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Fixing immigration fairly
The Boston Globe ^ | April 12, 2005 | Ali Noorani

Posted on 04/12/2005 4:05:42 AM PDT by Boston Blackie

Invoking symbols ranging from the Revolutionary War to Martin Luther King Jr., armed vigilantes are patrolling a segment of the Arizona-Mexico border and taking the enforcement of immigration law into their own hands. While they claim only to offer support to the Border Patrol, the Mexican government is on edge, human rights activists have flooded the area, and President Bush has distanced himself from the effort.

(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial
KEYWORDS: aliens
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To: WRhine
Most of the posters willfully bailing are Open Border advocates whom are decidedly on the left in the republican party ... this forum has seen a flood of "Party over Country" types that have taken FR way to the left.

BUMP

151 posted on 04/12/2005 1:03:32 PM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: spodefly
Do you really attach credibility to Alexus?

According to the goofballs at Liberty Post, Alexes shows them to be out-doing FR?

Do you know about Alexes and cookies?

152 posted on 04/12/2005 1:05:57 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
You can spin til you are dizzy.

I not attempting to *spin* anything. (or the FReeper polls)

Given the option between mass deportations and enrolling the illegals, the vast majority will choose the guest worker program.

Perhaps you have a link to this "vast majority" you claim ???

It sure doesn't seem to be FReepers or our Lurkers........

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll?poll=79;results=1

Free Republic Opinion Poll: Which of the following is the best way to solve the illegal immigration problem?

Composite Opinion

Seal and militarize the borders 49.3% 2,882

Beef up and enforce existing law 35.3% 2,064

Some form of guest worker program 10.5% 614

Other 3.0% 174

Undecided/Pass 1.9% 113

100.0% 5,847

153 posted on 04/12/2005 1:08:20 PM PDT by txdoda ("Navy Brat")
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To: WRhine
Thats not to smart. Spend all that money to deport them, interupt the flow of the economy, and then let them right back in.

That's a bullet hole in the foot.

154 posted on 04/12/2005 1:09:27 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: txdoda

The poll on guest worker programs has just as much credibility.


155 posted on 04/12/2005 1:12:56 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
Does your poll mean that the other poll doesn't exist.

It's not my poll, it is an FR poll, and no, both polls exist. One is more clearly delineated than the other, but both show that FR is not in favor of allowing illegal immigrants to stay in this country, guest worker program or no guest worker program.

...the composite poll that allows individuals to vote more than once.

Wrong. Members can vote once, and their vote is registered with their log-in. Non-members can vote once as they are cookied during voting. In that regard the poll is as accurate as any web poll.

Even your poll indicates that there is no overwhelming majority at FR advocating sealing the border.

That is exactly right ... and yet you and your small band of thread disruptors use that "militarize the borders/machinegun the migrants" strawman on just about every thread. Same with the assertion that anyone against illegal immigration is going to vote for Hillary ... no one has said it, but it is a convenient strawman and baiting tool for several posters you are intimately familiar with.

Ignore the percentages, these are not big numbers.

Given the skill you have shown on this thread in reading polls and graphs, I'll be ignoring more than the percentages.

156 posted on 04/12/2005 1:16:27 PM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: WRhine

Precisely my point. The immigration crowd has no interest in any other issue. They could care less about judges.


157 posted on 04/12/2005 1:16:47 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin

I referenced the poll among freepers, you are using the composite poll that allows individuals to vote more than once. >>>>>>>


LOL......OK, here is the *secure* results from the members only.

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll?poll=79;results=1

Seal and militarize the borders 45.9% 1,803

Beef up and enforce existing law 37.8% 1,484

****Some form of guest worker program 10.8% 423****

Other 3.3% 131

Undecided/Pass 2.2% 88

100.0% 3,929


158 posted on 04/12/2005 1:19:33 PM PDT by txdoda ("Navy Brat")
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To: spodefly
Let me clarify myself when I said these are not big numbers. The number of people participating in these polls are pretty small. These are not significant numbers. There are more people that live on my county road.

This is not a scientific poll. It has no basis in society.

You feed on your feedback.

159 posted on 04/12/2005 1:24:23 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
I am a CTO for a web-based software company, so I know a little about it. I am not very familiar with the "goofballs at Liberty Post", however.

There are several ways to measure a web sites traffic.

Page views is one that people have used that is notoriously meaningless.

For example, FR used to limit the number of posts viewable on any particular thread to 20. Now it is a selectable preference, and a viewer can have as many as 100 posts viewable on a given thread. That means that the 'page views' for a given thread are potentially one-fifth of what they used to be ... essentially a meaningless statistic that give no indication as to numbers of viewers.

Hits is another meaningless statistic. I could build a web page with a million little tiny graphics on it, and one person could view that page and I would get a million "hits". Meaningless.

The 'Reach' category on the other hand, shows the number of individual computers accessing a site, and is the best indication available as to total viewership.

160 posted on 04/12/2005 1:25:38 PM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: Ben Ficklin
This is not a scientific poll. It has no basis in society. You feed on your feedback.

I don't feed on anything. You were the first one in this thread to bring up those polls. Sorry to have hoisted you on your own petard.

161 posted on 04/12/2005 1:28:41 PM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: txdoda

That is a 7.4 % difference. Non-members make a difference.


162 posted on 04/12/2005 1:28:52 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
It is the illegals who get exploited.

If you read my post, you will find that is what I stated.
163 posted on 04/12/2005 1:28:59 PM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: HiJinx; joesnuffy; R. Scott; Marine Inspector

164 posted on 04/12/2005 1:29:31 PM PDT by risk
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To: freedumb2003

Sounds good to me, but I doubt it will happen anytime soon. The employers who depend on cheap illegal labor are also campaign contributors.


165 posted on 04/12/2005 1:31:05 PM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: spodefly
These polls are based on FR and have no basis in society.

The fact remains: most support a guest worker program. This country has been using them for over 50 years.

166 posted on 04/12/2005 1:31:40 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
Jeeze Ben, firsts you quote the poll as an indicator of trend:

A recent poll of FR members show support of guest worker plans at over 2 to 1. 60% for and 28% opposed.

Then you go on to say:

This is not a scientific poll. It has no basis in society.

What is it ?

From your #166: The fact remains: most support a guest worker program.

Who are "most" and do you have a link that supports that fact ?

167 posted on 04/12/2005 1:40:12 PM PDT by in the Arena (Life may begin at 30, but it doesn't get real interesting until about 110.)
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To: R. Scott
OK, I reread you 131.

I have never supported illegal immigration. I have stated uncountable times that i support guest workers.

You and all the others are compelled to to try to paint anyone who disagrees with on mass deportation as OBL,aclu,MECha, etc, etc, etc.

168 posted on 04/12/2005 1:43:51 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: in the Arena

It is poll 177 and has been linked above.


169 posted on 04/12/2005 1:45:29 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
These polls are based on FR and have no basis in society. The fact remains: most support a guest worker program. This country has been using them for over 50 years.

We'll see. I know that many people outside of the border states and heavily agricultural states are not fully aware of the extent of the illegal alien situation, nor the multi-billion dollar illegal industries of people smuggling, document forgery and identity theft that are built on top of the illegal alien industry, nor how those industries are tailor made for terrorists wishing to get into the country.

But that is changing, thanks to the attention the MMP, Lou Dobbs, Bill O' Reilly, FAIR, AILPAC, Michelle Malkin, and many many others are bringing to the issue.

I suspect that many people will support a guest worker program, as I do, that does not in any way reward illegals for their sneaking into this country illegally and enabling the other illegal industries (people smuggling, document forgery, etc.). Another Bracero type program may be just what the doctor ordered, but it cannot be given to people in this country illegally. That is an amnesty, and amnesty for illegals is a guaranteed failure. You want to be a guest worker here? Apply for it from your home country. Period. Anything else, any amnesty at all, is a magnet for more illegality, as the amnesty of 1986 showed us.

170 posted on 04/12/2005 1:49:22 PM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: Ben Ficklin; All

"FR is a far right website and functions as an internet center of the anti immigrant crowd."

Anti ILLEGAL ILLEGAL say it 100 times illegal illegal
ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION Tell the truth Ben, I know you can one in a while. ILLEGAL immigration, Ben


c'mon Ben, If FR is so "right wing" why don't you leave, so we can increase FR's mean average IQ.


171 posted on 04/12/2005 1:51:03 PM PDT by international american (Tagline now fireproof....purchased from "Conspiracy Guy Custom Taglines"LLC)
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To: lemura
Keeping excercising your 1st ammendment rights; the smart money is already many, many moves ahead of you. But just for laughs, here's what's going down:

Fact: the Latinization of the US cannot be stopped
Fact: the US is already following the pattern of every
other two-tier society in Latin America
Fact: every society/culture throughout history has failed (
and it always comes from within) - the US is no different

Aside from your first point, I agree. You won't get an argument from me as to the nation-ending implications that Mexico's unchecked Invasion of America represents or how entrenched corruption has brought down all civilizations eventually.

Where I disagree is the notion that ending or at least seriously rolling back illegal immigration and exercising sovereignty over our borders is an impossible task.

While the Latinization of American may very well be an unstoppable force to some degree, ending the plight of illegal immigration is not. The fight against illegal immigration has finally begun in earnest and many variables are in play, including millions of Hispanics that don't like what is happening to our country either. We have many compadres here. This event is IMO too dynamic to predict...smart money aside.

But, if your position of one of resignation to the so-called inevitable so "sit back and enjoy it" and vote Republican no matter what the party does, you can leave me out.

Whether America survives this crisis or not, any republican that casts their lot in with the Open Border Lobby and Mexico will never see my vote and I have plenty of company. This whole issue has the potential of splitting the Republican Party in half and ending its majority control. That's a very possible “Reality” (since you are so into that) which You had better come to grips with.

Many of us are not going to go quietly into the night as our political leaders sell out America to the highest bidders. There is going to be plenty of negative consequences for both parties if nothing is done about illegal immigration as the future unfolds.

172 posted on 04/12/2005 1:59:28 PM PDT by WRhine (Is anything Treasonous these days?)
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To: Ben Ficklin
You understand, its difficult for me to keep up with 10-20 of you.

Let me slow down and clarify.

There is a FR poll that show 60% of freepers support a guest worker plan. At the same time, there are many indicators that the general population, including more moderate pubs, independants, and democrats, support a guest worker at even higher percentages.

There is another FR poll that indicates that 45% of freepers support militarizing the border. It is safe to say that this same 45% support mass deportations. Unlike the above poll on guest workers, the general public does not favor mass deportation or militarizing the border at anywhere near 45%.

Essentially 100% of Congress supports guest workers. Essentially 0% of Congress supports deportations and and militarizing the border.

173 posted on 04/12/2005 2:06:17 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Dane

DP


174 posted on 04/12/2005 2:06:18 PM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (MSM Fraudcasters are skid marks on journalism's clean shorts.)
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To: harrowup; B58Hustler
"...it makes more sense than anything else coming out of the Buchanalite wing of the Republican Party."   --harrowup

Harrowup in his own words...

"I have belonged to the ACLU for over 40 years..."   --harrowup

"I am also a Democrat..."   --harrowup

"I love beating up on Republicans and Libertarians and especially conservatives."   --harrowup

There is nothing you can say that will ever be more revealing than your admission that you have been a life-long member and apologist for the Anti-Amerian, communist-front group, the ACLU, and an unrepentant liberal member of the Democrat Party (the party of treason), and especially your confession to being a troll and disruptor.

--Boot Hill

175 posted on 04/12/2005 2:06:28 PM PDT by Boot Hill ("...and Josuha went unto him and said: art thou for us, or for our adversaries?")
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To: international american
Once again, you are trying to paint those who support a guest worker plan as obl, aclu, etc, etc.

If I left, who would torment you?

176 posted on 04/12/2005 2:09:39 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin

The only thing MMP is doing is shifting the illegal traffic elsewhere. In the process MMP is interupting cross- border commerce, creating hardship for many.
After MMP is gone, the illegal traffic will quikly return. The cross-border commerce will return much more slowly.


If you had any guts you would just admit you support a totally open border.


177 posted on 04/12/2005 2:16:31 PM PDT by mthom
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To: spodefly
You see, nobody is against repatriation and re-entering on a visa based on philosophical reasons. Its a matter of practicality.

It costs a lot of money. In the time required to do it, the economy will crash. You have to create a huge bureaucracy.

178 posted on 04/12/2005 2:18:46 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin

"Once again, you are trying to paint those who support a guest worker plan as obl, aclu, etc, etc."

I am not painting anything. I am tired of reading anti- immigration monikers for those who oppose ILLEGAL immigration. My wife is from China, and it cost me 2 years, and a bundle of money to get her here LEGALLY. And she holds a nursing degree fom an American University to boot.


179 posted on 04/12/2005 2:19:05 PM PDT by international american (Tagline now fireproof....purchased from "Conspiracy Guy Custom Taglines"LLC)
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To: mthom

Once again, your only argument is to try to paint those who disagree with you as obl, aclu, etc


180 posted on 04/12/2005 2:20:46 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: international american
You need to find yourself a political leader who represents you views and support him.

You need to identify the legislation that represents your views and support it.

181 posted on 04/12/2005 2:24:08 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
Thats not to smart. Spend all that money to deport them, interupt the flow of the economy, and then let them right back in.

Letting them back in is not my position.

In regards to "spending all that money", our government spends (wastes) hundreds of billions on much less noble ventures. The problem is priorities, like defending this nation from Invasion, not money. Even here, the most cost-effective way of reducing illegal immigration is enforcing the immigration laws already on the books and sanctioning employers that hire illegals. Take their jobs away, and many will deport themselves.

And I don't buy the OBL line that the economy will collapse without illegal aliens. How oh How did America ever become the most prosperous nation on earth without their help? I suspect the opposite will happen. Our economy is already laboring under the extreme burden illegal aliens have placed on American Taxpayers, state coffers and the public infrastructure of this country.

If there is any contraction at all it will be short-lived and followed by a robust expansion fueled by American Taxpayers having more money in their pockets to spend on real things. Not on sky high medical insurance premiums, ever higher property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes to fund the Billions in Social Costs that welfare mooching Illegals exact on this country.

182 posted on 04/12/2005 2:25:00 PM PDT by WRhine (Is anything Treasonous these days?)
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To: Ben Ficklin
Precisely my point.

You have no point other than keeping the RINOs that have more in common with the democratic party than conservatism in Power.

183 posted on 04/12/2005 2:28:21 PM PDT by WRhine (Is anything Treasonous these days?)
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To: Ben Ficklin

Harrowup- ACLU, CLintonbegone- will gladly admit he supports illegal immigration, Ben_Ficlklin- The only thing MMP is doing is shifting the illegal traffic elsewhere. In the process MMP is interupting cross- border commerce, creating hardship for many.
After MMP is gone, the illegal traffic will quikly return. The cross-border commerce will return much more slowly.
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck


184 posted on 04/12/2005 2:28:53 PM PDT by mthom
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To: mthom

Your right, MMP will accomplish nothing.


185 posted on 04/12/2005 2:31:28 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: lemura
RE: Boy, you guys just can't let go of this, can you?. . . .

Correct.

I am old enough to remember the time when Americans accepted that crime does not pay.

There was a time in American when we rejected welfare as a way of life, in this case the welfare is subsidized "cheap" labor for the few businessmen. Let them reimburse the taxpayers and start paying their way in the future then fine.

Costs will go up and taxpayers will continue to pay but at least we will have the option to do without what the businessmen sell. Being taxed to support their "cheap" labor gives us no choice.

Americans are not "losers" and we are not quitters.

We have inalienable rights including those who depend upon subsidized labor. A clash of inalienable rights. That usually means lots of trouble.

186 posted on 04/12/2005 2:31:44 PM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (MSM Fraudcasters are skid marks on journalism's clean shorts.)
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To: WRhine

How many votes did your presidential candidate get in 2000?


187 posted on 04/12/2005 2:32:41 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: WRhine

So you don't support a guest worker program?


188 posted on 04/12/2005 2:34:52 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Dane
I see the SOIL illegal alien thread detector went off.

The rest of your pack will show up soon, I take it.

189 posted on 04/12/2005 2:35:45 PM PDT by Czar (StillFedUptotheTeeth@Washington)
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To: R. Scott

When we break the law, we get busted ~ when foreign citizens break the law, they get deified by the lunatic left!


Be Ever vigilant!


190 posted on 04/12/2005 2:39:19 PM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: mthom; Ben Ficklin
If you had any guts you would just admit you support a totally open border.

Ben is not the kind of political animal where honesty rates very high. Much as a politician, he likes to cloak his Subversive Agenda in doublespeak, double talk, minutia, misdirection, anything that steers the reader away from his real positions.

191 posted on 04/12/2005 2:39:47 PM PDT by WRhine (Is anything Treasonous these days?)
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To: John Jorsett; Travis McGee; wardaddy; Spiff; Boot Hill; HiJinx; Dead Corpse
The first SOIL to show up was Dane. Now we have SOIL #2, Ben Ficklin.

They excel in flacking for illegal aliens and are desperate to convince everyone that the Bush guestworker program really doesn't contain the sham amnesty which it so obviously does.

Good post.

192 posted on 04/12/2005 2:41:14 PM PDT by Czar (StillFedUptotheTeeth@Washington)
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To: WRhine

Tell me that part about Mecha, aclu and commies again.


193 posted on 04/12/2005 2:45:00 PM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: harrowup
"...it makes more sense than anything else coming out of the Buchanalite wing of the Republican Party."

Or coming out of the ACLU wing of the Democrat party.

194 posted on 04/12/2005 2:48:27 PM PDT by Czar (StillFedUptotheTeeth@Washington)
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To: Ben Ficklin

"You need to find yourself a political leader who represents you views and support him."

Brother you got that right: )

"You need to identify the legislation that represents your views and support it."

Elton Gallegly (R) Thousand Oaks represents my views.


195 posted on 04/12/2005 2:49:54 PM PDT by international american (Tagline now fireproof....purchased from "Conspiracy Guy Custom Taglines"LLC)
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To: lemura
On this reply your message becomes a little cleared to me. {#138, I believe.)

I too have said that it's a done deal -- as far as the "ruling class" is concerned. That be the conservative "'free trade' transfer technology, wealth, and production to developing nations and migrant labor" crowd. Their partners in this are the DLC New Democrat Third Way progressives and the Davos folks.

But the issue is whose America survives? We cannot let down the sacrifices of citizens past. IMO.

I have stated my solution that does not include deportation or any shiny new laws for business and government to ignore.

196 posted on 04/12/2005 2:50:43 PM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (MSM Fraudcasters are skid marks on journalism's clean shorts.)
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To: Ben Ficklin
"FR is a far right website and functions as an internet center of the anti immigrant anti illegal immigrant crowd."   (error correction added)

Thank you for outing yourself and making it clear to all who read this thread, who has chosen to stand alongside the criminal aliens, Vincente Fox, Aztlan, La Raza, MEChA, MALDEF, ACLU, LULAC and the international terrorist gang MS-13, versus those who stand ready to defend American sovereignty and secure our borders from invasion.

--Boot Hill

197 posted on 04/12/2005 2:55:34 PM PDT by Boot Hill ("...and Josuha went unto him and said: art thou for us, or for our adversaries?")
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To: Ben Ficklin
It costs a lot of money. In the time required to do it, the economy will crash. You have to create a huge bureaucracy.

I doubt the economy would crash. I have enough faith in this country and its people to believe that if all illegal aliens disappeared tomorrow, we would get along just fine. In fact, I believe we would be better for it, because it would force us to comply with the laws, our security would improve, and our existing minorities that have been squeezed by the illegal influx would have job opportunities denied to them now.

But regarding the bureaucracy, that is the point where I have the most cynicism about any "guest worker" plan, even one where they have to apply from out of the country.

Regardless of how we solve the problem of illegal immigration, it will require a more substantial federal bureaucracy than currently exists, couple with a will to actually enforce the law.

In effect, the problem is so bad that the solution is bad too. The Federal Government grows and gains power based on its own failures. The failures to handle existing visa programs (H2.x, specifically) in accordance with known labor needs, coupled with the lack of enforcement against the hiring of illegals, has created a situation that is cancerous with regard to federal growth and costs.

198 posted on 04/12/2005 2:57:44 PM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: Ben Ficklin; Travis McGee; wardaddy; Spiff; Boot Hill; HiJinx; Marine Inspector
"You are the wacko fringe."

And you and the rest of your pack are the put-America-last fringe. You know, the ones who care little for American sovereignty and label as bigoted racists those loyal Americans who believe in protected borders and the preservation of American culture, language and customs.

There isn't a single conservative to be found in your grimy little pack. One of your leaders, harrowup, is an admitted ACLU democrat. As for you and the rest, I am guessing that, at best, you are GOP Big Tent RINOs/liberals/moderates. At best...

199 posted on 04/12/2005 2:59:15 PM PDT by Czar (StillFedUptotheTeeth@Washington)
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To: Ben Ficklin
More dishonesty from one of the FROBLs.

You quote a poorly worded poll which was quickly replaced with a better worded poll.

Here are the results from a more relevant poll:

Which of the following is the best way to solve the illegal immigration problem?

Seal and militarize the borders.....49.3% 2,882
Beef up and enforce existing law....35.3% 2,064
Some form of guest worker program...10.5% 615
Other................................3.0% 174
Undecided/Pass.......................1.9% 113

These poll results put to a lie your assertions that FR members support guest worker plans 2 to 1. In fact, these results demonstrate that FR members OPPOSE guest worker plans by an 8 to 1 margin.

If you are as selective with your "facts" gleened from FR polls as you are with your "facts" gleened from other sources, then you have utterly no crediblity here. Your agenda is exposed as is your blatant dishonesty.


200 posted on 04/12/2005 2:59:33 PM PDT by Spiff (Don't believe everything you think.)
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