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Repeal the Seventeenth Amendment
May 17, 2005 | Thomas J. DiLorenzo

Posted on 05/30/2005 5:58:31 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis

Repeal the Seventeenth Amendment by Thomas J. DiLorenzo May 17, 2005

Every once in a blue moon someone in Congress (usually Congressman Ron Paul of Texas) proposes a law or resolution that would actually improve the prospects for human liberty and prosperity. It’s rare, but not nonexistent. One such case is Senate Joint Resolution 35, introduced into the U.S. Senate on April 28, 2004, which was recently brought to my attention by Laurence Vance.

S.J. Res. 35 reads: "Resolved . . . . The seventeenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed." That’s Section 1. Section 2 reads that "The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the legislature thereof, for six years . . ."

This was the original design of the founding fathers; U.S. senators were not directly elected by the voting public until 1914. Thus, S.J. Res. 35 proposes a return to founding principles and is therefore a most revolutionary idea. A good overview of the history of the Seventeenth Amendment is Ralph A. Rossum’s book, Federalism, the Supreme Court, and the Seventeenth Amendment. Rossum correctly points out that the system of federalism or "divided sovereignty" that the founding fathers created with the Constitution was never intended to be enforced by the Supreme Court alone. Congress, the president, and most importantly, the citizens of the states, were also to have an equal say on constitutional matters.

The citizens of the states were to be represented by their state legislatures. As Roger Sherman wrote in a letter to John Adams: "The senators, being . . . dependent on [state legislatures] for reelection, will be vigilant in supporting their rights against infringement by the legislative or executive of the United States."

Rossum also quotes Hamilton as saying that the election of senators by state legislatures would be an "absolute safeguard" against federal tyranny. George Mason believed that the appointment of senators by state legislatures would give the citizens of the states "some means of defending themselves against encroachments of the National Government."

Fisher Ames thought of U.S. senators as "ambassadors of the states," whereas Madison, in Federalist #62, wrote that "The appointment of senators by state legislatures gives to state governments such an agency in the formation of the federal government, as must secure the authority of the former." Moreover, said Madison, the mere "enumeration of [federal] powers" in the Constitution would never be sufficient to restrain the tyrannical proclivities of the central state, and were mere "parchment barriers" to tyranny. Structural arrangements, such as the appointment of senators by state legislatures, were necessary.

State legislatures did not hesitate to instruct U.S. senators on how to vote. In fact, the very first instruction that was given to them was to meet in public! The Virginia and Kentucky Resolves of 1798 (see William Watkins, Reclaiming the American Revolution) were the work of state legislatures that instructed their senators to oppose the Sedition Act, which essentially made it illegal to criticize the federal government.

State legislatures were instrumental in Andrew Jackson’s famous battle with the Bank of the United States (BUS), which ended with the Bank being de-funded and replaced by the Independent Treasury System and the era of "free banking" (1842–1862). State legislatures throughout the U.S. instructed their senators to oppose the BUS in the senate. Senator Pelog Sprague of Maine was forced to resign in 1835 after ignoring his legislature’s instructions to vote against the Bank. The U.S. Senate voted to censure President Andrew Jackson for opposing the BUS, but the states responded by forcing seven other senators to resign for taking part in that vote. (It seems that it’s not only twenty-first century Republicans who run for office by calling Washington, D.C. a cesspool, and then thinking of it as more like a hot tub once they get there).

The founding fathers understood that it would never be in the Supreme Court’s self-interest to protect states’ rights. Rossum quotes the anti-federalist writer "Brutus" on this point:

It would never be in the self-interest of the Court to strike down federal laws trenching on the inviolable and residuary sovereignty of the states, because every extension of power of the general legislature, as well as of the judicial powers, will increase the powers of the courts.

"Brutus’ also pointed out that with increased powers of the courts would likely come increased compensation for federal judges.

The adoption of the Seventeenth Amendment in 1913 (along with the income tax and the Fed) was a result of the deification of "democracy" that began with the Union victory in the War to Prevent Southern Independence. The war was fought, said Lincoln at Gettysburg, so that "government of the people, by the people, for the people" should not perish from the earth. This of course was absurd nonsense, but Lincoln’s silver-tongued rhetoric was apparently persuasive enough to those residing north of the Mason-Dixon line.

The direct election of senators was said to be more democratic, and therefore would reduce, if not end, corruption. There was a good bit of corruption involved in the election of senators, but the source of the corruption was: democracy!

As Rossum recounts, in 1866 a new federal law was passed that mandated for the first time how the states were to appoint senators. First, a voice vote would be taken in each house. If there was no overwhelming choice, then a concurrent vote would be taken. This process revealed information about voting preferences to minority cliques within the legislatures, who then knew who they had to support or oppose. The end result was frequent gridlocks (71 from 1885 to 1912 alone). The deadlocks were inevitably ended by bribery. Thus "democracy, in the form of the 1866 law, led to the bribery, so that the natural "cure" for the problem was: More democracy!

The Seventeenth Amendment was one of the last nails to be pounded into the coffin of federalism in America. The citizens of the states, through their state legislators, could no longer place any roadblocks whatsoever in the way of federal power. The Sixteenth Amendment, which enacted the income tax in the same year, implicitly assumed that the federal government lays claim to all income, and that citizens would be allowed to keep whatever their rulers in Washington, D.C. decided they could keep by setting the tax rates. From that point on, the states were only mere appendages or franchises of the central government.

The federal government finally became a pure monopoly and citizen sovereignty became a dead letter. Further arming itself with the powers of legal counterfeiting (the Fed) in the same year, the federal government could ignore the wishes of great majority of the citizens with reckless and disastrous abandon, as it did with its entry into World War I just a few years later.

If Americans ever again become interested in living in a free society, one of their first orders of business should be the repeal of the Seventeenth Amendment.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 10thamendment; 17thamendment; 1913; constitution; senate; seventeenthamendment; tax; taxes
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1 posted on 05/30/2005 5:58:32 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis
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To: Remember_Salamis
The US had many of the same problems with Senators before the 17th that it had after the 17th. Neither the amendment nor its repeal are all that meaningful.

It has to do with the sort of people who strive for election to the Senate, and it doesn't really matter if there are 100 voters or 10,000,000!

The solution is to change the nature of the job.

I've proposed that we set aside certain elective jobs under the condition that you get elected one time only, but you get to steal or graft all that you can get away with, and at the end of your term you are taken out and publicly executed on the steps of Congress.

Being a US Senator would seem to be a suitible candidate for this process. Still, I think we'd still end up with the same guys in the Senate that we have now.

2 posted on 05/30/2005 6:04:55 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Remember_Salamis

Why no link?


3 posted on 05/30/2005 6:08:04 PM PDT by BCrago66
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To: muawiyah; All

You totally miss the point. The 17th Amendment ABOLISHED the UNITED STATES SENATE! We now have two Houses of Representatives, both directly elected and subject to the pupulism of the masses.

The Senate was intended to represent the rights and interests of states at the national level. Nothing more, nothing less. That is now gone.

The states, and their respective legislatures, no longer have direct representation at the federal level. The only power legislatures now have is to gerrymander congressional districts.

To put it in historical perspestive, the seventeenth amendment is akin to Cesar emasculating the Roman Senate.

Here's an article by Bruce Bartlett in NRO from a year ago:




Repeal the 17th Amendment
It’s where big government begins.
May 12th, 2004



There is only one time when a U.S. senator is really free to speak the truth — when he’s announced his retirement. Since he no longer has to worry about raising money, pandering to voters, or retaliation from his colleagues, he can say what he really thinks about issues no other member of the Senate will discuss. For this reason, it is worth listening to Sen. Zell Miller, Democrat of Georgia, who recently spoke a truth that no senator except a retiring one would dare say.


On April 28, Sen. Miller, the last genuinely conservative Democrat we will likely ever see in the Senate, laid the blame for what ails that august body at the door of the 17th amendment to the Constitution. This is the provision that provides for the popular election of senators.

Few people today know that the Founding Fathers never intended for senators to be popularly elected. The Constitution originally provided that senators would be chosen by state legislatures. The purpose was to provide the states — as states — an institutional role in the federal government. In effect, senators were to function as ambassadors from the states, which were expected to retain a large degree of sovereignty even after ratification of the Constitution, thereby ensuring that their rights would be protected in a federal system.

The role of senators as representatives of the states was assured by a procedure, now forgotten, whereby states would “instruct” their senators how to vote on particular issues. Such instructions were not conveyed to members of the House of Representatives because they have always been popularly elected and are not expected to speak for their states, but only for their constituents.

When senators represented states as states, rather than being super House members as they are now, they zealously protected states’ rights. This term became discredited during the civil-rights struggle of the 1960s as a code word for racism — allowing Southern states to resist national pressure to integrate. But clearly this is an aberration. States obviously have interests that may conflict with federal priorities on a wide variety of issues that defy easy ideological classification. Many states, for example, would probably enact more liberal laws relating to the environment, health, and business regulation if allowed by Washington.

Two factors led to enactment of the 17th amendment. First was the problem that many state legislatures deadlocked on their selections for the Senate. The upper house and the lower house could not agree on a choice, or it was prohibitively difficult for one candidate to get an absolute majority in each house (as opposed to a plurality), which was required by federal law. Some states went without representation in the Senate for years as a consequence.

The second problem involved a perception that the election of senators by state legislatures made them more susceptible to corruption by special interests. The Hearst newspapers were a major force arguing this point in the early 1900s.

The pressure of public opinion eventually forced the Senate to approve a constitutional amendment changing the election of senators to our current system of the popular vote. The fact that many states (such as Oregon) had already adopted a system whereby legislatures were required to choose senators selected by popular vote was ignored.

The 17th amendment was ratified in 1913. It is no coincidence that the sharp rise in the size and power of the federal government starts in this year (the 16th amendment, establishing a federal income tax, ratified the same year, was also important). As George Mason University law professor Todd Zywicki has noted, prior to the 17th amendment, senators resisted delegating power to Washington in order to keep it at the state and local level. “As a result, the long term size of the federal government remained fairly stable during the pre-Seventeenth Amendment era,” he wrote.

Prof. Zywicki also finds little evidence of corruption in the Senate that can be traced to the pre-1913 electoral system. By contrast, there is much evidence that the post-1913 system has been deeply corruptive. As Sen. Miller put it, “Direct elections of Senators … allowed Washington’s special interests to call the shots, whether it is filling judicial vacancies, passing laws, or issuing regulations.”

Sen. Miller also lays much of the blame for the current impasse on confirming federal judges at the door of the 17th amendment. Consequently, on April 28 he introduced S.J.Res. 35 in order to repeal that provision of the Constitution.

Over the years, a number of legal scholars have called for the repeal of the 17th amendment. An excellent summary of their arguments appears in Ralph Rossum's book, Federalism, the Supreme Court and the Seventeenth Amendment. They should at least get a hearing before Zell Miller departs the Senate at the end of this year.

— Bruce Bartlett is senior fellow for the National Center for Policy Analysis. Write to him here.


4 posted on 05/30/2005 6:12:44 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: muawiyah
I've proposed that we set aside certain elective jobs under the condition that you get elected one time only, but you get to steal or graft all that you can get away with, and at the end of your term you are taken out and publicly executed on the steps of Congress.

Oh that is so very wrong, and you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting it.

The bloodstains would take months and months to come out of the steps. Do it on the grass instead.

5 posted on 05/30/2005 6:14:17 PM PDT by savedbygrace ("No Monday morning quarterback has ever led a team to victory" GW Bush)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Being from Massachusetts, that is one terrifying thought.

The "citizens" here gave the nation Kerry and Kennedy, I shudder to think of who the inbred elite nitwits in our legislature would deliver.
6 posted on 05/30/2005 6:14:21 PM PDT by mmercier (evils still worse we have known)
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To: mmercier

You shudder to think what the system envisioned by the Founding Fathers would deliver?

One point you're missing is that the State Legislatures are far less important than they were pre-17th. If it was repealed, the makeup of the legislatures would be different. Remember, there was a time in American history when being a state senator was more important than being a congressman.


7 posted on 05/30/2005 6:18:19 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: Remember_Salamis
The manner of representation is different in the House and the Senate.

If you fail to notice that, you fail to notice the fundamental difference between the two bodies, of course.

If you have a legislature vote for a Senator, the only difference between that and having everybody in the state vote for a Senator is the number of voters!

We have the same issue when it comes to appointing or electing judges. Pretty much the same sort of people end up being judges, but the number of folks voting is different.

Personally, I prefer as broad a base as possible in the electorate for every office.

BTW, I think you are raising this meaningless objection simply because I pointed to the problem ~ the poor quality and character of Senators ~ and the solution ~ one term and then execution.

Playing around with the number of voters isn't going to address quality and character and you know it.

8 posted on 05/30/2005 6:18:37 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Remember_Salamis

So what is it that we the Sheeple can do to help abolish the 17th Amendment? Our senators surely wouldnt stand for it. They would lose all of their money and actually have to represent an institution.


9 posted on 05/30/2005 6:19:43 PM PDT by IronChefSakai (Life, Liberty, and Limited Government!)
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To: savedbygrace

Well, the grass, or maybe down on the blacktop near a drain. That's where the big dogs park you know.


10 posted on 05/30/2005 6:19:46 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: mmercier

how could it get any worsr ?
""we"" ?? elected hillary and schumer.


11 posted on 05/30/2005 6:20:42 PM PDT by catroina54
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To: IronChefSakai

Focus all efforts on it? IF the 17th was repealed, all other reform efforst would fall into place: judges, taxes, abortion, etc.


12 posted on 05/30/2005 6:22:14 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: Remember_Salamis

I'm with you. I would prefer to see the 17th abolished. I think it would change the nature of Congress fundamentally.


13 posted on 05/30/2005 6:22:35 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: muawiyah

Actually, the Legislatures were able to recall senators who disobeyed the state legislatures. If the same system were still in place, Republican Sen. Lindsay Graham would have been recalled last week for his little filibuster fiasco.


14 posted on 05/30/2005 6:23:58 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: Remember_Salamis

I have long believed that returning some veto power to state governments via the US Senate would be the best counter-balance to the increasingly totalitarian central government.

It is an idea whose time has returned.


15 posted on 05/30/2005 6:24:25 PM PDT by hlmencken3 ("...politics is a religion substitute for liberals and they can't stand the competition")
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To: muawiyah

If senators don't tow the line of the legislature, they are recalled.


16 posted on 05/30/2005 6:26:17 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: mmercier
The "citizens" here gave the nation Kerry and Kennedy, I shudder to think of who the inbred elite nitwits in our legislature would deliver

If we were under the old system, Kevin White and Billy Bulger would be senators for life. - tom

17 posted on 05/30/2005 6:26:38 PM PDT by Capt. Tom (Don't confuse the Bushies with the dumb Republicans - Capt. Tom)
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To: Remember_Salamis
No, Senators who didn't tow the line of the legislature were not "re-elected. They got a 6 year term, PERIOD!

If you want "recall" you are going to have to add that to the Constitution!

18 posted on 05/30/2005 6:28:04 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Remember_Salamis

Constitutional bump.


19 posted on 05/30/2005 6:29:29 PM PDT by lodwick (Integrity has no need of rules. Albert Camus)
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To: muawiyah

Plus the people in flyover parts of the states had a larger voice you didn't like the people in the senate your local vote for state rep counted.


20 posted on 05/30/2005 6:30:22 PM PDT by CONSERVE
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To: Remember_Salamis; Jim Robinson
Bravo!

Indeed, there were many problems with the selection and maintenance of Senators prior to the ratification of the 17th... most of them caused by the press playing king maker and power broker both overtly and covertly.

Now a Senator need only casually visits the state he lays claim to, and has no reason to act in its behalf, except to buy votes.

It would be difficult to select a section of the Federal Government that has caused more physical, financial, emotional, or proprietary harm to the Citizens and the States, than the U.S. Senate over the last 100 years.

21 posted on 05/30/2005 6:30:34 PM PDT by FreedomFarmer (Socialism is not an ideology, it is a disease. Eliminate the vectors.)
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To: CONSERVE

Are you referring to Montana and Wyoming?


22 posted on 05/30/2005 6:31:42 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: muawiyah; sheltonmac; stainlessbanner
Actually DiLorenzo has it right. There would be problems but not at the level we currently have.

It has everything to do with th number of voters. One massive change would be that the US Senate would not see fit to stick its nose into the affairs of the separate and sovereign states as they would not be pandering for votes from the illiterate and ignorant who base their entire decision on what government should do purely on emotion.

They would instead return to the business of this nation of states as a whole. Would there still be issues of theft or grifting? Of course, but just because Senators would still see some kickbacks that doesn't mean they should also see the immediate gratification of getting calls from sheep voters promising to send them to Congress again.

As the Senate is currently filled with 101 political hacks, an immediate plus is that our airwaves, radio and television, wouldn't be filled every four to six years (depending on the cycle in your state) with empty promises from mediocre politicians who couldn't survive in private industry

The next step to return to a Constitutional Republic would be to drop popular election of the President

DiLorenzo bump

23 posted on 05/30/2005 6:32:05 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Remember_Salamis
The Senate was intended to represent the rights and interests of states at the national level. Nothing more, nothing less. That is now gone.

This also laid the foundation for SCOTUS to rule that state senates had to be apportioned "one man, one vote" also, thus abolishing the one or two state senators/county as an upper chamber, at least in California. It totally decimated the influence and balance of rural counties in state legislatures.

24 posted on 05/30/2005 6:32:11 PM PDT by ApplegateRanch
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To: billbears

The state legislatures currently abound with the "illiterate and ignorant". Take the Virginia legislature for an example ~ Gag gag gag gag gag gag gag!!!! gag gag gag


25 posted on 05/30/2005 6:33:38 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Capt. Tom
>> If we were under the old system, Kevin White and Billy Bulger would be senators for life. - tom


We are paying Bulger more than we are paying Kerry and Kennedy combined, and all he has to do is sit at home and run Whitey's gang.

Your observation is probably correct though.

I don't like this state too much.
26 posted on 05/30/2005 6:34:02 PM PDT by mmercier
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To: hlmencken3

If today's legislatures voted strictly on party lines, the senate would have 42 republicans and 38 democrats. If the 10 split legislatures gave 1 seat to each party, the senate would break down 52-48. Of course, if the legislatures did elect the senators, we would have different legislatures. Most likely we would have more conservative legislatures that protected states' rights.


27 posted on 05/30/2005 6:35:31 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: ApplegateRanch
States do not require more than one house. Many would be better served by abolishing the legislature entirely, simply electing a governor, and having him or her contract out the operation to the lowest bidder.

Privatization of government was a way of life in Iceland for many hundreds of years, and they proved it worked. If government illserved the people, they simply bid for services from someone who could do well.

In other states, Massachusetts and New York for example, it really doesn't matter how big the legislature is ~ if they're not already in irons when elected, they soon will be eh?!

28 posted on 05/30/2005 6:36:44 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Since the 17th, I don't understand why there needs to be 2 Senators from every state. Since they are now elected there should be just one.

Get rid of one and you have 50 fewer egos & 100 fewer hands in the public till.

29 posted on 05/30/2005 6:36:51 PM PDT by qam1 (There's been a huge party. All plates and the bottles are empty, all that's left is the bill to pay)
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To: ApplegateRanch; All

Thank you UNRATIFIED 14th Amendment!


30 posted on 05/30/2005 6:38:33 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: muawiyah

No small districts in each individual state get to decide if the senator elected by there state legislator is doing right if not they can get rid of there local state leg and put in a new one. Thereby the small districts have as much say in the senate picks as the large cities who now pick the senators for each state. It works the same as the electoral college.


31 posted on 05/30/2005 6:38:36 PM PDT by CONSERVE
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To: muawiyah

This might work if after being appointed for 6 years - you had to go home - and you could not be reappointed again.

This would eliminate Kennedy cabals - and a lifetime of campaigning.

I would really like to see this. People get one (1) 6-year term - PERIOD!!

This would make the person do their job and not put it off for the next 20 years.

And .. who would appoint them .. the Governor of each state ..?? That would give the Governorships much more control over what the state's representation.

It might have some kinks in it - but I like the idea of appointed senators who I would only have to look at for 6 years.


32 posted on 05/30/2005 6:38:45 PM PDT by CyberAnt (President Bush: "America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth")
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To: Remember_Salamis; muawiyah; BCrago66; mmercier; savedbygrace; Prodigal Son; FreedomFarmer

Since this is such an important amendment that needs repealed, instead of talking about this, why not DO something about it? Here is a link that should take you to the Congress.org website. Use the congressional directory and contact your US Representative and tell them you want it repealed. We gotta start somewhere.

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/dbq/officials/directory/directory.dbq?command=congdir


33 posted on 05/30/2005 6:39:13 PM PDT by IronChefSakai (Life, Liberty, and Limited Government!)
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To: CyberAnt

How about electing the Senators by a committee of 25 people chosen at random.


34 posted on 05/30/2005 6:40:35 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Remember_Salamis

It got ratified. You just don't like how it happened.


35 posted on 05/30/2005 6:41:01 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Remember_Salamis
A chief problem with the direct election of senators is that it was disrupted the voters' relation to the state legislature.

This from DiLorenzo is utter crap:

The adoption of the Seventeenth Amendment in 1913 (along with the income tax and the Fed) was a result of the deification of "democracy" that began with the Union victory in the War to Prevent Southern Independence.
The Fed was a conservative reform, engineered by the most reactionary of Senators, Aldrich of Rhode Island, starting in 1908, and over the feeble attempts by the populist Theodore Roosevelt to guide it. In 1913 Woodrow Wilson signed a Fed Reserve Act that was essentially Aldrich's although Wilson claimed it as his own.

The 16th Amendment was the product of the long SOUTHERN DEMOCRAT program to replace the tariff with the income tax. Ironicaly, its 1909 passage by Congress was a conservative ploy to avoid drastic cuts in the tariff.

DiLorenzo is consistently correct in principle and wrong in history. Amazing.

36 posted on 05/30/2005 6:44:11 PM PDT by nicollo (All economics are politics.)
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To: muawiyah

-- Nebrska has a unicameral legislature, just like the founding fathers intended under the articles of confederation (one Senate/one rep per state). In addition, the nebraska legislature is "nonpartisan".

-- I've read many articles on Icelandic anarcho-capitalism, but I don't think it can be done today. Nocizk, the noted libertarian , actually disproved anarcho-capitalism back in the 1970s. He discovered that the natually arising "natural order" advocated by AnarCaps evolves into government over time.

-- When it comes to legislatures, size DOES matter. In california, state districts contain more people than congressional districts!!!


37 posted on 05/30/2005 6:45:07 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: muawiyah; azhenfud
The state legislatures currently abound with the "illiterate and ignorant".

That's a maybe and in some states that may be true. But I would put my trust in the intent of the Framers rather than the majority of the people I know, even on this site, that shill for politicians as if they're getting paid. And then somehow get upset two years later when 'their' political hack has somehow disappointed them. The state legislatures were meant to be a buffer between the people and the Senate, as the Senate would be about the more important business of this nation of states as a whole. The general public for the most part doesn't understand all the issues that the Senate covers. Heck I admit I read many of the bills and can't say I could make an informed decision on every one of them. Rather, the public treats Senate seats as some sort of football game, even calling for 'winning back the Senate at all costs' (fat lot of good that has done)

Unfortunately, the Senate has just become a higher House of Representatives with 101 political hacks fighting for soundbite airtime to complain about the other party and to let the faithful in their home state know they're working all so hard for them. Just the fact that the news wouldn't be filled with political doubletalk from a pack of liars, cheats, and grifters on both sides of the aisle (as they wouldn't be pandering for votes) is promising in and of itself

That is of course unless you believe the Framers were wrong and the two parties have done so much better in the past 80 years. But of course this comes from a conservative view and not a party faithful view.

38 posted on 05/30/2005 6:45:47 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: muawiyah

Forcing states to abdicate their constitutional rights at gunpoint is not my style...


39 posted on 05/30/2005 6:46:05 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: billbears
You are pointing to partisanship as constituting the biggest problem faced by the Senate as an institution.

I am sure they'd set that sort of thing aside if we'd just let them steal and then executed them at the end of their single term, don't you?

Or do you think Senators would continue to be partisans NO MATTER WHAT?

40 posted on 05/30/2005 6:49:20 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Remember_Salamis
"The Virginia and Kentucky Resolves of 1798 (see William Watkins, Reclaiming the American Revolution) were the work of state legislatures that instructed their senators to oppose the Sedition Act, which essentially made it illegal to criticize the federal government. "

Technically this is correct however, The Virginia Reslolves were written by Madison and the Kentucky Resolutions were written by Jefferson who was out of government completely at the time. The Alien and Sedition Acts were typical of what was done at a later time in the name of "crisis". The Emergency Powers Act of 1933 saddled us with the Executive Order form of government which is nowhere listed in the Constitution. Essentially, it granted Emergency Powers to the President, (FDR) which are still in use today.
At least the Alien and Sedition Acts had a "sunset clause" and they became automatically void on March 4, 1801. The day that Jefferson was sworn in as President.

41 posted on 05/30/2005 6:50:18 PM PDT by AntiBurr ("Ceterum censeo Islam esse delendam " with apologies to Cato)
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To: Remember_Salamis

The Souf' should have thought about that before firing on Fort Sumter. Next time I'm sure you will. In the meantime the 14th Amendment is in place ~ although it is frequently misread.


42 posted on 05/30/2005 6:51:16 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Remember_Salamis

Read later


43 posted on 05/30/2005 6:52:03 PM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: IronChefSakai

There's already a bill pending, with it's most prominent supporter being Tom DeLay.


44 posted on 05/30/2005 6:53:38 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: muawiyah
"If you have a legislature vote for a Senator, the only difference between that and having everybody in the state vote for a Senator is the number of voters!"

The difference is that the state legislatures were more responsive to the voters of their respective states. If a U.S. Senator did not represent his state, the state legislature could and did remove him. An example: Jim Lane of Kansas was removed as Senator during the Cvil War and wound up committing suicide rather than face prosecution.

45 posted on 05/30/2005 6:55:47 PM PDT by AntiBurr ("Ceterum censeo Islam esse delendam " with apologies to Cato)
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To: nicollo

DiLorenzo's point is that the 16th wouldn't have meant anything if there was a TRUE SENATE there to block the growth of government.


46 posted on 05/30/2005 6:58:44 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: AntiBurr

Wonder what they did with their Senators in Arkansas when they ran two completely separate State governments during the Civil War?


47 posted on 05/30/2005 7:00:26 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Remember_Salamis
"Thank you UNRATIFIED 14th Amendment!"

Or at least illegally ratified 14th. That's when they learned to load the dice.

48 posted on 05/30/2005 7:00:54 PM PDT by AntiBurr ("Ceterum censeo Islam esse delendam " with apologies to Cato)
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To: Remember_Salamis
I forgot to remember when it was that the Senate ever served to block the growth of government.

Maybe someone else remembers that.

49 posted on 05/30/2005 7:01:14 PM PDT by muawiyah (q)
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To: Remember_Salamis

Oh really? That's great. I just got done emailing 3 of my US reps and plan on doing it to the remaining 16. Do you know how it is going or have a link where i can read more about this?


50 posted on 05/30/2005 7:01:24 PM PDT by IronChefSakai (Life, Liberty, and Limited Government!)
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