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Gun Safety 101 Sparks Debate (in Arizona Schools)
FoxNews ^ | May 25, 2005 | FoxNews

Posted on 05/24/2005 10:42:04 PM PDT by FairOpinion

Arizona schools have added a fourth "R" to reading, writing and arithmetic — rifles.

Students who choose to enroll in this new course learn the safe way to handle a gun and earn one credit — the equivalent to ceramics or photography electives. Critics are gunning the debate; they say handing teenagers loaded weapons equals trouble.

“We learn life skills, like when we miss [a shot], not to get mad. You learn a lot of cooperation with your team members,” said student Kim Peters.

And many parents argue they would rather their children learn how to handle a gun and be safe, than be sorry.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Arizona
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; curriculum; gunsafety; schools
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To: SittinYonder
If anything, American History and Civics need to return in full force to the public schools. The pinko curriculum in today's schools and the teachers that often teach it are separate considerations. The public schools were originally thought of as places where a nation of immigrants could all learn of our culture, language, ideals and way of life. We desperately need to return to that mission instead of instill multi-cultural crap and creating more divisions in society. That is, and will continue to be, a battleground. In the meantime, I advocate getting your kids out of the publik skoolz in order to diminish their strength, budget and power and perhaps most importantly to break the NEA.

Seems to me that firearms training forced on the schools will foster an atmosphere contrary to their usual pap and create a strong counter line to the indoctrination the students get in all their other classes. How can one murder the Constitutional rights and them teach firearm safety? How can a curriculum argue against self-determination and them teach them the very basis on which it obtains and preserved in this world? It is clear to me that the reason that firearms training is NOT in schools today is the very reason that we need to return to it as a part of our educational training. There are reasons the left hates this sort of thing, you know...
51 posted on 05/25/2005 5:11:26 AM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Fun Fact: Did you know that NEWSWEEK has killed more people than Ted Kennedy's Oldsmobile?)
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To: Andrew LB
"I'm a total Nazi when it comes to gun safety. I really lay down the law when i bring people to the range with me just like my father did when i was young."

I'm a total Nazi when it comes to standard English and grammar. I really lay down the law when I have to read substandard communication, just like my father did when I was young.
52 posted on 05/25/2005 5:13:54 AM PDT by School of Rational Thought (Republican - The thinking people's party)
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To: papertyger
This is the fundamental flaw with your argument. Like proving a negative, you can't teach anyone NOT to do something: only TO do something.

I imagine I could teach you NOT to put your hand in boiling water.

If you want to find a fundamental flaw with the argument that parents and not schools should be teaching gun safety, then do it on somebody else's time. It's absurd to turn your responsibilities over to the schools, and that's all I have to say about it.

53 posted on 05/25/2005 6:27:31 AM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: SittinYonder
What children are getting "no instruction" in gun safety?

Are you deliberately "playing ostritch" on us?

There are hundreds of PC school districts who won't even allow the NRA to visit and present their excellent (and effective) "Eddie Eagle" gun safety program: -- simply because it is presented by the "eeeevil NRA Gun Lobby":

Q: What is the Eddie Eagle Program?

A: The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program is a gun accident prevention program for children in pre-kindergarten through third grade. Using instructional materials including workbooks, an animated video, and student reward stickers, the program's safety mascot, Eddie Eagle, teaches children that if they find a gun in an unsupervised situation, they should:

STOP! Don't Touch. Leave the Area. Tell an Adult.

BTW, that last line is the course content. That's it.

BTW, "Eddie Eagle" is not for our own kids -- for whom we rightly assume the responsibility of teaching gun safety. It is for the millions of kids who have liberal parents, who, themselves are fearful and ignorant of firearms and firearm safety ...kids who might just manage to run across an unsecured firearm when they are in your home...

Would you keep "Eddie Eagle" out of your kids' school?


54 posted on 05/25/2005 6:27:35 AM PDT by TXnMA (ATTN, ACLU & NAACP: There's no constitutionally protected right to NOT be offended -- Shove It!)
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To: TXnMA

This isn't the Eddie Eagle program.


55 posted on 05/25/2005 6:28:20 AM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: WorkingClassFilth

Clearly you're not satisfied with the curriculum in schools. Why do you think, if they can't teach history without a liberal revisionist slant, that they'll be able to teach firearms to your satisfaction?


56 posted on 05/25/2005 6:30:42 AM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: c-b 1

Hope your brother gave that grandchild a quick re-education, with an opportunity to go out to the range and plink a little with a .22 . . .


57 posted on 05/25/2005 6:33:14 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: SittinYonder

Hopefully the success the children have will inspire them to work harder on the "READIN, WRITIN, and ARITHMETHIC".


58 posted on 05/25/2005 6:34:27 AM PDT by JOE43270 (JOE43270 America voted and said we are One Nation Under God with Liberty and Justice for All.)
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To: SittinYonder

I'm not satisfied - I homeschool. Abandoning the publik skoolz to their own demise isn't the path either. IMO, all sources of pressure should be brought to bear: legislative, homeschool choice, local control of curriculum, etc.

In the case of firearms training, you can bet your bottom dollar that it wouldn't taught by yer average educator. The schools would be so paranoid about lawsuits that it would likely be staffed and run by complete professionals. At the least, people who actually know something.

More than the mechanics of operating the course, however, is the symbolic and ideological benefit of such curriculum. Clearly, this is a turd on the alter of leftist idealism. As I stated before, this single initiative would undermine all sorts of left-think propositions that are taught K-12.


59 posted on 05/25/2005 6:37:52 AM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Fun Fact: Did you know that NEWSWEEK has killed more people than Ted Kennedy's Oldsmobile?)
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To: SittinYonder
This isn't the Eddie Eagle program.

It IS a hell of a lot better than nothing.

60 posted on 05/25/2005 6:40:08 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Never underestimate the will of the downtrodden to lie flatter.)
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To: SittinYonder
You avoided my question -- as you have been avoiding the issue of the danger of guns and curious, but un-taught, kids all along.

The principles taught in "Eddie Eagle" are a vital starting point for kids who have yet to receive safe handling instruction -- and should be a basic part of education -- public and private.

Once more:

Would you keep "Eddie Eagle" out of your kids' school?


61 posted on 05/25/2005 6:41:38 AM PDT by TXnMA (ATTN, ACLU & NAACP: There's no constitutionally protected right to NOT be offended -- Shove It!)
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To: FairOpinion
Thanks for posting this FairOpinion!

This should be offered in EVERY school, hell, we had rifle teams when I was in High School (back in the "old days" of the very early '60s). The funny thing is, though, that WE didn't need the courses, because we had been indoctrinated since we were too young to remember about firearms handling and safety.

I, for one, wasn't even allowed to point a cap pistol at anyone, or a cork rifle, and had to "treat them as if they were loaded" all the time. Of course, when I was slightly older, I received a .22, and so forth, and the education into firearms safety, and then into hunting and the safety requirements for that was seamless.

It's a funny thing, when you see the story written the way it is, and how the idiot "health" people weigh in, besides which, the story appears alongside another teaser about "5th grader takes gun from pre-schooler", one can see the institutional knee jerk to any positive firearms story. That being said, I do wish them well, and hope the practice spreads. Maybe, just maybe, that if these courses in firearms safety catch on, then some of the "Zero tolerance" about firearms will go away ("finding" a firearm in the trunk of a car in the school's parking lot, thereby causing the intervention of SWAT, the Bomb Squad, Homeland Security, the MIB, etc etc, and the expulsion and possible incarceration of the otherwise innocent student, who was either going hunting or to target practice after he left the "indoctrination center")....Crap, back in said early 1960;s we used to have said firearms in car trunks all the time, and show them off to each other in the parking lot..no biggie..it was also no biggie to see a bunch of teenagers walking down PA 420 to the swamps near Philly airport, there to hunt rats, etc (a very pleasant way to spend any amount of time)...said "yutes" were very heavily armed, indeed, and cars would pass with no comment...try that today....

Ok, enough of the rant.. I do wish this course well, and hope it spreads, I think everyone should be exposed at least to the basics of firearms handling and safety as early as possible, and also to the meaning of the 2A. I believe that if things went this way, well, you wouldn't see the stories you see...

Keep The Faith For Freedom

Greg

62 posted on 05/25/2005 6:57:12 AM PDT by gwmoore (As the manual for the Russian Nagant revolver states: "Target Practice:'At the Deserter, FIRE' '')
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To: SittinYonder
{ { { Chirp! } } }

{ { { Chirp! } } }


63 posted on 05/25/2005 7:12:56 AM PDT by TXnMA (ATTN, ACLU & NAACP: There's no constitutionally protected right to NOT be offended -- Shove It!)
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To: SittinYonder
My brother immediately started teaching them gun safety.

The point I was trying to make is that the anti-gun propaganda being taught in the schools is all many kids are ever going to hear, when they reach voting age they will run to the polls to vote for any gun grabber that promises to keep them safe from evil guns. You may not agree with teaching gun safety in the government shcools, but I belive it is necessary to counter the anti-gun propaganda in order to preserve RKBA for future generations.

64 posted on 05/25/2005 8:28:37 AM PDT by c-b 1
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To: SittinYonder
I imagine I could teach you NOT to put your hand in boiling water.

How about a lesson in NOT drinking poison?

It's real obvious you lack the self-confidence to admit making an error. You keep singing this "turning responsibility over to the schools" song to give yourself a philosophical position from which you can fight against acknowledging you've painted yourself into a corner.

Fine...just declare victory, and run away.

Oh! Sorry. I see from you last sentence you already have!

65 posted on 05/25/2005 1:18:34 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: FairOpinion

Follow it up with handgun safety and marksmanship...


66 posted on 05/25/2005 1:19:42 PM PDT by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: TXnMA

I didn't avoid your question. This is not the Eddie Eagle program. I think that's a good program and of course I wouldn't "keep it out of my child's school." I remain opposed to the schools giving instruction in firearms.


67 posted on 05/25/2005 2:30:01 PM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: c-b 1
You may not agree with teaching gun safety in the government shcools, but I belive it is necessary to counter the anti-gun propaganda in order to preserve RKBA for future generations.

Of course it is. But are the schools the ones we want to "counter the anti-gun propaganda"?

As I've said a dozen times, I see this as no different than sex ed. My question and my concern is: What will the schools be teaching? Why would anyone think it's a good thing to have the government getting involved in teaching our children about guns? These very same schools, as you yourself said, foster these attitudes about seizing guns. So why would you trust them to develop a responsible curriculum that will reinforce a knowledge of RKBA?

I saw nothing in this Fox story that suggests to me that there will be a pro-Second Amendment slant to this class.

68 posted on 05/25/2005 2:36:38 PM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: papertyger

What corner have I painted myself into and what makes you think I've made an error? Understanding there are exceptions, in general, when history teachers teach the Constitution or the founding of this country to your children, are you satisfied with the lesson? Do you agree with the slant they've put on it? What slant are the instructors going to put on this class? I don't trust the schools because I believe the evidence is clear that, as institutions, they are overrun with socialists and communists and are doing everything they can to spread their ideology to my children.

Gun safety or firearms training in public schools, IMO, is just another attempt to erode the Second Amendment (or will become so).

Maybe you're more trusting in the government than I am, maybe you don't have kids in government schools. But that doesn't mean I've painted myself into a corner, and not turning over responsibility for my children isn't "singing a song."

You will not convince me that this is a good idea. Clearly I won't persuade you that it's a bad idea. So I'll teach my kids gun safety and you can do what you like.


69 posted on 05/25/2005 2:49:13 PM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: SittinYonder
All three of my children (and my wife) are licensed to carry -- as am I. My son just retired from the Army. He was "Expert" qualified in almost everything in the Army inventory that goes, "Boom!" -- from TOW and 81mm mortar down to the 9mm. I taught them all safe gun handling and then I taught them to shoot -- in that order.

I'm currrently keeping my front end loader busy -- building backstop berms on my own (200 meter) private range -- and have my granddchildren well into airgun training. Soon the eldest (8 yrs) will progress to single-shot .22.

Most of us on this thread need not be concerned about what the government schools will teach our kids (or grandkids) -- because we are doing our own jobs properly.

However, incidents like this Fox News story:

Fifth Grader Takes Gun From Pre-Schooler

Wednesday, May 18, 2005

AUSTIN, Texas — A pre-kindergarten student brought a handgun to school, where it was seized by a fifth-grader and turned over to the principal, school district officials said Tuesday.

scares the ...[whatever]... out of me! (At least I know that my 5th-graders would have known to maintain trigger-finger discipline and keep the muzzle in a safe direction while taking it to authorities -- even if they didn't know how to safe and unload that particular weapon...)

So, I am convinced that it is in our best interest that other kids -- not so fortunate as ours -- get firearms familiarization and safety training including and beyond the "Eddie Eagle" mantra when they are old enough to handle firearms responsibly.

I, for one, would insist that any training done in our schools be done by NRA-certified instructors. (That should also ensure that firearms are presented from a strong RKBA viewpoint.)

70 posted on 05/25/2005 8:20:40 PM PDT by TXnMA (ATTN, ACLU & NAACP: There's no constitutionally protected right to NOT be offended -- Shove It!)
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To: Hardastarboard

You forgot one.

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET


71 posted on 05/26/2005 5:08:09 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Vote a Straight Republican Ballot. Rid the country of dems. NRA)
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To: TXnMA

I understand the desire to give kids familiarization with gun safety through the Eddie Eagle program - it's the only one of its kind that I know of. I understand being worried about what other parents are or are not teaching their children about guns. But as I keep saying, I don't trust the schools to provide education about guns.

Education today is marked by two overriding factors: a liberal to communist slant and lowered expectations. I'm sure that in the first two or five years, this program would be a "good" program. But give it time and I think it would become a problem the same way that sex ed and character ed have. I believe they would teach things about guns that are contrary to what I believe and what the Constitution says. And worse, I believe that when it becomes common place there would be a lowering of standards, as there has been in all things of government education, that would lead to serious safety concerns.

Someone accused me of have an expectation of failure. When it comes to government schools, I do have an expectation of failure. That's why every day I combat the schools when my kids get home by teaching or reteaching them myself. When they reach the sixth grade, there is a very good military school where they will attend. Until then, I'm fighting an uphill battle against the school that is trying to turn my sons into little communist girls.

Schools need to stop adding programs and start doing away with them. They need to get back to teaching the basics, math, science, English, Spanish (because our kids are going to have to compete), history and civics. Throw in some PE and some music/art and you've got a full day.

I think Eddie Eagle is fine and it's unfortunate the program isn't in all schools, but it's fine because it's the NRA and not the school system.

Those on this board who think this is a good thing may be right, but they have a faith and confidence in government schools that I will never have.


72 posted on 05/26/2005 5:55:52 AM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: TXnMA
Sorry to belabor the point, but I wanted to respond to this, too:

I, for one, would insist that any training done in our schools be done by NRA-certified instructors. (That should also ensure that firearms are presented from a strong RKBA viewpoint.)

Do you honestly believe that if a class with a strong RKBA viewpoint were in the public schools it wouldn't fall prey to a lawsuit by some leftist group? Don't you think the Brady Campaign or some other similar group would be all over this thing? We know how the leftist groups work, we know how the leftist schools operate, why would we expect them to act differently to a class giving firearms instruction in government schools?

73 posted on 05/26/2005 6:04:30 AM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: WorkingClassFilth
More than the mechanics of operating the course, however, is the symbolic and ideological benefit of such curriculum. Clearly, this is a turd on the alter of leftist idealism. As I stated before, this single initiative would undermine all sorts of left-think propositions that are taught K-12

I disagree with you, and you can see why in my other posts, but in short I think that rather than the class changing the schools the schools would corrupt the class.

74 posted on 05/26/2005 6:08:08 AM PDT by SittinYonder (Tancredo and I wanna know what you believe)
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To: SittinYonder

I don't think the class is going to change the schools, but it certainly would add considerable counter-weight. As I said before, ain't no way some leftist schmuck will be tasked with arming the youths. They'd probably have it taught by a whole phalanx of lawyers and certified experts. In any event, it would surely put more stress in a crumbling system.


75 posted on 05/26/2005 7:04:10 AM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Fun Fact: Did you know that NEWSWEEK has killed more people than Ted Kennedy's Oldsmobile?)
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To: FairOpinion

How come if you teach a child to handle a gun safely and marksmanship skills the liberals claim that you are teaching them to be murderers, but when you give out condoms, promote homosexuality and "rainbow parties" and fisting and abortion on demand, you aren't promoting sex among children but just giveing them "necessary life skills"?


76 posted on 05/29/2005 8:24:46 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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