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Calaveras County Safe Again (ATF at it Again!)
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=4458 ^ | 4/29/05 | Jeff Knox

Posted on 04/29/2005 5:23:31 PM PDT by P_A_I

Calaveras County Safe Again

By Jeff Knox (Manassas, VA, April 27)

The people of Calaveras County – the remote central California mining region made famous by the gold rush of 1849 and the jumping frogs of Mark Twain – can breath easier now that Richard Wilmshurst has been brought to justice. Wilmshurst was convicted last month of illegal possession of a machinegun and illegal possession of "Assault Weapons" in California. The judge sentenced Wilmshurst to three years probation and ordered that he dispose of his "arsenal". Wilmshurst, by the way, is a car dealer and land speculator with a law degree, a federal firearms import license, and a class 3 license. This could be the Second Amendment case we've been waiting for or it could be another case of a white-hat taking a fall because white-hats are easier targets than black-hats.

Wilmshurst's troubles began in January of 2003 when an ATF agent performing a routine inspection of his import inventory mentioned that a couple of the guns were not legal for Californians to own. Wilmshurst wasn't worried; the guns were within the umbrella of his import business and were intended for distribution outside the state of California for sale to law enforcement.

In February, officers from the California Department of Justice Firearms Enforcement Division, using information obtained from ATF, staged raids on Wilmshurst's home and Angel Camp car dealership. The raids were conducted in full "storm-trooper" fashion with black "ninja" suits, heavy body armor, and true assault weapons. This being "people friendly" California, the assault force included a medic to monitor 69-year old, stroke survivor, Wilmshurst's blood pressure as they dumped the contents of his safe and confiscated every gun he or his businesses owned.

Even though it is a violation of federal law for information obtained from records generated in compliance with import license regulations to be used directly or indirectly as evidence against the licensee, the judge refused to hear arguments that the warrants were illegal and that all evidence seized was inadmissible. Instead, he barred any mention of federal law in the courtroom and instructed the jury that if the prosecutor proved that Wilmshurst was in possession of the firearms in question (something that Wilmshurst never denied), that the jury must return a guilty verdict.

The guilty verdict was summarily returned and last week, Wilmshurst was sentenced to three years probation and, as a convicted felon, ordered to dispose of all of his firearms.

The judge in the case – who happens to be the same judge that ruled against Wilmshurst in a property case currently on appeal – expressed dismay that Wilmshurst is showing no remorse for his crimes… Wilmshurst is planning to appeal the conviction and has filed suit against the Attorney General of California for violating federal law in conducting the raid and for violating Wilmshurst's civil rights under the Second Amendment.

The Firearms Coalition is bringing the Wilmshurst case to the attention of Second Amendment scholars and firearms civil rights organizations in hopes of generating "friend of the court" briefs and perhaps getting Mr. Wilmshurst the specialized legal assistance this case clearly deserves.

We will keep you posted as the case develops. In the meantime, let this be a reminder: Your white hat is no defense against aggressive police, prosecutors, and judges. There are many things that Richard Wilmshurst would rather be doing with his time, money and midnight oil. Cross your T's and dot your i's…

Yours for the Second Amendment,
Jeff

Jeff Knox Director of Operations The Firearms Coalition


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption
KEYWORDS: angelscamp; atf; bang; banglist; donutwatch; govwatch; jackbootedthugs; libertarians; nazis; richardwilmshurst; stormtroopers
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This is an outrage:

"Even though it is a violation of federal law for information obtained from records generated in compliance with import license regulations to be used directly or indirectly as evidence against the licensee, the judge refused to hear arguments that the warrants were illegal and that all evidence seized was inadmissible.
Instead, he barred any mention of federal law in the courtroom and instructed the jury that if the prosecutor proved that Wilmshurst was in possession of the firearms in question (something that Wilmshurst never denied), that the jury must return a guilty verdict.

Let's hope the Ninth Circuit kicks this up to the USSC.

1 posted on 04/29/2005 5:23:32 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: P_A_I

This is an outrage:

Especially considering:

Constitution for the United States of America:


2 posted on 04/29/2005 5:36:12 PM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: P_A_I
Let's hope the Ninth Circuit kicks this up to the USSC.

Likewise, let's hope Osama bin Laden turns himself in.

3 posted on 04/29/2005 5:38:21 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon (Recall Barbara Boxer)
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To: ancient_geezer

Maybe it isn't such an outrage on the new FR. -- Only 2 replies from over 60 lurkers..

But ya, -- that judge should be impeached for violating his oath of office.


4 posted on 04/29/2005 5:52:30 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: Jeff Gordon
Why the sarcasm?
5 posted on 04/29/2005 5:53:25 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: P_A_I

Wait.
He had a class 3 license and an import license, and they went after him for 'assault weapons?!
I'm not understanding this, obviously.
Probably because whatever passes for thinking in the eyes of the judge and the 'investigators' doesn't quite 'click' I guess.


6 posted on 04/29/2005 5:59:23 PM PDT by Darksheare (You too can own your very own Bad Idea by Darksheare! Inquire within!)
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To: Darksheare; yall

It'll be interesting to read more detail about the charges & the trial, but I don't imagine they're on line yet..

Anyone know?


7 posted on 04/29/2005 6:07:02 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: P_A_I

No, this is teh first I heard of this.
It sounds massively insane.
As if they had nothing better to do, flipped through the names of people with class 3 licenses and said "Let's nail him."


8 posted on 04/29/2005 6:08:42 PM PDT by Darksheare (You too can own your very own Bad Idea by Darksheare! Inquire within!)
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To: P_A_I
), that the jury must return a guilty verdict

Whats the judge going to do if they return a "not guilty" verdict?, throw the jury in jail?
9 posted on 04/29/2005 6:10:32 PM PDT by Husker24
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To: P_A_I

"Only 2 replies from over 60 lurkers."How do you know that?RE the article,imo that man has a lawsuit.What's sickening is our tax dollars finance these clowns.


10 posted on 04/29/2005 6:10:44 PM PDT by thombo
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To: P_A_I; Squantos; Eaker; humblegunner; archy; Travis McGee

Just added the keyword 'banglist' so the guys from the banglist can ponder this.
I imagine they've heard something about it, maybe dark rumor or more info than we've got.

Also pinging some of the guys to this as well, see what they can brainstorm on it.
The only thing I can say on it is "yikes".

I'm only a recreational .22LR target plinker, but this will still boil down to me way over here in NY.


11 posted on 04/29/2005 6:11:28 PM PDT by Darksheare (You too can own your very own Bad Idea by Darksheare! Inquire within!)
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To: P_A_I

bump


12 posted on 04/29/2005 6:12:49 PM PDT by righthand man (WE'RE SOUTHERN AND PROUD OF IT)
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To: P_A_I
Why the sarcasm?

Sorry. My thought was that the Ninth would do everything it could to supress gun rights. I think they will work hard to keep the SCOTUS from gettting this case in our life time.

13 posted on 04/29/2005 6:14:36 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon (Recall Barbara Boxer)
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To: P_A_I

The US legal system now has little to do with Justice. Stay as far away as possible. The only hope is more jury nullification until things turn around.


14 posted on 04/29/2005 6:15:20 PM PDT by Paladin2 (Don't Tread on Me; Live Free or Die)
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To: Jeff Gordon

The whole 9th circuit should be impeached....


15 posted on 04/29/2005 6:16:18 PM PDT by Little_shoe ("For Sailor MEN in Battle fair since fighting days of old have earned the right.to the blue and gold)
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To: Darksheare; yall
Here's some background info:

Charges in gun case could be dropped

Published: October 17, 2003
By SCOTT PESZNECKER

An Angels Camp resident charged with possessing several illegal firearms must wait until next week to learn if the charges against him will be dismissed.

Richard Wilmshurst, owner of 49er Subaru in historic Angels Camp, faces 10 counts of possessing assault weapons.
A federal Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agent reported the firearms to state officials in January after Wilmshurst showed them to her during a routine inspection.

Wilmshurst, a federally licensed firearms importer, says federal law allows him to have the firearms, even if they're not legal by state standards.
State prosecutors disagree.

Wilmshurst had faced three counts of possessing an assault weapon and seven counts of unlawful assault weapon activity when he was arraigned in June. He has pleaded not guilty to the charges.
But at yesterday's preliminary hearing — set in the historic Black Bart courtroom in old town San Andreas because all the courtrooms at the government center were full — the state Attorney General's Office modified the charges.

At the end of the hearing, Stanislaus County Judge Glenn Ritchey said he would wait until 3:30 p.m. Tuesday before deciding if the charges would hold up beyond the preliminary hearing.
Also on Tuesday, Ritchey will decide on a motion by Wilmshurst's attorney to suppress evidence uncovered when Wilmshurst's home and business were searched earlier this year.

Wilmshurst's Sonora attorney, Thomas
Marovich, said his client had to incriminate himself for state authorities to get the search warrant. That violates the Constitution's Fifth Amendment, Marovich said.

In January, when the ATF agent saw Wilmshurst's weapons cache — which included machine guns and high-powered rifles — she notified the state of her findings.

State authorities obtained a search warrant and returned to Angels Camp. They found 10 guns that Wilmshurst possessed illegally, according to state standards, Deputy Attorney General Aaron Maguire said.
16 posted on 04/29/2005 6:17:48 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: P_A_I
Make a note of this, it was state "ninjas" that conducted this raid, not federal:
In February, officers from the California Department of Justice Firearms Enforcement Division ... staged raids on Wilmshurst's home and Angel Camp car dealership.
Just wanted to make that clear ...
17 posted on 04/29/2005 6:18:24 PM PDT by _Jim (<--- Ann C. and Rush L. speak on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: Darksheare
Well I reckon those guns looked ugly.
Ugly guns are bad, y'know.
18 posted on 04/29/2005 6:21:15 PM PDT by humblegunner (We ain't subject to terror, but it's unwise to irritate us.)
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To: P_A_I
From The Union Democrat - News of the Mother Lode since 1854:
Car dealer guilty in weapons case - March 14, 2005, by Mike Morris

A jury late Friday afternoon convicted an Angels Camp businessman of violating state law by possessing a machine gun and nine assault weapons.

Richard Wilmshurst, co-owner of Forty-Niner Subaru, remains free on his own recognizance and will be sentenced next month.

"There was no doubt there was possession (of the weapons)," said juror Jennifer Eltringham, 53, of Angels Camp.

She said the guilty verdict was not easily reached. But after listening to more than a day's worth of testimony, combined with the judge's instructions, jurors found Wilmshurst guilty of the two counts.

Wilmshurst, 68, said after Friday's hearing that the verdict did not surprise him given California's strict gun laws.

"They're pretty tough in this state, right or wrong," he said. "They go against the other 49 states, but I happen to live in California."

A federal Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agent reported the guns to state officials in January 2003 after finding them during a routine inspection on Wilmshurst's private property.

When state authorities returned to Angels Camp, they found 10 guns that are illegal to possess under California law, said Deputy Attorney General Aaron Maguire.

A jury of seven men and five women deliberated for about an hour Friday afternoon in Calaveras County Superior Court. A few people, including Wilmshurst's son, sat in the courtroom as a court clerk read the verdict.

Along with Sonora attorney Thomas Marovich, Wilmshurst represented himself in trial last Thursday and Friday.

He maintains that his federal gun import license supersedes state laws.

"California doesn't recognize anybody but California," he said after the trial.

Wilmshurst said he had the guns at home because he and his longtime friend, who died in Wyoming, were going to go into business together, selling the guns to law enforcement and airport security crews.

His friend died in 2002, the year before the weapons were found.

On Feb. 11, Wilmshurst said he filed an appeal of his case to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in San Francisco so he can "get a reading on the Second Amendment as it applies to individuals in the United States."

A portion of the Second Amendment reads, " ... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Wilmshurst, who said he hopes his case is appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court by a three-judge panel, was not sure when the panel will hear his case.

"It's due to be heard by the U.S. Supreme Court," Wilmshurst said.

As for the state case, Thomas Smith, a visiting El Dorado County judge, set a deadline of today for Wilmshurst to schedule an interview with the Calaveras County Probation Department.

That interview will help determine his sentence. A sentencing hearing will be held at 9:30 a.m. April 21.

Maguire would not comment on the case or what sentence Wilmshurst could face.

Car dealer's gun cache must go - April 22, 2005, by Mike Morris

A judge yesterday ordered an Angels Camp businessman to turn over his gun collection to the Calaveras County Sheriff's Department or a licensed gun dealer.

The ruling by Judge Thomas Smith came after a Calaveras County Superior Court jury last month convicted Richard Wilmshurst of violating state law by possessing a machine gun and nine assault weapons.

Wilmshurst, co-owner of Forty-Niner Subaru, yesterday morning was sentenced to three years on probation.

With the sentence, Wilmshurst may not possess or use any firearm or dangerous weapon and he's subject to random firearm searches. He also must have written permission from his probation officer before leaving the state.

"He's shown exactly no remorse on these charges," Smith said, noting that Wilmshurst collected guns to "stockpile his own arsenal."

After yesterday's sentencing hearing, Wilmshurst said he will appeal the case within the state's 60-day limit. And he's confident the ruling will be overturned in his favor.

An advocate of the right to bear arms, Wilmshurst defended having the weapons in a pre-sentencing statement to Smith.

"Even in a small town such as Angels Camp you never know when you have to defend yourself or others," he wrote.

Smith denied Wilmshurst's request to give his guns to his grandson, a Tracy police officer.

The visiting El Dorado County judge also said no to a motion by Wilmshurst and his Sonora attorney, Thomas Marovich, to reduce the two felony charges to misdemeanors.

"He has had a clean record for 68-plus years," Marovich said of Wilmshurst.

The lawyer further asked that Wilmshurst, 68, not face time behind bars because of his age and his "family responsibilities."

Smith in turn ordered Wilmshurst to serve one day in the county jail, but gave him credit for that sentence because the businessman was booked there in 2003 on the gun charges.

"I think the judge made a good sentencing choice," said Deputy Attorney General Aaron Maguire, who prosecuted the case.

A federal Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agent reported the guns to state officials in January 2003 after finding them during a routine inspection on Wilmshurst's private property.

When state authorities returned to Angels Camp, they found 10 guns illegal to possess under California standards.

Outside of the courthouse, Wilmshurst said he doesn't know how many guns he has or where he will turn them over to.

But he maintains his federal gun import license should supersede state law.

"Generally, federal licenses are left alone by the state," he said.

Wilmshurst said he had the guns at home because he and his longtime friend Michael Halligan, who died in 2002 during a Wyoming hunting trip, were going to go into business together selling the guns to law enforcement and airport security crews.

The machine gun was given to Wilmshurst by Halligan, who got it from a World War II veteran. Wilmshurst was supposed to store the gun, he said.

"I had started to build a firearms inventory prior to Michael's death and my stroke (in 1997). After the stroke, my life slowed down and the firearms inventory was put on the back burner and few firearms were purchased," Wilmshurst wrote in the pre-sentencing statement.

The five-page statement outlines Wilmshurst's gun history.

He wrote about going on hunting trips around Angels Camp as a teenager, receiving a federal firearms license for $2 while in high school and keeping a pistol in his glove box "to shoot a suffering deer or other animal on the roadway."

Wilmshurst said he keeps guns at his car dealership because, in the 1980s, a man with a gun tried to enter the dealership's body shop. He also noted that, in the 1970s, a man kidnapped and raped his office manager's wife.

When on his property between Angels Camp and Murphys, Wilmshurst said he carries a gun to protect himself and anyone with him from possible mountain lions.

"In the foothills, firearms are a part of life," he said. "Every person has a right to keep a firearm in his home for the protection of his family and himself. He also has a right to apply and carry a concealed weapon if approved."

19 posted on 04/29/2005 6:22:32 PM PDT by concentric circles
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To: thombo
Maybe it isn't such an outrage on the new FR. -- Only 2 replies from over 60 lurkers..

How do you know that?

The original post shows that info; right now we're batting 17 out of 190...


Calaveras County Safe Again (ATF at it Again!)
 ^  Posted by P_A_I On News/Activism
 ^ 04/29/2005 5:23:31 PM PDT · 17 replies · 190+ views

20 posted on 04/29/2005 6:26:19 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: P_A_I

If it comes down to it, I'm in for $100 for his defense.


21 posted on 04/29/2005 6:27:00 PM PDT by Eagle Eye
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To: humblegunner

*wincing*

Hmm.
I've seen some pretty ugly guns out there.
Most of them .22's and such.
(Browning Buckmark anyone?)


22 posted on 04/29/2005 6:33:03 PM PDT by Darksheare (You too can own your very own Bad Idea by Darksheare! Inquire within!)
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To: P_A_I

Yowch, still.
Thanks.


23 posted on 04/29/2005 6:33:33 PM PDT by Darksheare (You too can own your very own Bad Idea by Darksheare! Inquire within!)
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To: Darksheare

Jeff Knox ? .......... relation to Neil ?


24 posted on 04/29/2005 6:33:50 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. ©)
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To: _Jim; robertpaulsen

Make note; -- "Wilmshurst is planning to appeal the conviction and has filed suit against the Attorney General of California for violating federal law in conducting the raid and for violating Wilmshurst's civil rights under the Second Amendment."

Of course, to some misguided FReepers here, -- Wilmshurst has no 2nd Amendment rights in California.


25 posted on 04/29/2005 6:34:44 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: Squantos

I dunno.


26 posted on 04/29/2005 6:37:53 PM PDT by Darksheare (You too can own your very own Bad Idea by Darksheare! Inquire within!)
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To: Darksheare
>>The judge in the case – who happens to be the same judge that ruled against Wilmshurst in a property case currently on appeal – expressed dismay that Wilmshurst is showing no remorse for his crimes… <<

How dare Wilmshurst appeal my ruling!

27 posted on 04/29/2005 6:39:41 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423)
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To: concentric circles

Protection from mountain lions is real. There are many places in the west that you don't want to go without a gun big enough to stop a lion. Attacks on humans are on the increase.


28 posted on 04/29/2005 6:40:25 PM PDT by henderson field
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To: B4Ranch

Yeah, that pretty much gave the tone of it tehre.

First I've heard of this, but still -it's bad news.


29 posted on 04/29/2005 6:42:55 PM PDT by Darksheare (You too can own your very own Bad Idea by Darksheare! Inquire within!)
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To: P_A_I
The original post shows that info; right now we're batting 17 out of 190...

We are all very weary of the daily onslaught against those who think they have a right to own firearms. This is just another tale of judicial tyranny. The really sad part is that here in California, there is no one in government who will defend the 2nd amendment RKBA. The entire judicial system here is geared toward gutting the right to own a gun. The RKBA does not really exist as it was intended - it has been legislated and "judicialized" into the PKBA - Permission to Keep and Bear Arms over the last century.

Every gun law on the books whether state or federal is unconstitutional - IF one interprets the 2nd as it was intended. No court has done that over the last 100 years and no court will do it in the future. The 9th Circuit? F'ing clowns who work tirelessly to usher in the New Marxist Utopia. The Supreme Court? Maybe two or three of the current justices would rule correctly in this case, but the majority decision would almost certainly be 5-4 against the RKBA.

The writing has been on the wall for some time now. Many have been fighting the good fight to preserve what's left of the former right to arms for the last several decades. Over that time the road to the ultimate tyranny of a national gun confiscation has been plodded on by the enemies of freedom who at this time appear to be legion. The retiring of the 1994 AW ban was the first time in my lifetime that a gun law was removed from the books. The trend has been just the opposite.

I hate to sound pessimistic, since I truly defend the former RKBA nearly every day, sometimes in very small ways (like take a liberal associate to the pistol range) sometimes in larger ways (like try to influence one of my elected whores - I mean representatives). The adoption of shall issue by over 30 states may signal a change in the direction of legislative firearms policy - but right now, I don't trust any court to make the right decision regarding guns.

30 posted on 04/29/2005 6:46:17 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: P_A_I
Only 2 replies from over 60 lurkers.

All threads don't always get the attention they deserve. This one has a lot to digest for me to jump up and yell "OUTRAGE".

But I did read it and this is my reply.

31 posted on 04/29/2005 6:48:47 PM PDT by Flyer (If I were 8 pixels tall I could fit in my tag line)
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To: P_A_I

Now why would the Federal Inspector hot-foot it over to the state AG to report these fire-arms when he had proper federal liscensing for them?

And he's got some property issue in court too.

I can't help but think the purpose of this legal harassment is to get him to give up property that someone else wants. Wear him down or bankrupt him with legal costs.

Or is my tinfoil hat on too tight?


32 posted on 04/29/2005 6:49:13 PM PDT by Valpal1 (Crush jihadists, drive collaborators before you, hear the lamentations of their media. Allahu FUBAR!)
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To: P_A_I

"The original post shows that info"Oh,i forgot my smart pill today:)BTW,i've commented on a number of articles today,but none of the threads are realy taking off.Some interesting topics,but not a lot of discussion.


33 posted on 04/29/2005 6:49:50 PM PDT by thombo
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To: henderson field
Protection from mountain lions is real...

Yeah, and protection from two legged predators is definitely a consideration as well: "Wilmshurst said he keeps guns at his car dealership because, in the 1980s, a man with a gun tried to enter the dealership's body shop. He also noted that, in the 1970s, a man kidnapped and raped his office manager's wife."

34 posted on 04/29/2005 6:50:00 PM PDT by concentric circles
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To: concentric circles
Thanks for posting the articles.. Good info..


The last one brought back a memory, where:

"-- He wrote about going on hunting trips around Angels Camp as a teenager, receiving a federal firearms license for $2 while in high school ---"

I got a gunsmiths license about that same time [late 50's] for the same price, in order to get discounts on hunting gear from the wholesalers..
35 posted on 04/29/2005 6:50:51 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: Eagle Eye

Eagle Eye wrote:

If it comes down to it, I'm in for $100 for his defense

______________________________________


It sounds like it'll be a good case.. Me too..


36 posted on 04/29/2005 6:53:28 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: P_A_I

What's the judge's name and what's his title?


37 posted on 04/29/2005 6:56:46 PM PDT by nightdriver
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To: P_A_I

Wilmshurst is typical of many in the area where he lives. You can bet that after his arrest, more than one local checked up on their gun locker and made mental note of all who were aware of it's contents.


38 posted on 04/29/2005 6:59:25 PM PDT by concentric circles
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To: P_A_I
Calaveras County Safe Again (ATF at it Again!)
Citation: Misrepresenting story - Inaccurate Title

As it turns out, factually speaking, this was the State of California that brought charges against Wilmshurst and not fedgov which so many people here love to loathe; I also happen to think he has a case against CA ...

Here's an interesting tidbit - and Ii think it casts an interesting light overall on this case:

Richard Wilmshurst, 68, filed a civil complaint against Lockyer in U.S. District Court in Sacramento, claiming that his federal arms importer's license should shield him from state prosecution.

Wilmshurst claims, in his civil complaint, that the state is prosecuting him solely to cover up the theft of 10 ounces of gold and other gold coins by state agents and to hide the "cruel and inhuman procedures employed to intimidate a 68-year-old man in failing health."

From:

www.stocktonrecord.com/articlelink/080504/news/articles/080504-gn-9.php

39 posted on 04/29/2005 7:01:41 PM PDT by _Jim (<--- Ann C. and Rush L. speak on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: 45Auto
The really sad part is that here in California, there is no one in government who will defend the 2nd amendment RKBA

Even sadder, imo, are the 'states rights' groups who insist that the 2nd does not apply in California. There are at least a half dozen active FReeper 'conservatives' who hold that position.

Every gun law on the books whether state or federal is unconstitutional - IF one interprets the 2nd as it was intended. The Supreme Court? Maybe two or three of the current justices would rule correctly in this case, but the majority decision would almost certainly be 5-4 against the RKBA --
-- but right now, I don't trust any court to make the right decision regarding guns.

I say bring on the showdown. A case like this could force the issue, and if we lost, it would bring on a Constitutional crisis, one long overdue..

40 posted on 04/29/2005 7:13:02 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: _Jim

"officers from the Calif Dept of Justice Firearms Enforcement Division staged raids..."This puts a new twist in this incident.In some instances the federal gov can prosecute(in federal court)and use evidence obtained by the state(ie Cal)even if the warrant is erroneous.As long as it was issued and served(by State law enforcement)in good faith.Sounds like double jeapordy,doesn't it?That may be why the judge stated no reference to the flawed warrant.But,if this case was tried in state court and not Federal court?I'm not an attorney,but that could be an important fact.


41 posted on 04/29/2005 7:18:59 PM PDT by thombo
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To: P_A_I; Joe Brower; Squantos; Eaker; wardaddy
How's the water, frogs?

Getting warmer?


42 posted on 04/29/2005 7:23:32 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Valpal1
I can't help but think the purpose of this legal harassment is to get him to give up property that someone else wants. Wear him down or bankrupt him with legal costs.

In California, that is a distinct possibility -- this outfit will brazenly violate Federal civil rights, knowing that most of the time their target will not have the resources to fight it and that the judges in the state are sympathetic to the gun goons. It happened to me many years ago, and it was not pleasant.

In my case they underestimated us and we were able to accumulate strong evidence of gross 4th amendment violations and falsification, and we also had activist friends in high places. This after an illegal search of the house AND a stand-off with agents on the front lawn. Somewhere up the phone tree was a friendly pack of high-profile attack lawyers and politicians who launched a blistering assault on the chain of command pro bono and threatening very public civil suits if they didn't back off. The goons walked away, but it is quite something else to be on the receiving end of it, and it has definitely colored my view of the world.

Nothing ever came of it, though the lawyers told us to get the guns out of the state ASAP in case the goons decided to escalate.

43 posted on 04/29/2005 7:25:38 PM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: _Jim
_Jim wrote:

Calaveras County Safe Again (ATF at it Again!)

Citation: Misrepresenting story - Inaccurate Title

You are issuing a "citation"? How droll. -- You gots to show me you badges first..

As it turns out, factually speaking, this was the State of California that brought charges against Wilmshurst and not fedgov which so many people here love to loathe;

And you love to point out those loathers -- and issue citations..

I also happen to think he has a case against CA ... Here's an interesting tidbit - and Ii think it casts an interesting light overall on this case:
Richard Wilmshurst, 68, filed a civil complaint against Lockyer in U.S. District Court in Sacramento, claiming that his federal arms importer's license should shield him from state prosecution. Wilmshurst claims, in his civil complaint, that the state is prosecuting him solely to cover up the theft of 10 ounces of gold and other gold coins by state agents and to hide the "cruel and inhuman procedures employed to intimidate a 68-year-old man in failing health."
From: www.stocktonrecord.com/articlelink/080504/news/articles/080504-gn-9.php

Yes, an interesting sidelight.. But it wouldn't be the first time a lawman got sticky fingers on a search, would it?

44 posted on 04/29/2005 7:42:02 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: Travis McGee

I say we let the pot boil over, and scald the cooks.


45 posted on 04/29/2005 7:47:46 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: P_A_I
Citation: Misrepresenting story - Inaccurate Title

You are issuing a "citation"? How droll. -- You gots to show me you badges first..

How about an 'indictment in the court of pubic opinion'; you plead; I sentence; you perform some helpful public service and additionally you promise never to repeat said infraction again?

I think it's just a bit more than disingenuous to 'plant' such a misleading title only to stir up the passions of others in an intentionally false and misleading manner.

Just to clarify, what exactly was it the ATF did 'again'?

It's not very clear in my mind, and it's probably ambiguous by what exactly is meant by that to more than just a few others reading these threads ...

46 posted on 04/29/2005 7:52:33 PM PDT by _Jim (<--- Ann C. and Rush L. speak on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: P_A_I; Neets; Darksheare; scott0347; timpad; Conspiracy Guy; NYC GOP Chick; MeekOneGOP; Fedora; ...

holy [expletive]!
bookmarking and pinging


47 posted on 04/29/2005 8:16:27 PM PDT by King Prout (blast and char it among fetid buzzard guts!)
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To: concentric circles
A federal Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agent reported the guns to state officials in January 2003 after finding them during a routine inspection on Wilmshurst's private property.

Routine? Private property?

48 posted on 04/29/2005 8:37:02 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (I'm praying for a LoganMiracle! It CAN happen!!!!)
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To: Brad's Gramma
Routine? Private property?

It is a condition of some types of firearms licenses.

49 posted on 04/29/2005 8:40:01 PM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: concentric circles
From a posted article: "A judge yesterday ordered an Angels Camp businessman to turn over his gun collection to the Calaveras County Sheriff's Department or a licensed gun dealer. "

Such a "licensed gun dealer" better have more than just a "federal firearms import license" or his home will be the next one raided. At least the jack-booted-thugs did not kill Wilmshurst's family or pets or burn his home to the ground.

Wilmshurts had a class 3 license, which I believe authorized him to possess full-auto weapons in almost every state of the union, excepting Kalifornia, of course. Kalifornia believes that only the police and hollywood producers of Arnold movies need access to full-auto weapons.

50 posted on 04/29/2005 8:40:50 PM PDT by William Tell
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