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2nd Circuit Upholds New York Handgun Limits (2nd Amendment only covers federal laws - Judge Wesley)
New York Law Journal ^ | 5-10-2005 | Mark Hamblett

Posted on 05/10/2005 10:20:58 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan

2nd Circuit Upholds New York Handgun Limits
Tuesday May 10, 2:59 am ET
Mark Hamblett, New York Law Journal

New York state's handgun licensing scheme does not violate the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled. Upholding the dismissal of a suit brought by an out-of-state resident barred from being allowed to carry a handgun under the licensing scheme, the circuit also found in Bach v. Pataki, 03-9123, that the Privileges and Immunities Clause of Article IV "cannot preclude New York's residency requirement in light of the State's substantial interest in monitoring handgun licenses."

Judge Richard Wesley wrote the opinion for the unanimous three-judge panel.

The suit was brought by David D. Bach, a Virginia resident who is licensed in that state to carry his Ruger P-85 9mm pistol. Bach wanted to bring the weapon with him during regular visits to his parents in upstate New York.

Bach works as a lawyer with the Navy's Office of the General Counsel. He also holds a Department of Defense top security clearance, is a commissioned officer in the U.S. Naval Reserve and is a veteran Navy SEAL.

He claimed that he wanted to carry the weapon because during the trips to see his parents, he and his family travel through areas with extremely high crime rates. Bach reported reading about "unarmed law-abiding citizens being slain by sadistic predators despite the exceptional efforts of law enforcement."

After being informed by the New York State Police that he would not be eligible for an exemption from the rule that out-of-state residents cannot obtain permits to carry handguns, Bach filed suit in the Northern District.

But his claims that the bar on nonresident permits violated the Second Amendment's "right to keep and bear arms" and the Privileges and Immunities Clause were dismissed by Northern District Judge Norman A. Mordue.

Mordue held that Bach could not allege a constitutional right to bear arms because the "Second Amendment is not a source of individual rights." And the Privileges and Immunities Clause was not violated by the permit rule, he said, because "the factor of residence has a substantial and legitimate connection with the purposes of the permit scheme such that the disparate treatment of nonresidents is justifiable."

The 2nd Circuit panel said that New York regulates handguns primarily through Article 265 of the Penal Law, which creates a general ban on handgun possession, and Article 400 which carves out an exemption for licensed use of handguns.

Judge Wesley noted that Bach had asked the 2nd Circuit to declare the right to keep and bear arms to be an individual, rather than a collective right. In doing so, he invoked dicta in a 2001 5th Circuit case (U.S. v. Emerson, 270 F.3d 203) and a U.S. Department of Justice Office of Legal Counsel opinion.

STATE'S ARGUMENT

New York state countered by arguing that the Second Amendment is only a guarantee to the states of "the collective right to fortify their respective 'well regulated' militias."

"Although the sweep of the Second Amendment has become the focus of a national legal dialogue, we see no need to enter into that debate," Wesley said. "Instead, we hold that the Second Amendment's 'right to keep and bear arms' imposes on only federal, not state, legislative efforts." (Dan: What about the 14th amendment)

In so holding, Wesley said the 2nd Circuit was joining five other circuits, and it was following the lead of the U.S. Supreme Court in Presser v. Illinois, 16 U.S. 2252 (1886), which he said "stands for the proposition that the right of the people to keep and bear arms, whatever else its nature, is a right only against the federal government, not against the states."

As to Bach's argument that the handgun law discriminates against nonresidents with regard to a protected privilege under the Privileges and Immunities Clause, Wesley said the court was rejecting that challenge because "New York's interest in monitoring gun licenses is substantial and New York's restriction of licenses to residents and persons working primarily within the State is sufficiently related to this interested."

That monitoring interest, he said, is "in essence, an interest in continually obtaining relevant behavioral information" -- licensing officers having the power to revoke licenses for "poor judgment" based, in part, on local incidents.

Wesley said that the rationale for monitoring is "distinct from rationales rejected in other Privileges and Immunities Clause cases."

"Most importantly, the monitoring rationale is not an interest of merely 'general concern,' to which a resident/nonresident distinction would not be tailored, but, rather, actually turns on where a person spends his or her time," he said, and the fact that there is an exception to the rule for nonresidents working in-state "is consistent with this criterion."

Judges Jon Newman and Joseph McLaughlin joined in the opinion.

Kevin J. Miller and David C. Frederick of Kellogg, Huber, Hansen, Todd & Evans in Washington, D.C., represented Bach, who was of counsel for the case.

Assistant Solicitor General Frank Brady, Deputy Solicitor General Daniel Smirlock, Senior Assistant Solicitor General Nancy A. Spiegel and Attorney General Eliot Spitzer represented the state.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: 2ndcircuit; bang; banglist; elliotspitzer; gungrabbers; guns; judges; ruling; spitzer; statesrights
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To: Dr.Zoidberg

Get a good bolt action rifle, some good optics and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!



Agreed, except that a semi-auto battle rifle is much more useful that a sniper rifle. An army of snipers (and we all fancy ourselves such) is no more useful than a team of quarterbacks.


51 posted on 05/11/2005 11:37:41 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: sourcery
The Fourteenth Ammendment was adopted precisely because the Southern States were denying Blacks the right to bear arms.

What?!?

Having read more of the Congressional Globe than I would have liked, I can't recall a single statement about constitutionalizing the right to bear arms as a goal of the 14th Amendment. In fact, debate over Section 1 of the amendment is pretty sparse--the general consensus is that it was meant to constitutionalize the Civil Rights Act of 1866--which had already been debated ad nauseam, and again, I don't recall much (read: anything) about the right to bear arms in there.

52 posted on 05/11/2005 11:42:59 AM PDT by Publius Valerius
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To: Dan from Michigan; All
Prediction:

SCOTUS takes this or a similar case in the next several years.

We "win" when they recognize an individual right. But they will remand for the lower court to determine whether it is a "reasonable restriction" (Ashcroft's favorite words), and the lower court will find (not surprisingly) that it is, and SCOTUS will not hear that appeal.

Then, we look around after the cheering and realize that instead of spending the past decades arguing against the unlawful infringements, we spent our energy fighting the laughable Brady straw man about collective rights, and are back where we started, with the antis having held their ground (and often having gotten the NRA to compromise further.) They have kept us from fighting for repeal of 1986, 1968, and 1934, their big victories for a generation.

Winning the individual right will mean virtually nothing. Keep your eyes on the ball.
53 posted on 05/11/2005 11:46:24 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: Dan from Michigan

Am I the only one whose eyes glaze over reading this? I have an interest in this subject but I found myself unable to distill the article into a + or -.


54 posted on 05/11/2005 11:46:42 AM PDT by CCCnative (waiting for socialism to fail in Santa Cruz as it did in Soviet Russia)
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To: Publius Valerius
See The Fourteenth Amendment and the Right To Keep and Bear Arms: The Intent of the Framers
55 posted on 05/11/2005 12:06:41 PM PDT by sourcery (Resistance is futile: We are the Blog)
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To: Beelzebubba
Bolts tend to be cheaper to purchase, easier to maintain and they don't carry that whole "EVIL BLACK GUN" stigma that frightens so many would be shooters away from the sport.

Once they get used to the whole breathe, hold, squeeze, grin circuit, they can upgrade to something more advanced.

And I'm no sniper, not by any stretch of the definition. I just know what works for me. Give me my winchester model 70 and a few boxes of 180 grain nosler partitions and I'm a happy camper.
56 posted on 05/11/2005 12:13:30 PM PDT by Dr.Zoidberg (This tagline brought to you by Islam. Islam, only the best of the 12th century for you and yours.)
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To: sourcery

I read what you posted earlier. It's bogus. Bad scholarship; at worst, deliberately misleading, at best, it is horribly sloppy.

First, in the entire debate over the Civil Rights Act of 1866, (which was substantial) the author points to a few isolated and stray comments, about a dozen, regarding the right to keep and bear arms, some of which are taken horribly out of context; I checked a few of his citations.

Second, his "analysis" of the 14th Amendment and the right to bear arms, which is supposedly the point of the paper (after all, it is the title) is like two paragraphs! Two! Are you kidding?

Third, the vast majority of his focus (understandably) is on the Thirteenth Amendment and the Civil Rights Act, over which there was a great deal of debate as to whether the Amendment itself guaranteed certain civil (as opposed to political) rights. SOME of the framers argued that the 13th Amendment ITSELF guaranteed civil rights, such as the right to contract, own property, etc. But this was a minority of Senators, which is why the 14th Amendment was later passed--to ensure the Constitutionality of the Civil Rights Act of 1866.

Which brings me to the text of the Act itself, here in relevant provisions:

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States; and such citizens, of every race and color, without regard to any previous condition of slavery or involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall have the same right, in every State and Territory in the United States, to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, and give evidence, to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and personal property, and to full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of person and property, as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, and penalties, and to none other, any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, to the contrary notwithstanding.

Note that the guarantees are specific: enforce contracts, sue, own property, etc. I suppose that one could argue that "all laws for the security of person and property" is a guarantee of the right to bear arms, but that's a pretty big stretch, given the text of the amendment itself and the debate surrounding its adoption. It seems pretty clear that it wasn't one of the rights intended to be protected by Congress itself; a few stray marks by some Congressmen aside.

Finally, you could argue that "equal" doesn't mean "equal" in the dictionary sense, but that "equal" itself implies some sort of inherent protection of the law; that the state can't take away rights from anyone without violating the law. Jacobus TenBroek makes this argument in his book, "Equal Under Law," but it's a pretty weak argument for a variety of reasons. For obvious reasons--equal means equal--not a substantive grant, but this was also decidedly not the understanding of the framers, who definitely did not want to radically upset the notion of Our Federalism.

I could probably write a book-length response to why this article is wrong, but it is summed up, rather basically, by the fact that the equal protection clause was not intended to secure absolute rights; merely freedom from discrimination, and only then in a very narrow classification of certain civil rights.

A much more comprehensive analysis on the Reconstruction amendments (and a tour de force in legal reasoning) is Raoul Berger's book, "Government by Judiciary," generously available online at the following address:

http://oll.libertyfund.org/Texts/LFBooks/Berger0051/GovernmentByJudiciary/0003_Bk.html


57 posted on 05/11/2005 12:34:58 PM PDT by Publius Valerius
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To: Dr.Zoidberg
I think an M1A meets both our ideals. Accurate, effective, and uncontroversial looking.
58 posted on 05/11/2005 1:01:26 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: Dan from Michigan
Mordue held that Bach could not allege a constitutional right to bear arms because the "Second Amendment is not a source of individual rights."...

IGNORANT OR INTENTIONALLY REVISIONIST JUDGES!

The Preamble to the Bill of Rights





Effective December 15, 1791
Articles in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.

PREAMBLE
The conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution.





59 posted on 05/11/2005 1:19:18 PM PDT by vannrox (The Preamble to the Bill of Rights - without it, our Bill of Rights is meaningless!)
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To: Publius Valerius; sourcery
In fact, debate over Section 1 of the amendment is pretty sparse--the general consensus is that it was meant to constitutionalize the Civil Rights Act of 1866--which had already been debated ad nauseam, and again, I don't recall much (read: anything) about the right to bear arms in there.

Bump.

For over 140 years more than 70 justices of the Supreme Court consistently held that the first ten amendments to the Constitution applied as a limitation to the Federal Government only and not in any manner to the states, and for 70 years following the so-called adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment some 35 justices from every corner of the Nation have held that the Fourteenth Amendment did not make the first ten amendments applicable to the states. Some of those justices had helped to frame the original Constitution and the first ten amendments and had worked to secure the adoption thereof. Others had participated in the war between the states and were acquainted at firsthand with the purposes intended to be accomplished by the Fourteenth Amendment. All of them interpreted the Constitution, including the amendments, with knowledge and wisdom born of intimacy with the problems which had called forth the documents in the first place.
Justice Albert H. Ellett, Dyett v. Turner, 20 Utah 2d 403, 439 P. 2d 266 (1968)

60 posted on 05/11/2005 2:16:42 PM PDT by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross. HIS love for us kept Him there.(||)
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To: Dan from Michigan

Please die soon traitorous bastards.


61 posted on 05/11/2005 2:19:14 PM PDT by Sir Gawain (Jeb Pilate and the Republican Congress: Stood by while someone died)
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To: Sir Gawain

Of natural causes of course.


62 posted on 05/11/2005 2:19:33 PM PDT by Sir Gawain (Jeb Pilate and the Republican Congress: Stood by while someone died)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices

Actually if you really want to take it further, the first nine amendments are specifically about the rights of the individual.

It is just the left that wants to carve out an anti individual, collective exception for the second amendment.


63 posted on 05/11/2005 2:20:09 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: Beelzebubba
Except for being a little pricey, I can't argue with you.

I'd love to have one, but right now, finances guarantee I'll be shooting what I have on hand for the next few years at least.
64 posted on 05/11/2005 2:22:35 PM PDT by Dr.Zoidberg (This tagline brought to you by Islam. Islam, only the best of the 12th century for you and yours.)
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To: Dan from Michigan
Pin ping ping ping

Can I join in ? I own houses in both VA an NY, and posess a VA CCW.

I also have significantly more than a TS clearance, am a member of the draft board (presidential appointment, no less), and worked in the pentagon for two years (ending in 2003).

65 posted on 05/11/2005 2:24:44 PM PDT by patton ("Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write.")
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To: King Prout
And same-sex marriages from other states....
66 posted on 05/11/2005 2:29:23 PM PDT by dhs12345
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To: Dan from Michigan

Thanks for posting this. I've been so confused thinking that I had rights because of my Creator. Now I know that the gubmint will decide for me what I'm allowed to do and if I can defend my life against predators.

I know that there is NOTHING about New York that would induce me to go there or spend any money there. If I have a choice of products made in New York or any other foreign country, I pick one of the other foreign countries.


67 posted on 05/11/2005 2:40:10 PM PDT by Badray (If you don't want to change your mind, at least get some more info and make a new decision.)
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To: DumpsterDiver; MeekOneGOP; PhilDragoo; Happy2BMe; potlatch; ntnychik; Smartass

68 posted on 05/11/2005 2:41:42 PM PDT by devolve (My WWII Tribute: http://pro.lookingat.us/WWII.html - more traffic than DU-Koz-LDot)
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To: Torie

Same analysis as mine, selective incorporation by unoriginal whackjobs with a cause.


69 posted on 05/11/2005 3:11:54 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: B4Ranch

70 posted on 05/11/2005 4:46:24 PM PDT by glock rocks (For the love of all that's good and decent, don't try this at home)
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To: devolve; MeekOneGOP; potlatch; ntnychik; Happy2BMe; Boazo; OXENinFLA; Grampa Dave; Lady Jag; ...

Mordue, Norman A.

Born 1942 in Elmira, NY

Federal Judicial Service:
U. S. District Court, Northern District of New York
Nominated by William J. Clinton on October 5, 1998, to a seat vacated by Rosemary S. Pooler;
Confirmed by the Senate on October 21, 1998, and received commission on October 22, 1998.

Education:
Syracuse University, B.A., 1966
Syracuse University College of Law, J.D., 1971

Professional Career:
U.S. Army Captain, 1966-1968
Law clerk, Onondaga County District Attorney's Office, Onondaga County, New York, 1970-1972
Assistant district attorney, Onondaga County, New York, 1972-1974
Senior assistant district attorney, Onondaga County, New York, 1974-1976
Chief assistant district attorney, Onondaga County, New York, 1976-1982
Adjunct professor of law, Syracuse University College of Law
County court judge, Onondaga County, New York, 1982-1985
Justice, New York Supreme Court, Fifth Judicial District, New York, 1985-1998

Race or Ethnicity: White
Gender: Male
71 posted on 05/11/2005 5:51:01 PM PDT by Smartass (Si vis pacem, para bellum - Por el dedo de Dios se escribió)
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To: Dan from Michigan; The Sailor; txradioguy; Jet Jaguar; Defender2; Blue Scourge; ...
Text of the Second Amendment
"A well regulated Militia
being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."


Anyone who actually reads AND understands the 2nd Amendment will see that there is no need or authority for any type of gun registration and there is no need for anyone to have to apply for a license to carry a gun.
Any political party, politician, judge (etc), organization or individual who trys to convince you that:
1) you must register a firearm
2) you must pass a background check
3) you must wait (x) amount of days before you can get your firearm
4) you need to have a license to carry a gun
is either uneducated about OUR rights as citizens
OR is actively working to undermine OUR country.

How Did the Founders Understand the Second Amendment?

CONGRESS in 1866, 1941 and 1986 REAFFIRMS THE SECOND AMENDMENT
The Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment right to keep and bear firearms,
originated in the United States Congress in 1789 before being ratified by the States.
On three occasions since then--in 1866, 1941, and 1986--
Congress enacted statutes to reaffirm this guarantee of personal freedom
and to adopt specific safeguards to enforce it.


ON THE DAY BEFORE Thanksgiving 1993,
the 103d US Congress brought forth a constitutional turkey.
The 103d Congress decided that the Second Amendment did not mean what it said
("...shall not be infringed") and passed the Brady bill.

How the Brady Bill Passed (and subsequently - "Instant Check")
When the Brady Bill was passed into law on November 24, 1993,
the Senate voted on the Conference Report
and passed the Brady Bill by UNANIMOUS CONSENT.



72 posted on 05/11/2005 6:46:24 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Want better gun control? Eat more carrots!)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

BTTT


73 posted on 05/11/2005 6:51:47 PM PDT by international american (Tagline now flameproof....purchased from "Conspiracy Guy Custom Taglines"LLC)
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To: Dan from Michigan; BOBWADE; Mrs Zip
Mordue held that Bach could not allege a constitutional right to bear arms because the "Second Amendment is not a source of individual rights." And the Privileges and Immunities Clause was not violated by the permit rule, he said, because "the factor of residence has a substantial and legitimate connection with the purposes of the permit scheme such that the disparate treatment of nonresidents is justifiable."

Is it possible that this a liberal court? Wake up, people.

74 posted on 05/11/2005 7:02:21 PM PDT by zip (.Remember: DimocRat lies told often enough became truth to 48% of Americans (NRA)))
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To: PzGr43

just a question:

are you allowed to own handguns in New York State?
without a special licence?


75 posted on 05/11/2005 7:10:07 PM PDT by beebuster2000
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To: Dr.Zoidberg
"Get a good bolt action rifle, some good optics and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!"

I have a Rem bdl in .308 Win, Hvy bbl varmit (26"), with a 40xb trigger (adj down to abt 2 oz. I believe), and burris 6x18scope. It shoots 1/2 min accuracy. And, of course, several reloading dies.

76 posted on 05/11/2005 7:16:07 PM PDT by de Buillion (God bless John Moses Browning and the NRA)
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To: chris1; All

"What I don't understand is how people can argue that every other amendment gives individual rights, BUT NOT THE 2ND." Because it is convinient for liberal statists:

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html


77 posted on 05/11/2005 7:31:55 PM PDT by groanup (http://fairtax.org)
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To: Dan from Michigan

Expected from a state run for and by commies.


78 posted on 05/11/2005 7:41:12 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: ConservativeLawyer

Only a gun hating liberal could read the same word in the same context and come up with different meaning. I hope this goes to appeal.


79 posted on 05/11/2005 7:42:37 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: Travis McGee

And just where is the long awaited sequel?


80 posted on 05/11/2005 7:46:06 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: Dan from Michigan

Well, this certainly looks like a juicy USSC challenge.


81 posted on 05/11/2005 7:48:09 PM PDT by shellshocked (They're undocumented Border Patrol agents, not vigilantes.)
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To: dmanLA

"History and fact doesn't matter to most in government anymore."

True, and a good thing the founders put the 2nd in to ensure that can be changed when necessary.


82 posted on 05/11/2005 7:49:55 PM PDT by shellshocked (They're undocumented Border Patrol agents, not vigilantes.)
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To: PzGr43

>>This will mean the waverers will turn ....<<

Never waive your rights when you should be waving the Flag!


83 posted on 05/11/2005 7:55:50 PM PDT by B4Ranch ( Report every illegal alien that you meet. Call 866-347-2423, it's a FREE CALL)
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To: Dan from Michigan; All

Join the NRA while we can still vote through the ballot box instead of the ammo box.

And if you are already a member, please put the initials in your tagline. Thank you.


84 posted on 05/11/2005 8:05:23 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Vote a Straight Republican Ballot. Rid the country of dems. NRA)
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To: Shooter 2.5

About 1/2 through my life membership dues. (Easy pay life)


85 posted on 05/11/2005 8:06:36 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("My guvnor don't got the answer")
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To: Robert_Paulson2
Perhaps all our enumerated rights, are really just for the good of the collective... including speech.

Well, even the enumerated rights don't really mean "what the words say."

After all, the SCOTUS ruled that "Congress shall make no law" doesn't really mean that "Congress shall make no law."

Mark

86 posted on 05/11/2005 8:10:08 PM PDT by MarkL (I've got a fever, and the only prescription is MORE COWBELL!!!)
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To: SittinYonder
Funny, I thought our country was founded on the idea that individual rights come from God and that government exists only to protect those rights, not to infringe on them. I've got their individual rights ...

Where have you been? We all know that rights are bestowed upon us by our government, which we all serve! That way, government can do what it will, whenever it suits our masters!

What government gives, government can take away.

Mark

87 posted on 05/11/2005 8:11:56 PM PDT by MarkL (I've got a fever, and the only prescription is MORE COWBELL!!!)
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To: Dan from Michigan

Great but did you notice how few of the Freepers on the banglist aren't members? I can understand Freepers on other threads but if someone is going to an "expert" at something, wouldn't you think they would support it so they could continue?

It's laughable where they complain they have to throw the mailings away while others are writing the checks.


88 posted on 05/11/2005 8:14:28 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Vote a Straight Republican Ballot. Rid the country of dems. NRA)
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To: sourcery

bttt


89 posted on 05/11/2005 8:16:56 PM PDT by I got the rope
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To: Shooter 2.5
I'm just waiting for the "NRA caves" posts.......
90 posted on 05/11/2005 8:18:38 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("My guvnor don't got the answer")
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To: Beelzebubba
Agreed, except that a semi-auto battle rifle is much more useful that a sniper rifle. An army of snipers (and we all fancy ourselves such) is no more useful than a team of quarterbacks.

Against whom? If you are suggesting a toe to toe running gun battle by a few patriots against government forces...I think that's suicidal. They will use the "big gun," the radio, to call in helicopters and any other supporting arms as required. Look at the current battle in western Iraq between very well armed Islamic fighters and the USMC as an example.

The bolt action rifle which maximizes range and is used for ONE SHOT at least gives a patriot a chance to escape the soon-arriving Quick Reaction Force.

91 posted on 05/11/2005 8:19:23 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: glock rocks

Oleg Volk is a national treasure!
The NRA should give him their highest award for his RKBA artwork.


92 posted on 05/11/2005 8:22:57 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

1/3 on the computer and 2/3 still in my brain.
Sigh.


93 posted on 05/11/2005 8:23:47 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; patton
Thanks for the ping, Tonk.

This is an extremely interesting and important case, for IMHO, (no I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a client of one, and mrsgwmore works in the justice system ;-) this case could be the one "biggie" that makes it to SCOTUS.

We RKBA activists have been waiting a long time for a test case that the Supremes would touch, and this looks like it might be a good one. The only problem I see, at this point, is the appeal after appeal before it actually gets there (Similar to Terri Schiavo) with the outcome already preordained by the tame Judgenfuherer. Both NY and NJ are totally controlled by liberal gun grabbers, who would like nothing better than to confiscate all one's firearms, and a wrong move at this point, with a wrong decision could be disastrous.

That being said, we are back to the stinking "State's Rights BS all over again, and what trumps what. IMHO, I believe, (and what patriot and conservative doesn't) that the 2A, is totally unambiguous in it's wording, and all the BS concerning commas, "well-regulated" etc/. os simply verbiage of the time in which the amendment was first written, and still holds true today.

There has been plenty of precedent in case law for striking down nuisance lawsuits against firaarm manufacturers for injuries inflicted by criminal use of their lawfully manufactured, highly regulated product. I see no difference here, The only change is that the suit was in the Peoples Demokratik Republik of New York, with it's Politikal Kommisars Xlintoon and Schumer, we all KNOW where they stand.

Patton, allow me to join in, like you, I also am the holder of a "Far More Than TS". and although now retired, disabled, still want to join in this scrap. Let me know what I can do to help out, I'.m here 24/7...

Since I reside "somewhere in a red zone deep in a secret location in the blue state of PA, at least I still have some rights here, but those could be gone at a moment's notice. We can't ever cease our vigilance, for even one microsecond.

Again, thanks much for the pings, this was an extremely important post, and worth reading and book-marking.

Keep the Faith for Freedom!!

Greg

94 posted on 05/11/2005 8:29:13 PM PDT by gwmoore (As the manual for the Russian Nagant revolver states: "Target Practice:'At the Deserter, FIRE' '')
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To: PzGr43
Hi All-

Excellent and cogent analysis by PzGr43 above. That is just how the statists will try to do it.

B-U-M-P!

~ Blue Jays ~

95 posted on 05/11/2005 8:32:27 PM PDT by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: gwmoore

If dan, tonk or you know who is representing him - I have some cash hidden away for a rainy day...


96 posted on 05/11/2005 8:32:50 PM PDT by patton ("Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write.")
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

NY! what a load if malarky!
This is the same state that confiscated weapons from law abiding citizens.
They essentially said turn them in or move out of state!

Freakin tyrants. What part of "shall not be infringed" dont they understand?


97 posted on 05/11/2005 8:49:48 PM PDT by mylife (The roar of the masses could be farts)
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To: Travis McGee
Volk's work is from the heart and soul. I usually try to make his awesome pictures a link to his Self-Defense: A Basic Human Right website. I goofed... so here's another, which is a link...

molon labe

98 posted on 05/11/2005 8:51:52 PM PDT by glock rocks (For the love of all that's good and decent, don't try this at home)
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To: Smartass

Thanks for the ping!


99 posted on 05/11/2005 9:11:59 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: de Buillion

Then I think you're more than covered.

LOL...


100 posted on 05/11/2005 9:19:06 PM PDT by Dr.Zoidberg (This tagline brought to you by Islam. Islam, only the best of the 12th century for you and yours.)
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