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Schiavo Case Spurs More Christophobia
David Limbaugh ^ | March 30, 2005 | David Limbaugh

Posted on 04/02/2005 1:37:42 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe

I talked about Christophobia in my book "Persecution," written almost two years ago, so I hope no one accuses me of stealing the term. But it is rearing its head again in light of the Schiavo case. It makes a lot of people, including some Christians, even Republican Christians, when Christians join together to influence current events or politics. Today, former Missouri Senator and friend of the family, John Danforth, published an op-ed in the New York Times lamenting the increasing Christianization of the Republican Party -- my paraphrase.

Danforth's column begins:

By a series of recent initiatives, Republicans have transformed our party into the political arm of conservative Christians. The elements of this transformation have included advocacy of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, opposition to stem cell research involving both frozen embryos and human cells in petri dishes, and the extraordinary effort to keep Terri Schiavo hooked up to a feeding tube.

A little later in the piece he writes:

I do not fault religious people for political action. Since Moses confronted the pharaoh, faithful people have heard God's call to political involvement. Nor has political action been unique to conservative Christians. Religious liberals have been politically active in support of gay rights and against nuclear weapons and the death penalty. In America, everyone has the right to try to influence political issues, regardless of his religious motivations.

The problem is not with people or churches that are politically active. It is with a party that has gone so far in adopting a sectarian agenda that it has become the political extension of a religious movement.

When government becomes the means of carrying out a religious program, it raises obvious questions under the First Amendment. But even in the absence of constitutional issues, a political party should resist identification with a religious movement.

When government becomes the means of carrying out a religious program, it raises obvious questions under the First Amendment. But even in the absence of constitutional issues, a political party should resist identification with a religious movement. While religions are free to advocate for their own sectarian causes, the work of government and those who engage in it is to hold together as one people a very diverse country. At its best, religion can be a uniting influence, but in practice, nothing is more divisive. For politicians to advance the cause of one religious group is often to oppose the cause of another.

I find this very disappointing. Christians lobby politicians, some of whom are Christians or those who otherwise share their values, others aren't and don't. In our system of government, any individual or group should feel free to lobby politicians on any basis whatsoever. And the fact that politicians sometimes adopt policies in sync with those values, does not "raise obvious questions under the First Amendment." If that were true, the entire Constitution would be suspect since it was crafted predominantly by Christians and incorporated Christian principles.

Danforth says the party should avoid identification with a religious movement. Why? Aha. He answers the question: because to do so might not promote unity in "a diverse country." I find this an incredible capitulation to the so-called multicultural movement, which has been chipping away at the unique American culture, Western civilization, and Judeo-Christian values for years. Mr. Danforth, I suppose, would have us abandon our values for the sake of "getting along."

With all due respect for a man I genuinely respect, this is nonsense and wrongheaded. It is analogous to the fuzzy thinking that says we can't legislate morality. We can't incorporate our values into our laws, either legislatively or judicially. But it is impossible not to pass laws in a values-void. Almost all of our criminal and civil laws are grounded in moral principles and seek to vindicate moral principles.

Mr. Danforth's real problem with all this is not the intermixture of church and state or religious people influencing government, but the type of values that are being promoted by a strong grassroots Christian movement. He reveals as much with these paragraphs:

During the 18 years I served in the Senate, Republicans often disagreed with each other. But there was much that held us together. We believed in limited government, in keeping light the burden of taxation and regulation. We encouraged the private sector, so that a free economy might thrive. We believed that judges should interpret the law, not legislate. We were internationalists who supported an engaged foreign policy, a strong national defense and free trade. These were principles shared by virtually all Republicans.

But in recent times, we Republicans have allowed this shared agenda to become secondary to the agenda of Christian conservatives. As a senator, I worried every day about the size of the federal deficit. I did not spend a single minute worrying about the effect of gays on the institution of marriage. Today it seems to be the other way around.

You see, what bothers Mr. Danforth, obviously, is that the wrong values are being emphasized. He is basically saying that he's an economic conservative (I have my doubts about that too, by the way), but not so much a social conservative (though he opposes judicial activism). He doesn't like it that legislators are worked up about social issues, such as gay marriage or euthanasia.

That's essentially the difference between Libertarians and conservatives. Libertarians are mostly nauseated by Christian conservatives getting all worked up about social issues. Mr. Danforth, while probably far from a Libertarian, appears to share this revulsion. But it's unfortunate that Mr. Danforth characterizes this as a systemic problem rather than just a disagreement on policy. People who are not social conservatives often fear the coordination of those who are and therefor seek to characterize it as something threatening to our democratic and republican processes, when it is anything but. There is nothing healthier to representative government than for genuinely motivated groups to attempt, within the law, to influence policy. Nothing could better define the essence of our participatory government.

Mr. Danforth further reveals his true concern with this closing paragraph:

The historic principles of the Republican Party offer America its best hope for a prosperous and secure future. Our current fixation on a religious agenda has turned us in the wrong direction. It is time for Republicans to rediscover our roots.

I beg to disagree -- strongly. We Christian conservatives are not focusing on a religious agenda, but on policies that are consistent with our principles -- the most important one being "the sanctity of life." If we don't recapture our culture from the systematic attacks on it, we can forget about economic issues. Nothing is more foundationally important to our liberties and to the preservation of our republic than our underlying values, which we abandon at our peril.

Mr. Danforth, and others, have it backward. Christians are not trying to take over the system and convert it to some sort of a theocracy. We are not the aggressors. We are merely reacting to the systematic destruction of our culture and the undermining of the Judeo-Christian values that undergird it.

And Mr. Danforth, himself a Christian, is not the only one complaining. Here's an article in the Omaha World Herald offering advice to Republicans as to how they can prevent the party's takeover by the religious right -- something Mr. Danforth clearly believes has already occurred.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: danforth; diversity; multiculturalism; neologism; schiavorepublic; shesaliveinchristjim; theocracy

1 posted on 04/02/2005 1:37:44 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
We Christian conservatives are not focusing on a religious agenda, but on policies that are consistent with our principles -- the most important one being "the sanctity of life." If we don't recapture our culture from the systematic attacks on it, we can forget about economic issues. Nothing is more foundationally important to our liberties and to the preservation of our republic than our underlying values, which we abandon at our peril.
God bless David Limbaugh.

Committed Christians must be more vigilant than ever.

2 posted on 04/02/2005 1:41:41 PM PST by k2blader (If suicide is immoral, then helping it happen, regardless of motivation, is also immoral.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Bump for later.


3 posted on 04/02/2005 1:42:07 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Karol Wojtyla, my brother, thank you for being you. Rest in Joy.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
We Christian conservatives are not focusing on a religious agenda, but on policies that are consistent with our principles

What's ironic here is the even Limbaugh is apparently too embarrassed to admit that Christian conservative political principles really are a religious agenda. Why should we hide from that and act like we're ashamed? How can Limbaugh attack Danforth for being against the Christianization of the GOP and then in the same article sheepishly try to say Christian conservatives don't have a religious political agenda? Looks like the left has gotten Limbaugh feeling guilty about himself too.

Wake up, Davey. WE DO have a religious agenda!

4 posted on 04/02/2005 1:48:43 PM PST by Crackingham
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Some voices out of the past:

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
John Jay, letter to Jedidiah Morse 28 Feb 1797

“Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
--- John Adams

“A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.”
--- Samuel Adams


5 posted on 04/02/2005 1:50:23 PM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
"Since Moses confronted the pharaoh, faithful people have heard God's call to political involvement." - Danforth

Apparently Danforth considers slavery of a people to be a political issue, not a moral one. I guess he also considers the sanctity of life to be a political issue, not a moral one. If all moral issues (excessive taxation, same-sex marriage, teaching abstinence, etc.) can be transformed into political ones, it's easy to make the leap of equating Christians to jihadists. See how that works? The game is afoot.....

6 posted on 04/02/2005 1:51:27 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: Tailgunner Joe
"Nothing is more foundationally important to our liberties and to the preservation of our republic than our underlying values, which we abandon at our peril."

And those of us who have not abandoned them seem to be on the receiving end of rancor from those who have, or at least those who have been willing to fudge on them a little here and there (a little here, a little there, and pretty soon they're incrementally abandoned).

I was just on another thread where someone made a sneering remark about "do-gooders"--Heaven help us if one day there are no more "do-gooders." I'd much rather be known as a "do-gooder" than as someone who has abandoned their principles and morals in such a cynical way.

7 posted on 04/02/2005 1:52:40 PM PST by MizSterious (First, the journalists, THEN the lawyers.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
"Libertarians are mostly nauseated by Christian conservatives getting all worked up about social issues."


"Mr. Danforth, and others, have it backward. Christians are not trying to take over the system and convert it to some sort of a theocracy. We are not the aggressors. We are merely reacting to the systematic destruction of our culture and the undermining of the Judeo-Christian values that undergird it."

Good piece.
8 posted on 04/02/2005 1:55:29 PM PST by Texas_Jarhead (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1366853/)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

There sure are a lot of Christophobes, I agree. Terrified that someone will tell them they themselves aren't God.


9 posted on 04/02/2005 1:55:47 PM PST by ViLaLuz
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show bt Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it all started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said, .... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love (they didn't get that right either) your neighbor as yourself. ... you better not read the Bible in school And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

We ask ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?


10 posted on 04/02/2005 1:56:02 PM PST by Iam1ru1-2
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Well then, dog-gone-it, why did them loony-toon founding fathers write that stuff like the 'right to life' and surround it all with comments about Divine Providence?


11 posted on 04/02/2005 2:01:09 PM PST by Slyfox
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To: Tailgunner Joe

The above reality is exactly why any campaign to obtain JUSTICE for Terri Schindler, should include conservatives across the spectrum, and others who supported Terri's Right to Life!


12 posted on 04/02/2005 2:01:34 PM PST by TAdams8591 (Evil succeeds when good men don't do enough!!!!!!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

I'll never forget all of the FReepers here defending this RINO garbage man when it was thought he might be nominated as Attorney General in 01. Fair Waco Investigation indeed. Go back to scooping up Clinton and Reno's messes, Danforth.


13 posted on 04/02/2005 2:05:09 PM PST by streetpreacher (The fires of hell burn hot and try to destroy me, I run to your will Oh God I know you’ll restore me)
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To: Slyfox

Those founders were gun-toting religious extremists.


14 posted on 04/02/2005 2:16:29 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
The problem with libertarians and RINOs siding with the Left in agreeing the culture doesn't matter is that the Left wants to transform the culture to strengthen the state and diminish the individual. People like John Danforth don't see that abortion, gay marriage, and euthanasia are only the visible parts of the Left's attempts to redefine the culture so eventually central planners can tell us when when we can have children, who we can marry, and when we can die. Eventually, all of our freedoms get extinguished. It all begins with the attack on religious values - destroy those and the vacuum has to be filled by government. And that is exactly the aim of the Left. Too bad libertarians and RINOs don't see that's where we're headed if we don't turn the culture around.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
15 posted on 04/02/2005 2:23:06 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
From the phobia against Christians, you'd think America is suffering from too much Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth.

ANY Christianity is too much of it for the wicked.

16 posted on 04/02/2005 2:25:25 PM PST by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: Tailgunner Joe

People whose values were derived from their religious beliefs have just as much a right to exercise their political rights as do those who formed their values from classes in school, secularism, their parents, the Green party, rock music, movies, etc. It is not legitimate to say that anyone who goes to a church or synagogue has no ability to think and should be denied rights every other citizen has.

Further, some matters are obviously right or wrong even without referring to a religious dogma. Although I am a Christian, I don't look at the Terri Schiavo case as a particularly religious issue. I think of it as a judicial problem. The judicial system allowed a man of questionable intent to decide whether a disabled woman would be given food. I think that Judge Greer made a woefully bad decision. Where there is doubt as to her desires and her ability to function, the default should have been to let her live, not to kill her. The rest of the judges followed along and went by the letter of the law rather than the spirit. You don't have to be "religious" to find fault in their decision.


17 posted on 04/02/2005 2:27:43 PM PST by KittyKares
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To: k2blader

This is about MURDER Mr.Dansforth, and this is about corruption in the judiciary, and one does not even have to be christian to be against violation of human rights by the courts. Even dogs and cats and death row inmates do not get that inhumane treatment in the USA. You need to wake up. It is time to smell the coffee.


18 posted on 04/02/2005 2:29:05 PM PST by tessalu
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To: Tailgunner Joe

I do not see what is happening in America as simply a political conflict but a much more basic fight for survival of humanity.
The "sanctity of life" side versus the "culture of death".
The LIFE side believes in God, the DEATH side believes in man.
LIFE wants to protect the family, the child and the old. DEATH wants to glorify the individual's selfish desires for gratification (homosexual agenda, abortion on demand, craddle to grave nanny state).
DEATH has a narcistic desire for freedom from individual responsability by worshipping the "Government god" and rejecting traditional values.
LIFE wants to cherish the family, encourage honor, dignity and dedication. The DEATH side wants a world without moral judgement and therefore hates all who display honorable traits (including soldiers).

The two parties are evolving into these two camps. There still will be a lot of movement between the two such as the Reagan Democrats or the Rhino phenomena but as each year passes each will end up more and more as representing a LIFE party and the other will be the DEATH party.
Is Danforth afraid that he could be found wanting on his support for the LIFE side? Is he afraid that the lines between LIFE and DEATH are no longer so blurred so he must take a stand? It's becoming harder to be a Rhino, Dan.


19 posted on 04/02/2005 2:32:12 PM PST by UltraKonservativen (( YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID ))
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: Tailgunner Joe; All
In Honor of Terri Schiavo

Please let it load -- it's 11 mb.

Have headphones or sound on.

special thanks to lafroste for generous technical and web assistance.

21 posted on 04/02/2005 2:49:09 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (God rest Terri Schiavo. God save the rest of us.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Thank you for this post, Joe....
I have been looking for the right verbiage for it but we needed a writer to establish one. I am deeply appreciative of the word "Christophobic".
I really think that the real definition is anti-Christ because that is where the "rub" comes but this will do for now.
In the interest of being upright and upfront, however, I will continue to use anti-Christ where it is blatant because that is the source of the itch and the twitch.


22 posted on 04/02/2005 2:50:08 PM PST by Spirited (God, Bless America)
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To: tessalu
When Danforth was Missouri A.G. some decades ago he lived a few blocks away from a friend's home. While there was a city leash law in effect for dogs, Danforth's bird dog was often seen roaming around the neighborhood. Those could have been accidents but I've always wondered.

More recently was Danforth's apparent uncritical rubber stamp on the investigation results from his review of the Waco/Davidian disaster.

One has to wonder how politics might have been effected if Jerry Litton had not been killed in a campaign trip airplane crash. Most likely if he would have lived he would have become the Mo. senator, not Danforth.

At least Rev. Danforth did a good job for Reagan's memorial service.
23 posted on 04/02/2005 2:59:51 PM PST by Rex_Ruthless
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To: Tailgunner Joe
As an aside, "in my book" now has to be the number one phrase for all news/talk shows. I'm getting so sick of hearing "and in my book...", "if you'd read my book..."
24 posted on 04/02/2005 3:11:47 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

I didn't see the fight over saving Terris life as a religious one, I saw it as plain old common decency. And I do think globalism has the potential to cause a massive nuclear war if we are not careful and not rush into it like we are doing.


25 posted on 04/02/2005 3:16:31 PM PST by John Lenin
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Basically Christians are being demonized for defending the traditional mother/father unit that is one of the pillars of a healthy society, defending the Liberty and Life of every human being whether in womb, aged or handicapped, warning that excesses of any vice can be destructive, while pledging allegiance to a nation also recognizing that a man devised government is no without its flaws etc..

Really. Is it so hard to understand why people fear Christians? Even if you take the spiritual side out, Christians certainly are "inconvenient" to certain counter social and governmental agendas.

I'm not of a mood to be quiet in face of this bigotry, or persecution if one would rather? However my combative stance doesn't arise from shock or fear. I knew what I committed to when I became a Christian. So far...we haven't yet been put to death in this country for professing Christ. Others across the world cannot state the same. In this we are blessed.


26 posted on 04/02/2005 4:55:08 PM PST by Soul Seeker
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To: Spirited
Years ago I started using the term 'cristophobic' with liberals, mocking their term 'homophobic.' Whenever I was called "homophobe", I called back "cristophobe," afraid of God's authority.

The left get so spun up over that term that I've continued to use it. Protests included, "That's not really a word!" (but it's OK for them to make up terms? LOL--hypocrites!)

I like the newest "Christophobic" version even better. I even remember the pope (R.I.P.) saying "Christianophobia" a few months ago.

27 posted on 04/02/2005 5:34:58 PM PST by ViLaLuz
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To: Soul Seeker
"Really. Is it so hard to understand why people fear Christians? Even if you take the spiritual side out, Christians certainly are "inconvenient" to certain counter social and governmental agendas."

Very true. In addition, a big factor is that Christians rely on Peace through Jesus, rather than secular "peace," a false security based on appeasement.

Christians aren't part of that false unity , but united with one another as the Body of Christ.

28 posted on 04/02/2005 5:41:56 PM PST by ViLaLuz
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To: ViLaLuz

Terri Schiavo Internet Memorial

Visit http://rememberedbyus.com/TerriSchiavo/
to light a candle and leave a personal message.

Thank you!

29 posted on 04/02/2005 5:45:53 PM PST by MikeReedKS (Create a FREE Internet Memorial Today at http://RememberedByUs.com)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

A rather Christophobic tone to his argument, coming from an Episcopalian minister..


30 posted on 04/02/2005 6:37:54 PM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: KittyKares

There are basic moral issues that the Christian conservatives are more vocal about. However these moral values are not the sole provence on Christians. The value of life is enshrined in Christian theology, However it also valued among other religions, such as Judaism and Buddhist and Hindu. I am not an expert on religion. Even atheists or secularists can agree on the value of life. Some put more emphasis on the quality of life. Christins are not the only ones that think gay marriage and abortion are wrong.
I don't think that the Republican Party is hostage to the Christian right. It is only that there are shared basic values.

Values are incorporated in law and religion. Early law was done through religion. Islamic Sharia law is an example of this. I don't sgree with Sharia law but can understand that it has greater force if posited through religious dogma.

Without basic shared moral values civilizations can not exist. Thou shall not kill, steal, defame etc. are necessary for people to reside together. To fight to maintain those values is a fight for survival of our society. Since we are a Republic, when the people see that we are straying from these core values they are correct to agitate for change or to prevent perversion and degeneracy from becoming the norm.


31 posted on 04/02/2005 9:40:33 PM PST by Rhiannon
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To: ViLaLuz

You were way ahead of the rest of us.

I thought Christianophobia was a bit unwieldy but this is melodic. It is sorely needed even on FR, unfortunatley.


32 posted on 04/02/2005 9:48:07 PM PST by Spirited (God, Bless America)
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To: Rhiannon

Well said!


33 posted on 04/03/2005 9:03:39 AM PDT by KittyKares
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To: KittyKares

Thanks.
I dont ascribed to the notion that these values are only Christian. Most of all American have internalized the same basic values. Just that people have been deluded by their own desires not to continue to exist when kept alive by machines. Then these personal desires are projected onto a person who can not verbalize her own desire. Those who are fervent Christians value life period. Others want a better life.
My father had a stroke, lost his mobility and later his sight. He was a very active person. However his attiude was that his was thankful for his life , even if it was diminished. He never got depressed. This made an impact that even with physical losses that life was worth living.
He died when he choked on some barbecue meat and his heart failed.My brother said that he could not get to him in time to force the food out and he had congestive heart problem so his margin was less. However he died eating food which was one of his own pleasures. So I can console myself that he had a good death. He never wanted to die hooked up to machine. We did extreme measures on previous health problems but he was able to come back to some degree of enjoyment. He hated being in rehab homes. We later figured that he got more physical therapy by my brother taking him out every day to store and restaurants.


34 posted on 04/03/2005 6:18:19 PM PDT by Rhiannon
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To: Rhiannon

I am sorry your father passed away.

I admire your father's attitude that life is worth living even if in a deteriorating body.

I wonder sometimes if our society is so obsessed with perfection that it makes people feel worthless if they don’t meet that standard. As a result, Americans who are still whole in body cannot fathom existing in a disabled state.

I always remember how one radio talk show host (Dennis Prager) related how he was in India and met a man with no legs. His friends would cart him around with them in a wheelbarrow, and he was never made to feel like he didn’t belong. He was just plain Mishra (or whomever) who happened to have no legs. I thought that was lovely. I wish we were more like that.


35 posted on 04/03/2005 6:36:44 PM PDT by KittyKares
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Today, former Missouri Senator and friend of the family, John Danforth,

David, Rush,

Get better friends.

36 posted on 04/03/2005 6:39:49 PM PDT by don-o (Stop Freeploading. Do the right thing and become a Monthly Donor.)
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To: Rhiannon

Interesting comments.


37 posted on 05/05/2005 6:02:29 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
Thanks,

It is just those of us who are healthy can't imagine life can be good if we lose mobility or get disabled. However that perspective changes when a person is in that condition. As a species we are designed to survive. That instinct is very strong. I can understand the disabled feeling that the Schiavo case can have fatal consequences for them. Especially by all those people that thought it was better for Terri to die.
38 posted on 05/09/2005 9:10:10 PM PDT by Rhiannon
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To: Rhiannon

Aside from the important value we should place on any life, I simply could not trust Mr. Schiavo to be honest regarding his wife, and no matter what she had said to him during a flippant conversation, without a will. I think we should have relied on her parents to make the final decision.


39 posted on 05/10/2005 9:35:05 PM PDT by risk
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