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FairTax.Org HR25
WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG ^ | Last Week | Thomas Leser

Posted on 02/13/2005 10:41:05 AM PST by nsmart

The FairTax is the non-partisan national sales tax proposal that would replace all federal income taxes. These include personal, estate, gift, self-employment, alternative minimum, capital gains, FICA, and corporate and death taxes.

(Excerpt) Read more at WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: consumptiontax; endincometax; fairtax; fairtaxorg; hr25; incometaxes; taxes; taxreform
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Support FairTax, a simpler tax system

The FairTax is the non-partisan national sales tax proposal that would replace all federal income taxes. These include personal, estate, gift, self-employment, alternative minimum, capital gains, FICA, and corporate and death taxes. It is estimated that Americans spend in the range of $250 billion to $500 billion every year in income tax compliance costs.

Under FairTax, used items and business-to-business purchases for the production of goods and services are not taxed. Only new goods and services for personal consumption would be taxed.

An initial reaction is that the price of goods and services will increase. However, this is quite the opposite. With the current tax system, companies have to pass their tax and compliance costs on to the consumer. Dale Jorgenson, former Harvard University economics department chairman, projected an average product price reduction of 20 percent to 30 percent in the first year after adoption of the FairTax.

Most importantly the FairTax is fair. It protects the lower-income individuals and families by providing a monthly rebate on expenditures up to the poverty level. Those spending at or below the poverty level will pay no tax. If the large corporate bigwigs want to spend their multi-million dollar salaries on expensive luxuries, then they will be taxed more; but if they choose to invest their money back into the company, the employees or the community, then they will be taxed less.

I strongly urge the readers to visit the Americans For Fair Taxation Web site at www.FairTax.org to learn more about this.

1 posted on 02/13/2005 10:41:05 AM PST by nsmart
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To: nsmart



Will we ever get rid of the DEATH TAX aka the Estate tax?

I think It's time for another Boston Tea Party.


2 posted on 02/13/2005 10:43:32 AM PST by LauraleeBraswell (Forgive Russia, Ignore Germany, Punish France - Condoleezza Rice)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

This one gets rid of all income tax.. for us and corporations.. Less than 40% pay income tax anyway.. no more favors in the tax code.. no more IRS.. no more 300 billion in compliance costs..


3 posted on 02/13/2005 10:45:54 AM PST by nsmart
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To: nsmart
Dale Jorgenson, former Harvard University economics department chairman, projected an average product price reduction of 20 percent to 30 percent in the first year after adoption of the FairTax.

What a nutty claim. Taking out the same amount of tax will not have a dramatic impact on prices. I hate the over the top phoney claims the Fair Tax people have been making for years. Their analysis makes global warming scientist look honest.

4 posted on 02/13/2005 10:46:46 AM PST by Always Right
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To: nsmart
This tax would be the greatest "freedom for individuals" act since 1776.

No more KGB/IRS troops...

More - much - $ in our pockets, businesses with much more $, translates into more jobs, no "April 15th", ...just keeps on giving

5 posted on 02/13/2005 10:47:10 AM PST by maine-iac7 (...but you can't fool all of the people all of the time - LINCOLN)
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To: nsmart; ancient_geezer

ping


6 posted on 02/13/2005 10:47:23 AM PST by groanup (http://www.fairtax.org)
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To: Always Right

Without an income tax, the USA will become a tax haven for the richest of the rich.. imagine the growth in the economy.


7 posted on 02/13/2005 10:48:17 AM PST by nsmart
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To: nsmart

Stick around everybody. You're about to see some real discussion about this.


8 posted on 02/13/2005 10:48:17 AM PST by groanup (http://www.fairtax.org)
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To: nsmart
and actually - this would mean the super rich REALLY do pay the most - so why are the dims against it? (maybe because with all the IRS loopholes for the rich, they don't now?)
9 posted on 02/13/2005 10:49:00 AM PST by maine-iac7 (...but you can't fool all of the people all of the time - LINCOLN)
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To: groanup

I certainly hope we get some real discussion.

I honestly think the US would attract investments from all over the world. After all -- taxing investments is soooo dumb. Investments are in the mattress - they are building houses, they are creating jobs, they are buying new machinery.


10 posted on 02/13/2005 10:50:10 AM PST by nsmart
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To: Always Right

What is nutty?


11 posted on 02/13/2005 10:50:12 AM PST by Principled
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To: Always Right
I hate the over the top phoney claims the Fair Tax people have been making for years.

So what is your analysis?

12 posted on 02/13/2005 10:52:31 AM PST by groanup (http://www.fairtax.org)
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To: maine-iac7

The Democrats like the ability to make a change in the tax code and applaud themselves .. they like the engineering in the code.

In my opinion, the Patriot Act is a pussy cat next to what I have to tell the IRS.


13 posted on 02/13/2005 10:52:50 AM PST by nsmart
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To: Always Right
Did you know that hidden income taxes and the cost of complying with them currently make up 20 percent or more percent of all retail prices? It's true. According to Dr. Dale Jorgenson of Harvard University, hidden income taxes are passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices - from an average 22 percent on goods to an average 25 percent on services - for everything you buy. If competition does not allow prices to rise, corporations lower labor costs, again hurting those who can least afford to lose their jobs. Finally, if prices are as high as competition allows and labor costs are as low as practical, profits/dividends to shareholders are driven down, thereby hurting retirement savings for moms-and-pops and pension funds invested in Corporate America.

With the FairTax, the sham of corporate taxation ends, competition drives prices down, more people in America have jobs, and retirement/pension funds see improved performance.

14 posted on 02/13/2005 10:53:19 AM PST by Principled
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To: nsmart; Taxman; Principled; EternalVigilance; rwrcpa1; phil_will1; kevkrom; n-tres-ted; Zon; ...
A Taxreform bump for you all.

If you would like to be added to this ping list let me know.

John Linder in the House(HR25) & Saxby Chambliss Senate(S25), offer a comprehensive bill to kill all income and SS/Medicare payroll taxes outright, and provide a IRS free replacement in the form of a retail sales tax:

H.R.25,S.25
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.

Refer for additional information:


15 posted on 02/13/2005 10:53:36 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: Principled
Forgot to add: synopsis of Fair Tax nrst
16 posted on 02/13/2005 10:54:22 AM PST by Principled
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To: LauraleeBraswell

The Fair Tax Act, repeals all federal income, payroll, and gift/estate taxes.


17 posted on 02/13/2005 10:55:26 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: nsmart
I certainly hope we get some real discussion.

If history is any guide this could be the longest thread you have ever posted. This issue needs vetting. I have been an advocate of the Fair Tax for years and the more we look at it the more I like it. It isn't perfect and it still allows way too much government revenue but it's the best proposal on the table.

18 posted on 02/13/2005 10:56:15 AM PST by groanup (http://www.fairtax.org)
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To: nsmart

Percent, please.


19 posted on 02/13/2005 10:56:43 AM PST by truth_seeker
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To: ancient_geezer

thanks ancient_geezer


20 posted on 02/13/2005 10:57:12 AM PST by nsmart
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To: groanup

Thoreau went to Walden Pond to protest taxes. Today a SWAT team would be sent in, his cabin burned, and he would shoot himself in the back. The papers would applaud the death of the "White Separatist".

I hate the federal boot on my individual neck. If HR25 passes, taxes again become voluntary. States collect them. If I get mad, I can purchase only used goods.


21 posted on 02/13/2005 11:00:48 AM PST by nsmart
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To: truth_seeker
I say the sales tax rate is 30%... it will add 30% onto the shelf price. Of course, with no income/payroll tax system, prices will drop by that much before the sales tax is added... making prices stay about the same.

Another way to look at the rate is percent of spending absorbed by the tax. That rate is 23%... Buy an item for $77 and there's 23 tax ... 23/100 = 23%... this is how income tax is figured - I use this rate to compare to today's system...

Hope that helps

22 posted on 02/13/2005 11:04:54 AM PST by Principled
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To: Always Right

Taking out the same amount of tax will not have a dramatic impact on prices.

Removing the tax system collecting those income and payroll taxes from the backs of business removes the overhead costs associated with those businesses as well. That provides substantial potential for cost savings and reduction of prices out of competition for the consumer/investor's dollar.

I hate the over the top phoney claims the Fair Tax people have been making for years. Their analysis makes global warming scientist look honest.

Strange I could make a rather similar statement about those that deliberately obscure how the NRST actually impacts business overhead costs by reducing them not only by the amount of tax but the overhead associated with tax avoidence & planning, accounting and reporting, as well as the costs that government imposes on a business in audits, litigation & legal fees when the business person's crystal ball is as cloudy as the IRS and the IRS chooses to make an example of them, not to mention the fines, and penalties assessed when the IRS' tax court takes its final cut out of the hide of the hapless victim.

And that does not even begin to account for the loss of sales revenue from lowered demand for products due to higher pricing required as a consequence of the the above.

23 posted on 02/13/2005 11:06:01 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: Always Right
First of all corporations don't pay income tax. It is past along to the consumer in tie price of the goods or service provided. So when the business no longer have to pay the income tax the cost of doing business goes down.

The argument now is, "Now the greedy corporations will want to keep all that profit". What you are not considering is the "free market". Other people who also provide the same goods/service will lower their price to gain market share, in effect, a price war. Hence lower prices to the consumer.

It's free market economics pure and simple. Market competition creates lower costs for the consumer.

Chris
24 posted on 02/13/2005 11:08:26 AM PST by cdtracing
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To: Principled
What is nutty?

Price going down 30-40% the first year is purs bullcrap. You would have to save some 3 Trillion dollars for that to happen. It is pure quackery at its finest.

25 posted on 02/13/2005 11:09:34 AM PST by Always Right
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To: ancient_geezer

Imagine a phi beta kappa who graduates at the top of his class. Imagine the possibilities.. he could start a business that employs 200 people, or become a scientist who discovers a renewable energy source or a doctor who cures some dread disease...

but instead, he becomes a tax attorney.. and produces...

NOTHING.. what a sad loss of human capital!


26 posted on 02/13/2005 11:09:44 AM PST by nsmart
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To: Always Right

A tax must be broad to be fair. We know Reagan gave us a broad tax and the economy flourished.. but what happened after should show us just how ill conceived a flat tax idea is. It won't stay flat and as long as we keep records and the fed taxes us individually, we are not free.

The fair tax sends everyone a pre-bate up to the cost of living taxes each month.


27 posted on 02/13/2005 11:12:56 AM PST by nsmart
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To: Always Right
Price going down 30-40% the first year is purs bullcrap.

Who is saying that?

28 posted on 02/13/2005 11:13:00 AM PST by Principled
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To: nsmart

I would love to see a tax system like this pass. I own a small home based business and pay so much tax I can hardly stay in business. I pay cash for everything (used) because I never know what the next 6 months earnings might be so I have to keep my dept low. I'm tired of paying a higher % of tax than folks like John Kerry while he travels around in his jet I'm driving a 10 yr old car and working 10 hour days.


29 posted on 02/13/2005 11:13:25 AM PST by mammer
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To: Principled
Did you know that hidden income taxes and the cost of complying with them currently make up 20 percent or more percent of all retail prices?

Actually I wish you could get your numbers straight. First they say $300 billion, which is already on the high side, then they go to this ridiculous 20% number, which is a magnitude higher than the 300 billion number. On top of that you won't even be saving that 300 billion because there will be similar compliance costs with the sales tax regardless of what the nutty professors say. The NRST/Fari Tax hype is based mostly on fraudlant analysis.

30 posted on 02/13/2005 11:13:46 AM PST by Always Right
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To: cdtracing
It's free market economics pure and simple. Market competition creates lower costs for the consumer.

The last time I checked we already have a free market and market forces keeping our prices low. This is really getting stupid.

31 posted on 02/13/2005 11:16:06 AM PST by Always Right
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To: maine-iac7
The reason the "Dim's" are against it is because most of them congress critters don't pay the same tax rates us peons do. With all the corporate investments and tax loop holes they written for them selves they would now be paying their share of the taxes instead of the paltry amount they pay now.

Chris
32 posted on 02/13/2005 11:16:52 AM PST by cdtracing
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To: Always Right

My $300 billion is cost of compliance.. not income tax. Its the H&R Blocks and the Corp tax attorneys.. trying NOT to pay taxes. Its the decisions we make to avoid taxes, too.


33 posted on 02/13/2005 11:16:56 AM PST by nsmart
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To: Always Right
And your analysis? Ahem... you don't have one?

Oh.. well I guess I'll go with PhDs and LLMs in taxation over an internet message from someone who... doesn't even HAVE an analysis....

If you would like to put forth an analysis, then you could make some headway... but to simply call experts wrong because you... well, why do you think they're wrong?! Do you HAVE anything indicating an error - or just your li'l ole opinion?

34 posted on 02/13/2005 11:17:27 AM PST by Principled
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To: groanup
So what is your analysis?

I gave you my anaylsis. You suck 2.5 Trillion out of the economy, it will have the same net effect on prices no matter what your method of suxation is. Fair tax people create lower prices out of thin air. It is all phoney,

35 posted on 02/13/2005 11:17:49 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Always Right
The last time I checked we already have a free market and market forces keeping our prices low.

Right - always... and if the entire economy could strip out 25% of it's operating costs, prices would adjust to this new level due to the very same competition that keeps prices low - you know the system you recently checked...

36 posted on 02/13/2005 11:19:33 AM PST by Principled
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To: Principled
I say the sales tax rate is 30%... it will add 30% onto the shelf price. Of course, with no income/payroll tax system, prices will drop by that much before the sales tax is added... making prices stay about the same.

But the nutty professor is saying prices will drop 20-30%.

37 posted on 02/13/2005 11:20:32 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Always Right
The NRST/Fair Tax hype is based mostly on fraudulent analysis

Again, the Fair Tax organization along with economists and economic departments of universities have done analysis. Where is your analysis?

38 posted on 02/13/2005 11:20:49 AM PST by groanup (http://www.fairtax.org)
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To: Always Right

"Our system freed the individual genius of man. We allocate resources not by goverment decision but by the millions of decisions customers make when they go into the market place. If something seems too high-priced, we buy something else. So resources are steered toward those things people want most at the price they are willing to pay." Reagan


39 posted on 02/13/2005 11:21:00 AM PST by nsmart
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To: Always Right
Fair tax people create lower prices

No they don't. Prices will be the SAME after the fair tax... who told you after tax prices would be lower?

40 posted on 02/13/2005 11:21:03 AM PST by Principled
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To: nsmart

What will all the accountants and tax lawyers do for livings? ;^)


41 posted on 02/13/2005 11:21:11 AM PST by hoosiermama (It's more than an election...It's a change of heart....an enlightenment....life is important)
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To: Principled
Dale Jorgenson, former Harvard University economics department chairman, projected an average product price reduction of 20 percent to 30 percent in the first year after adoption of the FairTax.
42 posted on 02/13/2005 11:21:27 AM PST by Always Right
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To: hoosiermama
What will all the accountants and tax lawyers do for livings? ;^)

There is still plenty of accounting to do and there is still tax compliance. Tax compliance is just a small aspect.

43 posted on 02/13/2005 11:22:40 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Always Right
THat's right - pretax prices will dro 20-30 (inclusive) the first year

Do you know how to translate from inclusive to exclusive? Did you know there was a difference?

44 posted on 02/13/2005 11:22:43 AM PST by Principled
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To: Always Right

My point exatly. with the corporat income taxes eliminated the market will force the prices down.

Chris


45 posted on 02/13/2005 11:22:50 AM PST by cdtracing
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To: groanup

Me thinks we have a contrarian in our midst.


46 posted on 02/13/2005 11:23:18 AM PST by nsmart
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To: Always Right

20-30 is not 30-40. check yer posts.


47 posted on 02/13/2005 11:23:27 AM PST by Principled
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To: cdtracing

Not to mention corporations coming back to America. And stripping the products of all the built in taxes will mean our products will once again be able to compete overseas.


48 posted on 02/13/2005 11:24:38 AM PST by nsmart
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To: Principled
20-30 is not 30-40. check yer posts.

It is still fantasy bullshit, either way. We will be lucky if prices stay the same.

49 posted on 02/13/2005 11:25:10 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Principled
THat's right - pretax prices will dro 20-30 (inclusive) the first year

That is not what he said or how the statement was presented.

50 posted on 02/13/2005 11:25:59 AM PST by Always Right
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