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Shanghaied! Rolls-Royce knockoff wows Chinese showgoers
AutoWeek ^ | May 2, 05 | Julian Rendell

Posted on 05/07/2005 11:10:29 PM PDT by spetznaz

Proving nothing is sacred, Hongki—longtime official supplier of cars for Communist Party officials in China—showed a design concept at the Shanghai motor show that most observers doubted they would ever see: a Chinese interpretation of the magisterial Rolls-Royce Phantom II.

At 20.75 feet long, six and a half feet wide, and sitting on a 12.8-foot-long wheelbase, the Red Flag HQD is even more imposing than the Roller thanks to its slabbier styling, squared-off front wings and immense (dare we say “International”?) grille.

The unveiling took Rolls’ Goodwood team by surprise: “We knew nothing about it,” said a Rolls-Royce official.

Chris Bangle, design chief for Rolls-Royce parent company BMW, seemed amused as he soaked-up the HQD’s lines: “I’d just like to find out some more.”

Rival designer Olivier Boulay, who runs Mercedes’ Tokyo design office, was more charitable: “I think this is great. Honest to the Chinese and the Red Flag’s heritage with that big, wide grille.”

Hongki is better known as Red Flag because the company traditionally supplied the official cars for China’s ruling Communist Party. HQD is intended to show how a Chinese luxury sedan could fit into today’s more capitalistic China.

Hongki says power for the Red Flag Roller will come from a 6.0-liter V12 or maybe a W12. As shown, the HQD was strictly a non-running design study, but we’re told the car is slated to go into production before 2008.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: automobile; car; china; luxury; rollsroyce
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The most significant thing about this concept is now what it looks like or what it is supposed to be. The paramount facet to be considered is that it shows just how far the Chinese automative groups are willing to go. It defines their ambitions, and in essence illustrates how far they are willing to go.

All the same I would definitely opt for the Real McCoy and get a true Phantom instead of the Chinese knock-off. But it is still interesting how far up they have set their sights (and while BMW, which owns Rolls,should not be concerned the companies that definitely should include Ford and GM. In the next 5-10 yrs China will be a significant threat for Detroit).

Anyways, here is what a real Phantom looks like (I've tried to include similar points of view as the knock-off):


1 posted on 05/07/2005 11:10:29 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Spktyr; oceanview; cyborg; nuconvert; Rickkimble; kellynla; TarHell
Chinese Rolls-Royce knock-off PING.
2 posted on 05/07/2005 11:12:07 PM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz
Will they be selling them at Walmart?
3 posted on 05/07/2005 11:16:15 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Mesocons for Rice '08)
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The first thing that came to my mind was the list of reasons that gas is so expensive. China's ever increasing demand is near the top of the list.


4 posted on 05/07/2005 11:18:32 PM PDT by digitalbrownshirt
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To: spetznaz

WOW, almost alot of similarity, Unfortunately the chinese version almost looks better, i really hate to say it.

It would be interesting to know how the knockoff would feel like to drive vs the real one. Wake up world, the chinese sounds like the next japanese market unfortunately, i sure hope the chinese never become more powerful than they already are.


5 posted on 05/07/2005 11:21:25 PM PDT by 1FASTGLOCK45 (FreeRepublic: More fun than watching Dem'Rats drown like Turkeys in the rain! ! !)
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To: spetznaz
I'll bet Hillary already has one picked out in Fuchsia as her Presidential Premiere's Limousine...
6 posted on 05/07/2005 11:26:21 PM PDT by The Spirit Of Allegiance (SAVE THE BRAINFOREST! Boycott the RED Dead Tree Media!)
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To: Blurblogger
I'll bet Hillary already has one picked out in Fuchsia as her Presidential Premiere's Limousine...

LOL. Almost made me choke ...on pizza nonetheless!!!! Lol and g'night.

7 posted on 05/07/2005 11:28:04 PM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz
Actually, the most significant thing mentioned is that Beemer owns rolls.

I didn't know that.

What the germans couldn't capture, it appears that they have bought. (BMW, Chrysler...)

As an aside, a friend of mine said she was going to go fix a BMW Friday (she owns a car customization co.)

I asked, "What are you going to do, remove the PR$CK?"

8 posted on 05/07/2005 11:29:34 PM PDT by patton ("Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write.")
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To: patton
Actually, the most significant thing mentioned is that Beemer owns rolls.

You might then be interested to know that Volkswaggen owns Bentley.

9 posted on 05/07/2005 11:32:44 PM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz

Can anyone say BUTT UGLY?


10 posted on 05/07/2005 11:35:14 PM PDT by funkywbr
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To: spetznaz

Does Messerschmidt own Boeing?


11 posted on 05/07/2005 11:41:27 PM PDT by patton ("Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write.")
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To: patton

LOL.


12 posted on 05/07/2005 11:45:18 PM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz

Anyone want to guess what the reliability is? My guess is that it will be somehting worse than the early Hyundais.


13 posted on 05/07/2005 11:57:33 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
Anyone want to guess what the reliability is? My guess is that it will be somehting worse than the early Hyundais.

It comes with 6 men in the trunk to push it when the engine fails.

14 posted on 05/08/2005 12:08:37 AM PDT by MediaMole
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: MediaMole

You can hear it coming....Ping, Ping, Ping, Ping, Ping, Ping...


16 posted on 05/08/2005 12:24:02 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (Grant no power to government you would not want your worst enemies to wield against you.)
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To: OneWorldTory
Karl Marx does not approve

Was he the third dancer to the right during the song in " A day at the Race's"?

17 posted on 05/08/2005 12:27:51 AM PDT by highpockets
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To: funkywbr

"Can anyone say BUTT UGLY?"

BUTT UGLY :-) My first reaction was that it reminded me of The Homer... but for this car, the government supplies the security system, ignition system and a black box; plus, there's an optional spittoon that drains onto the street, kinda like an airplane toilet.


18 posted on 05/08/2005 2:19:48 AM PDT by American in Singapore
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To: spetznaz
Rival designer Olivier Boulay... was more charitable: “I think this is great. Honest to the Chinese ... heritage with that big, wide grille.”

Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark.

19 posted on 05/08/2005 2:30:04 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: spetznaz

Looks like the gang from "Pimp My Ride" got hold of a Rolls. Does it have a sound system that takes up the entire trunk? Spinners?


20 posted on 05/08/2005 2:30:13 AM PDT by GadareneDemoniac
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To: spetznaz
Honda is suing a Chinese company for building THIS:

Shuanghuan S-RV (No, this is NOT a Honda CR-V!)

http://www.detnews.com/2005/insiders/0504/16/autos-151749.htm

21 posted on 05/08/2005 3:58:56 AM PDT by Sooth2222
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To: 1FASTGLOCK45

I dont care for the front end of either car.


22 posted on 05/08/2005 4:39:53 AM PDT by Husker24
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To: MediaMole

It comes with 6 men in the trunk to push it when the engine fails.

What? The're going to put a GM motor in the thing?


23 posted on 05/08/2005 5:30:07 AM PDT by chainsaw
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To: spetznaz

I'm reading some rumors on some auto forums that GM, if their financial situation gets desperate, may sell Saturn to the Chinese. China would go for it, they would move all production offshore and have an established brand name and dealer network to move product.


24 posted on 05/08/2005 9:49:04 AM PDT by oceanview
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To: spetznaz
Boy, that car is coyote ugly! Here's a real car:

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

1968 Buick Wildcat
25 posted on 05/08/2005 9:58:40 AM PDT by Nowhere Man (Lutheran, Conservative, Neo-Victorian/Edwardian, Michael Savage in '08! - Any Questions?)
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To: spetznaz

This vehicle will sell intruly amazing numbers. It is estimated that a purchaser of one of these Chinese vehicles will certainly want to buy another one in just a few hours.


26 posted on 05/08/2005 10:02:36 AM PDT by JoeV1 (Democrat Party-The unlawful and corrupt leading the blind and uneducated)
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To: Nowhere Man
That's just another Detroit barge that didn't sell well. Here's a real car.


27 posted on 05/08/2005 10:09:25 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr
This is all the car that I need.


28 posted on 05/08/2005 10:31:33 AM PDT by Hillary's Lovely Legs (If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?)
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs

That works, too.


29 posted on 05/08/2005 10:32:25 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

It has a surprisingly large trunk :)


30 posted on 05/08/2005 10:34:28 AM PDT by Hillary's Lovely Legs (If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?)
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To: spetznaz
A real car.


31 posted on 05/08/2005 10:35:53 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("Get in the ring!")
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To: 1FASTGLOCK45

Russia used to make refrigerators which looked great...but wouldn't run.

I wonder how the engine on this beauty works?


32 posted on 05/08/2005 10:36:02 AM PDT by bannie (The government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul.)
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To: Sooth2222


Wow! They really copied it!
(Chinese SR-V on the left, Honda CR-V on the right)
33 posted on 05/08/2005 10:49:27 AM PDT by Bon mots
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To: Husker24

Husker24 wrote:

I dont care for the front end of either car

--> I agree, i was thinking, even if i had the money to buy one, it wouldn't be on my list of cars to buy.


34 posted on 05/08/2005 2:08:07 PM PDT by 1FASTGLOCK45 (FreeRepublic: More fun than watching Dem'Rats drown like Turkeys in the rain! ! !)
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To: Bon mots

Amazingly, the chinese did a nice job of copying and the chinesse copy actually looks nicer LOL


35 posted on 05/08/2005 2:10:13 PM PDT by 1FASTGLOCK45 (FreeRepublic: More fun than watching Dem'Rats drown like Turkeys in the rain! ! !)
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To: bannie

bannie wrote:

Russia used to make refrigerators which looked great...but wouldn't run.

I wonder how the engine on this beauty works?

--> Runs on $$$$$$$$$


36 posted on 05/08/2005 2:10:55 PM PDT by 1FASTGLOCK45 (FreeRepublic: More fun than watching Dem'Rats drown like Turkeys in the rain! ! !)
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To: spetznaz
Hongki says power for the Red Flag Roller will come from a 6.0-liter V12 or maybe a W12.

What the heck is a W12? I understand 12 cylinders but a W shape and configuration??

37 posted on 05/08/2005 9:27:59 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not everything that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot; Spktyr
What the heck is a W12? I understand 12 cylinders but a W shape and configuration??

Think of 2 compact V6s smashed together. Volkswagen did it with their top-of-the-line Phaeton luxury sedan, as well as for a new super-car concept they were coming up with. Which would make great cars the only problem being they had a VW badge. Same thing with the Phaeton ....it is a great sedan, but it is hard to plop down enough money to buy a 7-series or an S-class on something with a VW badge. The ironic thing is that VW owns Bentley, Porsche and Audi, and that VW by itself is a really serious and very competent manufacturer.

Anyways, a W-12 is basically 2 compact V6s put together. Maybe Spktyr can give a better answer (hint hint Ping for you Spktyr LOL).

Here is a pic of the VW supercar concept.

Would be a great car to compete with with Ferrari 430 and the Lamborghini Gallardo (and even the Murcielago). But again note the badge issue. It might be prudent for them to consider badging it differently ....maybe as an 'uber' Audi (VW also owns Audi)to avoid some of the issues they got with the Phaeton. Oh, and the upcoming Audi A8L with have a W12 if certain things work out.

38 posted on 05/08/2005 10:21:21 PM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz
"supplier of cars for Communist Party officials "

...Communism: Where the Party officials drive Rolls...and peasants still plow the fields.

39 posted on 05/08/2005 10:29:18 PM PDT by endthematrix (Declare 2005 as the year the battle for freedom from tax slavery!)
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To: spetznaz

Must be a short stroke and lots of them. That can get one in trouble. :-)


40 posted on 05/08/2005 10:37:48 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not everything that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: spetznaz

Hm, guess I'm on deck. Ever consider running an automotive ping list, spetz?

To understand the W12, you have to go back a little bit in engine history. For the purposes of this discussion, we're going to assume that all these engines will be used in a longitudinal or "north-south" configuration where the crankshaft is aligned with the car's long axis.

Traditionally, there have been two successful form factors for reciprocating piston engines used in cars; first, there is the inline, where all of the cylinders are aligned in a row or line. So called "straight sixes" and "straight eights" as well as the common four cylinder commuter car engine are of this format. (A special case of the inline engine is the "slant-six", where an inline six is tilted onto its side a number of degrees in order to make it take up less room vertically. More on this later.) The other type is the "Vee" type where the cylinder bank is split into two banks placed at angles to each other, creating the angle between them that gives the form factor it's name.

Most V-type engines have a 45, 60, 90, or 180 (called a "flat" or "boxer" engine) degree separation between the two cylinder banks. In other words, the angle between theoretical lines drawn straight down the piston connecting rods on each bank would be a certain number of degrees. The most popular and most successful V6's of late have been 60 degree V6s, where each cylinder is offset 30 degrees from vertical. As a comparison for you dinosaurs still dealing with inefficient creaky old American V8s, the vast majority of those are 90 degree V8s - where the cylinders are at right angles to each other.

Why a V-configuration engine, you may ask? Well, if you make the cylinders short enough, you can interleave the cylinders in such a way that you can have a V8 engine that has a short overall length, on par with an inline four. You can also get a low hoodline by using a high angle V engine - it takes up less space vertically. However, by doing so, you make a number of trades - you reduce the number of main bearings you have in the engine (an inline eight has nine main bearings, a V8 has four) which increases the stress on the remaining bearings, a vee engine produces more stress than an inline does on bearings because unless it's a "boxer" vee you never have balanced power pulses, and you now have a very wide engine which may not fit in a smaller car. You will also have a vibration issue because of the uneven power pulses that needs to be dampened somehow, and you'll have a lot of wasted space under the arms of the vee that you can't put things in (unless you want to annoy your customers and mechanics by installing accessories that can't be serviced from the top).

An inline six or eight is stronger and will live far longer than a vee-type of the same size and number of cylinder, but is much longer and taller; this leads to their own packaging problems. You can lay an inline down at an angle on its side (the "slant" engines to reduce the hoodline, but again that means that you have to make the car wider to accomodate the engine. However, the smoothest running engines in the world are inlines or siamesed inline engines with an even number of cylinders greater than four (V12s, V16s).

So, if you're looking at a six cylinder car from a design standpoint, you *want* to have an inline six, but you may not be able to deal with the packaging issue. The corporate 60 degree V6 looks awfully tempting, but you'll have to shoehorn it into the engine bay because it is so wide, leading to servicing issues. (Look at a 300ZX or 350Z's engine bay for an example - the engine is shoehorned in between the strut towers, and there's minimal room.) So what to do? Most makers just accept that the engine bay is going to be short on room if they're going to meet today's styling, efficiency, and other packaging constraints. VW did something different.

Continued in the next post.


41 posted on 05/08/2005 11:13:48 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

Minor correction to that last - a V8 has five main bearings.

What VW did is to build a relatively short stroke V6 that had a 15 degree angle. This made the engine much narrower than a traditional 60 degree V6, yet it allowed them to keep the length shorter than an inline six while reducing internal stresses, vibration to near I6 levels. It also, incidentally, let them put medium displacement six cylinder engines in cars that normally would have had to make do with a large displacement (and buzzy) four cylinder. A cutaway picture of the beast can be seen at http://heckteck.de/vr6.jpg - it's a very clever job of engineering. What does this have to do with the W12?

Most V12's are essentially two inline sixes running off a common crankshaft ("siamesed"). Since the VR6 is sort of a hybrid between an inline six and a V6 and leans more towards the inline side, VW decided to see what happened if they siamesed two VR6's together. What they got was the W12, which turns out to be a very good engine indeed - it's a lot shorter than it is wide, which makes for interesting packaging options. VW has further adapted this technique to create a W8 and a W16; the W8 has already been used in the Passat, which wouldn't be able to accomodate anything larger than a conventional V6 under normal circumstances.

The W12 is 72 degrees between the two VR6 modules that comprise each bank. It's 512mm long, 710mm tall, 715mm wide, and weighs just 239kg. Compare that to a "traditional" BMW V12 which is about the same height and width but twice the length and you can see the advantages. It also uses quite a bit of higher technologies - variable valve timing, exotic metallurgy, lots more.

There are disadvantages to this idea, though. The casting and machining is more difficult to successfully achieve than, say, the BMW or Mercedes V12s (with a corresponding relative increase in production price somewhat mitigated by the fact that it's just two VR6's) and the valvetrain can be a problem to design (getting four cams into that space can get ugly). In addtion, special attention has to be paid to the lubrication system design to ensure that weird things do not happen - and you have to be very particular about what kind of oil goes into the beast.

Any questions? :)


42 posted on 05/08/2005 11:39:23 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: spetznaz
Soon they will be making counterfeit cheese.

An American Expat in Southeast Asia

44 posted on 05/09/2005 3:11:33 PM PDT by expatguy (http://laotze.blogspot.com/)
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To: spetznaz
"When the revolution comes everyone will drive a Rolls-Royce!"

"What happens if I don't like Rolls-Royces?"

"When the revolution comes you'll have no choice."

45 posted on 05/09/2005 3:14:12 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: spetznaz

So we can get the Chinese knock off for $1000 and as a side benfit, it comes with a McDonald's Happy Meal coupon?

Plus, a big plus....radiation and bullet proof?


46 posted on 05/09/2005 3:14:23 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: spetznaz

the total length is EIGHT FEET MORE THAN IT'S WHEELBASE!

It aint no minicooper...


47 posted on 05/09/2005 3:15:02 PM PDT by RobRoy (Child support and maintenence (alimony) are what we used to call indentured slavery)
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To: spetznaz; concordKIWI; blackie

,,, it seems they can copy everything except democracy.


48 posted on 05/09/2005 3:15:31 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: spetznaz

Yeah, and a Granada looks like a Mercedes...


49 posted on 05/09/2005 3:15:34 PM PDT by RobRoy (Child support and maintenence (alimony) are what we used to call indentured slavery)
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To: spetznaz

Hideous and hideouser.

And they're probably both made of that famously soft Chinese steel.


50 posted on 05/09/2005 3:16:53 PM PDT by Petronski (Pope Benedict XVI: A German Shepherd on the Throne of Peter)
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