posted on 12/08/2004 10:33:37 AM PST by Jack of Diamonds
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