How to Be a Beekeeper (ESPN.com takes swipe at homeschooled Spelling Bee contestants)

ESPN.com ^ | 6/2/2005 | Darren Rovell

[baseballfanjm]

ESPN.com ran this article, intending for it to be an amusing take on how to predict the winner of the National Spelling Bee. However, the last "formula" irked me.

Here's what it says:

"Stay away from home-schooled kids.

It goes without saying that these kids don't get out of the house much. There are 34 home-schooled competitors in this year's bee, including speller No. 142 Jack Ausick and speller No. 217 Benjamin Zachary Walter. The first home schooler won in 1997 and others followed, including Lala in '99 and Thampy in 2000. But kids that actually interact with other children at school have won three out of the last four bees."

While he has other "stay away from" picks that fit the joking manner of the article, that one struck me as just lame and as a swipe more than a joke.

[mollynme]

Check out this website. It lists a lot of home school resources. If you scroll down the page you will find a long list of "Jewish Homeschooling" resources.

[TalonDJ]

I have heard all the excuses before. That is an old one. Guess what? Forcing someone to test their morals in their teen years versus vastly increases the likelihood they will stumble. One time someone tried to tell me they wanted their kids exposed to drugs in school so the would 'know how to handle it later'. This is an amazingly stupid piece of logic. People in their 20s are much less likely to experiment with drugs and have much better moral confidence to say 'no'.
Someone also once tried the 'I send my kids to highschool so they have a chance to wittiness to the other kids.' Again, poor logic. Would you send a kid that could shoot straight off to a war? Heck know! Just because it looks on the surface that he might be able to handle it it is not worth the risk that he can't. The situation is the same except the scars are less visible.

[TalonDJ]

As a homeschool grad I use to get that 'missed prom' question in college. Since I went to an engineering school full of geeks I would asked 'did you go to your prom?' The answer was 'no' at least half the time.

[TalonDJ]

My parents started homeschooling strictly for educational reasons (the public school was a joke). The religions/moral/family-bonding benefits were a nice side effect.

[TalonDJ]

If you are a good parent then you child won't be a misfit.

Yeah but the 'good parent' does not get to decide what a 'misfit' is. The 'popular' people at school decide that. Oh and guess what, it is not very close to the definition of 'misfit' in general society. You really need to do your homework. Studies have shown home schoolers to be more able to interact with adults and people in general. When ever I got the 'socialization' questions I would ask people how many real friends they had in school. Feel free to think back and answer yourself. The answer is usually. 1-4 close friends, a few more acquaintances and a thousand other people there that they could not care less about or hated. I, on the other hand had... the same number of friends and acquaintances and no one I hated. The only difference in homeschool was they were kids next door, or down the block, or in the homeschooling group, or boyscouts, or on the swim team, or at karate class... If you think you need a government school to meet people you must not have gotten out much as a kid.

[SuziQ]

If you think you need a government school to meet people you must not have gotten out much as a kid.

*snort* Ain't it the truth?

[RavenATB]

Did you know (and, I assume you do) that FBI crime statistics show that people who work in or attend public schools are more likely to be victims of violent crime at school than they are on the street?

[RavenATB]

Did you know (and, I assume you do) that FBI crime statistics show that people who work in or attend public schools are more likely to be victims of violent crime at school than they are on the street?

[RavenATB]

Sorry about the "double post"

[Modernman]

As a product of public and private schools in Canada and the US, I think homeschoolers on FR tend to focus on the incredibly poor public schools (such as Washington DC) while ignoring the generally good (such as Oakland County, Michigan, where I graduated from high school) and great (Montgomery County, Maryland, where my wife went to public school) public school systems.

Pretty much everyone I know went to a public school. Generally speaking, few of them have any complaints. Homeschoolers on these threads focus on the sensational stories about things that go wrong in public schools while ignoring the millions upon millions of normal, productive members of society who graduated from public schools.

That being said, if I have my way, my kids are going to the British School in DC or St. Albans.

[Robert A. Cook, PE]

The "social" interaction that kids get from "normal" teenagers and younger students at "school" is a farce.

they learn deviancy, sub-standard behavior, immorality, drinking, drugs, smoking, (or all three) ignorance, lack of morals, lack of honor, lack of discipline, lack of spirit and pride.

They learn how to lie, cheat, steal, fake, and abuse themselves and each other: sexually, morally, and physically.

Name ONE "good" thing that "social" behavior - as practiced by today's "average" kid at ANY average school in any city in the country - teaches a youngster.

Failing that, try to name ONE good thing that TV or today's culture teaches the "average" kid. If you can get him away from those 200 + murders a week he sees.

[ICE-FLYER]

The following is my reply to the writer:



Darren Rovell,

My name is XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. I am a USAF pilot in the XXX AW which has the worlds only ski-equipped aircraft in the world. We fly the international scientific community around the polar regions of the globe to further the scientific knowledge base of the world in a multitude of areas. Though a Military unit, we are the only ones with the magnificent LC-130H aircraft which is a standard C-130 with the worlds largest set of skis for landing on snow.

I am a father of 5. We home school. And I am sure by this statement alone you might think I am looking for a fight with you, I am not. But I do wish you to think through statements like the one you posted recently. And I quote:

“Stay away from home-schooled kids. It goes without saying that these kids don't get out of the house much. There are 34 home-schooled competitors in this year's bee, including speller No. 142 Jack Ausick and speller No. 217 Benjamin Zachary Walter. The first home schooler won in 1997 and others followed, including Lala in '99 and Thampy in 2000. But kids that actually interact with other children at school have won three out of the last four bees.”

I simply have to ask what influences are you listening to that you come to this conclusion? I will be the first to admit to you that my children are NOT the universal home school standard. But they are “out of the house” quite a bit. It would seem that a good part of my income is spent in the taxi business to support it all. Ball Games, Clubs, recitals, music functions, church functions, club functions, Programs on my base for youth, programs with 4 H. And the list goes on and on and on.

We have to apply your line of logic to the world to see if it would stand the test of reality. After all, if these kids don’t get out much it stands to reason that they would be social misfits, would it not? Seems that Teddy Roosevelt, FDR and Lincoln turned out alright. I would imagine we need to be concerned with socialization so that people could do their jobs well. You know, like George Patton or Doug MacArthur. We would not want the best of our Generals in WWII to be home schooled in that way, would we? But they were. No, not ALL of their education is home school, just like not all of my children’s education is home school. They may attend High School, they may not, but they will go to university, Just like the others did.

There is definitely a block of people out there who know little of home schooling or of how it is done. You need to be honest and ask what their frame of reference is. Like mine, it was Public School all the way, complete with recess, school busses, Home Ec, Gym, Proms, School Dances and walks across the stage for awards, Band nights or the final one called Graduation. Truthfully is not all bad, but it seems to never bring up the negatives, its just how it was. That’s a frame of reference new to us. Formalized public school is recent history. You and I went through it. Today it is a system with a lot of VESTED interest in it staying the way it is. Unions, Politicians and others demand we know only them in control of it. While I am not trying to debate it with you I simply want you to see that very real reasons exists for why parents like me Home school. Start schooling by 8:30 AM and end by 1:00 PM and achieve more scholastically than their counterparts in the public system. What to do with that time? Use it. Go places, do things, be involved, get the hands on experience that you would not have sitting in a classroom. Be at home with family or out with friends “socializing”.

I think you have been lead down the path of those who know little to nothing about home schooling. I wish you to learn a little more before making such a blanket statement. I have flown around the world as a USAF pilot, seen many cultures and have experienced many different things, but one thing universal to all of them is that the best children of those societies are the ones with involved parents who do more than just raise kids, they parent them, teach them and motivate them. Yes, there are some parents who have no business home schooling their kids, but they have choices too, like on-line virtual schools so that courseware and syllabus can be done for that parent who does not know how or fears making mistakes. There are other ways as well. They deserve the right and respect to have cared enough to want more than the one-size-fits-all school to a lower-common-denominator government answer. Teachers today have my respect and admiration. They are often great people working against a rising tide of problems that hand cuff them from doing a lot of things they wished they could do. Say something wrong and they are in trouble, discipline wrong and they are in trouble, can’t speak to some parents who’s little “angel” could do no wrong all while working within a system that oft-times is broken from the TOP down. They have my respect, but this does not mean I have to send my children there.

I invite you to look at the list of home schooled folks attached at the end of this letter as well as follow the link to an article you may find interesting on the subject.

I would be glad to make myself available to you for any questions. In the meantime, go Red Sox and do it again New England Patriots!

Regards,



Documented in the book, Home Schooling: The Right Choice, by Chris Klicka

Presidents
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
John Quincy Adams
Abraham Lincoln
William Henry Harrison
Theodore F. Roosevelt
Woodrow Wilson
John Tyler
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Governors
Patrick Henry (VA)
Charles Pickney III (SC)
Richard D. Spaight (NC)
William Livingston (NJ)
Richard Bassett (DE)

Authors
Mark Twain
George Bernard Shaw
Irving Berlin
Charles Dickens
C.S. Lewis

Generals
"Stonewall" Jackson
Robert E. Lee
Douglas MacArthur
George Patton

US Senators of Congressmen
William S. Johnson (CT)
George Clymer (PA)
John Francis Mercer (MD)
William Blount (TN)
William Few (GA)

Preachers and Missionaries
John and Charles Wesley
John Owen
Jonathan Edwards
William Carey
Dwight L. Moody
John Newton
Hudson Taylor

Scientists, Economists, and Businessmen
Blaise Pascal
Booker T. Washington
Thomas Edison
Benjamin Franklin
Andrew Carnegie
John Stuart Mill

College Presidents
John Witherspoon – Princeton
Timothy Dwight – Yale
William S. Johnson – Columbia

Chief Justices of the US Supreme Court
John Rutledge
John Jay
John Marshall

Composers
Anton Bruckner
Felix Mendelssohn
Amadeus Mozart
Francis Poulenc

Artists
John Singleton Copley
Andrew Wyeth
Rembrandt Peale
Claude Monet
Ansel Adams

Philosopher
Charles Montesquieu

Famous Women
Abigail Adams
Mercy Warren
Martha Washington
Florence Nightingale
Phyllis Wheatley
Agatha Christie
Pearl S. Buck


http://members.iquest.net/~macihms/Education/acesat.html

[baseballfanjm]

Oh dear, you think you can say that as if you know more than I do on the subject, and yet I'm a homeschooler. It was out of the lack of the quality of the local school system that my parents did it. However, they've gone out of their way to make sure I've had more interaction and social experience than I had when I was at a school here.



Where'd this idea that public school is an absolutely necessary social experience, without which kids become reclusive misfits, and the only necessary one for kids it seems, come from?

[Modernman]

they learn deviancy, sub-standard behavior, immorality, drinking, drugs, smoking, (or all three) ignorance, lack of morals, lack of honor, lack of discipline, lack of spirit and pride.

They learn how to lie, cheat, steal, fake, and abuse themselves and each other: sexually, morally, and physically.

What an odd opinion. Do you actually know any public school kids?

[baseballfanjm]

The writer, who thinks in stereotypes, won't know what to do with that, a completely reasonable and letter. He'll hit the fourth sentence and explode. ;)

Either that, or he'll take the "I'm kidding!" defense.

[Robert A. Cook, PE]

Yeah. From 12 years of exposure to them through my wife's classes, through 36 years of exposure to them from kid's experiences, and from hundreds of hours of working them at school and after school events and proms baby-sitting and dances and sport events and parking lots and shopping malls and .....

[Modernman]

Guess the kids in Georgia are different, or you're living in the wrong place. Pretty much everyone I know went to public school and the vast majority are productive members of society.

[ICE-FLYER]

I will always give the benefit of the doubt because if you don't, even if you are dead right, you will be branded a reactionary. However, you and I held the same suspicions.

Here is the total of his reply to my e-mail:

"Thankfully I believe the kids who read my article, even perhaps the home schoolers in this very competition, realize that my article is a complete joke. Part of humor is coming to conclusions that don’t often make sense. I hope you can appreciate that.

Darren:

LOL!!! The "I'm just kidding" defense

[Sam's Army]

"As a product of public and private schools in Canada and the US, I think homeschoolers on FR tend to focus on the incredibly poor public schools..."

Schools have gotten amazingly politicized in the last couple of decades. Parents (some anyway) are fed up with the focus on sexual deviancy, political correctness, etc under the guise of education and throwing more and more money at a problem that does not get solved. Teachers unions and attorneys add to the decline of standards over the past 20-30 years.

The pressure from some states and corners of the media to make homeschooling a pariah-like function only add to the willingness of some to want to get their kids into an environment where parents have a say once again, and not the state.

They are supposed to work for us, the taxpayers. They forget it often.

[baseballfanjm]

LOL. I too will give the benefit of the doubt, as I usually do, even if our suspicions are true.

I knew he meant the article in general as a joke when I read it, and I have no trouble with jokes that poke harmless fun. I just felt his homeschooler remark smacked of stereotypes and spoke some volumes on his real thoughts about homeschoolers. Sometimes people use humor as a way to mask hurtful things under the guise that they're just kidding.

[baseballfanjm]

Hey guys, I didn't mean for this to be a "public school vs. homeschooled" thing.

I was just annoyed at the stereotypes and insults tossed so nonchalantly at homeschoolers (demonstrated by the writer and by MikeyA5150).

[Modernman]

I was just annoyed at the stereotypes and insults tossed so nonchalantly at homeschoolers (demonstrated by the writer and by MikeyA5150).,

I personally have nothing against homeschooling (so long as there are minimal controls in place to make sure the homeschooled kids are in fact getting an education).

I doubt I'd personally ever homeschool my kids, but I'm fortunate to live in a region with good public schools (well, maybe not DC, but Montgomery County and the close-in Virginia suburbs have good schools) and, failing that, have the financial means to send my kids to private schools, if need be. So, homeschooling would never be necessary for my family. That being said, I'm sure there are plenty of places in this country where homeschooling is necessary.

[Gabz]

I was just annoyed at the stereotypes and insults tossed so nonchalantly at homeschoolers (demonstrated by the writer and by MikeyA5150).

And I don't blame you one little bit.

But with that said, those of us who choose to send our children to public school also get annoyed with the gatuitous insults and stereotypes that get shoved at us by some homeschoolers.

I'm not saying either reaction is correct - but the charge is equally valid against both sides.

[savedbygrace]

How large is the sample in your research there, Mikey?

I've personally known hundreds, probably more than a thousand, hoeschooled kids during the past 15 years or so, and your characterizations are nearly 100% out of touch with reality.

So seriously, how many are you talking about? Two, five, a dozen?

[Gabz]

So seriously, how many are you talking about? Two, five, a dozen?

My best quess in answer to that particular question to that particular poster wuold be a big fat ZERO.

[Lizavetta]

the vast majority are productive members of society.

I'd rather have decency than productivity. Lawyers like John Edwards are "productive" members of society, don'tcha know.

[Modernman]

I'd rather have decency than productivity

The vast majority are decent, too.

[FierceKulak]

Well thanks for telling me I was abused and am a social misfit. Apparently my friends didn't get that memo though.

[Lizavetta]

The vast majority are decent, too.

You're only assuming or guessing. You really have no way of knowing what the 'vast majority' of them are, or aren't.

[scripter]

Homeschool ping list ping.

[Modernman]

You're only assuming or guessing. You really have no way of knowing what the 'vast majority' of them are, or aren't.

All we have in this discussion are our own subjective opinions. I look around and see that the vast majority of Americans (the majority of whom went to public school) are decent, fairly religious, productive members of society. They have, for example, one of the highest per capita charitable donation rates in the world.

You, on the other hand, have a few sensational stories about what goes on in public schools that serve to reinforce your predjudices against public education.

[FierceKulak]

I don't know or really care where you went to school, but you should have paid more attention to your English teacher.

[familyop]

"Here's why it's easy to take a swipe at the homeschooled kids..."

...as contrasted with so many of the public-schooled kids who have already been behind bars?

[baseballfanjm]

Modernman, I wasn't accusing you of attacking homeschooling. :)

I appreciate your points of view on the subject, anyhow. It shows that things aren't always cut and dry.

Gabz, I totally understand. I was actually aiming my post more to keep the thread from being a fight about public schools, sine that wasn't why it was posted.

[Gabz]

I realize that...I just wish more folks, on both sides, would also realize that.

I agree with your reasons for posting this article, the supposed "humor" of the comment fell flat, and thus came across as a needless, gratuitous, smart-aleck crack.

[montag813]

The moron who wrote that didn't bother to think about how vastly outnumbered homeschooled kids are in the United States.

Do you know the percentage? Curious for use in arguments.

[familyop]

"All we have in this discussion are our own subjective opinions."

The facts from research reports being common knowledge, you're recycling a subjective myth. Follow the link for some objective reports and be educated before you try to project more misinformation against the general success of homeschooling.

Homeschooling Research
...homeschooling statistics, studies, and information!

[Modernman]

Follow the link for some objective reports and be educated before you try to project more misinformation against the general success of homeschooling.

Please look at my posts in this thread and tell me where I have said anything against the general success of homeschooling. I have not. I fully acknowledge that homeschooling can be quite successful.

[familyop]

I made the point that homeschooling is, on average, superior in practice to public schooling, and I posted a link to research reports. The evidence from those reports is not "subjective." And yes, with that evidence, I am criticizing public schooling and saying that it is generally inferior.

[baseballfanjm]

I spent the 4th grade I was in an advanced Seminar class in a public school in San Diego.

I was blessed to have a wonderful and kind teacher named Mrs. Hester who knew what she was doing and had firm control over the classroom. I have some great memories from that class.

Homeschooling worked for me, but that doesn't mean there aren't people like Mrs. Hester out there who know how to run a classroom and give kids a great school experience.

I also understand the dislike of public schooling. Really, it depends on the area, as I learned from experience.

What doesn't help are people like Mikey who just toss out insults and who don't answer to people who, from experience, rebut what he says.

[baseballfanjm]

I spent the 4th grade I was in an advanced Seminar class in a public school in San Diego

LOL, please excuse this grammatical error. It's what I get for not double checking while editing a reply before posting.

[Modernman]

I made the point that homeschooling is, on average, superior in practice to public schooling

Sure. Homeschooling is basically tutoring. It allows each student to receive personalized attention. If we paid to have each student in public schools taught by their own individual teacher, you'd get similar results.

It's apples and oranges. The public school system is like a factory, homeschooling is an artisanal workshop. Homeschooling is a good way to educate a few kids, but it will never be able to be applied to the population at large.

I'm looking at the results. The vast majority of students in this country go to public schools and yet, Americans are generally decent, religious and productive. I think the public school system, despite its faults, is generally succesful in this country.

[Thinkin' Gal]

Folks always say, "Well, they have to learn to get along with others because they'll have to work with different types of folks someday". The difference is that, at school, you're forced to be with others who are all the same age and have the same teenage hormonal angst going on. In the world of work, people can CHOOSE where they want to work, and if they don't like the folks, can just ignore them or change jobs. They are not FORCED by law to be there.

Yeah, "have to"... in the freako slave society of human resources. Note that their worldview IS predicated on forced labor. To think outside their robotosphere utopia is blasphemy to these plantation-dwellers. Homeschoolers are the equivalent of runaway slaves.

[Gabz]

I don't believe the poster Mikey has any clue what he was talking about.

I have yet to meet a homeschooled child who is not sociable and well-mannered and perfectly at ease with peers or conversing with adults. I'm sure they exist, but I haven't met any.

And just like your experience with public schools, I agree with you that it depends on the area. And in many cases it has nothing to do with the "wealth" of the particular district. We live in one of the poorest counties in Virginia - but I would put the schools, and the teachers in this district up against many I know in some of the wealthier school districts in Delaware.

The education of our children is ultimately our responsibility and I would venture to say most parents take that responsibility very seriously when it comes to making choices in regard to that education. And no one should be castigated, regardless of the choice.

[Paige]

It does not surprise me and thanks for the information. I knew there were stats to prove every point we make about the public school system. I am a firm believer in choice; so, it would be extremely nice if the NEA and public school supporters would stop making lurid statements they cannot back up about children being home schooled.

[familyop]

Modernman, in your comment #192, I won't (and couldn't effectively) argue with your first two paragraphs. Those were well considered and written. The third has much to do with our various standards and expectations. ...looking in on the thread from time to time between code development/math problems here.

One can look at the methodologies and data beyond subjective research reports to find some truths. I admit, though, that my personal outlook on homeschooling is subjective, as are the mindsets of most on every side of the issue.

The further I have gone into homeschooling the children, the more my own perspective resembles that of Thinkin' Gal in comment #193. I recently worked in a public school (K-12) for a year. Yes, the classes contain more children than two or three, each. And yes, there are disruptive students (many who are products of fatherlessness). But most of the material taught is social trash--virtually worthless toward higher education and good citizenship. That part of public education is intentionally delivered.

The kids (teens) and I are escaping the "plantation" together. From apparent progress, moral development and several years of decidedness on their part so far, it's likely that many will depend on them for security in the near future. So the "human resources" (phrase reminiscent of "soylent green") witches (not all but too many) really won't have any say about their contracts.

[condi2008]

Oh. "Never mind."

[Paulus Invictus]

Many of our neighbor kids are home schooled and are anything but social misfits. They have all kinds of friends in public schools, are very popular and they all get along very well. Characterizing all home schooled kids as social misfits is asinine. As far as UT public schools are concerned, I can't imagine why I would be so misguided as to send my kids to schools with such a proven poor record vs. kids in other states.

[SuziQ]

Pretty much everyone I know went to public school and the vast majority are productive members of society.

Everyone who says that seems to have graduated from school more than 10 yrs. ago. High Schools are a different place these days, from what I've seen.

[cantfindagoodscreenname]

Having worked with and had roommates with home schoolers, I would never home school my son.

My son (who was homeschooled his whole life) met a kid (public schooled) during his first year of college this past year who has absolutely no social skills. My son says that this kid is always giving my son a hard time for being homeschooled but he thinks it's because it's the *other* kids who's the misfit. It makes him feel good to tease my son. When I asked my son why he's going to room with this kid next year, he said, "I'm the only one of my friends who can deal with his personality." I find that hysterical and a credit to his being homeschooled! Imagine that! The publicly schooled and privately schooled kids can't deal with him, but the homeschooled kid can!

You need to meet more homeschooled kids. You're sadly mistaken about their being misfits and abused. But, you're free to have your opinion. It doesn't affect me (or my perfectly normal homeschooled kids). As a matter of fact, my kids are so "normal" that I sometimes think I've failed as a homeschooler.