Skip to comments.Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism (Pope Bound for Hell).
Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker
Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, email@example.com April 13, 2005
NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.
"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."
The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."
The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.
"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."
It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.
"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.
He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."
Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."
Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.
"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.
James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.
"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."
Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.
"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.
Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "
He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.
Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.
Interestingly enough, the Bible never tells us that we must "accept" Christ as our "personal savior". That is Evangelical mumbo-jumbo that arises out of American revivalism. But, don't bother me with the facts.
Ha! I knew you were a freeper Reverend!
Irrelevant. If people believe in Michael Moore's tripe 2000 years from now, we can talk.
Thanks for the kind response, I am not a troll, just a God fearing man that wants to see others saved. I have been a freeper for years. Just recently been active again, and it feels good to be a part of the action again. This country needs the truth.
excerpted (see end)....
Roman Catholicism recognizes Allah as the God of the Bible. In 1985, Pope John Paul II declared to an enraptured audience of thousands of Muslim youths, "Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common as believers and as human beings....We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God...."
But how is that possible?
Historically, Allah was a pagan idol, supreme among many idols worshiped by Muhammad's Quraish tribe long before he was born. Will Durant in his classic, The Story of Civilization, writes,
Within the Ka'aba, in pre-Moslem days, were several idols representing gods. One was called Allah; three others were Allah's daughters, al-Uzza, al-Lat, and al-Manat. We may judge the antiquity of this Arab pantheon from the mention of Al-il-Lat (Al-Lat) by Herodotus [fifth century b.c. Greek historian] as a major Arabian deity. The Quraish paved the way for monotheism by worshiping Allah as chief god....
.... comparisons between Jehovah and Allah demonstrate clearly that they cannot be one and the same. Jehovah has a Son: "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (1 Jn 4:14). Allah has no son: "And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty..." (Sura 17:111); "Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any God along with him" (Sura 23:91). Whereas God the Father declared from heaven concerning Jesus, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Mt 3:17), Allah of the Qur'an condemns such a belief: "...the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!" (Sura 9:30 - The Holy Qur'an www.orst.edu/groups/msa/index.html).
Consider carefully the above quote (taken from what the Roman Catholic Church claims is an infallible council) and you will realize what truly binds Catholicism and Islam together: They both have a Jesus who cannot save their souls. The Qur'an teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross: "And because of [the Jews] saying, We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messengerThey slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain" (Sura 4:157). Vatican II may give Muslims credit for "venerating" Jesus, but in fact, it's a bogus Jesus. Sadly, Catholicism also has a false Christ. It teaches that His death on the cross was not sufficient for our salvation. Not only must His sacrifice (which, according to the Scriptures, was offered only once to take away our sins completely [Heb 9:28]) be "re-presented" as a daily sacrifice for sins on altars around the world, but Catholics must expiate their own sins through sufferings here on earth and in purgatory.
Pope John Paul II addressed a Catholic community in Turkey with these words: "I wonder if it is now urgent, precisely today when Christians and Muslims have entered a new period of history, to recognize and develop the spiritual bonds that unite us." No! What is "urgent" is that Catholics and Muslims be set free from the spiritual bondage of attempting to qualify for heaven by their good deeds. Pray that their hearts would be open to receive the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23). TBC
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today; Catholicism is the largest religious body among those professing to be Christian. If the number of followers was a good measure for selecting a religion, then Islam and Catholicism would definitely be the way to go. However, the Bible has no such yardstick. Rather, Jesus said, "[W]ide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Mt 7:13,14).
True. I didn't know, until informed by a good Catholic on FR, that there is no salvation apart from the Roman church. They were able to cite official church doctrine to establish that point.
Yes. Interesting that the Reverand forgot about this scripture while judging people for calling someone other than God father.
It's an easy trap to fall into, quoting scripture AT people, because as sure as anything, while accusing someone else of not following Biblical teachings, there's a whole lot of Biblical teachings that the accuser can be found to have broken.
Yep, it's even against Taoism.
Not that I agree with the argument that infant baptisms aren't efficasious (sp?), but we renew our baptismal vows at every Catholic Baptism, and every Easter.
If you attended Mass, you studied the Bible...
For the sake of the previous discussion, here's a different take from the main story...
"During WWII, four Chaplains went down on the U.S.Troop Ship DORCHESTER when she was torpedoed that bitterly frigid pre-dawn morning of February 3rd, 1943.
"Although the DORCHESTER was part of a six ship convoy consisting of the U.S. Coast Guard Cutters TAMPA, COMANCHE and ESCANABA plus two freighters, the water was so cold and the night so dark that only about one third of the ship's compliment could be saved...
The Four Chaplains, Rev. Clark V. Poling (Dutch Reformed), Rabbi Alexander D. Goode (Jewish), Rev. Fr. John P. Washington (Roman Catholic) and Rev. George L. Fox (Methodist), gathered on the deck to rally the men.
Three of the Chaplains were young men but Rev. Fox had been under fire in World War One, before he became a minister. All four remained calm, assisted the troops, gave away their own life jackets to soldiers who had none and then linked arm in arm on the deck of the sinking ship as they prayed for the safety of the others.
When last seen they still stood together as the sea closed over their heads..."
Maybe we all could learn from the example of these good men long ago...I believe they all continue to see the face of God in his glory. God bless.
I saw another post responding to your question, "What about the Jews?"
The response was --- well, they go to Heaven just because they are the chosen people.
I hope this is true (as a Jew who converted to Christianity worried about my kinfolk), but I don't think it is Biblically the most safe answer.
The Jews, are, of course heirs of Abraham and the promise. No doubt about that. Theologically, Chrisitans are heirs to that promise by being adopted into the family.
BUT, Paul (and Jesus) talked at length about how quick God was to break off branched from the vine . . . that is, reject Jews who failed to accept Christ.
So opinions differ.
no... Priests/Ministers DO have power not available to anyone else... the can MARRY people and YOU not I can't, they can Baptize babies where we can only do it in an emergency etc... so there are things only they can do.
Protestants maintain that belief is the sole criteria for salvation. While good behavior is a logic consequence of belief, it is not of any value. Catholics have a different position on free will that enables them to say that good works and holy living are spitirually valuable.
Good works and Holy living ARE spiritually valuable... if only to the one who believes it...
i can't help but believe that the Trinity doesn't look on those who truly try to help their brothers and sisters more kindly than those who could care less what happens to them... that's where pergatory comes in... the better life you lead here the less time you'll spend there before going to Heaven!!!
but then again... that's just me 8^)
Of all the things I hear from Protestants that I disagree with -- and believe me there are multitudes -- this is the stupidest one out there.
They don't believe you can call a priest 'father'. They don't believe you can call your father 'father'. They presumably object to the one-hit wonder "Daddy Dewdrop" and refuse to listed to his song.
I'm all about polite disagreement, but ign'ant is ign'ant!
Jesus promised the APOSTLES in John 14 and in John 16 that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide them into ALL truth (obviously spiritual truth), and bring to their remembrance all that he had said to them. In 2 Peter 1:3 Peter said that by the time he wrote that God had granted ALL things that pertain unto life and godliness. So Jesus did what he said he would do. In Jude, verse 3, Jude said that Christians should earnestly contend for THE faith once for all delivered to the saints. (All Christians are saints -- too many passages to cite) Over and over the New Testament writers claimed that the complete gospel was given in the first century. Paul said that if anyone, even himself or an angel from heaven, should preach any other gospel than that which was delivered in the first century, "let him be eternally destroyed." (Galatians 1:6-9) Jesus had earlier said (Matthew 15) that if anyone teaches the traditions of men instead of the teachings of God, that his worship is vain -- useless. The question that Bible believers need to ask and answer is this, "Am I teaching the gospel as found in the scripture, or am I adding to it, deleting from it, or otherwise perverting it?" Along these same lines, Is the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, teaching the APOSTOLIC faith or are they teaching the uninspired doctrines of men that originated after the apostles' day? We have no God-given authority to teach anything that is not in the scriptures -- no matter what any council, or synod, or self-styled inspired man may say.
That pastor is the Ann Coulter/Michale Moore of the Baptist faith.
Well, Hindus believe in stories much older than that, so clearly more than the hands of time are required to make something true.
Whatever the name might have meant at one time, I am told that Allah is simply Arabic for "God," and that Allah is the name used for God in Arabic translations of the Bible. Can someone confirm this?
That's a wonderful thought. But where did this grace come from before Jesus shed his blood on the cross? Mary was sinless since she was "full of grace" prior to the Crucifixion based again, on the Bible.
Do the hands of time make it false?
Leads to another question...
Why do Jews practice differently? If they're all guaranteed spots in Heaven, why go to the trouble of being especially "Religious"? (If that makes sense?)
I am guessing the answer is that it makes them happy, or content while here on earth. Which, personally, is why I respect all those of different faiths..."Whatever makes them happy is fine with me".
Much of their teachings came from the merging of Catholicism with the Roman Babylonian Brotherhood. Mary didn't show up on the scene until 250 years after Christs Crucifixion. The rosary came years after that. It's two religions merged into one. That's why many of the things they do aren't mentioned or required in the Bible. The Church rituals are handed down through generations.
Well, they've certainly put their Christian love out for all to see.
God is not limited by a linear flow of time as we are.
The following are my opinions formed as a Baptist who grew up in Lousiana with some close Catholic friends.
I don't think it's very widespread. But there are a few in most communities that are staunchly "anti-Catholic" and there are a greater number who are just uncomfortable with some of the Catholic traditions. Those stauch anti-Catholics include a few small cults whose main teachings seem to be anti-catholic, people who have
I think most Christian scholars who have looked at the issue understand that the Catholic church has a correct understanding of the nature of God and God's plan of salvation. Those two are the critical doctrines that Christian denominations look at to determine if other groups are truly "Christian" or not.
Groups that distort the nature of God or the plan of salvation such as Jehovah's withnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists are deemed outside of Christianity, whereas Catholicism is considered a part of Christianity.
The traditions that cause some Protestants angst with regard to Catholics include:
Well, not exactly. (I wish; I am an ethnic Jew.)
To quote Paul on this topic:
. . . For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring . . .
To make a long theological point very short, Christians are adopted into the promise, and Jews, while still the Chosen People, don't necessarily get the benfit of the promise, post-Christ, unless they accept Christ just like everyone else.
LOL! My wife would probably disagree with you about that Title. She might say Wanna-Be.
I am NO Reverend. Just a man saved from hell. Trying to be used by the Lord when I can.
I had one "Born Again" Christain once tell me...
"In the end (I guess he means the end of times?) we all become Jews".
I think he was refering to those who accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior when he said "All".
This was after I had asked him what happened to the Jews since they didn't believe in Jesus.
"merging of Catholicism with the Roman Babylonian Brotherhood"
May I ask for your source on that?
Except for that part where Jesus Himself tells the Apostles "what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven, what you bind on earth with be bound in heaven..." Did He anticipate them being around for 400 years so they could teach from "scripture"?
You will probably respond that all that the Apostles taught ended up in Scripture, yet John ends his Gospel by pointing out that in no way could he write down all that Jesus did during His ministry.
Maybe they did but no one was paying attention.
The reformation has been in progress for quite a while now and news out of Newport is mostly unreported.
If A then B
IS the same as
If Not B then Not A
All I was saying is that just because a belief stands the test of time, it doesn't make it true. Truth, on the other hand, does stand the test of time (and so does falsehood).
I know Protestants who believe the Pope is of the devil, and Catholics who believe Martin Luther is of the devil, and Methodists who believe anyone who doesn't read the King James version is going to hell, Church of Christ people who believe amplified music during worship services is a sin, etc, etc, so forth and so on. I guess it takes all kinds of people to make the world go round, but it's enough to make me want to convert to Judaism.
We had quite a bit of Old Testament in jr. high and the New in high school. You should have stuck around longer!
But you're right we didn't study It as much as learn about modern day applications.
I think we can all agree that most Catholic Religous education for the past 20-30 years is nothing to be proud of.
I guess I meant that we never sit down, and studied the bible with a bible in hand...Like I've since seen those of other religions do.
But yeah, went to Mass every day, and again on Sunday. (Odd thing though...My girlfriend's son attends a Catholic school, and he doesn't go every day like we did).
That's correct. Arab Christians also refer to God as Allah.
Actually, in the Greek text (consult any good commentary on the original text) Jesus said, "Whatsoever you shall loose on earth SHALL HAVE BEEN LOOSED in heaven, etc..." Jesus was not giving them the authority to make up their own doctrine, rather he was stating that their inspired utterances would echo what had already been determined in the mind of God.
Exactly. Mary was saved by her own Son in eternity, not yet come to Earth, that He would enter through a gate not stained with sin...
At baptism, you are born again.
Please explain to be how dunking is defaming. I don't see it as blastpheming at all.
If you want to explain it privately, you can freepmail me.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
"well I go to church but I am told I am going to hell because I live in San Francisco"
LOL, The question is "will you notice?"
Is not the name "Allah" cognate with the name "Elohim" (Plural of Eloh)?
I don't think the Jewish religion would claim that all Jews go to heaven. Jews have to keep up their covenant with God. I don't think Judaism is an automatic pass to heaven.
It's just simple history. Rome needed the church on it's side for the inquisition. The Roman Brotherhood merged with the Catholic church to "fight for God". The Church became the ROMAN Catholic Church.
The "modern" Babylonian Brotherhood (as far as I know) has nothing to do with the Catholic Church today, but back then the merge was necessary for Rome to win a war. Many of the rituals were incorporated into the Church, and are still used today.
The agnostic won't be sure if he needs to go to the store or not. He won't be sure if the store even exists or not. He'll need to see the candy bar in person before he'll believe the store actually carries it.
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