Ahhhhhhh yesssss, "..attempts to document...". Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As Benny Hinn and all the grifters before and since have proven, there's a sucker born every minute and two to take him.
"Isn't THAT special?"
Posted on 05/07/2005 8:05:03 AM PDT by churchillbuff
Ahhhhhhh yesssss, "..attempts to document...". Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As Benny Hinn and all the grifters before and since have proven, there's a sucker born every minute and two to take him.
"Isn't THAT special?"
Absolutely.
well... better that than Islam.
What you write about a church and staff that are too busy building their church can probably be applied to many churches, but as I mentioned, I attend and support a church that, prayerfully, decided to apply the "Purpose Driven" program.
This is a dynamic church, filled with people at all stages of their Christian development, with programs of all kinds to help them grow, encourage them in their faith and to serve in many, many capacities.
At the core of my participation is a small group. It is a men's group that has been meeting for 8 years. I joined in 2001. Let me give you some results since the "40 Days of Purpose". One member coaches a "Cross-over" basketball team, and has for the last three years. The point is to engage young men who have never seen the inside of a church, and never would, in all probability, to confront Jesus Christ, not in your face, but one on one. The young man who does this is in his mid-30's relatively newly-wed, and gives up a lot of his personal time to do something he is qualified to do.
Another has taken on responsibilities in kids programs. Another has gone on two missions, the latest, to Bali, Indonesia. Another has gone to Zambia. Another is going to Papua, New Guinea in July. These are working guys who are giving up a major part of their vacation time to serve in the best way they can. Finally, one group member, in his 60's, has quit his job, sold his house and is preparing for full-time service in Arkansas...going out completely on faith.
Our church is bustling with programs for all kinds of people, especially people who are hurting and need the love of Christ. I don't have time for all that is being done, and to be honest, a lot of it was done before "40 Days". "40 Days" just helped to focus on what the Purpose really was.
Yeah, the music is loud, and I can't sing along with most of the songs, but it is worshipful and quiet, too. Our preacher is good, funny (he was, after all, a former Youth for Christ director), and expositor. I could be critical about many things at the church I attend. But I keep it to myself.
I grew up in a church that was very nurturing, but there were those who didn't like it. It met my needs perfectly. Now I am finding it very difficult to find a church I feel satisfied with. I don't want Hollywood being the basis of my Scripture teachings at church, so "First Church of the Holy Cinema" (that's what I call it) is out of the question for me (they are big on movie clips in church). I feel that godless atheists are not the right people to lead off the sermon, talented or not. Maybe I'm crazy. At the same time I try to accept the fact that their core teachings are really very solid. My issue is a little deeper than style, but it doesn't make them my enemy. They are fellow Christians.
There are good churches around, but they will have elements I'm not fond of. Like being on television. And some of the issue is my fault. I haven't tried hard enough to find the right place. Seeker friendly churches are all over the place and I just can't take it. Oh, I don't mind the coffee, the jeans, even the contemporary mustic so much. It's the baby food that bugs me. I'm not going to want Gerber's for lunch and I'm not going to want feel-good "God loves everyone" sermons every week. I don't want the pastor to help me feel better about myself as I am. I want him to help me see how God wants me to live. Then I can make the adjustments. I want him to teach me how to better serve God throughout the week. Then I can make the adjustments. See? I want this guy who has more time than I have, to STUDY and KNOW Scripture. I want him to be like some really great software -- a shortcut to help me improve my walk with the Lord. That might be an imperfect example, but I just feel that there is too much marketing, too much SELLING, going on. It begins to look like a big scam. Let's trick people into coming to church. Let's give them a watered-down gospel and trick them into becoming Christians. Later we can give them the fine print details. (And later never happens.) Specifically, repentance is left out with the idea that people will repent after the fact because then the Holy Spirit will convict them. I think they must repent of all sin (known sin) first or they are rejecting the true gospel. Anyway, in reality, the gospel must sell itself. It is a beautiful message and a difficult messge all at the same time. Also, it's a message we should share while out serving needs. At church, we should receive training on just how to do that.
I think a false gospel is WAY WORSE than no gospel, because it is harder to recover from.
The Church should be about equipping believers. "Just as you trusted Christ to save you, trust Him too for each days problems, live in vital union with Him." (I think that's the Living Bible translation that I memorized as a teenager.) That's not something to sell either. It is simply a truth to be taught.
I think a pure church is far more important than a big church.
I'm rambling on and I'm not sure where I'm headed. LOL! Looking at a different angle, I also think that the world looks at the Church (true believers) and they don't see us loving each other. We fight with each other over little stuff. Some of these issues are really vital. Some are not. Either way, we ought to be more private and loving when we disagree. We split into factions, which isn't entirely a bad thing, but then we war over the little differences. Still, I think you are right that there is a movement in the church to repackage the gospel. The gospel-lite. All it is is a false gospel, and it is sad to see such good, well-meaning people sell deception. Untruth can come in beautiful packages.
I hope some of this makes sense. Now I've got to go.
"I listened to 100's of hours of Kenneth Hagin's tapes. I don't recall ever catching him in an unBiblical statement or attitude" ~ Quix
Reeeeeeally????
Hagin, Kenneth:
Prominent Word-Faith teacher. Sometimes erroneously referred to as the "Father of the Word-Faith Movement." That title belongs to E.W. Kenyon, much of whose work Hagin plagiarized (documented in D.R. McConnell's book "A Different Gospel.")
...Christ's physical death on the cross was not enough to save us. [How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01]
Jesus tasted spiritual death. [How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01]
The Christian "is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth." ["The Incarnation," The Word of Faith Mag.]
"[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ" ["Zoe: The God-Kind of Life," 1989. pp. 35-36, 41]
"Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth" ["The Incarnation," The Word of Faith mag.]
"You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was...the believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth." ["Word Of Faith" mag.]
"Why did He need to be begotten or born? Because He became like we were - separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins. He's tasted death for every man. He's talking about tasting spiritual death. Jesus is the first person that was ever born again. Why did His spirit need to be born again? Because it was estranged from God." [Kenneth Hagin, "How Jesus obtained His Name"
Tape #44-H01]
More: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/h00.html
*
Word-Faith Movement
Also known as "Name-in-Claim-it," "Health and Wealth Gospel," "Positive Confession," "Word of Faith," etc.
Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought ..." More here: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w00.html#wordf
*
"I think Copeland does well." ~ Quix
Reeeeally????
Kenneth and Gloria Copeland
These prominent Word-Faith teachers head ''Kenneth Copeland Ministries.'' Here: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w00.html#wordf
Copeland is responsible for spreading many of the Faith movement's unbiblical teachings. He distorts the biblical concepts of faith and covenant. He reduces God to the image of man while elevating man to the status of God. He lowers Jesus to being a product of positive confession who took on a satanic nature at the cross. And he promotes the occult practice of creative visualization.
Two (tip of the iceberg) Copeland quotes:
"God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself...He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even." "Following the Faith of Abraham," tape 01-3001, n.d.
"You don't have a god in you, you are one." "The Force of Love," tape 02-0028, 1987
LOTS more here http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c53.html such as:
Kenneth Copeland and The Bible
Copeland's teachings vs. the Bible.
More quotes
Could you expound on that? Why are these small differences? I agree that people do choose to leave churches over trivial reasons, but I wonder if vision and direction are one of them.
See my post #98. I was speaking from personal experience. I did not leave for those reasons, I was tossed out by the pastor for those reasons. If EVERYONE in the church believes 100% exactly as the pastor, then what is he even there for?
But .. you can't go fishing with fire and brimstone - even Jesus didn't do that. He saved the fire and brimstone for "mature" believers - who had a heart open to receive it.
If a person's heart is closed - scare tactics don't work.
Sunday morning is for FISHING (because more unbelievers are apt to be there) - Wed nights are for teaching - and sometimes include the "meat" of the Word. New believers would find this difficult to understand on Sunday morning. Sunday nights - are Holy Ghost meetings - where the Holy Ghost has more lattitude to operate - because the meetings are usually made up of "mature" believers.
My Pastor does feed more publum on Sunday mornings - but I'm not offended - because I know the purpose behind it - HE'S FISHING. Your statements seem to be saying you're choosing to be offended just because YOU don't like the changes.
It's true you can't feed pablum to mature believers and keep their attention - but you also can't feed chunks of meat to unbelievers or baby believers and not have them throw it up. It's wise to know the difference and to act accordingly. I truly believe this is Warren's message. Fishing for babies with old and tired stuff just won't work anymore. It has nothing to do with "watering down the scriptures".
I love the old hymns - it's just my personal choice - but some of the new music from "Hillsong" - has been stirred by the Holy Spirit - and it's full of love and forgiveness and strength and power, and is used to mature the saints. I don't think I'm going to argue with what THE HOLY SPIRIT WANTS TO DO.
Sorry, I misunderstood your question. You are asking if I consider "differences in vision and/or direction" trivial?
Maybe, maybe not. That depends on which vision or direction, I suppose. If it was about music, that would be trivial. If I felt that the pastor making sexual innuendos from the pulpit was the wrong direction, then no -- that is a MAJOR difference! In this case, he did that as well.
You bring in people the Truth of the Word of God. Teach it and they will come.
As for the fishing analogy, once you catch the fish with your "bait", do you continue to feed it bait for the rest of its life? Did you have to look like a fish (or dress like him, or smell like him) to catch the fish? Did you have to sing fish music (they play that on K-FISH) to catch him?
One of the major secrets - finding the church where GOD wants you to be.
The reason that's important is because GOD has placed within that Pastor - THE TEACHING YOU NEED TO FULFILL YOUR PURPOSE FOR HIM. Without that teaching .. you may spend years and years laboring for GOD and getting nowhere.
The right Pastor - for you - is called a supernatural relationship. It's very important - because if you go to the wrong church - cause you don't like some Pastor's style - you may never fulfill what GOD has called you to do - and that could be something as simple as being a great father instead of a so-so father to your children.
Take this another step. You are assuming there are a lot of pastors who actually recognize the voice of God... I am beginning to wonder just how many really know God's voice.
"Too many Christians do not know enough about scripture, themselves, to test questionable doctrine against scripture."
I believe that is the individual Christian's responsibility - 2 Tim 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Funny .. you didn't think TommyDale was "too quick to critize" but Quix was .. strange!
Affectionately known among pastors as "bathrobe classics."
:>)
WRONG.
The BIBLICAL criteria to judge the source--does the person concerned confess that Jesus came in the flesh etc.
Certainly KH was orthodox on that and the other standard doctrines of the faith. His source was Holy Spirit, not satan.
Be careful.
But .. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"!!
And .. there is no scripture which says "he who is "Baptised" and believes will be saved.
Romans 10:9-10 says:
9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
You are wrong, in this case.
And, in Mexico, there's a Sr pastor who will not even consider someone to be a CANDIDATE for a branch pastor until he's had several verified RESURRECTIONS under his ministry.
Not all that uncommon in China, too.
Will become more and more common and even shown on CNN.
I think there is a fundamental difference in opinions here, plenty of criticism to go around. I guess it depends on whether you blindly accept the new "Church Growth Movement" at its word or not. I choose not -- and will stick to my Bible.
If it is not stated there, I choose to not accept a man's interpretation if it is in error, or if my spirit discerns that error. You are free to choose...that's what this life is about, isn't it? I will keep my faith and not chase after a man who has found his own "better way".
PRAISE GOD!
AND PASS THE AMMO --TO SHOOT !!!AT SATAN!!!
What a wonderful pastor and what a wonderful part of it you are.
What wisdom.
Blessed by you and the post. THANKS.
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