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Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism (Pope Bound for Hell).
Knoxville News-Sentinel Co. ^ | April 13, 2005 | JEANNINE F. HUNTER

Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker

Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005

NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.

"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."

The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."

The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.

"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."

It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.

"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.

He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."

Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."

Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.

"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.

James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.

"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."

Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.

"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.

Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "

He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.

Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.


TOPICS: Front Page News
KEYWORDS: agitator; apostacy; apostasy; apostate; apostolicsuccession; baptist; bigots; bornagainbigots; cary; catholic; catholicism; catholicpriest; dedmundjoaquin; fundamentalism; fundamentalist; gahenna; hades; hateonparade; hatingforchrist; hell; heresy; heretic; heretical; hypocrisy; hypocrites; idiotsonparade; kittychow; kkk; livinginthepast; magisterium; maryworship; newbie; nutcase; nutjob; papacy; pope; popery; popishheresies; priest; priesthood; purgatory; rc; romancatholic; romancatholicism; talibaptist; talibaptists; transubstantiation; trollrus; wacko; whackjob; whoburntanabaptists; zotbait
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I did a search for this but didn't find it.

I'm wondering (No flame wars, please? Just honest discussion)...

I've seen conversations where those who are "Born Again" (Pardon me if I'm not using the correct term), consider Catholics and other religious people "Bound for Hell" because they don't worship correctly.

How widespread are these beleifs? If at all??

1 posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: Dean Baker



That's distasteful seeing as it's after the pope's death.


2 posted on 04/14/2005 12:01:57 PM PDT by LauraleeBraswell ( We must stand behind TOM DELAY!)
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To: Dean Baker

Ive been told right here in the Forum that I'm going to hell because I don't attend church.


3 posted on 04/14/2005 12:03:03 PM PDT by cripplecreek (I'm apathetic but really don't care.)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

Agreed. But it looks like that they could only make their point "After" his death?


4 posted on 04/14/2005 12:03:17 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: Dean Baker

My father-in-law is a pastor. I never heard him say such a thing. But, his impetus is teaching faith based upon the word of God.


5 posted on 04/14/2005 12:03:28 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (" It is not true that life is one damn thing after another-it's one damn thing over and over." ESV)
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To: Dean Baker
" He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign."

Your nose is growing.

As one with no dog in this fight, I have to laugh at this. He's either a liar or an idiot if he didn't look at those sentiments and think "Catholics will be offended." That he went ahead and let the sign stand, anyway, shows his intentions quite plainly.

6 posted on 04/14/2005 12:03:36 PM PDT by Darkwolf (Yankee Agnostic Free-Speech Advocate)
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To: Dean Baker
"We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father."

I refer to my dad as my father. Guess I'm hell-bound. Wheee!

7 posted on 04/14/2005 12:04:01 PM PDT by general_re ("Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith, but in doubt." - Reinhold Niebuhr)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

Not only distateful, but Biblically incorrect.

Surely they know (as well as anyone) that this Pope accepted Christ as his Lord and savior.

Rather silly.


8 posted on 04/14/2005 12:04:01 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan
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To: Dean Baker



The pope is a religiouse leader and example for all Christians. You don't have to be Catholic to admire him and his faith.


9 posted on 04/14/2005 12:04:25 PM PDT by LauraleeBraswell ( We must stand behind TOM DELAY!)
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To: Dean Baker

"My Jesus is better than your Jesus!"

Honestly, with some people, no one is better than they are.


10 posted on 04/14/2005 12:04:30 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Oh Lord help me this day to keep my big mouth shut)
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To: Dean Baker
When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "

Taken to its logical conclusion, wouldn't this prevent a person from calling his own father "father"?
11 posted on 04/14/2005 12:04:42 PM PDT by babyface00
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To: Dean Baker

Just peruse the Religion Forum "debates."

Don't you know? Everybody that doesn't think the exact same way you do is going to spend eternity wearing brimstone britches.


12 posted on 04/14/2005 12:05:06 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (I'm an "outraged moralist" and I have no good argument. I'm headed to Marie Callender's.)
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To: Dean Baker
I've seen conversations where those who are "Born Again" (Pardon me if I'm not using the correct term), consider Catholics ...

Catholics consider themselves to be born again as well.

13 posted on 04/14/2005 12:05:12 PM PDT by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: Dean Baker

"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church.

Then you aren't needed, either, Pastor.

Write when you get work.


14 posted on 04/14/2005 12:05:17 PM PDT by Adder (Can we bring back stoning again? Please?)
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To: Dean Baker

I'm evangelical and this makes me sick.

I hope this isn't widespread, unfortunetly many protestants are ignorant about Catholicism.

While I have some theological differences, I don't assert who and who is not going to hell. I know how to get to heaven, through Jesus Christ, but other than saying that I'm not able to assert who have accepted Christ and who has not.

Calling the Pope hell-bound while millions mourn is not 'loving your neighbor as yourself' as Christ commanded.

It's disgusting.


15 posted on 04/14/2005 12:05:28 PM PDT by FreepinforTerri (Send Attorney George J. Felos Rebukes via Email. His email is proofg@aol.com)
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To: Dean Baker

Here's a link to a picture of the sign is someone who knows how to do it can post it...

http://wate.static.worldnow.com/images/3195806_BG1.jpg


16 posted on 04/14/2005 12:05:45 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: Dean Baker
Bump
To read later
17 posted on 04/14/2005 12:05:46 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: Dean Baker; Lil'freeper

Another example of bigoted so called "Christians".


18 posted on 04/14/2005 12:05:46 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." Pope JPII)
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To: NYer; Salvation; narses; sinkspur; CouncilofTrent

Oh you have just GOT to see this one.


19 posted on 04/14/2005 12:06:03 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Oh Lord help me this day to keep my big mouth shut)
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To: Dean Baker

As a Lutheran, I have objections with the Catholic Church's theology. That said, I wonder who died and made the Rev. Franklin God?


20 posted on 04/14/2005 12:06:24 PM PDT by WinOne4TheGipper (What're you looking at?)
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To: cripplecreek

Nowhere that I know of in the Bible does it say that one must attend a church. I'm Baptist and I believe what Christ said about whenever any two are together, there He is also.......


21 posted on 04/14/2005 12:06:48 PM PDT by Red Badger (Entrepreneurs find a need and fill it. Politicians create a need and fill it........)
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To: Dean Baker

These are the fundamental point of difference between Protestants and Catholics.

The priesthood of all believers. According to Protestant doctine, ministers of religion have no special power or authority that is not available to everyone else. Catholics maintain that priests are the heirs of the Apostles, and were indirectly appointed and authorized to perform special functions.

Justification by faith alone. Protestants maintain that belief is the sole criteria for salvation. While good behavior is a logic consequence of belief, it is not of any value. Catholics have a different position on free will that enables them to say that good works and holy living are spitirually valuable.

This is all old stuff, going back to Luther and Calvin.


22 posted on 04/14/2005 12:06:49 PM PDT by proxy_user
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To: Dean Baker

I'm not catholic and I can see why catholics would be offended because I find it offensive myself.


23 posted on 04/14/2005 12:07:36 PM PDT by cripplecreek (I'm apathetic but really don't care.)
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To: Adder

Ahhh!!!! Ya beat me to it! First thought that popped into my head was the same thing about the nutty reverend.

What a hypocrite!


24 posted on 04/14/2005 12:07:41 PM PDT by henkster (When democrats talk of "the rich," they are referring to anyone with a private sector job.)
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To: Dean Baker

I'm sure this guy is winning LOTS of converts. Truly, he has a dizzying intellect.

< /s>


25 posted on 04/14/2005 12:07:51 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (I'm an "outraged moralist" and I have no good argument. I'm headed to Marie Callender's.)
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To: gridlock

I'm Catholic (Haven't practiced since I was in 6th grade) and have never heard that?

I have always considered (Possibly ignorantly), those who are "Born Again" to be Protistants only. Even specific Protistants.

??


26 posted on 04/14/2005 12:08:11 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: LauraleeBraswell

> That's distasteful seeing as it's after the pope's death.

Would it be distasteful *before* the Pope's death?


27 posted on 04/14/2005 12:08:32 PM PDT by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: Choose Ye This Day

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect!

WAIT TILL I GET GOING!!!!!!!!!!


28 posted on 04/14/2005 12:08:59 PM PDT by FreepinforTerri (Send Attorney George J. Felos Rebukes via Email. His email is proofg@aol.com)
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To: FreepinforTerri

I agree. I'm a Baptist and I and ashamed of these HOLIER-THAN-THOU types, as this preacher seems to be........


29 posted on 04/14/2005 12:09:01 PM PDT by Red Badger (Entrepreneurs find a need and fill it. Politicians create a need and fill it........)
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To: MeanWestTexan
Well said. I once was told that I was going to hell because I was given a copy of an NIV bible and it wasn't the King James version. I explained that my grandmother had given it to me many years ago but it made no difference. Scary stuff.
30 posted on 04/14/2005 12:09:12 PM PDT by Shortwave (Islamic democracies are not places for a vacation. They may be anti-American. But so is France..)
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To: Dean Baker

Obviously, Mr. Franklin and his followers are not the crispest crackers in the box.


31 posted on 04/14/2005 12:09:22 PM PDT by Chi-townChief
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To: Dean Baker


Now the only question is who's going to photoshop it...
32 posted on 04/14/2005 12:09:39 PM PDT by WinOne4TheGipper (What're you looking at?)
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To: Dean Baker
We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."

Exactly...so you won't mind if nobody shows up to see YOU pray or hear YOU'RE interpretation of the Bible, huh? Hypocrit.

33 posted on 04/14/2005 12:09:39 PM PDT by Lekker 1 ("There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be attainable"- Albert Einstein)
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To: cripplecreek

I'm Baptist and I'm offended by this.......


34 posted on 04/14/2005 12:09:58 PM PDT by Red Badger (Entrepreneurs find a need and fill it. Politicians create a need and fill it........)
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To: Dean Baker

35 posted on 04/14/2005 12:10:11 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (I'm an "outraged moralist" and I have no good argument. I'm headed to Marie Callender's.)
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To: Dean Baker

Jesus said all must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.


36 posted on 04/14/2005 12:10:37 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (" It is not true that life is one damn thing after another-it's one damn thing over and over." ESV)
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To: proxy_user

These are the fundamental point of difference between Protestants and Catholics.

The priesthood of all believers. According to Protestant doctine, ministers of religion have no special power or authority that is not available to everyone else. Catholics maintain that priests are the heirs of the Apostles, and were indirectly appointed and authorized to perform special functions.

Justification by faith alone. Protestants maintain that belief is the sole criteria for salvation. While good behavior is a logic consequence of belief, it is not of any value. Catholics have a different position on free will that enables them to say that good works and holy living are spitirually valuable.

This is all old stuff, going back to Luther and Calvin.






Interesting!

In all this time, and through all the arguments I've seen online (Before I got online, I didn't even know Catholics and Protistants had a problem with each other), I've never seen a reason as to why they argue. Let alone such a concise one.

Thanks! (Who's Luther and Calvin?)


37 posted on 04/14/2005 12:10:43 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: Chi-townChief

Or the brightest bulbs on the CHRISTMAS TREE.......


38 posted on 04/14/2005 12:11:05 PM PDT by Red Badger (Entrepreneurs find a need and fill it. Politicians create a need and fill it........)
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To: Dean Baker
"there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ"

It has nothing to do with what church you worship at. Going to a church doesn't make you a Christian any more than being in a garage makes you a car.

It is only about accepting God's FREE gift. If you don't want His free gift, you will someday get exactly what you desired - eternity without God, which is hell.

39 posted on 04/14/2005 12:11:32 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Dean Baker

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thout the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

-- Matt 7:1-3


40 posted on 04/14/2005 12:12:02 PM PDT by advance_copy (Stand for life, or nothing at all)
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To: Dean Baker

I've seen conversations where those who are "Born Again" (Pardon me if I'm not using the correct term), consider Catholics and other religious people "Bound for Hell" because they don't worship correctly.

How widespread are these beleifs? If at all??

Small-o orthodox, reformed Protestantism teaches that we are saved, if we put our faith in Jesus, by faith alone. Roman Catholic doctrine, despite some attempts to obfuscate the issue in recent years, believe in faith + all sorts of other things, most notably, baptism. And good works (yes, enabled by grace).

It's nothing to do with worshiping correctly, in fact. And you can of course still be in the Roman Catholic church and still be saved. But Roman Catholic dogma, properly understood, as taught in the Catechism, explained by soon-to-be-pope Ratzinger's seminal work, will lead you to a false understanding of salvation, which, assuming we are destined to hell if left unsaved, leads you to hell, according to reformed Protestant doctrine, to which I happen to adhere.

41 posted on 04/14/2005 12:12:05 PM PDT by jbloedow
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To: cripplecreek
Ive been told right here in the Forum that I'm going to hell because I don't attend church.

There is only one being who will decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell and that is God.

Case Closed!

Whoever had the audacity to say such a thing to you is completely nuts - and you can tell them that Expatguy said so.

42 posted on 04/14/2005 12:12:14 PM PDT by expatguy (http://laotze.blogspot.com/)
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To: Dean Baker

Outside of the Northeast, you can find people who believe that Catholics are not true Christians everywhere. The KKK was anti-Catholic, as well as anti-Jew and anti-Black. Many of the born again types I ran into in Los Angeles, including a Korean presbyterian, had this belief about Catholics.

As with other forms of prejudice, many believe it without being motivated to act on their beliefs in any way, whereas a few take it to extremes.


43 posted on 04/14/2005 12:12:20 PM PDT by Flash Bazbeaux ("I'll have the moo goo gai pan without the pan, and some pans.")
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To: Dean Baker

You know, Luther and Calvin, The cartoon's peeing on Chevy bowties on FORD truck rear windows............


44 posted on 04/14/2005 12:12:21 PM PDT by Red Badger (Entrepreneurs find a need and fill it. Politicians create a need and fill it........)
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To: WinOne4TheGipper

Another one...

http://wate.static.worldnow.com/images/3210286_BG1.jpg


Not photoshoped...But it looks as if it doesn't need to be.


45 posted on 04/14/2005 12:12:31 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: Dean Baker
You're not likely to be flamed for asking the question, but folks who try to give you a Biblical answer are likely to.

I equally disagree with anyone who, contrary either to the Bible or Roman Catholic dogma, announces it as a certainty that the Pope is in Heaven, and with those who announce it as a certainty that he is not.

As a Biblical Christian, there are only three, maybe four individuals who I know for a Biblical fact will be in Hell: the rich man of Luke 16, Judas, the Beast (aka Antichrist), and the False Prophet.

Otherwise, anyone who is not born again, who does not trust Jesus Christ alone for salvation by the grace of God alone through faith alone, will not see Heaven (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Romans 4; Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.).

For my further thoughts, if you care to, see Biblical Christianity BLOG.

At this point, only God knows which category the Pope is in.

Dan

46 posted on 04/14/2005 12:12:33 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Dean Baker
I'm sure passing Catholics will stop, do a spit-take, slap themselves upside the head and say, "Gosh, it's so true! Nobody ever explained it in quite that way before!"


47 posted on 04/14/2005 12:12:51 PM PDT by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: cripplecreek

I can see why it would be offensive and think it was a pretty stupid thing for them to say. The idea of a hell-bound Pope is not historically that unrealistic though. However, there is more evidence that this one truly trusted Christ than some of the more "politically appointed" ones of the past. Again, quite a stupid statement, and just a bit arrogant.

As a side note, Carson-Newman is a more liberal Baptist School. I would have preferred to hear from my more biblically minded Baptist brethren as to the reason's for the Pope's salvation than from someone who is an inclusivist or worse.


48 posted on 04/14/2005 12:13:14 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: Red Badger

LOL. That's the only Calvin I know.

Well, him and some dorky kid I knew in grade school.


49 posted on 04/14/2005 12:14:23 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: expatguy

The way I see it.


People who presume to tell me what God will do to me aren't showing much concern for their own soul.


50 posted on 04/14/2005 12:14:56 PM PDT by cripplecreek (I'm apathetic but really don't care.)
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