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The Spiritual Malaise That Haunts Europe (World-weary to the point of extinction)
Yhe Los Angeles Times ^ | May 1, 2005 | George Weigel

Posted on 05/01/2005 7:30:19 AM PDT by quidnunc

Continent faces a grim future if it turns its back on its religious roots.

America's "Europe problem" and Europe's "America problem" have been debated for years. The debate is usually framed in terms of policy differences: over prosecuting the war on terrorism; over the United Nations' role in world affairs; over the Kyoto Protocol on the global environment; over Iraq. The differences are real. But attempts to understand them in political, strategic and/or economic terms alone will ultimately fail because such explanations don't reflect the human texture of contemporary Europe.

Europe, and especially Western Europe, is suffering from a crisis of civilizational morale. The most dramatic manifestations are not Europe's fondness for governmental bureaucracy or its devotion to fiscally shaky healthcare schemes and pension plans, its lagging productivity or the appeasement mentality that some leaders display toward Islamist terrorism. No, the most dramatic manifestation is the brute fact that Europe is depopulating itself.

Europe's below-replacement-level birthrates have created situations that would have been unimaginable when the European Common Market was being created in the 1950s. As recent demographic studies show, by the middle of the 21st century, 60% of Italians will have no personal experience of a brother, a sister, an aunt, an uncle or a cousin; Germany will lose the equivalent of the population of the former East Germany; and Spain's population will decline by almost one-quarter.

Europe is depopulating itself in numbers greater than at any time since the Black Death of the 14th century. When an entire continent, healthier, wealthier and more secure than ever before, fails to create the human future in the most elemental sense — by creating the next generation — something serious is afoot.

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: europe
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1 posted on 05/01/2005 7:30:19 AM PDT by quidnunc
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To: quidnunc

They don't need to worry about population. Muslims will make up for the Europeans low birth rate.


2 posted on 05/01/2005 7:31:55 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: quidnunc

Can the same be said for American W.A.S.P.s?


3 posted on 05/01/2005 7:43:13 AM PDT by RepublicMan4U
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To: RepublicMan4U

ah...the dirty little secret. Ssssh...mustn't mention that one.


4 posted on 05/01/2005 7:44:14 AM PDT by CasearianDaoist
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To: quidnunc
I just got Weigel's book The Cube and the Cathedral yesterday. His analysis of the decline of Europe into relativistic morality - and its likely destruction - is fascinating.
5 posted on 05/01/2005 7:49:45 AM PDT by TheGeezer
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To: RepublicMan4U
Yes, you are right. A comparison between Teddy Roosevelt's America when the WASP ethos was in flower with George Bush's relativistic, "One Nation under Therapy" America is striking. Not only the WASP ethos but the very people are going the same way as their European cousins - toward extinction, and with a whimper instead of a bang. Old Teddy and his compatriots would have produced a bang.
6 posted on 05/01/2005 8:04:14 AM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: quidnunc
This is coming from the L.A. Times?

Well, that rag WOULD know al about spiritual malaise. They spend a good deal of their editorial life engaging in it. What they consider news is laughable.

7 posted on 05/01/2005 8:05:01 AM PDT by starfish923 (Iohannas Paulus II, Requiescat in Pacem)
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To: quidnunc

"Righteousness exhalts a nation:.." Proverbs 14:34


8 posted on 05/01/2005 8:12:55 AM PDT by nightdriver
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To: quidnunc

Sounds like the author is copying from Pat Buchanan's "Death of the West" w/o proper acknowledgement. Pat's thesis was if the faith dies, the population dies. This is what the author of the article is saying. Nothing new here.


9 posted on 05/01/2005 8:19:30 AM PDT by wesley_windam-price
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To: quidnunc
Europe is depopulating itself in numbers greater than at any time since the Black Death of the 14th century

The Green Movement is HUGE in Europe. Isn't this exactly what they are after - both here and in the USA? The only problem is, they (we?) aren't making plans to keep out the prolific Muslims who will turn the continent into an immense garbage dump with soaring empty cathedrals turned into public latrines.

But, one way or the other they'll get their wish. The European population is heading into free fall - first by the birthrate and then by the sword. The only question remaining is, will the aged Europeans all be euthanised painlessly by their Muslim populations or will they simply slit their throats and quickly put an end to their secularized welfare state?

10 posted on 05/01/2005 8:25:01 AM PDT by Gritty ("It's Europe that's looking more like an unwinnable quagmire"-Mark Steyn)
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To: quidnunc

Here's to the day that French, like Latin, becomes a dead language.

-R


11 posted on 05/01/2005 8:25:31 AM PDT by talosiv
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To: Gritty

The Euros are just making room for the Muslims.


12 posted on 05/01/2005 8:27:47 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: quidnunc

My question is...does it really matter if the European population is going down? I certainly don't think so. It is all a matter of people making their choices not to have as many children as in the past. If it makes them happy, why take the choice away from them? Also, it is clear that the reason why birth rates are lowering is not a matter of the triumph of moral relativism, but the fact that most of Europe is in the first world. There is a lower death rate in well-to-do nations, hence a lower birth rate. The reason why population is booming in developing and third world nations is that people die more often there and more people are needed to make up for that!

Quite honestly, not even the Taliban could stop the undeniable truth that there is no absolute truth, only the one we choose to base our lives on. Not one person has the same exact version of morality to live by. They may claim to be part of a certain religion or creed, but everyone basically takes a line item veto to spots in their holy text which they disagree, and people disregard different things. And anyone who actually attempts to do everything that their holy book calls for would be locked up either in a mental institution or in jail!

Is this an invitation to anarchy? Not really...we must account for individual acts that undermine the individual pursuit of happiness: nonconsensual violence, fraud, and theft. Are there decrees in holy books that decry these things? Of course! Does that fact justify to enforcement of other "moral" laws. Of course not!

Your best bet is for the religious crusaders is to bow out of the public sector. Legislation has not saved one soul and it only makes people you have failed to convince's lives needlessly worse. Stick to spreading the message on the private sector...and in return the liberals should butt out of your private organizations guidelines.


13 posted on 05/01/2005 8:42:23 AM PDT by leftwingrightwingbrokenwing ((vitriolic libertarian))
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing
the undeniable truth that there is no absolute truth

Is that an absolute truth? Either way, your statement is either meaningless(I choose not to believe it if it's not an absolute truth) or a contradiction(the absolute truth thee is no absolute truth).

If there is no truth other than your beliefs it's rather pointless to try to convince people you're right.

By the way, welcome to FR
14 posted on 05/01/2005 8:51:42 AM PDT by DarkSavant
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To: DarkSavant

It's a paradox actually..simple as that. And thanks for the welcome.


15 posted on 05/01/2005 8:53:53 AM PDT by leftwingrightwingbrokenwing ((vitriolic libertarian))
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To: DarkSavant

and yes..if you do choose not to believe it...it isn't true as what you experience is a result of bioelectrical impulses to your brain. Basically truth and consensus reality is a collaborative effort that we all are out of touch with to some degree. What I am basically saying is let an individual decide on what truth is for them...as it appears that the religious right want to enforce their version of truth for them. That is what I am trying to convince. I don't want to take away one's faith for it makes you happy and gives you purpose in this life. I just want you guys to admit that there are people who do not want to be saved and that legislation has never saved a soul.


16 posted on 05/01/2005 8:59:14 AM PDT by leftwingrightwingbrokenwing (vitriolic libertarian)
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To: quidnunc
Eurarabia? It may be in our future. Ironically, the result of European depopulation is not the triumph of secular democracy but rather the triumph of Islamic theocracy. A Europe claimed for the Crescent would have been laughable a millenium ago but thanks to European policies it may come to pass within a generation.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
17 posted on 05/01/2005 8:59:35 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Gritty
"The only question remaining is, will the aged Europeans all be euthanised painlessly by their Muslim populations or will they simply slit their throats and quickly put an end to their secularized welfare state?"

How dare you make that accusation! (even if I've been making the same one for 6 months now).

Actually, once the Muzzies are strong enough (by my estimation, 30% of the population - in about 25 years), they will rise up and tell the old, white, European pensioners that they will no longer pay 60-80% tax rates to subsidize their healthcare, vacations, and chateaus. In other words the aging white European majority (declining) will not have a prayer against a strong, young, angry Muslim minority.

One has to wonder why on earth the white population in Europe is allowing this fate - they might as well start building their ovens now.
18 posted on 05/01/2005 9:01:38 AM PDT by BobL
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To: goldstategop

"A Europe claimed for the Crescent would have been laughable a millenium ago but thanks to European policies it may come to pass within a generation."

Heck, even 20 years ago this fate didn't even show on the radar. This has to be the quickest self-inflicted demise of a civilization in history.

Unbelievable.


19 posted on 05/01/2005 9:03:13 AM PDT by BobL
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing
It's a paradox actually..simple as that. And thanks for the welcome.

You're ducking DarkSavant's point, which is that you can hardly proclaim relativism as absolute truth and expect to be taken seriously.

20 posted on 05/01/2005 9:03:50 AM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing
So if I want to rape your sister and your mother in front of you and then slit all of your throats you can't really say I am wrong for that, right? Actually, I might prefer to feed you all feet first into a wood chipper. Saddam's boys seemed to enjoy that. Who dares to say that their personal choices were any more or less "good" than that old hag Mother Teresas? Certainly not you or me! BTW, welcome to Free Republic!
21 posted on 05/01/2005 9:06:52 AM PDT by Ahban
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To: BobL
Its actually grimmer than that. European Muslims have large families and their children have large families well. In contrast, secular European have no children or one child at best. Project those trends outwards to 2100 and we have a majority Muslim Europe. It will be a very different continent and the world will be a lot different than it is now. Can you imagine secular values surviving in such a world? This is a wake up call for American liberals.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
22 posted on 05/01/2005 9:07:02 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: BobL
One has to wonder why on earth the white population in Europe is allowing this fate - they might as well start building their ovens now

They won't need to go the expense of ovens. Large trenches will do nicely.

23 posted on 05/01/2005 9:10:19 AM PDT by Gritty ("Appeasement is even less effective when the faraway country you know little of is your own-M Steyn)
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To: BobL
A civilization that doesn't have a memory of its past glory is a civilization that deserves to die. Europeans don't care about Christianity and the church pews are empty on Sundays. So why should it matter if Europe survives? Europeans care more about preserving the benefits of a collapsing welfare state than they do about reviving their spiritual heritage. Not that I shed any tears for so spineless a people.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
24 posted on 05/01/2005 9:10:26 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing
Basically truth and consensus reality is a collaborative effort that we all are out of touch with to some degree. What I am basically saying is let an individual decide on what truth is for them...as it appears that the religious right want to enforce their version of truth for them. That is what I am trying to convince.

Are you stating that there is no objective truth? Or that there is an objective truth that we don't fully know, so therefore people should not impose their beliefs on others?
25 posted on 05/01/2005 9:10:37 AM PDT by DarkSavant
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To: Travis McGee
The Euros are just making room for the Muslims.

"Where God retreats, Allah advances"-Serge Trifkovic

26 posted on 05/01/2005 9:14:52 AM PDT by Gritty ("Wherever Mohammedans went,a broad line of blood marked the track,civilisation disappeared-Gladstone)
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To: goldstategop
"Its actually grimmer than that. European Muslims have large families and their children have large families well."

Just to one-up you - it's even grimmer than you say. For the Muzzies, having large families is a political weapon, as Arafat once said (to paraphrase) "our most potent weapon is the Palestinian mother's womb". He was, of course, referring to the Middle East, but it doesn't take much of a stretch to think that it might apply to Europe as well.

In Kosovo, as I remember it, Serbs were half of the population immediately after World War 2 (with the rest being Muzzies) - but by the time Clinton decided to start bombing them (for reasons that I will NEVER understand), Serbs were only 10% of the population, with Muzzies at 90%. I don't know the dynamics as to how that shift happened (i.e., relative birth rates, government 'incentives', Serbs leaving on their own, etc.), but (white) Europe managed to completely miss an opportunity to see their future.

The idea that a society that's been with us for at least 1500 years would let itself be defeated by a demographic attack is unreal - but we are seeing it.
27 posted on 05/01/2005 9:17:13 AM PDT by BobL
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To: Gritty
They bought them in as cheap labor. The funny thing is European Muslims are rejecting the secular values of European society. They don't want to fit in. And I find myself sympathizing with them. What does Europe have to offer that would inspire Muslims to become European? Coca-Cola and the welfare state? I don't think so.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
28 posted on 05/01/2005 9:18:13 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop
What does Europe have to offer that would inspire Muslims to become European?

Nothing to become like them. But obviously Muslims like the lay of the European land. They have been trying to conquer it for 1300 years. It is looking like this time may well succeed.

29 posted on 05/01/2005 9:23:40 AM PDT by Gritty ("comparing Jesusland with present-tense Eutopia, it is obvious which is more out of whack-Mark Steyn)
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To: BobL
Actually, once the Muzzies are strong enough (by my estimation, 30% of the population - in about 25 years), they will rise up and tell the old, white, European pensioners that they will no longer pay 60-80% tax rates to subsidize their healthcare, vacations, and chateaus. In other words the aging white European majority (declining) will not have a prayer against a strong, young, angry Muslim minority.

One has to wonder why on earth the white population in Europe is allowing this fate - they might as well start building their ovens now.


We are already seeing an exodus to the Americas of Europeans who are concerned that "Europe ain't like Europe" anymore. A few days ago, I saw where a Dutch man and his family went to Vancouver because it resembles Holland much more than his home country. Trouble is, he only partially "gets it." He is still very lefty in his leanings but there could be a time when even he gets a wakeup call. What scares me is when the Islamics get a hold of France's nukes, we could be in a peck of trouble. Also when you have a threat of a massive invasion in wartime and you cannot muster enough boots on the ground, nukes will be used and it will get messy. This could happen if Russia with a shrinking population gets into a war with Red China or "Eurabia."
30 posted on 05/01/2005 9:23:48 AM PDT by Nowhere Man (Lutheran, Conservative, Neo-Victorian/Edwardian, Michael Savage in '08! - Any Questions?)
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To: goldstategop
They bought them in as cheap labor. The funny thing is European Muslims are rejecting the secular values of European society. They don't want to fit in. And I find myself sympathizing with them. What does Europe have to offer that would inspire Muslims to become European? Coca-Cola and the welfare state? I don't think so.

That's the other point I made yesterday on a similar topic. I don't like seeing the moral decline of our Western society by forsaking its Judeo-Christian values. I know if I was one who felt that way and needed a religion that would combat the immorality, the Islamic faith would look good to me. I know myself, I would never do that, I have Jesus in my heart but to someone who is rudderless yet seeks to stem the tide of immorality, I can understand how Islam would look like a good choice to them. Nature abhores a vacuum and since Europe has dumped the Judeo-Christian way of life for empty secularism, well, Islam has an opportunity here.
31 posted on 05/01/2005 9:28:39 AM PDT by Nowhere Man (Lutheran, Conservative, Neo-Victorian/Edwardian, Michael Savage in '08! - Any Questions?)
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To: Nowhere Man

"A few days ago, I saw where a Dutch man and his family went to Vancouver because it resembles Holland much more than his home country."

I read that article also, and you're right, they're not even close to getting it. The people leaving Holland now are doing so, not because of the impending Muslim takeover, but because of the reaction of whites that don't want their country to be lost (i.e., the anti-immigrant movement).

They have a VERY long way to go if their society is to survive, even to 2050 - and they are not making much headway.


32 posted on 05/01/2005 9:31:38 AM PDT by BobL
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To: Ahban; DarkSavant

"So if I want to rape your sister and your mother in front of you and then slit all of your throats you can't really say I am wrong for that, right? Actually, I might prefer to feed you all feet first into a wood chipper."

It appears you have failed to read my entire post or perhaps did a line item veto of your own. I talked about the individual's pursuit of happiness and I specifically decried nonconsensual violence as a detriment to that. I am quite sure that my sister and mother would not consent to being raped and having their throat slit. I have no problem with people being a danger to themselves as their self is their own personal responsiblility, but to other people is an infringement of individual rights.

Either way the murderer and Mother Teresa do have things in common: their motive is self-gratification. The killer gets pleasure from carnage and Mother Teresa gets pleasure from her charity work in India. We are all here on this Earth to experience self-gratification...no exceptions.

"Are you stating that there is no objective truth? Or that there is an objective truth that we don't fully know, so therefore people should not impose their beliefs on others?"

Somewhere in between...there is an objective truth, but we will never really fully know what it is, so let us not impose our beliefs upon each other.

Anyway...back to the subject matter..you have failed to answer why it is such a crisis that Europe's population is decreasing and that there are more Muslims in the nation...unlike the "Christian" right here...they haven't openly pushed for theocracy in those nations. Also their presence proves my point...religion can still thrive within a secular government.


33 posted on 05/01/2005 9:33:47 AM PDT by leftwingrightwingbrokenwing (vitriolic libertarian)
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing

You are trying to have it both ways. FR is good for the mind in that we sharpen on another, and destroy each other's misconceptions.

If you are right about absolutely no absolutes (an abusurdity)...If all morality is relative, with no objective existence, or if we can never know what it is, then you have no business making an absolute of the "individuals pursuit of happiness" or of "nonconsenual violence". Either their is knowable objective morality or there is not. If there is, then it should be the basis of our agreement on what the rules for society should be. If there is not, then don't come to me with your nonsense about "individuals pursuit of happiness" or "non onconsenual violence". Those become phony absolutes that you are trying to impose on me with no objective basis, no less objectionable than my effort to impose bible-based laws on you. Please stop the hypocrisy.


34 posted on 05/01/2005 9:49:13 AM PDT by Ahban
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing
Somewhere in between...there is an objective truth, but we will never really fully know what it is, so let us not impose our beliefs upon each other.

You're imposing your beliefs on me.

Anyway...back to the subject matter..you have failed to answer why it is such a crisis that Europe's population is decreasing and that there are more Muslims in the nation...unlike the "Christian" right here...they haven't openly pushed for theocracy in those nations. Also their presence proves my point...religion can still thrive within a secular government.

Theocracy is part of the Islamic Religion, they always have heavily taxed non-muslims and essentially made them seond-class citizens wherever they have seized power. The reason they haven't done it yet is because there aren't enough of them in those coujntries yet, butthe day will come.
35 posted on 05/01/2005 9:51:33 AM PDT by DarkSavant
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To: DarkSavant

*Wow! Mental note.... spell check is my friend.*


36 posted on 05/01/2005 9:53:58 AM PDT by DarkSavant
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing

What university did you pay big bucks to to teach you this circular gobbledegook? It's surely nothing to base a life or a civilization on. No wonder liberal Euro society is so feckless against the onslaught of Islam. The USA will fare no better in preserving its liberty if it has nothing in its arsenal but relativism.


37 posted on 05/01/2005 10:01:44 AM PDT by kittymyrib
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To: DarkSavant; Ahban; kittymyrib

"f you are right about absolutely no absolutes (an abusurdity)...If all morality is relative, with no objective existence, or if we can never know what it is, then you have no business making an absolute of the "individuals pursuit of happiness" or of "nonconsenual violence". Either their is knowable objective morality or there is not. If there is, then it should be the basis of our agreement on what the rules for society should be. If there is not, then don't come to me with your nonsense about "individuals pursuit of happiness" or "non onconsenual violence". Those become phony absolutes that you are trying to impose on me with no objective basis, no less objectionable than my effort to impose bible-based laws on you. Please stop the hypocrisy."

Geez..you social conservatives fail to see any gray areas. There is no objective morality...but knowing that...we as a people should do the best we can. How are they phony absolutes? Wouldn't you like everyone to have a chance to be happy? So using our combined intellects..let us make a system which maximizes the opportunity! What we need is a set of rules that is flexible and inclusive without turning humankind to a primal survival test. A theocracy of any kind would fail that test as it would bring far more misery. However, the social libertarian alternative gives far more freedom for people to find their own way.

"You're imposing your beliefs on me. "

ROFLMAO...hold on let me compose myself..let me get this straight...giving people the freedom to believe what they want to believe...is imposing beliefs upon you??? You can't be serio..HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

"Theocracy is part of the Islamic Religion, they always have heavily taxed non-muslims and essentially made them seond-class citizens wherever they have seized power. The reason they haven't done it yet is because there aren't enough of them in those coujntries yet, butthe day will come."

It is part of the Christian religion as well! Perhaps if it were Christians instead of Muslims you would be applauding it! It's all about interpretation isn't it..reading it as you want it to be read. I think its okay...but you don't and you practice it anyway..talk about true hypocrisy.

"What university did you pay big bucks to to teach you this circular gobbledegook? It's surely nothing to base a life or a civilization on. No wonder liberal Euro society is so feckless against the onslaught of Islam. The USA will fare no better in preserving its liberty if it has nothing in its arsenal but relativism."

True liberty is allowing for moral relativism. True liberty is about making up your own mind about what is right for you and your own life only. Let me stress that, You and your own life only! I don't know why I dignified such an oft-regurgitated response with a reply of my own...but I feel that I have to hammer my point across...live and let live..if they want to.


38 posted on 05/01/2005 10:21:25 AM PDT by leftwingrightwingbrokenwing (vitriolic libertarian)
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To: Ahban

I sense lightning in this guy's future. Want to start a Zot dead pool :)


39 posted on 05/01/2005 10:29:46 AM PDT by DarkSavant
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing
"It is all a matter of people making their choices not to have as many children as in the past. If it makes them happy, why take the choice away from them?"

Certainly the culture of "me me me me me" has a part in the demographic collapse. But the US is also a "me" society, yet we have a much higher birthrate, even among those of european descent. I asked my daughter, who was going to school in France, why the young French are not having children. She said one big factor is a bad economy with poor economic opportunities brought on by socialism. She knew quite a few French kids with advanced degrees who were working part-time because that was all they could get. The French who do work are carrying a gigantic bureaucracy and welfare system on fewer and fewer shoulders. It is difficult to establish the economic basis for raising a family.

40 posted on 05/01/2005 10:33:43 AM PDT by ImpeachandRemove
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To: DarkSavant
I'm already part of a death pool!

www.theghoulpool.com

I won the side game Round 40 by picking the Pope to croak..but of course that was a bit too obvious...

We could use some right wingers there honestly...
41 posted on 05/01/2005 10:35:51 AM PDT by leftwingrightwingbrokenwing (vitriolic libertarian)
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To: ImpeachandRemove

A great answer...but the problem is not moral relativism..but socialism..something I think is theft myself! It would be great if they would let go of the welfare state and have the right to make up their own minds what they would like to do with the money they earned. That is the reason why I would want to do away with socialism..not because of declining birth rates...but because of the belief that people have the right to do with what they please with what they earn. Let us cut down the welfare state to a food, clothing, shelther, health care, no choices on what they get, a bare bones matter, a safety net. Finally, we agree on something!

In Soviet Russia..one size fits all..OR ELSE!


42 posted on 05/01/2005 10:41:09 AM PDT by leftwingrightwingbrokenwing (vitriolic libertarian)
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To: Malesherbes

Possibly because we're developing to a society where the only people who can afford to have multiple children are either the wealthy and those so poor that they know they're kids can get welfare (or where "fathers" recklessly sire a bizillion children by a bizillion different women). The best the middle class can seem to hope for right now is to have two or so children and try to do the best they can for them. I am an only child myself.

The other option for the middle class, of course, is to buy smaller houses, not insist on living in a trendy suburb, not buying all designer clothing, not buying a brand new SUV, and maybe (God forbid) going without cable television, so as to be able to put more money into one's family.

Of course, Pat, and whoever else has said it, is right about the demise of faith causing a demise in population. Secularization and the marketing/mass media culture have knocked our priorities way out of whack. We are only still ahead of the Europeans because we have a greater vestage of our Christian heritage left. If that ever goes away, we'll go down the tubes twice as fast due to our rampant materialism.


43 posted on 05/01/2005 2:06:31 PM PDT by RepublicMan4U
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing

"Let us cut down the welfare state to a food, clothing, shelther, health care, no choices on what they get, a bare bones matter, a safety net."

I thought Libertarians wanted to completely cut the welfare system, or have I misunderstood something? I ask this not to be snarky or sarcastic, but because I'm genuinely curious. I don't know that much about the Libertarian party yet. I'm asking you because I noticed your tagline. Thanks.


44 posted on 05/01/2005 2:11:57 PM PDT by RepublicMan4U
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To: leftwingrightwingbrokenwing
as it appears that the religious right want to enforce their version of truth for them.

It is my observation that those who fear the religious right most have no version of truth of their own.

45 posted on 05/01/2005 2:44:39 PM PDT by iconoclast (Conservative, not partisan.)
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To: RepublicMan4U

I suppose I am more of a moderate libertarian...


46 posted on 05/01/2005 2:45:48 PM PDT by leftwingrightwingbrokenwing (vitriolic libertarian)
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To: DarkSavant; leftwingrightwingbrokenwing

We can know the truth. Read, "Denying The Obvious And Becoming Stupid..."
http://www.sierratimes.com/05/04/26/209_240_205_63_44008.htm


47 posted on 05/01/2005 2:49:20 PM PDT by Lindykim (Courage is the first of all the virtues...if you haven*t courage, you may not have the opportunity)
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To: quidnunc
>Europe, and especially Western Europe, is suffering from a crisis of civilizational morale.

Civilizations
with low morale don't engage
in mega-projects!

Europe has finished
or is close to finishing
many of these things.

When is the last time
the US beat eco-nuts
and did something cool?!

Swiss cut tunnel under Alps
Associated Press

GENEVA - With a final blast through mountain granite, Swiss engineers linked Europe's north and south by completing drilling Thursday for the world's longest overland tunnel - a cavernous shaft that burrows under the Swiss Alps and will shave about an hour off the travel time for skiers in Germany heading down to resorts near the Matterhorn.

The 21-mile Loetschberg tunnel is the latest in a string of engineering feats - from the Channel Tunnel linking France to England to a bridge spanning Sweden and Denmark - that are breaking down natural barriers in an increasingly borderless Europe. ...

48 posted on 05/01/2005 2:50:46 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: Malesherbes

"A comparison between Teddy Roosevelt's America when the WASP ethos was in flower with George Bush's relativistic, "One Nation under Therapy" America is striking."

So true. Even in the Fifties and Sixties that ethos at its best was still evident. In our small town when I was growing up there was an elderly Protestant man, a retired lawyer, who used to shovel the sidewalk in front of his house after every snowfall. Then without fail he would shovel the sidewalk of the two spinsters across the street. He was a good neighbor, who embodied the WASP ethos in the most quiet, unassuming way, a real gentleman.


49 posted on 05/01/2005 2:56:11 PM PDT by Sabatier
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To: TheGeezer
A synopsis please.

An American Expat in Southeast Asia

50 posted on 05/01/2005 2:59:26 PM PDT by expatguy (http://laotze.blogspot.com/)
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