Skip to comments.Fixing immigration fairly
Posted on 04/12/2005 4:05:42 AM PDT by Boston Blackie
Invoking symbols ranging from the Revolutionary War to Martin Luther King Jr., armed vigilantes are patrolling a segment of the Arizona-Mexico border and taking the enforcement of immigration law into their own hands. While they claim only to offer support to the Border Patrol, the Mexican government is on edge, human rights activists have flooded the area, and President Bush has distanced himself from the effort.
(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...
According to the goofballs at Liberty Post, Alexes shows them to be out-doing FR?
Do you know about Alexes and cookies?
I not attempting to *spin* anything. (or the FReeper polls)
Given the option between mass deportations and enrolling the illegals, the vast majority will choose the guest worker program.
Perhaps you have a link to this "vast majority" you claim ???
It sure doesn't seem to be FReepers or our Lurkers........
Free Republic Opinion Poll: Which of the following is the best way to solve the illegal immigration problem?
Seal and militarize the borders 49.3% 2,882
Beef up and enforce existing law 35.3% 2,064
Some form of guest worker program 10.5% 614
Other 3.0% 174
Undecided/Pass 1.9% 113
That's a bullet hole in the foot.
The poll on guest worker programs has just as much credibility.
It's not my poll, it is an FR poll, and no, both polls exist. One is more clearly delineated than the other, but both show that FR is not in favor of allowing illegal immigrants to stay in this country, guest worker program or no guest worker program.
...the composite poll that allows individuals to vote more than once.
Wrong. Members can vote once, and their vote is registered with their log-in. Non-members can vote once as they are cookied during voting. In that regard the poll is as accurate as any web poll.
Even your poll indicates that there is no overwhelming majority at FR advocating sealing the border.
That is exactly right ... and yet you and your small band of thread disruptors use that "militarize the borders/machinegun the migrants" strawman on just about every thread. Same with the assertion that anyone against illegal immigration is going to vote for Hillary ... no one has said it, but it is a convenient strawman and baiting tool for several posters you are intimately familiar with.
Ignore the percentages, these are not big numbers.
Given the skill you have shown on this thread in reading polls and graphs, I'll be ignoring more than the percentages.
Precisely my point. The immigration crowd has no interest in any other issue. They could care less about judges.
I referenced the poll among freepers, you are using the composite poll that allows individuals to vote more than once. >>>>>>>
LOL......OK, here is the *secure* results from the members only.
Seal and militarize the borders 45.9% 1,803
Beef up and enforce existing law 37.8% 1,484
****Some form of guest worker program 10.8% 423****
Other 3.3% 131
Undecided/Pass 2.2% 88
This is not a scientific poll. It has no basis in society.
You feed on your feedback.
There are several ways to measure a web sites traffic.
Page views is one that people have used that is notoriously meaningless.
For example, FR used to limit the number of posts viewable on any particular thread to 20. Now it is a selectable preference, and a viewer can have as many as 100 posts viewable on a given thread. That means that the 'page views' for a given thread are potentially one-fifth of what they used to be ... essentially a meaningless statistic that give no indication as to numbers of viewers.
Hits is another meaningless statistic. I could build a web page with a million little tiny graphics on it, and one person could view that page and I would get a million "hits". Meaningless.
The 'Reach' category on the other hand, shows the number of individual computers accessing a site, and is the best indication available as to total viewership.
I don't feed on anything. You were the first one in this thread to bring up those polls. Sorry to have hoisted you on your own petard.
That is a 7.4 % difference. Non-members make a difference.
It is the illegals who get exploited.
Sounds good to me, but I doubt it will happen anytime soon. The employers who depend on cheap illegal labor are also campaign contributors.
The fact remains: most support a guest worker program. This country has been using them for over 50 years.
A recent poll of FR members show support of guest worker plans at over 2 to 1. 60% for and 28% opposed.
Then you go on to say:
This is not a scientific poll. It has no basis in society.
What is it ?
From your #166: The fact remains: most support a guest worker program.
Who are "most" and do you have a link that supports that fact ?
I have never supported illegal immigration. I have stated uncountable times that i support guest workers.
You and all the others are compelled to to try to paint anyone who disagrees with on mass deportation as OBL,aclu,MECha, etc, etc, etc.
It is poll 177 and has been linked above.
We'll see. I know that many people outside of the border states and heavily agricultural states are not fully aware of the extent of the illegal alien situation, nor the multi-billion dollar illegal industries of people smuggling, document forgery and identity theft that are built on top of the illegal alien industry, nor how those industries are tailor made for terrorists wishing to get into the country.
But that is changing, thanks to the attention the MMP, Lou Dobbs, Bill O' Reilly, FAIR, AILPAC, Michelle Malkin, and many many others are bringing to the issue.
I suspect that many people will support a guest worker program, as I do, that does not in any way reward illegals for their sneaking into this country illegally and enabling the other illegal industries (people smuggling, document forgery, etc.). Another Bracero type program may be just what the doctor ordered, but it cannot be given to people in this country illegally. That is an amnesty, and amnesty for illegals is a guaranteed failure. You want to be a guest worker here? Apply for it from your home country. Period. Anything else, any amnesty at all, is a magnet for more illegality, as the amnesty of 1986 showed us.
"FR is a far right website and functions as an internet center of the anti immigrant crowd."
Anti ILLEGAL ILLEGAL say it 100 times illegal illegal
ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION Tell the truth Ben, I know you can one in a while. ILLEGAL immigration, Ben
c'mon Ben, If FR is so "right wing" why don't you leave, so we can increase FR's mean average IQ.
Fact: the Latinization of the US cannot be stopped
Fact: the US is already following the pattern of every
other two-tier society in Latin America
Fact: every society/culture throughout history has failed (
and it always comes from within) - the US is no different
Aside from your first point, I agree. You won't get an argument from me as to the nation-ending implications that Mexico's unchecked Invasion of America represents or how entrenched corruption has brought down all civilizations eventually.
Where I disagree is the notion that ending or at least seriously rolling back illegal immigration and exercising sovereignty over our borders is an impossible task.
While the Latinization of American may very well be an unstoppable force to some degree, ending the plight of illegal immigration is not. The fight against illegal immigration has finally begun in earnest and many variables are in play, including millions of Hispanics that don't like what is happening to our country either. We have many compadres here. This event is IMO too dynamic to predict...smart money aside.
But, if your position of one of resignation to the so-called inevitable so "sit back and enjoy it" and vote Republican no matter what the party does, you can leave me out.
Whether America survives this crisis or not, any republican that casts their lot in with the Open Border Lobby and Mexico will never see my vote and I have plenty of company. This whole issue has the potential of splitting the Republican Party in half and ending its majority control. That's a very possible Reality (since you are so into that) which You had better come to grips with.
Many of us are not going to go quietly into the night as our political leaders sell out America to the highest bidders. There is going to be plenty of negative consequences for both parties if nothing is done about illegal immigration as the future unfolds.
Let me slow down and clarify.
There is a FR poll that show 60% of freepers support a guest worker plan. At the same time, there are many indicators that the general population, including more moderate pubs, independants, and democrats, support a guest worker at even higher percentages.
There is another FR poll that indicates that 45% of freepers support militarizing the border. It is safe to say that this same 45% support mass deportations. Unlike the above poll on guest workers, the general public does not favor mass deportation or militarizing the border at anywhere near 45%.
Essentially 100% of Congress supports guest workers. Essentially 0% of Congress supports deportations and and militarizing the border.
"I have belonged to the ACLU for over 40 years..." --harrowup
"I am also a Democrat..." --harrowup
"I love beating up on Republicans and Libertarians and especially conservatives." --harrowup
There is nothing you can say that will ever be more revealing than your admission that you have been a life-long member and apologist for the Anti-Amerian, communist-front group, the ACLU, and an unrepentant liberal member of the Democrat Party (the party of treason), and especially your confession to being a troll and disruptor.
If I left, who would torment you?
The only thing MMP is doing is shifting the illegal traffic elsewhere. In the process MMP is interupting cross- border commerce, creating hardship for many.
After MMP is gone, the illegal traffic will quikly return. The cross-border commerce will return much more slowly.
If you had any guts you would just admit you support a totally open border.
It costs a lot of money. In the time required to do it, the economy will crash. You have to create a huge bureaucracy.
"Once again, you are trying to paint those who support a guest worker plan as obl, aclu, etc, etc."
I am not painting anything. I am tired of reading anti- immigration monikers for those who oppose ILLEGAL immigration. My wife is from China, and it cost me 2 years, and a bundle of money to get her here LEGALLY. And she holds a nursing degree fom an American University to boot.
Once again, your only argument is to try to paint those who disagree with you as obl, aclu, etc
You need to identify the legislation that represents your views and support it.
Letting them back in is not my position.
In regards to "spending all that money", our government spends (wastes) hundreds of billions on much less noble ventures. The problem is priorities, like defending this nation from Invasion, not money. Even here, the most cost-effective way of reducing illegal immigration is enforcing the immigration laws already on the books and sanctioning employers that hire illegals. Take their jobs away, and many will deport themselves.
And I don't buy the OBL line that the economy will collapse without illegal aliens. How oh How did America ever become the most prosperous nation on earth without their help? I suspect the opposite will happen. Our economy is already laboring under the extreme burden illegal aliens have placed on American Taxpayers, state coffers and the public infrastructure of this country.
If there is any contraction at all it will be short-lived and followed by a robust expansion fueled by American Taxpayers having more money in their pockets to spend on real things. Not on sky high medical insurance premiums, ever higher property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes to fund the Billions in Social Costs that welfare mooching Illegals exact on this country.
You have no point other than keeping the RINOs that have more in common with the democratic party than conservatism in Power.
Harrowup- ACLU, CLintonbegone- will gladly admit he supports illegal immigration, Ben_Ficlklin- The only thing MMP is doing is shifting the illegal traffic elsewhere. In the process MMP is interupting cross- border commerce, creating hardship for many.
After MMP is gone, the illegal traffic will quikly return. The cross-border commerce will return much more slowly.
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck
Your right, MMP will accomplish nothing.
I am old enough to remember the time when Americans accepted that crime does not pay.
There was a time in American when we rejected welfare as a way of life, in this case the welfare is subsidized "cheap" labor for the few businessmen. Let them reimburse the taxpayers and start paying their way in the future then fine.
Costs will go up and taxpayers will continue to pay but at least we will have the option to do without what the businessmen sell. Being taxed to support their "cheap" labor gives us no choice.
Americans are not "losers" and we are not quitters.
We have inalienable rights including those who depend upon subsidized labor. A clash of inalienable rights. That usually means lots of trouble.
How many votes did your presidential candidate get in 2000?
So you don't support a guest worker program?
The rest of your pack will show up soon, I take it.
When we break the law, we get busted ~ when foreign citizens break the law, they get deified by the lunatic left!
Be Ever vigilant!
Ben is not the kind of political animal where honesty rates very high. Much as a politician, he likes to cloak his Subversive Agenda in doublespeak, double talk, minutia, misdirection, anything that steers the reader away from his real positions.
They excel in flacking for illegal aliens and are desperate to convince everyone that the Bush guestworker program really doesn't contain the sham amnesty which it so obviously does.
Tell me that part about Mecha, aclu and commies again.
Or coming out of the ACLU wing of the Democrat party.
"You need to find yourself a political leader who represents you views and support him."
Brother you got that right: )
"You need to identify the legislation that represents your views and support it."
Elton Gallegly (R) Thousand Oaks represents my views.
I too have said that it's a done deal -- as far as the "ruling class" is concerned. That be the conservative "'free trade' transfer technology, wealth, and production to developing nations and migrant labor" crowd. Their partners in this are the DLC New Democrat Third Way progressives and the Davos folks.
But the issue is whose America survives? We cannot let down the sacrifices of citizens past. IMO.
I have stated my solution that does not include deportation or any shiny new laws for business and government to ignore.
Thank you for outing yourself and making it clear to all who read this thread, who has chosen to stand alongside the criminal aliens, Vincente Fox, Aztlan, La Raza, MEChA, MALDEF, ACLU, LULAC and the international terrorist gang MS-13, versus those who stand ready to defend American sovereignty and secure our borders from invasion.
I doubt the economy would crash. I have enough faith in this country and its people to believe that if all illegal aliens disappeared tomorrow, we would get along just fine. In fact, I believe we would be better for it, because it would force us to comply with the laws, our security would improve, and our existing minorities that have been squeezed by the illegal influx would have job opportunities denied to them now.
But regarding the bureaucracy, that is the point where I have the most cynicism about any "guest worker" plan, even one where they have to apply from out of the country.
Regardless of how we solve the problem of illegal immigration, it will require a more substantial federal bureaucracy than currently exists, couple with a will to actually enforce the law.
In effect, the problem is so bad that the solution is bad too. The Federal Government grows and gains power based on its own failures. The failures to handle existing visa programs (H2.x, specifically) in accordance with known labor needs, coupled with the lack of enforcement against the hiring of illegals, has created a situation that is cancerous with regard to federal growth and costs.
And you and the rest of your pack are the put-America-last fringe. You know, the ones who care little for American sovereignty and label as bigoted racists those loyal Americans who believe in protected borders and the preservation of American culture, language and customs.
There isn't a single conservative to be found in your grimy little pack. One of your leaders, harrowup, is an admitted ACLU democrat. As for you and the rest, I am guessing that, at best, you are GOP Big Tent RINOs/liberals/moderates. At best...
You quote a poorly worded poll which was quickly replaced with a better worded poll.
Here are the results from a more relevant poll:
Which of the following is the best way to solve the illegal immigration problem?
Seal and militarize the borders.....49.3% 2,882
Beef up and enforce existing law....35.3% 2,064
Some form of guest worker program...10.5% 615
These poll results put to a lie your assertions that FR members support guest worker plans 2 to 1. In fact, these results demonstrate that FR members OPPOSE guest worker plans by an 8 to 1 margin.
If you are as selective with your "facts" gleened from FR polls as you are with your "facts" gleened from other sources, then you have utterly no crediblity here. Your agenda is exposed as is your blatant dishonesty.