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Growing Problem for Military Recruiters: Parents
NYT ^ | June 3 05 | Damien Cave

Posted on 06/02/2005 11:39:05 PM PDT by churchillbuff

Two years into the war in Iraq, as the Army and Marines struggle to refill their ranks, parents have become boulders of opposition that recruiters cannot move.

Mothers and fathers around the country said they were terrified that their children would have to be killed - or kill - in a war that many see as unnecessary and without end.

At schools, they are insisting that recruiters be kept away, incensed at the access that they have to adolescents easily dazzled by incentive packages and flashy equipment.

A Department of Defense survey last November, the latest, shows that only 25 percent of parents would recommend military service to their children, down from 42 percent in August 2003.

"Parents," said one recruiter in Ohio who insisted on anonymity because the Army ordered all recruiters not to talk to reporters, "are the biggest hurdle we face."

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: recruiting
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A neice "in law" of mine is heading to Iraq. I'd feel better about it if some kids of our national political leaders, of either party, were over there in uniform. I suspect a lot of the parents who are hassling recruiters have to wonder the same thing - - why aren't more children of the country's political leadership, in uniform in Iraq? Also, the fact there were no WMDs has to have made a lot of people question this never-ending war. Full disclosure: I've been against the Iraq invasion from the beginning (I was for concentrating more manpower and firepower against al Quada in Afghanistan; when Bush said Osama "dead or alive," I cheered - - but everybody's forgotten about the guy who did 9-11. I suspect a lot of these hostile parents have come around to my way of thinking; they don't want to lose their kids for such a dubious military adventure. AND DON'T TELL ME I'M NOT A CONSERVATIVE BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO THINK THE IRAQ INVASION WAS AND IS A MISTAKE. I WALKED PRECINCTS FOR GOLDWATER, WORKED FOR NIXON CAMPAIGNS, REAGAN AND BOTH BUSHES. NEVER EVER VOTED DEMOCRAT; ALWAYS REPUBLICAN -- But I still think Iraq is a big mistake. A lot of parents agree.
1 posted on 06/02/2005 11:39:05 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

Already posted

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1415498/posts


2 posted on 06/02/2005 11:40:59 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: churchillbuff

So how long did you serve?


3 posted on 06/02/2005 11:42:40 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: Kozak
So how long did you serve?"""

You mean you have to be in the military in order to have the freedom to oppose a military policy? Maybe that's true in dictatorial countries, but not in a democracy. I opposed Clinton's Kosovo bombing - - even though I wasn't in the military. Was I not permitted to hold that opinion, either?

4 posted on 06/02/2005 11:44:48 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

Yeah, but you are not thinking through this Michael Moore logic. What do you want the leaders of the US to do? "Son, I want you to sign up for service to deflect criticism of our war in Iraq." "OK, great idea Dad".

Since when is it up to a parent to force their child to go to war? No Senator can sign their child up for war. It's a volunteer army. It's up to the child.

Where I would agree is that a parent, and a nation, needs to be cautious about recruitment. We should never glamorize war. War is hell, right? Parents should fully explain the benefits and consequences of joining.


5 posted on 06/02/2005 11:45:43 PM PDT by Lord Nelson
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To: churchillbuff

every time I read articles like the NY Times article you posted...It think...this is good news for the democrats.

the democrats have the viet nam scenario playing in their heads. I don't that this war is going to go by that scenario.


6 posted on 06/02/2005 11:47:55 PM PDT by ckilmer
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To: Lord Nelson
Since when is it up to a parent to force their child to go to war""""

In World War II all our congress, cabinet and presidents had kids or relatives in uniform. Not now. That tells me these elite families either think they're too good for military service - - that it's something for the middle and lower classes -- or they don't view the Iraq war as essential for national security the way our involvement in WWII was (and, of course, it isn't).

7 posted on 06/02/2005 11:48:27 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: ckilmer

Yes, the article's from the NY Times, but it's consistent with everything I've read in recent months from any source. i.e., recruiters are having a tough time, and a lot of parents are putting up resistence. Can you cite an article, from any source, that says recruiting is not in a slump? I'd love to see that article.


8 posted on 06/02/2005 11:50:22 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

I thought so.


9 posted on 06/02/2005 11:51:25 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: Kozak

Where and when did you serve in the military, and what branch?


10 posted on 06/02/2005 11:52:21 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: Kozak

How many relatives of yours are in Iraq? Are any of you children in the military?


11 posted on 06/02/2005 11:53:12 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: Kozak

I thought so.


12 posted on 06/02/2005 11:54:55 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

I spent 8 years in the AF.
My nephew is going to Saudi Arabia with the AF next month.

As to your right to an opinion, of course you have a right.
But opinions are like A##holes. Every has one.


13 posted on 06/02/2005 11:59:57 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: churchillbuff
Often sons and daughters join for the fringe benefits afterwards. Richer kids perhaps don't feel they need the military to help them get a start on life. In a way the military is a good thing for poorer people or those with limited opportunities. Most kids are probably too busy worrying about their sex life or God knows what. I don't know. I've never had the urge to join the military myself. Not one for conforming. That's just me.
14 posted on 06/03/2005 12:03:15 AM PDT by Lord Nelson
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To: Kozak
But opinions are like A##holes. Every has one."""

In a democracy, everybody has a RIGHT to an opinion. I have a right to mine - and it happens to have been borne out as pretty accurate, when you look at the mess that is Iraq today.

15 posted on 06/03/2005 12:09:48 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
Can you cite an article, from any source, that says recruiting is not in a slump? I'd love to see that article.

Recruiting for the ARMY is in a slump. The Navy and the Air Force are continuing to exceed their goals. The Air Force just in the last year forced out 20,000 airmen because they were overmanned. Retention in the AF is at an all-time high.

16 posted on 06/03/2005 12:17:06 AM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: churchillbuff
I use to think so. Rather than look at Iraq as a mistake look at it as a battlefield between the values of the West and those of Islamo Fascism. The insurgents are being lead by Zarqawi's Al Queda. International Islam is fighting it's war against the US in Iraq. This is the United State's opportunity to disable much of the terrorist network.
17 posted on 06/03/2005 12:19:02 AM PDT by Lord Nelson
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To: churchillbuff

Lets see, the "mess" just had it's first democratic election in over 30 years. A mad dictator who killed millions is about to meet his Allah. Jihadi's from all over are flocking to the area so that we can kill them, fighting against our military instead of innocent American civilians. People like you have NO conception of history or war. Our occupation of Germany and Japan lasted a DECADE. This war against the Jihadi Islamofacists will last a long time. Unless of course we listen to people like you, who would have us declare defeat now and just surrender.

By the way I answered you question about MY military service and family stake. Now whats YOURS?


18 posted on 06/03/2005 12:24:41 AM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: FreedomCalls

RE: The Navy and Airforce vs the Army and Marine Corps recruiting.

Does this surprise you?

(I'll check on your reply when I get home later today.)


19 posted on 06/03/2005 12:26:59 AM PDT by leadpenny
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To: Kozak
Lets see, the "mess" just had it's first democratic election in over 30 years"""

Yes, it's a mess - - there's essentially a civil war going on. If you go back and read the articles and predictions that were put out, pre-invasion - - including here on freerepublic -- what's going on in Iraq today is nowhere, NOTHING, like what was predicted. We were promised that a peaceful joyful greetting awaited us. NO PROLONGED INSURGENCY WAS PREDICTED. If you claim otherwise, please point to the pre-invasion article that supports you. You can't, because what we've got on our hands was never publicly forecast -- except by some generals who said we'd need a lot more men to keep down insurgents (and those generals were hooted down). As for post WWII analogy - MacArthur's Japan was nothing like Iraq today. There were some commies vying for power, but not with widespread violence and the equivalence of a civil war. "Ten years" my butt. MacArthur had the place up and running well before he was cashiered by Truman - and that was less than five years after V-J day.

20 posted on 06/03/2005 12:32:09 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
In World War II all our congress, cabinet and presidents had kids or relatives in uniform. Not now.

In World War II, about 10,420,000 Americans, or about 7.45% of the entire nation's population, were in uniform.

Today, about 1,470,000 Americans, or about 0.566% of the nation's population, are in uniform.

It isn't surprising, therefore, that it's much less likely for a Congressman or Senator to have a child in uniform - it's much less likely for anyone to have a child in uniform.

I was for concentrating more manpower and firepower against al Quada in Afghanistan

We essentially killed all or mostly all of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda operatives in Afghanistan; the remaining fighting there is mostly chasing bandits around in the Khyber Pass area adjoining the lawless frontier of Pakistan. Concentrating more manpower or firepower in Afghanistan wouldn't do much, and wouldn't have done much in 2003.

Instead, we've essentially built a giant bug-zapper in Iraq, drawing our opponents in from all over the world to fight our soldiers. Creating a battleground in Iraq has saved us a lot of effort fighting Al-Qaeda in East Africa, in Indonesia, in Southeast Asia, in Yemen... and in the United States. Better that guerillas should fight the United States Army in somebody else's country, than the NYPD in midtown Manhattan.

In addition, the administration's long-term strategy is this: our opponent is Islamic fundamentalism, which is essentially a product of the Wahabi faction in Saudi Arabia. Fundamentalism is growing rapidly more popular in the Arab world, because of the collapse in popularity of the competing idea: Arabic nationalism, or Baathism. (Essentially an Arab version of fascism, begun by Nazi agents who tried to turn the Middle East against the British during the Second World War.) Baathism is dying out - the last Baathist states were Syria and Saddam's Iraq. The restless Arabs are looking to Wahabism to guide them instead. Al-Qaeda is a coalition of militant Wahabi groups.

By creating what amounts to a modern democracy in Iraq, the Bush administration hopes to create an attractive alternative to Wahabism: becoming part of the Western world. Hence the need to invade Iraq and overthrow its government, in order to shock the Arab world by providing a fresh alternative to either stale fascism or radical Islamism. So far, the strategy seems to be successful - the great success of the Iraqi elections in January and the so-called "Cedar Revolution" in Lebanon demonstrate that the Arab world is coming to terms with this new idea.

The Wahabis, who aren't stupid, are trying their hardest to defeat this project, by sending in as many militants as they can get their hands on, to fight the Americans in Iraq and to try to frighten the Iraqi populace. They are supported in this endeavor by Syria (who still holds out hopes for Baathism) and Iran (who hope to keep Iraq weak and unstable, and thus maintain their position as the strongest Persian Gulf nation).

21 posted on 06/03/2005 12:33:48 AM PDT by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: Kozak
whats YOURS? """

As I said in my first post, a niece of my wife is headed to Iraq - via Air Force. Another niece of my sister (through husband) is going somewhere in middle east, also through air force. Query: Why can't either of the Bush girls put on a uniform? Even Queen Elizabeth deigned to do so in WWII. (when she was still a young princess)

22 posted on 06/03/2005 12:35:40 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: Kozak

"MY military service and family stake."

Never understood why this is relevant to the arguement....


23 posted on 06/03/2005 12:36:12 AM PDT by dakine
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To: SedVictaCatoni
We essentially killed all or mostly all of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda operatives in Afghanistan"""

Uh, remember Osama - - - "dead or alive" ???? He did 9-11 and we don't have him. It hardly makes me a "dove" to think he should have been our top target, not Saddam.

24 posted on 06/03/2005 12:37:40 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

What is your suggestion on how to deal with Islamic extremist?


25 posted on 06/03/2005 12:46:20 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn
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To: Steve Van Doorn

probaly hunt them down in the countries where they are and kill them ala the afghanistan operation. though i consider some of the results of the iraq conflict to be great successes, it wasn't exactly an al qaeda hunt there to begin with - which should have been the focus all along.

---

What is your suggestion on how to deal with Islamic extremist?


26 posted on 06/03/2005 12:51:20 AM PDT by sodiumodium
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To: Steve Van Doorn
What is your suggestion on how to deal with Islamic extremist? """

No. 1: Border control. The 9-11 guys were here on expired or irregular visas. A "war on terror" that leaves our border open is a joke. Like fighting crime in the hood by going a block away for a rumble, while leaving the windows and doors of your own house wide open.

27 posted on 06/03/2005 12:51:31 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
Uh, remember Osama - - - "dead or alive" ????

Yes, I remember him. We destroyed his power base in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, and have reduced him to an essentially powerless fugitive in Pakistan. Good work by our military.

He did 9-11 and we don't have him.

This is a vague, CNN-style simplification. The 9-11 attacks were planned and executed by the Al-Qaeda organization, not by Osama Bin Laden himself. OBL was the head of Al-Qaeda, which we have spent the last three and a half years carefully dismantling. OBL's immediate circle has been severely disrupted, and his lieutenants in Pakistan are being picked off. Zarqawi is now the effective head of AQ, and we have drawn him into a situation where he is running around Iraq trying not to get shot by the Marines, rather than directing terrorist attacks from a cave in Afghanistan. Again, good work by our military.

It hardly makes me a "dove" to think he should have been our top target, not Saddam.

He was our top target. That's why we invaded Afghanistan only a few months after 9/11, and Iraq much later.

Trying to fight the War on Terror as the War on Osama Bin Laden would have been like trying to fight the Second World War as a constant series of commando raids to try to assassinate Hitler.

You may wish to read my post #21, by the way - it helps to explain what this "dubious military adventure" is actually about.

28 posted on 06/03/2005 12:52:04 AM PDT by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: churchillbuff
From another thread: "One of the reasons I opposed the invasion of Iraq -- a country with a 5th rate military that didn't constitute a threat to the US."

I am sorry but you have been a freeper for almost as long as I have but you don't seem to be aware of what Iraq has been doing? I don't understand, why are you not aware of what Iraq has been doing?

29 posted on 06/03/2005 12:52:09 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn
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To: Steve Van Doorn

please elaborate for us ;) i'm not on this forum very often

---

I am sorry but you have been a freeper for almost as long as I have but you don't seem to be aware of what Iraq has been doing? I don't understand, why are you not aware of what Iraq has been doing?


30 posted on 06/03/2005 12:53:36 AM PDT by sodiumodium
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To: churchillbuff
”No. 1: Border control”

We all agree with you there but what about taking the war to them?

31 posted on 06/03/2005 12:54:22 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn
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To: Steve Van Doorn
What is your suggestion on how to deal with Islamic extremist? """

Well, how did the Israelis do it? With a border wall. Yet we say we're fighting a "war on terror" and we let illegals stream across our borders unmolested -- and law-abiding citizens who try to stem the tide are denounced as "vigilantes" I don't believe we're really fighting a war on terror - - at least not one that any intelligent strategist would map out, because a real war on terror would start by securing the home borders.

32 posted on 06/03/2005 12:55:18 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: Steve Van Doorn
We all agree with you there but what about taking the war to them?"""

That's a waste if our border's open. It's NOT true that "we all agree with you." The president doesn't -- he's leaving the border open.

33 posted on 06/03/2005 12:56:32 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

"I suspect a lot of these hostile parents have come around to my way of thinking; they don't want to lose their kids for such a dubious military adventure."

It may or may not have been dubious at the outset but at this point it seems like we do not have the option to withdraw and give the country over to Al Queda. To do so would hand a huge victory to militant Islam and almost certainly ensure a much larger and more deadly battle in the future. We are at war and we need to win, defeat is not an option. What else is there to say at this point? Do you want some shiny stars next to your name for your foresight?


34 posted on 06/03/2005 12:57:31 AM PDT by Avenger
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To: churchillbuff
Well, how did the Israelis do it? With a border wall.

You appear to be under the impression that Mexico is controlled by Muslim fundamentalists.

35 posted on 06/03/2005 1:00:35 AM PDT by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: sodiumodium
To summarize off the top of my head(just a few examples):

1. We know saddam helped finnance the WTC attack of 93.
2. We know saddam was trying to purchase nuclear equipment.
3. We know he had the most sophisticated Anthrax lab in the world.
4. We know he helped finnance the attack of the USS Cole

36 posted on 06/03/2005 1:05:45 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn
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To: SedVictaCatoni

Some of what you say is correct. However, I believe that the admin is too PC. They always say a GWOT. Thats BS. Why don't they say a war on Islamic fundamentalist extremist. Thats what you suggest they mean, but they never say it. Is that not who we are fighting?

Do you suggest we leave Iraq now since we have all the terrorist right where we want them? Is the long term strategy to allow the terrorist in Iraq and then leave without defeating them? Do you suggest we allow a new country of Iraq to defeat the terrorist there while us, the most powerful country in the world cannot(we can put politics is in the way)? Why leave the country if thats where all the enemies are.


37 posted on 06/03/2005 1:07:32 AM PDT by Skeeve14 (De Opresso Liber)
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To: churchillbuff
"That's a waste if our border's open. It's NOT true that "we all agree with you." The president doesn't -- he's leaving the border open."

Ok I agree with you. But I still think we need to take the war to them.

38 posted on 06/03/2005 1:09:12 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn
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To: churchillbuff

Clearly you have an agenda, and I won't change your mind.
I think the action against Iraq was a strategic neccesity. We removed one of our major enemies in the region. It puts our forces in the center of the middle east giving us a base of action against most of the hostile countries in the area. It's sucking jihadi's in like a magnet so that the can be killed by the thousands by our military. As a bonus if Iraq emerges as a functioning democracy it will act as a catalyst for change in the hell hole of the world.

Finally, what would you have proposed as an alternate strategy, leaving Saddam in power?


39 posted on 06/03/2005 1:14:24 AM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: Kozak

Churchillbluff hates the military and George W. Bush, in that order.


40 posted on 06/03/2005 1:17:13 AM PDT by Howlin (Up or down on Janice Brown!)
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To: Skeeve14
However, I believe that the admin is too PC. They always say a GWOT. Thats BS. Why don't they say a war on Islamic fundamentalist extremist. Thats what you suggest they mean, but they never say it. Is that not who we are fighting?

To some extent, the term "Global War on Terror" encompasses non-Islamic terrorists like FARC and ETA - the principle is that non-state military groups are no longer acceptable. However, since the Islamic fundamentalist groups are far and away the most dangerous, they're the ones to actually go and fight.

Do you suggest we leave Iraq now since we have all the terrorist right where we want them?

No. I think we should remain and kill as many of them as possible, and continue to train the Iraqi armed forces to kill as many of them as possible.

Is the long term strategy to allow the terrorist in Iraq and then leave without defeating them?

The long-term strategy is to kill as many Al-Qaeda militants as possible, and to starve them of money and personnel, while continuing to break their organizational network.

I am not sure why you thought my post advocated withdrawing from Iraq. We should remain until we have accomplished our goal - establishing the closest thing that the Middle East has to a Western nation, in order to exert catastrophic pressure on Syria, terrify Iran into submission, stabilize the Gulf states, strengthen pro-Western factions in Saudi Arabia, and give Lebanon and Egypt a chance to follow in Iraq's footsteps. So far, so good.

41 posted on 06/03/2005 1:17:38 AM PDT by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: churchillbuff
Sir, with all due respect, I believe you may be wrong on this - members of Congress do have family/children in our wars today, and @ I believe a higher rate than the comparative general population. I don't have the exact numbers, but allow me to illustrate:

But that 'rate' would be a smoke screen - if say, for example, out of the 535 members of congress, 35 had family/children in uniform today (and that would not include members who actually have served in uniform, such as former President Bush, Sen Inouye, etc...), that would be roughly 6.5 percent of the body. Compare this to the general population; almost 300 million Americans, from which roughly 3 million currently active or reserve - or 1 percent. Again, I use the above numbers as an example, because I don't have the exact figures; but the above example is generally correct.

As for your feelings on the Gulf War, you'll get no critiques from me for freely expressing your beliefs in a sober and respectful manner.

As a Vet, I can tell you that even as I am the last to wish a war, I am also in favor of this necessary war and only wish we would prosecute it on the other critical fronts more effectively - but that is another thread.

God Bless, and please tell your sobrina that she goes with our prayers and expectations that she will be a worthy representative of the Greatest Military the World has ever known.

42 posted on 06/03/2005 1:21:19 AM PDT by CGVet58 (God has granted us Liberty, and we owe Him Courage in return)
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To: churchillbuff
From the beginning I believe our leadership understands the war on terror isn’t a threat for the survival of the nation as WWII(not at this point at least.) Terrorists are like a child kicking at your feet once in a while it will hurt a little.

Bush in his own way has fought this war accordingly. We want the boarders closed for added security and other reasons but many in government want illegals to come across the board for the lower wages. You and I do not agree with that but we are not making those decisions.

43 posted on 06/03/2005 1:23:21 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn
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To: churchillbuff

I agree. It's always been us on the lower end doing the fighting. Unfortunately I'm no senators son. That's just the way it is. Don't let any of these arm chair generals get to you. It's easy to talk the talk but how many have said there goodbyes to an indefinite deployment, it's not fun. It makes me sick to my stomach that over 1600 men and women have died for this foreign adventure.


44 posted on 06/03/2005 1:33:11 AM PDT by Mr. Rips
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To: churchillbuff
I have a right to mine - and it happens to have been borne out as pretty accurate, when you look at the mess that is Iraq today.

But you're looking at it through the media's eyes.

The Iraq created by the media and the real Iraq are two very different animals.

45 posted on 06/03/2005 1:39:05 AM PDT by Allegra (It's Hotter'n A Whorehouse on Nickel Night)
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To: churchillbuff
As far as I'm concerned, these parents are actively interfering with their children's transfer to adulthood. I can understand that a parent never stops worrying about their child, but a decision like going into the military needs to be made by the child, not by the parent. None of these kids will be going in before they're 18 (without parental sign-off). An 18 year old boy has made the first step toward being a man when he takes on a decision like this on his own. Whether he decides to join or not, he and he alone has decided what he believes in and what he is willing to do for that belief, and any parent that attempts to make such a decision for him is denying him his birthright. Once upon a time, teenagers were treated like adults and they acted like adults. Now they are coddled nearly until their 30s.

My dad was actually agains my enlisting in the army, not because he was against the military at all (he held a reserve naval commission) but because he would have preferred that I went in as an officer, and he would especially have preferred that I didn't go infantry. However, I made the decision to enlist as a grunt, and I ended up in Iraq for Desert Storm. Sometimes I regret having chosen that path, and you could debate the necessity of Desert Storm every bit as much as you could the current situation, but in the end it was MY decision and as such, was one of the things that most shaped my life. These days, my service in that time and place is one of the things that I am most proud of.
46 posted on 06/03/2005 1:42:02 AM PDT by fr_freak
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To: FreedomCalls
The Air Force just in the last year forced out 20,000 airmen because they were overmanned. Retention in the AF is at an all-time high.

They should have built more planes instead.
47 posted on 06/03/2005 1:47:06 AM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth...)
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To: Lord Nelson; All

Have been reading through this thread and the responses amaze me - hence my directing this present remark to all.

Let's get a grip here, freepers. Remember...

(A) this is the ny SLIMES reporting this.

(B) the above bird-cage liner sophisticatedly (is that even a word???) leaves the impression that no-one in Congress has familial representation in the war. That is simply Not True, and - as in a previous response I wrote to ChurchillBuff - their familial representation is proportionally larger than is that of the total US Population / current Military force correlation.

(C) As for the "rich kids don't fight; the poor have to" canard???? Again, another lie; with roots in the leftist media propaganda Big Lie born in Vietnam. 58000 dead in that war, 8,000 of them were officers (14%).

And this b/s about the poor joining up for the money? Does anyone here (who's not military...) know how much money a buck private makes? Trust me, it's not for the money.

More Lies...Blacks and Hispanics doing the dying, LBJ doing the lying??? That was as false 35 years ago as it is today. Most of our military in Vietnam were volunteers; ALL of our military today is volunteer. Ck out the below link for Vietnam casualties:

http://www.archives.gov/research_room/research_topics/vietnam_war_casualty_lists/statistics.html#race

The above even has a statistic showing selective service (ie: draftees) deaths as part of the total - 17,000 out of 58,000 total deaths, or 29 percent. Blacks? 7,000 deaths, or 12 percent. Total Negro representation was 14 percent, at a time when their proportion in our population was 11 percent. Caucasian (amongst which Hispanics were counted...) - 50,000 deaths, or 86 percent.

I could go on, but please remember... We Freepers have to remember that anything coming from the media about anything will always have a slant. Sometimes the charges are so onerous that it rightly (and quickly) gets our Irish up... most times, though, the lies are fed and repeated to us in measured tones, whispered asides in our ears, imprinted with such an obviously reasonable delivery that we let our guard down to their seductiveness until we ourselves become repeaters of the diluted propaganda quip. Like babies having their tummies rubbed to go asleep... or frogs in a pot of water being slowly heated to boil...

This is all very simple, clear as Night & Day. Never trust the fourth estate, for they are become the Fifth Column. Never, Ever, Ever, EVER take the word of someone whose foundation stone in-whatever-passes-muster-as-their relativistic Truth-of-the-moment is universally anchored in the belief that America is Always Wrong.


48 posted on 06/03/2005 1:54:34 AM PDT by CGVet58 (God has granted us Liberty, and we owe Him Courage in return)
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To: SedVictaCatoni

Sir, you understand the situation perfectly and express yourself with clarity. Thank you.

America Victa! Semper Paratus! Sic Semper Tyrannis!


49 posted on 06/03/2005 1:57:50 AM PDT by CGVet58 (God has granted us Liberty, and we owe Him Courage in return)
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To: Mr. Rips
“Don't let any of these arm chair generals get to you. It's easy to talk the talk but how many have said there goodbyes to an indefinite deployment, it's not fun. It makes me sick to my stomach that over 1600 men and women have died for this foreign adventure.”

I guess I am just an armchair general.

Wars between the middle east and the west has been going on for thousands of years. If we win this as I hope we do, I think it is actually possible this over all fight will finally end.

The key to this war is that sharia law and freedom can not co-exist. This will force change to the religon, no one said it would be easy.

50 posted on 06/03/2005 1:58:19 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn
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