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Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism (Pope Bound for Hell).
Knoxville News-Sentinel Co. ^ | April 13, 2005 | JEANNINE F. HUNTER

Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker

Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005

NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.

"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."

The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."

The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.

"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."

It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.

"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.

He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."

Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."

Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.

"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.

James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.

"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."

Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.

"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.

Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "

He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.

Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.


TOPICS: Front Page News
KEYWORDS: agitator; apostacy; apostasy; apostate; apostolicsuccession; baptist; bigots; bornagainbigots; cary; catholic; catholicism; catholicpriest; dedmundjoaquin; fundamentalism; fundamentalist; gahenna; hades; hateonparade; hatingforchrist; hell; heresy; heretic; heretical; hypocrisy; hypocrites; idiotsonparade; kittychow; kkk; livinginthepast; magisterium; maryworship; newbie; nutcase; nutjob; papacy; pope; popery; popishheresies; priest; priesthood; purgatory; rc; romancatholic; romancatholicism; talibaptist; talibaptists; transubstantiation; trollrus; wacko; whackjob; whoburntanabaptists; zotbait
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To: FreepinforTerri; PAR35
I hope this isn't widespread, unfortunetly many protestants are ignorant about Catholicism.

Actually...

... many protestants are ignorant about Protetantism as well!!!


251 posted on 04/14/2005 1:40:11 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: WinOne4TheGipper
You mean, like this?

No Christians But Us

252 posted on 04/14/2005 1:40:18 PM PDT by TChris (Just once, we need an elected official to stand up to a clearly incorrect ruling by a court. - Ann C)
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To: Rutles4Ever

I am not interested in defending Luther, or Calvin, or Augustine, or Wesley, or the Pope. They were not inspired men. They were not apostles. In many points they all agree with the scritures. In many points they all (IMHO) erred grievously from the scriptures. My job, as a disciple of Jesus, is to teach and defend the doctrine as taught by Jesus and the men to whom the Spirit was promised.


253 posted on 04/14/2005 1:40:25 PM PDT by Designed
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To: concerned about politics

Ever hear of the Eucharist?

Some people think Protestants worship the Bible, too. Everything is "Bible this" and "Bible that", but nothing about how Christianity was practiced prior to the existence of the Bible...

That's why Catholics follow scripture AND tradition. If the Holy Spirit was truly present at Pentecost, then the oral tradition that fueled the early Church must have been of Divine origin as well...


254 posted on 04/14/2005 1:40:35 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: newgeezer

Thanks very much; I appreciate the encouragement.

Dan


255 posted on 04/14/2005 1:40:45 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Bella_Bru

"You know why that is? Most people think you worship a mortal - Mary.

That's because those people are too ignorant and lazy to find out about others' beliefs. They are arrogantly blissful in their ignorance."


Maybe it is because we have been to lazy and/or ignorant to teach them as we are called to do?


256 posted on 04/14/2005 1:40:58 PM PDT by rmichaelj
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To: DannyTN

Interesting stuff Danny. Thanks!

And I don't mean to make a comparison with my following question, but...


Didn't the Nazis and the KKK hate Catholics too? I remember a teacher once telling me (IF I remember right), that the reason for the KKK being against the Catholics is because they are ruled by someone (Something) from outside of our country. He was a cool teacher. I think, now, that he was trying to find a way to get me to sympathise with Blacks, since I was Catholic.

But, I still don't know why the Nazis hated Catholics (Hell...to tell the truth, I don't know why they hated the Jews so much!!)? Maybe just because like you said...Some groups just distort the word of God for their own selfish reasons.

?


257 posted on 04/14/2005 1:41:09 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: Dean Baker

I bet he doesn't like masons, either.


258 posted on 04/14/2005 1:41:59 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan
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To: JohnnyZ

So far, so good!

Hey...Even the guy calling me a troll has stopped. ANYTHING is possible!! LOL!


259 posted on 04/14/2005 1:42:00 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: jackibutterfly

I was paraphrasing.........


260 posted on 04/14/2005 1:42:00 PM PDT by Red Badger (Entrepreneurs find a need and fill it. Politicians create a need and fill it........)
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To: Designed

Wow, you think highly of yourself.


261 posted on 04/14/2005 1:42:39 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: DBeers

I don't mean to speak for the Catholic faith. I've tried to make it clear that I'm ignorant. Except for my 6 years of Catholic school. Of coruse that was a long time ago, and at a very early age. So, I don't pretend to speak for Catholics at all.


262 posted on 04/14/2005 1:44:15 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: TChris

See, I knew someone would do it.:)


263 posted on 04/14/2005 1:45:02 PM PDT by WinOne4TheGipper (What're you looking at?)
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To: D Edmund Joaquin; Dean Baker
one mark of an antiChrist is that he stirs up trouble between believers. both you and that pastor qualify

Honestly, I haven't seen Dean Baker do anything but post what appears to be an honest question. He's been respectful. Also, this thread has, to this point, been rather civil.

I don't see any problem with people discussing their different religious beliefs.

264 posted on 04/14/2005 1:46:00 PM PDT by alnick (Rice 2005: We've only just begun to see what Freedom can achieve.)
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To: MeanWestTexan

I don't like Masons. My grandfather was a mason, but if you read what they're about-that's the insidious satanism


265 posted on 04/14/2005 1:46:50 PM PDT by FreepinforTerri (Send Attorney George J. Felos Rebukes via Email. His email is proofg@aol.com)
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To: Rutles4Ever

Quite to the contrary. I know my weaknesses better than anyone else. But, I do think very highly of my Savior. The job of any Christian is to be an ambassador of Jesus. (2 Cor. 5) An ambassador does not go out with his own message, but with the message of his king. I do not want to sound arrogant, but simply Biblical.


266 posted on 04/14/2005 1:46:59 PM PDT by Designed
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To: Dean Baker
"I've seen conversations where those who are "Born Again" (Pardon me if I'm not using the correct term), consider Catholics and other religious people "Bound for Hell" because they don't worship correctly. How widespread are these beleifs? If at all??"

They're just as widespread as those who disbelieve all the Scriptures like this: John 6:65.

Boiled down to their essence, there are only two religions in the whole world.

267 posted on 04/14/2005 1:47:16 PM PDT by Matchett-PI (The DemocRAT Party is a criminal enterprise.)
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To: rmichaelj
Mary's Sinlessness has to do with the Church's interpretation of "full of Grace"

While...

...Mary's SinFULness has to do with the Bible verse:

Romans 3:23

...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,...

268 posted on 04/14/2005 1:47:33 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: alnick

Thanks alnick.

And yeah, it has been a very respectful thread. Pretty much what I had hoped!


269 posted on 04/14/2005 1:47:38 PM PDT by Dean Baker
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To: Dean Baker

"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."



I decline to comment on the thread's subject. Rather I wish to focus on the misintended consequence of one statement from the Hilltop Baptist Church pastor. If Cline Franklin is correct that we are all priests, then why is Cline Franklin a pastor (priest) since there is no need for his services? Maybe someone should ask him.


270 posted on 04/14/2005 1:47:38 PM PDT by sully777 (It's like my momma always said, "Two wrongs don't make a right but two Wrights make an airplane.")
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To: concerned about politics
People who aren't Catholic find no need to understand. Why would they? They're not Catholic!

People who aren't Catholic American find no need to understand. Why would they? They're not Catholic American!

Next time you see someone on this board criticize Al Qaeda, the French, etc...make sure you tell them that those people shouldn't be expected to learn about Americans since they aren't American themselves.

As I see it, people who choose not to learn about other faiths, yet presume to criticize them, represent a sad combination of arrogance and ignorance. It's shameful behavior.

271 posted on 04/14/2005 1:47:51 PM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: Dean Baker
I've seen conversations where those who are "Born Again" (Pardon me if I'm not using the correct term), consider Catholics and other religious people "Bound for Hell" because they don't worship correctly.

How widespread are these beleifs? If at all??

I have heard it all my life from fundies when they think everyone in hte room will agree with them.
It isn't common to see or hear it in public.

SO9

272 posted on 04/14/2005 1:48:43 PM PDT by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

So that 50% of the world that isn't Christian is doomed?


273 posted on 04/14/2005 1:48:59 PM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: sully777

Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts do!

(Thanks for an idea for my new signature!!)


274 posted on 04/14/2005 1:49:27 PM PDT by Dean Baker (Two Wrongs may not make a Right. But Three Lefts do!)
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To: rmichaelj
OK, since you wouldn't give me a source on the "Babylonian Brotherhood" I looked it up myself on the internet. The very questionable "sources" I found seem to describe a secret race of men/extraterestrials who interbred with reptiles sometime after the great flood and who now have a secret organization controlling the world.

LOL. Try a book on dispensation. It'll tell the history of all the Churches from their beginning, and covers prophecy from beginning to end from the different prophets point of vision. Sheesh! I'm Baptist, and the Baptist Churches came from a man who lived in the wilderness and ate locusts! Let's be fair, here!
The Internet is not always an all knowing source, you know? I'm sure they have the Pope as the Antichrist, too.

I suppose the Babylonian Brotherhood would be quite weird in the world today. LOL. They were even weird back then! It must be a real liberal strong hold by now!

275 posted on 04/14/2005 1:49:49 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Vote Republican - Vote morally correct!)
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To: conservonator; Dean Baker
"Having attended literally thousands of Catholic Masses, I have never heard a priest make a similar claim."

Yea, so what is the point of your post to me? My experiences do not require your belief or acceptance. If you believe me to be lying why not just come out and say it. For there are very few conclusions that can be construed from your post to me. Foremost in my mind is that you are calling me a liar.

I too have attended numerous masses, since part of my family is Catholic by marriage [forced conversion], and haven't heard it again either. So what does that mean? IMO that such a position is only held by a minority or if it is more widely held then it is not vocalized often.

I've also attended thousands of Baptist church services and never heard a word uttered about members of other religious sects going to hell simply because they weren't Baptist. As a matter of fact the Baptist churches that I have regularly attended over the span of my life the preacher seemed to always make the point that he didn't care what religion or sect you were from as long as you had accepted Jesus Christ as your Saviour. It seemed that their number priority always was to help save eternal souls.
276 posted on 04/14/2005 1:50:54 PM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
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To: Shortwave
I once was told that I was going to hell because I was given a copy of an NIV bible and it wasn't the King James version. I explained that my grandmother had given it to me many years ago but it made no difference. Scary stuff

You just have to wonder what Jesus would think about that...Especially when you consider that the King James Version was written by Sir Francis Bacon in 1611. It was written to please King James, not Jesus.
... ...
277 posted on 04/14/2005 1:51:25 PM PDT by mugs99 (Restore the Constitution)
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To: general_re

And I bet you have a picture or your father and mother too. Thats strike two and three I guess.


278 posted on 04/14/2005 1:51:49 PM PDT by HapaxLegamenon
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To: FreepinforTerri

"but if you read what they're about-that's the insidious satanism"

Don't have to read; memorized it --- York Rite, Knight Templar.

I am a Jew turned Christian --- and found out about Christ in no small part because I had mason friends at work (was the wife who pushed me over the edge, though).

Don't believe any of the crud you read; it's all horsehockey. The core of masory is the Holy Bible -- the "great light in masonry" and the inestimable gift of God to man.


279 posted on 04/14/2005 1:51:51 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan
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To: Rutles4Ever

That's a funny way of putting it. GOod one.


280 posted on 04/14/2005 1:52:20 PM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: Dean Baker; Salvation

Radio Host Fired For Wondering If Pope Went To Heaven

POSTED: 7:44 am EDT April 14, 2005
An evangelical Christian talk show host who questioned the beliefs of the Catholic church and entertained a caller's question about whether the late Pope John Paul II would go to heaven has been fired.

  SURVEY
Did the radio talk show host who questioned the beliefs of the Catholic church and entertained a caller's question about whether the late Pope John Paul II would go to heaven deserve to be fired?
Yes
No
Marty Minto, 39, a senior pastor at a New Castle church, was fired Friday after three years as a host on WORD-FM in Pittsburgh. He said he was told that he was alienating listeners.

"As far as I'm concerned, I was doing what I've always done on the radio -- look at events around the world from a biblical perspective. I've always been willing to talk about controversial subjects," said Minto, who has had shows in Albany, N.Y., Denver and Phoenix.

Last week, Minto questioned some of the Catholic church's beliefs, such as purgatory, and fielded a question from a caller who asked whether the pope would go to heaven. Many evangelical Christians believe that someone must be a "born-again" believer to enter heaven.

Minto, who is also senior pastor of the 100-member Turning Point Community Church, said he told the caller that whether someone was born-again was personal and "between an individual and the Creator."

Chuck Gratner, general manager of WORD-FM, didn't dispute Minto's description and said he was let go because of differences in how he conducted his show.

"WORD-FM needs to function in this city in support of the entire church -- that means everybody -- and not focus on denominational issues," Gratner said.


281 posted on 04/14/2005 1:52:22 PM PDT by XR7
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To: general_re
"We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father.

Leviticus says we are NOT to touch the skin of a dead pig. I wonder if I can play football if I wear gloves.

282 posted on 04/14/2005 1:52:32 PM PDT by feedback doctor (God wants to write His law upon the hearts of all)
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To: The Bard
I have found some to be very correct in the essential teachings (That Christ is the ONLY way to Heaven, claiming that it is he whom they put their trust. I have also encountered the other extremes, encountering those who "DO" pray to Mary

Those "extremes" are both orthodox Catholic.

Didja ever pick up a catechism to read all the beliefs and where they come from?

283 posted on 04/14/2005 1:53:11 PM PDT by JohnnyZ (“When you’re hungry, you eat; when you’re a frog, you leap; if you’re scared, get a dog.”)
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To: DannyTN
closest analogy i've seen yet with a couple but's...

we DO pray to God after confession as our penance.

and as far as getting into Heaven, well belief in God/Christ is a given but we still hope we are worthy in Gods sight and not just sliding in with a minimum passing grade... not lookin for a gimmie, you try to earn it

284 posted on 04/14/2005 1:53:20 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist ©®)
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To: expatguy

Agreed! This is so sad. Also, this is one of the reasons I left the Baptists a long time ago.

OBTW, love your blog!!!


285 posted on 04/14/2005 1:53:52 PM PDT by nuclady
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs

I believe God will sort that out, according to His will. I think of the Jews as our brethern. Without the Old Testament, there never would have been a reason for the New Testament, there never would have been Christianity.

I would never judge a Jew or any man of any faith. That is up to God alone. Who knows what mysteries God has in store for us in the future? All is in accordance to His plan.


286 posted on 04/14/2005 1:54:34 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (" It is not true that life is one damn thing after another-it's one damn thing over and over." ESV)
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs

So that 50% of the world that isn't Christian is doomed?

 
 
 
It looks like MORE than 50%!
 
Matthew 7
 13.  "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
 14.  But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

287 posted on 04/14/2005 1:54:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: alnick; Dean Baker

I agree. Dean Baker is actually asking questions that I have had. My husband and his family are all Catholic - I was raised Baptist and I have all sorts of questions about Catholicism. I admit to believing Catholics "Mary worship" but am at a point where I'd really like to learn more. A thread like this gives me a chance to ask questions.


288 posted on 04/14/2005 1:54:48 PM PDT by TightyRighty
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To: johnk

I really doubt a compassionate and supremely enlightened being is going to care about what formula you use to reach him.


289 posted on 04/14/2005 1:55:04 PM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: cripplecreek
I am going to hell because I live in San Francisco" LOL, The question is "will you notice?" heck yea, its never warmer than 65 degrees here
290 posted on 04/14/2005 1:55:33 PM PDT by SF Republican
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To: XR7

Word Up -- Cameo


291 posted on 04/14/2005 1:55:44 PM PDT by sully777 (It's like my momma always said, "Two wrongs don't make a right but two Wrights make an airplane.")
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To: Rutles4Ever
Some people think Protestants worship the Bible, too. Everything is "Bible this" and "Bible that", but nothing about how Christianity was practiced prior to the existence of the Bible...

It doesn't matter, really. Christ led us out of the age of law and into the age of grace.

292 posted on 04/14/2005 1:55:52 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Vote Republican - Vote morally correct!)
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To: mugs99
the King James Version was written by Sir Francis Bacon in 1611P>Huh???!
293 posted on 04/14/2005 1:55:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: feedback doctor

The call-no-man-father guy is wrong, but the Leviticus point is moot for Christians -- having been released from the dietary and cleanliness restrictions of the law by the blood of Christ. (Hence, the "new" covenent; that contract has been supersceded.)


294 posted on 04/14/2005 1:56:33 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan
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To: Logophile
Whatever the name might have meant at one time, I am told that Allah is simply Arabic for "God," and that Allah is the name used for God in Arabic translations of the Bible. Can someone confirm this?

I will confirm. I have been to the mid-east. Allah is Arabic for God and middle-eastern Christians use the same word.

295 posted on 04/14/2005 1:57:10 PM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: Dean Baker
It's not about denomination or even whether you go to church. Those are things that help you grow in your faith and understanding of Christ.

I had a college minister who used to talk about the "irreducable minimum of the Gospel". That is: Christ was born to a virgin. He was fully God, and fully Man. He died on the cross to atone for our sins. He was resurrected and conquered death. Believe in him in your heart and speak it with your mouth and you will be saved.

I understand that Catholics believe these things, therefore, IMO, they are not hell-bound.

296 posted on 04/14/2005 1:57:42 PM PDT by I'm ALL Right! (Welcome to my addiction.)
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To: rmichaelj
That's because those people are too ignorant and lazy to find out about others' beliefs. They are arrogantly blissful in their ignorance."

It doesn't mean they're ignorant. It means they have their own faith. Only God can read a mans heart. Are you one of those Catholics that condemn all those who don't covert to Catholicism?

297 posted on 04/14/2005 1:58:29 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Vote Republican - Vote morally correct!)
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To: Elsie

"While...

...Mary's SinFULness has to do with the Bible verse:

Romans 3:23

...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,..."

True, I've heard that argument before, but if one took that verse to be all inclusive of all humans it would also include Christ, children who died before having the necessary faculty to sin, as well as Mary. One could argue that Jesus was exempt because He was God, and that young children still have original sin. I myself follow the Church's teaching that a special exception was made for Mary the mother of Jesus. And that the Grace of his sacrifice was applied to her in order that she might be free from sin.

It ultimately comes down to interpretation either way. I'm a Catholic. I believe the Catholic Church through it's Magisterium (The pope and the bishops in communion with the pope) have that authority when it comes to matters of Faith and Morals. Others do not.

Some of the Church's teachings seem hard, but what I've found is that they actually make more sense than what I personally thought. I just wanted to A) be able to judge for myself, and B) have it fit into my modern 21st century way of thinking. With age and experience I've found out how wrong that way of thinking can be.


298 posted on 04/14/2005 1:58:58 PM PDT by rmichaelj
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To: MeanWestTexan
"...So opinions differ."

Exactly - and all opinions don't carry equal weight.

Here's a weighty one, WELL argued:

God's Plan for Israel

299 posted on 04/14/2005 2:00:32 PM PDT by Matchett-PI (The DemocRAT Party is a criminal enterprise.)
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To: SF Republican
go to church but I am told I am going to hell because I live in San Francisco

Well, it's certainly a possibility, if San Fran were sucked down into Hell all at once to save on time and trouble. Are there at least 10 faithful left in the city? ;)

300 posted on 04/14/2005 2:00:44 PM PDT by JohnnyZ (“When you’re hungry, you eat; when you’re a frog, you leap; if you’re scared, get a dog.”)
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