Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

How to talk to an atheist (and you must)
Townhall.com ^ | January 24, 2005 | Mike S. Adams

Posted on 01/26/2005 9:46:21 AM PST by 7thson

When I pulled into the parking lot this morning, I saw a car covered with sacrilegious bumper stickers. It seemed obvious to me that the owner was craving attention. I’m sure he was also seeking to elicit anger from people of faith. The anger helps the atheist to justify his atheism. And, all too often, the atheist gets exactly what he is looking for.

(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: atheist; christian; christianity; convertordie; cslewis; god; jesuschrist; mikesadams; religion; wrongforum
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 501-550551-600601-650 ... 751-773 next last
To: Stone Mountain
right to be obnoxious in this country

This is a common misunderstanding of the First Amendment. Rather than getting theoretical over it, let me remind you that public decency laws were upheld till very recently in this country by judges that understood the Constitution far better than the current bunch.

551 posted on 01/27/2005 10:24:32 AM PST by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 547 | View Replies]

To: MineralMan

sorry, I misunderstood your experience.

I would contend that you didn't actually die -- that your soul never actually left your body.

Have you considered that?

(I realize that you may not even believe you have a soul. I will just assert that a "blank" experience is a rather shaky prop for your beliefs.)


552 posted on 01/27/2005 10:25:29 AM PST by Zechariah_8_13 ("Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 525 | View Replies]

To: tortoise; Alamo-Girl; marron; Michael_Michaelangelo; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; PatrickHenry; ...
If we are being strictly rigorous in a mathematical sense, both sets of hypotheses (those that assert the existence of God and those that do not) are perfectly valid. However, by the same mathematics, the set of hypotheses that assert the existence of God are decidedly inferior in terms of the probability of being correct.

But this statement is absurd, tort!!! The hypotheses we humans construct re: the reality or the unreality of God can never be the measure or test of God. His reality does not depend in any way on human will or desire to prove or disprove His "existence." In other words, the ancient insight continues to be valid (and perennially so, it seems to me): Man is not the measure.

553 posted on 01/27/2005 10:30:47 AM PST by betty boop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 218 | View Replies]

To: missyme

"So are you telling me that if you had to make the decision to burn by fire or jump to your death your thought your mind is going to tell you "Well this is it, I am spending my eternity as dirt so which will be less painless fire or falling? if you do that, is that not a "CHOICE"? "

Of course it's a choice. The only difference is that I won't be thinking about some mythical "eternity." I'll be thinking about which would be the most painless death. I'd guess it would be buy jumping, but I'm not in that situation.

I would not be thinking about some choice regarding an afterlife I don't believe exists, just about the immediate situation. You might be thinking about different things than I did.

In fact, each individual in the towers who had to make such a decision had his or her own things to think about. There were Christians, Jews, Moslems, atheists, and probably Buddhists, Shintos, Jains, and Hindus in that building, each facing death. Each had a different way of looking at the situation, I'm sure.

The Hindu might wonder what he was going to be reincarnated as. You might wonder what your "Heaven" was going to be like, just as the Muslim might wonder about his "Paradise." The Buddhist...well, who knows what the Buddhist would be wondering?

The point is that everyone has some sense of the meaning of death. Yours is one sense, based on your belief in Christianity. Perhaps you can imagine no other way of thinking...I don't know. But, I can tell you that the Hindu wouldn't be thinking about Jesus, nor would followers of any of the other religions.

Yours is just one of the religions followed by human beings. Each religion answers the same questions in its own way. You, naturally, believe that yours is the correct belief, but so do the others. For each of them, the beliefs give them some apparent understanding of the meaning of life and death.

For atheists, life and death are simply life and death. It's just another way of looking at the same thing. You believe one thing...others believe otherwise. I'm afraid you simply have to accept that.


554 posted on 01/27/2005 10:32:19 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 545 | View Replies]

To: Stone Mountain

I admit, strictly speaking, to lumping weak atheists into the agnostic category, but appreciate the finer distinction of how open their mind might be to the possibility of a supreme being.

Agree completely with your definition of a strong atheist. It is my conjecture and experience that many in this category have experienced deeply traumatic experiences in their life that lead them to conclude that God can't exist, or that if He does, then He's evil for having allowed the trauma to be perpetrated on them in the first place. Their denial of God's existence is more emotional than objective.


555 posted on 01/27/2005 10:34:40 AM PST by RinaseaofDs (The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 537 | View Replies]

To: annalex

"When they get too obnoxious, force would be justified to enforce public decency.
"

Uffda! So, if they say something you don't like, blasphemy, for example, you feel justified in using force to stop them.

If my hypothetical bumper sticker said: "There is no God...damn it!" you'd feel justified in using force to stop me from saying that?

Sorry, annalex, that' ain't American.


556 posted on 01/27/2005 10:34:56 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 543 | View Replies]

To: annalex
This is a common misunderstanding of the First Amendment. Rather than getting theoretical over it, let me remind you that public decency laws were upheld till very recently in this country by judges that understood the Constitution far better than the current bunch.

Well, it's just your opinion that the judges who overturned the public decency laws understood the Constitution better than the ones who upheld them. In any case, those laws were overturned and I don't think it's misunderstanding the First Amendment to assert that we have a right to be obnosious in this country.
557 posted on 01/27/2005 10:35:50 AM PST by Stone Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 551 | View Replies]

To: DannyTN
I'd take that wager. I'm not limited to the King James version either.

Cool...Looks like I've met my match! I know what you're saying about the untrustworthy sources out there...Just try to find the historical Jesus!

Here's a trustworthy source for the 17%...Rodney Stark, a Christian professor of sociology and comparative religion. He is also the author of Victories Of Reason: How Christianity Freedom And Capitalism Led To Western Success.

1776......17%
1850......34%....1916......53%
1860......37%....1926......56%
1870......35%....1952......59%
1890......45%....1980......62%
1906......51%....1995......65%

most of the nation's leadership was Christian

That's simply not true. The founders were Deist, Christian, Jewish, Unitarian and Atheist. We have freedom of religion because there wasn't a majority of any one belief.

It's not credible that there were state religions and yet this was tolerated despite the 87% of the people not being that religion.

It wasn't tolerated
The tyranny of the state religion in Virginia was the primary reason many people joined the revolution. They began prosecuting people who refused to join the Christian church.
...
558 posted on 01/27/2005 10:37:21 AM PST by mugs99 (Restore the Constitution)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 475 | View Replies]

To: 7thson
I don't have the same reaction towards atheists, even when I see them attacking my basic religious freedoms.


559 posted on 01/27/2005 10:37:50 AM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tortoise; Alamo-Girl; marron; cornelis; Michael_Michaelangelo; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; ...
This is THE problem: theists can only convince atheists by establishing a valid prior. This it seems is nigh impossible, and so the default position remains. This is THE problem: theists can only convince atheists by establishing a valid prior. This it seems is nigh impossible, and so the default position remains.

This is a really nifty retort, tort; and would work really well if human beings lived only in their own minds, and not in their bodies, their emotional life, their connections to communities and environment, etc., etc. -- IOW, in contexts that are not limited to mental abstractions or the intellelctual life.

But they don't.

560 posted on 01/27/2005 10:40:24 AM PST by betty boop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 368 | View Replies]

To: Zechariah_8_13

"I would contend that you didn't actually die -- that your soul never actually left your body.

Have you considered that?

(I realize that you may not even believe you have a soul. I will just assert that a "blank" experience is a rather shaky prop for your beliefs.)
"

First, I'd have to posit the existence of a "soul," by which I take you to mean some force that exists apart from the body. Sorry, but that falls into the realm of things I don't believe exist, along with all other supernatural entities.

Did I actually die? Of course not. If I had, I would not be writing this. But, then, neither did the others who had these NDEs. If they're here, they didn't actually die.

Experiences identical to NDEs can be easily induced with medication. The buzzing and white light thingie is a common symptom of anoxia, and the rest can be observed by using ketamine as a sort of anesthesia. People have visions all the time.

I once had an "out of body experience" following the ingestion of a sizable dose of mescaline. I saw myself driving down the road and pulling into the garage of my house, as if I were about 100 feet above the car. The human mind is capable of all sorts of strange stuff.

No, I didn't die. Neither did the rest who have NDEs. They ALMOST died. That's why I used the term clinical death to describe what happened to me.


561 posted on 01/27/2005 10:41:17 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 552 | View Replies]

To: RinaseaofDs
I admit, strictly speaking, to lumping weak atheists into the agnostic category, but appreciate the finer distinction of how open their mind might be to the possibility of a supreme being.

Yes, many people do conflate those two categories - which I'm not crazy about, but at least it's better than conflating the strong/weak atheist categories which seems to happen way too often, particularly on threads like these. I think there is a significant difference between agnostics and weak atheists though - one has definitely made a choice as to what he believes while one has made the decision to never make that choice. I understnad that for a lot of true believers in God, this isn't a meaningful difference, but for us, the chasm is huge.
562 posted on 01/27/2005 10:43:02 AM PST by Stone Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 555 | View Replies]

To: Protagoras
In anycase, in the scenerio she gets away with it.

Nope. You don't get to invoke facts that cannot be known until after the decision has been taken and acted upon to explain the motivations for the decision. The former cannot influence the latter, unless you have some way to cause information to flow backward in time.

563 posted on 01/27/2005 10:44:45 AM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 278 | View Replies]

To: missyme
GOD is not a guessing game to me I talk to him in prayer he answers me, I believe in Jesus Christ and as a human being I don't try to figure out the Mystery of GOD and his ultimate plans however the world has been around a lot longer than I have and will be after I am long gone, I choose to beleive I will continue to live even after my body dies and decay's not out of "wishful thinking" but what GOD says about life death and eternity.

But how do you know that God's word is contained in the bible? All I'm saying is that you have made your best guess that it is, based on the evidence you had available to you - just like I made my best guess based on the evidence that I had.
564 posted on 01/27/2005 10:45:35 AM PST by Stone Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 550 | View Replies]

To: MineralMan

So In your opinion I guess spenind eternity as "Dirt" is not a choice for you it just is... And you know what I to beleive that you will end us just as dirt for eternity not that I would wish that upon you, but you have Free Will and you will reap what you sow.

SO I guess you could say both me and you beleive what will happen to you at your death..You will be Dust in the Wind FOREVER>>>


565 posted on 01/27/2005 10:46:19 AM PST by missyme (imho)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 554 | View Replies]

To: Protagoras
genocide, euthanasia are neutral

Er, genocide isn't neutral by Divine morality:

And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
--Numbers 31:12-18

566 posted on 01/27/2005 10:48:12 AM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 371 | View Replies]

To: Stone Mountain

How do I know GOD gave the Ten Commandments to Moses?
How do I know GOD created the earth and Adam and Eve?
How do I know NOah built an ark?

How do I know I am truly living on earth? Evidence from the Book of Life...


567 posted on 01/27/2005 10:48:58 AM PST by missyme (imho)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 564 | View Replies]

To: missyme
SO I guess you could say both me and you beleive what will happen to you at your death..You will be Dust in the Wind FOREVER

I believe that. I don't have a problem with that.
568 posted on 01/27/2005 10:49:05 AM PST by Stone Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 565 | View Replies]

To: betty boop

> To anyone but an atheist, these are not "dangerous questions."

Nor are they "dangerous" to atheists.

Consider:
Q1: " there was a beginning, an uncaused cause, i.e. God!"
A1: i.e.... somethign entirely else. "I don't know" does not equal God.

Q2: "i.e. a life force"
A2: Scientists ahve made living things (polio virii) from non-living molecular components. No "life force" was injected.

Q3: "Why does the organism have a will to live?"
A3: Because if it didn't, it wouldn't live, and thus wouldn't reproduce.

Q4: "the incredibly delicate physical constants, physical laws ..."
A4: Change the laws, and we become impossible. But change the laws and something *else* becomes possible.

Q5: "why our vision and mind are tuned to a particular selection of four coordinates"
A5: These are the ones that are useful for perception of our environment.

Q6: "He'd have to explain how biological semiosis arose through natural means."
A6: Look up the experiments of Urey, and the follow-on experiments of Fox.

Q7: "i.e. cardiovascular without the lungs, nervous system without the brain"
A7: Lungs and Brains aren't needed for life; note your nearest amoeba.

Q8-a: "explain how eyes developed concurrently across phyla – i.e. vertebrates and invertebrates "
A8-a: Vertebrates evolved from invertebrates after the development of eyes. Look up Pikaia.

Q8-b: "virtually no new body plans since the Cambrian Explosion"
A8-b: Because optimums can be reached. There's a reason why really fast submersibles tend to look like fish, and why subsonic aircraft look like birds or insects (helicopters). Natural forces mean that certain forms function better than others. How effective would a fish shaped like, say, a mastodon be?

Q9: "He’d have to have a natural explanation for qualia "
A9: Without them you die and don't reproduce.


Not a one of these means either that God exists or doesn't exist. The ability to answer does not negate God, the inability to answer does nto make God inevitable.

> I often wonder about the psychology of atheism, what motivates it, and what atheists hope to achieve/obtain from it.

What do you hope to achieve by believing that the world is round, or that the Earh goes round the sun? It makes no difference to the lives of the vast majority of people. You believe things because they are, to your judgement based on the evidence at hand, so.

A better thign to wonder about is the psychology of those who demand that anyone who believes very differently about the supernatural is somehow sick or evil.


569 posted on 01/27/2005 10:49:33 AM PST by orionblamblam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 549 | View Replies]

To: missyme
How do I know GOD gave the Ten Commandments to Moses? How do I know GOD created the earth and Adam and Eve? How do I know NOah built an ark?

I don't know. How? Because you believe in the inerrancy of the bible? Probably. Why do you believe the bible is inerrant? I don't know.

How do I know I am truly living on earth? Evidence from the Book of Life...

I think you have better evidence of this than you do of the above things you listed. If you are allowed to use a metaphorical "Book of Life" to justify your guess at the way the world is, can't I do the same thing? In my "Book of Life," I have seen no evidence for God.

There's no shame in admitting you're guessing. That's what we're all doing.
570 posted on 01/27/2005 10:52:39 AM PST by Stone Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 567 | View Replies]

To: Stone Mountain

Yes I guess there will be many people like you and Mineral Man that will be DUST IN THE WIND. Forgotten about forever if that's ok with you then that's okay with me...

And for many of us we will be in Paradise with the Lord, Our Loved Ones living a Glorious exsistence, I am happy with that...


571 posted on 01/27/2005 10:52:46 AM PST by missyme (imho)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 568 | View Replies]

To: steve-b
Unintelligible response to a post not directed at you and probably out of context.
572 posted on 01/27/2005 10:54:40 AM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 563 | View Replies]

To: missyme

"SO I guess you could say both me and you beleive what will happen to you at your death..You will be Dust in the Wind FOREVER"

OK, so we don't need to bother with this discussion any further. Thanks!


573 posted on 01/27/2005 10:54:45 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 565 | View Replies]

To: orionblamblam
Most of us know instinctively that theft is basically wrong. Those that don't know that instictively... well, let's hope they get religion and live in fear of eternal punishment.
Blackadder: (grabs Baldrick by the lapels) *We* are going to go to Mrs. Miggins', we're going to find out where Dr. Johnson keeps a copy of that Dictionary, and then *you* are going to steal it.
Baldrick: Me?
Blackadder: Yes, you!
Baldrick: Why me?
Blackadder: Because you burnt it, Baldrick.
Baldrick: But then I'll go to Hell forever for stealing.
Blackadder: Baldrick, believe me: eternity in the company of Beezlebub and all his hellish instruments of death will be a picnic compared to five minutes with me -- and this pencil -- if we can't replace this Dictionary.

574 posted on 01/27/2005 10:55:25 AM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: orionblamblam; Alamo-Girl; marron; Michael_Michaelangelo; js1138; tortoise; Doctor Stochastic; ...
Scientists ahve made living things (polio virii) from non-living molecular components

Not so, obb -- my understanding is this marvel was accomplished by using a living molecular base for some super-added components. [Voila!!! Polio!] So far as I am aware, there have been no successful experiments in manufacturing a living system entirely from non-living matter.

I'd love to continue with the rest of your responses; but my lunch hour is about over, and I must get back to work.

Maybe later. Thanks for your reply!

575 posted on 01/27/2005 10:55:46 AM PST by betty boop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 569 | View Replies]

To: steve-b
You are quite confused. It's clear that you have no understanding of the entire conversation I was having with another person.

If you ever make a comment that indicates you have figured it out, I'll be happy to respond. Until then, you are posting to yourself. Have a ball.

576 posted on 01/27/2005 10:57:32 AM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 566 | View Replies]

To: missyme
Yes I guess there will be many people like you and Mineral Man that will be DUST IN THE WIND. Forgotten about forever if that's ok with you then that's okay with me...

Cool. I wish that more theists were like you...
577 posted on 01/27/2005 10:59:36 AM PST by Stone Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 571 | View Replies]

To: Selkie
my family's geneaology very closely

I do the same, Selkie. The number I posted is historical fact, from a credible source, not records from family or church. If you go by the records ministers sent back to England, everyone was Christian. If I were to use my family for a source, the only Christians were the tyrants who worked for the King.
I have to go with the expert on Christianity in early America, Rodney Stark.
578 posted on 01/27/2005 11:00:55 AM PST by mugs99 (Restore the Constitution)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 481 | View Replies]

To: ArGee
That only by virtue of having bigger guns you can force people to cooperate with you?

Those of us who do not want to rape, murder and plunder have co-operated to create a society where murderers, rapists and thieves get squashed. Rather than setting up a society where the law of the jungle rules and its every man for himself, we have co-operated to increase the safety of all.

And your label of sociopaths may make you feel superior to them, but it doesn't fool me. They don't agree with your version of society? You don't agree with theirs. Why are they the sociopaths and not you?

Because the majority backs my view of society over theirs'.

The strong survive and the strong should survive.

Explain Stephen Hawking then, or Bill Gates. Being a mindless thug, no matter how strong, is not a particularly effective way to survive in our society. Similarly, if we're talking about nations, being an aggressor is usually a very good way to make all other nations gang up on you.

579 posted on 01/27/2005 11:12:58 AM PST by Modernman (What is moral is what you feel good after. - Ernest Hemingway)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 548 | View Replies]

To: RinaseaofDs
It is you who says He does NOT exists. You and other atheists. You are sure of it.

Some atheists say that. Others say that there is not enough proof to conclude that God exists.

And I'm not an atheist. I just don't buy into any man-made religion, such as Christianity.

580 posted on 01/27/2005 11:15:40 AM PST by Modernman (What is moral is what you feel good after. - Ernest Hemingway)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 523 | View Replies]

To: missyme; MineralMan; Stone Mountain
Yes I guess there will be many people like you and Mineral Man that will be DUST IN THE WIND. Forgotten about forever...

Missy, I swore that I was never going to engage you in discussion again after the last maddening experience, but I cannot let that remark go by. How dare you say such a thing? You have just decided that these people's lives have no meaning and that they have had no impact on the world around them because they don't believe in God.

If they have children, they will live on through their children and the love that they gave to them. If they have spouses, they will live on in the memories of the one left behind. If they've given time or money to a charitable organization, they will live on in the good that they did for someone else.

What you said was hateful and cruel and I don't believe for a second that Jesus would praise you for it.

581 posted on 01/27/2005 11:16:59 AM PST by SilentServiceCPOWife (Romeo&Juliet, Troilus&Crisedye, Bogey&Bacall, Gable&Lombard, Brigitte&Flav)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 571 | View Replies]

To: 7thson

Just yesterday I was shocked when I saw for the first time Calvin of 'Calvin and Hobbes' pissing on a cross. At the very next light I saw the second one I've ever seen. Why don't they just put a big sticker saying "We deserved 9-11!" That probably wouldn't even anger as many people.


582 posted on 01/27/2005 11:19:09 AM PST by Flightdeck (Liberals see Saddam's mass graves as half full. I prefer to see them as half empty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: betty boop

> my understanding is this marvel was accomplished by using a living molecular base for some super-added components.


http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_02/polio_create.shtml

"To create the virus, the researchers first assembled single nucleotide bases into DNA based on the virus' known genetic sequence. An enzyme then transcribed the DNA into the single-stranded RNA genome. The virus could then replicate itself naturally."

And from:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-11-13-new-life-usat_x.htm
"But the questions ethicists have raised about such work are numerous: Should we be playing God?"

Somebody has to!

(2 points to whoever gets the reference...)


583 posted on 01/27/2005 11:24:44 AM PST by orionblamblam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 575 | View Replies]

To: missyme

Actually... dust in the wind is a misnomer. My body will be broken down into basic components, spread into the soil and water table surrounding my "final resting place," make their way into growing flora and fauna, where little bits of me will help make life continue. Just like all of my ancestors, and the bodies of your ancestors, and the bodies of every living thing that has ever died.

But on the other hand maybe your point of view explains all the dust in my apartment...


584 posted on 01/27/2005 11:27:48 AM PST by Renderofveils (8th Engineer Bn, 1 Cav. "Cannibals!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 571 | View Replies]

To: Stone Mountain

I can appreciate the gap. Truly.

I have absolutely no issue with weak atheists and with agnostics. None. Doubt exists - perfect. I have doubt too. Without it, I'd either be certifiable, or a prophet. Either one is bad. Prophets have hard jobs.

Strong atheists tend to be more militant, and more activists, while at the same time maintaining this surety that is not logically supportable. I wouldn't have an issue with strong atheists either if they weren't trying to undermine the some of the stronger traditions upon which the US was founded.

I am fascinated by agnostics, when you can get them to talk about it.


585 posted on 01/27/2005 11:28:40 AM PST by RinaseaofDs (The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 562 | View Replies]

To: SilentServiceCPOWife

"Missy, I swore that I was never going to engage you in discussion again after the last maddening experience, but I cannot let that remark go by. How dare you say such a thing? You have just decided that these people's lives have no meaning and that they have had no impact on the world around them because they don't believe in God.

If they have children, they will live on through their children and the love that they gave to them. If they have spouses, they will live on in the memories of the one left behind. If they've given time or money to a charitable organization, they will live on in the good that they did for someone else."




Thanks for that. Still, it's OK if missyme feels that way. She can't "decide" anything about me or anyone else.

The way she feels is the way a lot of what I call "baby Christians" feel. They often have recently come to a belief in Christianity, but have little information beyond what is on the surface about what that means.

They have little Biblical knowledge, nor have they learned the lessons recorded in the Gospels about how to treat others they may encounter in their lives.

Many "baby Christians" grow in their faith and learn what Christianity is all about. They stop doing such things then. I can't get angry at them...they're just acting on an imperfectly-formed faith.

I don't know that missyme is a "baby Christian," but it's a possibility.


586 posted on 01/27/2005 11:29:35 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 581 | View Replies]

To: betty boop
Thank you oh so very much for all of your excellent insight and especially for the encouragements!

I often wonder about the psychology of atheism, what motivates it, and what atheists hope to achieve/obtain from it. I guess in the end, atheists somehow believe that God is dangerous in some way to their personal well-being (however understood). But this strikes me as being an absolute inversion of natural truth. Still, inverted truth seems to have many champions these days. I wouldn't know how else to explain a Michael Newdow, a Richard Lewontin, a Noam Chomsky, et al., than that they are "inverted" (unnatural) people, trying to invert the world into a "more pleasing shape." (E.g., as much unlike the one God "shaped" as possible.... FWIW

Indeed, so very true and well said!

I've had a tendency over the years to view atheists by three types: the ordinary atheist who doesn't believe but doesn't mind if you do, the pondering atheist who wants to present his reasoning (as if always reevaluating his own thoughts) and the evangelical atheist who insists that nobody else ought believe in God. IMHO, the Newdow's and Lewontin's are evangelical - using every power at their disposal to influence others.

587 posted on 01/27/2005 11:30:36 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 549 | View Replies]

To: MineralMan

Two questions for you, if I may. Have you ever believed? If so, what made you stop?


588 posted on 01/27/2005 11:30:41 AM PST by PleaseNoMore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: MineralMan; Stone Mountain
MineralMan: If my hypothetical bumper sticker said: "There is no God...damn it!" you'd feel justified in using force to stop me from saying that?

Public blasphemy or other public insult is a violation of rights unless the receiver of the message had consented to it. It would be fine in an environment which one enters knowingly, such as this forum. It is not fine on the public square if it violates the decency norm. Your comment is mild enough so it is not violative, and in fact the public square in the United States has deteriorated to such extent that it is hard to imagine anything to be below the pale. Nevertheless if some punk on the street, for example, yells at people that their wifes are ugly sluts and their children are cretins, such punk will be hauled away. The offence of plasphemy in justice should be treated no differently.

Stone Mountain: it's just your opinion that the judges who overturned the public decency laws understood the Constitution better than the ones who upheld them

I assume you meant the exact opposite. It is not just mine opinion: it is also the opinion of any conservative I know. These are the judges that gave us the IRS, the Social Security, undeclared by Conress foreign expeditions, the gun laws, and the hate crime laws, -- all in clear contradiction to the Constitution, -- and who invented the right to abortion from the constitutional penumbras. Besides, the 19 century judges were simply closer to the Founding Fathers in mentality and had a better grasp on the original intent of the Constitution.

589 posted on 01/27/2005 11:30:42 AM PST by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 556 | View Replies]

To: annalex
I assume you meant the exact opposite.

I did - thanks!

It is not just mine opinion: it is also the opinion of any conservative I know. These are the judges that gave us the IRS, the Social Security, undeclared by Conress foreign expeditions, the gun laws, and the hate crime laws, -- all in clear contradiction to the Constitution, -- and who invented the right to abortion from the constitutional penumbras. Besides, the 19 century judges were simply closer to the Founding Fathers in mentality and had a better grasp on the original intent of the Constitution.

Well, not ANY conservative... I'm sure there are people here on this forum (even besides me) who don't have a problem with blasphemous speech being legal. The other things you mentioned may be problems, but are unrelated to this issue.
590 posted on 01/27/2005 11:36:14 AM PST by Stone Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 589 | View Replies]

To: PleaseNoMore

"Two questions for you, if I may. Have you ever believed? If so, what made you stop?

"

Two answers for you. Yes, and it's a long story that I am not going to post here.


591 posted on 01/27/2005 11:37:19 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 588 | View Replies]

To: annalex
Nevertheless if some punk on the street, for example, yells at people that their wifes are ugly sluts and their children are cretins, such punk will be hauled away.

I live in downtown Oakland and hear things directed at myself and others worse than that all the time. I have yet to see one person get hauled away for this...
592 posted on 01/27/2005 11:38:46 AM PST by Stone Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 589 | View Replies]

To: MineralMan
You're welcome. I just can't understand why it is a personal affront to people that you don't believe. And why that drives people to attack you. You have remained calm and rational throughout this entire thread and you haven't tried to convince anyone that their belief is wrong. I suppose it's your certainty makes people uncomfortable.
593 posted on 01/27/2005 11:39:08 AM PST by SilentServiceCPOWife (Romeo&Juliet, Troilus&Crisedye, Bogey&Bacall, Gable&Lombard, Brigitte&Flav)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 586 | View Replies]

To: SilentServiceCPOWife

Excuse Me..
They are the ones who have Chosen to believe this way. They deny GOD they deny Jesus they have chosen there own path.

Why would GOD choose to remember them when they have chose to deny him?

AS fas as there loved ones go, they don't plan on seeing or ever hearing from them again after there physical death.

I never wished these things for Un-believing Atheists they have chosen it for themselves.


594 posted on 01/27/2005 11:40:14 AM PST by missyme (imho)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 581 | View Replies]

To: annalex

"Public blasphemy or other public insult is a violation of rights unless the receiver of the message had consented to it. It would be fine in an environment which one enters knowingly, such as this forum. It is not fine on the public square if it violates the decency norm. Your comment is mild enough so it is not violative, and in fact the public square in the United States has deteriorated to such extent that it is hard to imagine anything to be below the pale. Nevertheless if some punk on the street, for example, yells at people that their wifes are ugly sluts and their children are cretins, such punk will be hauled away. The offence of plasphemy in justice should be treated no differently. "

I'm sorry, but that's utter nonsense. Blasphemy, in itself, is not illegal, nor should it be. Indeed, your example fo the street punk is wrong, as well. He can freely do what you said and, while he might face retribution from the hearer, will not be arrested.

Blasphemy is a simple thing and may be directed at any deity you wish. I might say that Kali is a lying, thieving, murderous bitch. That is blasphemy. I could say, as has been said on this forum that Allah is a false diety and that its followers are criminals. That is blasphemy. Such an utterance would engender only amusement in this country, while it would create anger elsewhere.

What you're referring to is blasphemy only against the locally popular deity in the USA. That is not illegal, and should never be illegal.

When we lose the freedom to declare that there is no God, or that the popular God is a bully, we lose all of our freedom of speech. That is an opinion, and opinions are protected in the USA.

I would not say those things, nor would I put an anti-religious bumpersticker on my vehicle. I would, however, reserve my right to do so if I chose to. That right is one which I served in our nation's military to protect, and the oath I affirmed at that time is still in effect.


595 posted on 01/27/2005 11:44:55 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 589 | View Replies]

To: MineralMan

A Baby Christian hmmm really never heard that before, but I will tell you this As a Child of GOD I talk to him all the time I ask him for many things and I pray for where I fail in my life and you know what he answers me he guides me he has NEVER failed me NEVER. If that makes me a Baby Christian then that's okay...


596 posted on 01/27/2005 11:45:00 AM PST by missyme (imho)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 586 | View Replies]

To: missyme
AS fas as there loved ones go, they don't plan on seeing or ever hearing from them again after there physical death. Why would I plan on such a thing? Does it matter that I take time every year to go to my grandfather's favorite fishing hole because I know he loved fishing there? (Even if I don't...) Most likely not to you, but it matters a great deal to me, and would to him if he were still alive. I think that it shows respect to one of the many family members I owe my being to. Honor thy father and mother as a metaphor, maybe?
597 posted on 01/27/2005 11:48:32 AM PST by Renderofveils (8th Engineer Bn, 1 Cav. "Cannibals!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 594 | View Replies]

To: SilentServiceCPOWife

THE LAW OF GOD...
I see nothing that makes exceptions for Atheists.


I am the Lord your G-d, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery"


"You shall have no other gods but me"


"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain"


"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy"


"Honor your father and mother"


"You shall not murder"


"You shall not commit adultery"


"You shall not steal"


"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"


"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his bull, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."


598 posted on 01/27/2005 11:49:15 AM PST by missyme (imho)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 581 | View Replies]

To: SilentServiceCPOWife

"I just can't understand why it is a personal affront to people that you don't believe."

It is not an affront to anyone who is secure in his or her faith. It is only an affront to those who doubt, or to those who believe they have some calling to condemn all unbelievers. At least that's my opinion on the matter.

It has never concerned me that most people have some sort of religious beliefs. I can't imagine why I'd be upset by that. That's why I don't mind if folks worship however they choose. Why would I?

There are some religionists, though, who feel otherwise about those who disbelieve or who believe otherwise than themselves. Wars have been fought over such things, and not just a few. It's a sad thing, to me, since I believe that the realm of faith is a personal realm and has nothing to do with anyone but onesself.

Oh well...this has been a long thread and I'm just about out of steam.


599 posted on 01/27/2005 11:50:10 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 593 | View Replies]

To: Nicholas Conradin
The issue is, no one is forcing him to swear allegiance to anything...HE is attempting to keep the rest of us from being able to swear our allegiance to what the vast majority of us hold to be truths.
600 posted on 01/27/2005 11:51:27 AM PST by Regina (regina)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 501-550551-600601-650 ... 751-773 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson