Skip to comments.Here come Chinese cars (Detroit alert!)
Posted on 06/11/2005 6:46:30 AM PDT by voletti
Korean cars gave Detroit fits in the late '90s by undercutting domestic small cars on price and outdoing them on quality -- then moving up into other segments. Autos from China could provide more lower-cost competition for the Big Three at a time when GM and Ford Motor Co. (F ) are already reeling. That could cost them, along with Chrysler (DCX ), more market share and prod them to move more of their own production offshore.
How fast can the Chinese gear up? The way things are going, it won't take 20 years to match Toyota Motor Corp. (TM ) quality levels, as it did for the Koreans. And with Chinese auto assembly workers earning $2 an hour -- vs. $22 in Korea and nearly $60 in the U.S. for wages and benefits -- it may not be long before China has the wherewithal to start selling competitively priced cars overseas. "The Chinese are probably five or six years away from being able to sell a competent low-end car," says auto analyst Maryann N. Keller.
The Chinese government is putting its heft behind the export push -- subsidizing the export drive of such local players as Chery and giving the likes of Honda big incentives. Beijing also is nudging foreign auto makers to divert investment into export production so local partners can become familiar with managing foreign-exchange risk and global supply chains. It's also pushing domestic companies such as Chery, Geely Auto, Brilliance China Automotive (CBA ), and Shanghai Automotive Industry to develop their own brands overseas.
(Excerpt) Read more at businessweek.com ...
Trees don't have souls.
And according to the Socialists, neither do you.
Yes, there's a lot of that to go around.
hmm buy american if you can. even whole foods who blathers on about local farmers buys massive amounts of produce from south america
the 96 cavalier had seven recalls. you got lucky!
You're getting warmer by talking economics! All that activity stimulating the economy! And the jobs...
State-Capitalism, Market-Socialism or just plain 'ol totalitarianism - take your pick.
The flag is still red but the elites (BTW they still call themselves Communists) love the color of money...
Look I'm not trying to start a fight and I'm not smug. I'm just being realistic.
I saw a recent study where they did an analysis of how long it would take the Chinese to catch up to the U.S. in terms of productivity and standard of living and GDP per capita and stuff like that. The answer was that even with the astronomical growth rate of the Chinese economy it would take well over 100 years. And that was based on the assumption that the growth rate is sustainable which it isn't.
Yes jobs are evaporating to India and SE Asia but the economy is still growing at 2-3% (like it pretty much always has) and the jobless rate is about 5% (like it pretty much always is) so you cannot argue that we are turning into a nation of hamburger flippers and bed pans. It is simply not true.
Capitalist societies require that some businesses and ventures will fail so that the best will succeed. If we make a conscious decision to interfere with that process we will all suffer in the long run. It's the old buggy whip story. You cannot protect workers in buggy whip factories forever once the automobile is invented. The demand for the product fall to zero and those people have to find other work. Some of the the sons and daughters of the sons and daughters of those buggy whip workers are now setting in front of CAD machines designing GPS displays for American automobiles.
Change is just the price we pay for progress. People will be displaced and they will have to adapt. That is painful but in the long run it is the reason this is the greatest country on God's green earth.
"There was a time when buying an American car meant all of the part in the car were American made also.
Nafta changed all of that. So Amercian car components are imported from every place on the planet."
Detroit was incorporating large quantities and percentages of foriegn-made parts well before NAFTA. You can say that is harmful if you like, but it is wrong to blame NAFTA.
The human labor is not a material object which can be transported and stored. If the living trees had to be directly involved in the process of production as aware beings they would be special!
In your analogy the lumber is analogical to the parts of human body. So maybe you had in mind the transplants? Certainly not the labor.
Actually they do. The notion of the soul is misunderstood in in last few generations.
Every living being has a soul. You can make it more tangible by pondering on the old definition of death as separation of soul and body. The dead tree is soulless. Or in other example - your soul is everything in you what is not you body. The other name for soul is psyche/subjectivity/me (like in psychology).
There are three basic types of souls - rational like the ones of men, aware but irrational like the ones of animal, and vegetative like the ones of plants.
Since the life and soul is a special gift from God, there are moral rules extended to living animals and maybe even to plants.
But you are right in feeling that Redcloak's analogy is not appropriate - the lumber is corresponds to the human body parts and not to the personal activity which constitutes the labor.
No, I'm stating that our Constitution is as ignored and obsolete as the Liberty Bell. Like the bell it is a sentimental but neglected symbol of the greatest political experiment in history.
These countries are well on their way to owning us. Given the Globalist mindset the only competitive thing we can do we are doing, i.e. opening our borders to an influx of cheap labor in order to accelerate the decline of American wages.
Note that these represent most of the growth industries in our once proud nation. The remaining one is health care and that will be unionized sooner than you probably think.
Similar "eat s*&^ and die" sentiments are due to Ford Motor, Briggs & Stratton, and Chrysler.
They put plants over there and got ripped off.
boo hoo. Too bad, so sad.
American Motors had the worst IR of any US automaker, and in its Kenosha (WI) operation, it was shocking. Eventually AMC wound up with 1 UAW steward for every 10 direct-labor people...and every 2 weeks there was another newspaper report featuring the UAW Local's president....
Then AMC went away and Chrysler entered the scene. Chrysler told the union: look--we say what we mean and we mean what we say. Do the same for us.
Poof!! No more IR problems.
Of course, a couple of years' un- or under-employment also had an impact on the labor union folks.
But GM? They're hopeless. After the SUV's and the Corvette, which GM product line is 'top of the class?'
None. Nobody wants to buy their product.
But all you hear is that "it's the UAW's fault." In the real world, some things ARE the UAW's fault--but not lack of design/engineering imagination...
It's a commonplace in manufacturing that unless the design-engineers work VERY closely with the manufacturing and production management/engineers, there WILL be problems with the product.
That may be the case with the FoMoCo 500.
Having said that, I've driven Chrysler, GM, and FoMoCo products WAY past 150K miles and 10 years--then the wear-parts start, ah, wearing.
Currently have 2 FoMoCo's--one 15 years old, one 5. Both over 85K on the clock. Replace only small wear-parts.
No other problems.
China is now an excellent example of fascism--with ruling families.
Your picture of Capitalists is flawed--you ascribe the virtues of the IDEAL capitalist to all of them.
Wrong guess, my man. The human condition guaran-frickin-tees that some "capitalists" will be nasty little creatures, and encounter great success due to this.
Similarly, some 'workers' will be thieves.
Were the world as clean as your post indicates, this thread would only have 4 ripostes.
I drove a Thunderbird back in the mid-eighties and into the nineties. It had 250K miles on it when the speedometer gave out.
I might still be driving it, but a young mother leaning over her seat to scold kids whacked me and totaled the car out. ;o)
Seems to be a lot of that goin' around! ;o)
Rand=Worship of Capital, Marx=Worship of State.
Each chooses an alternative god and consequently derogates man.
It was for good reason that Bill Buckley threw Rand out of civilized conservative circles.
That's probably true, although the overall Chinese economy will be bigger than ours sometime before 2050. It's just that they have far more people.
Speaking of people, China has determined that the rural regions of China can only sustain a population of 100 million. There are 500 million there now.
Over the next 15 years, they plan to relocate 400 million people from rural China into expanded megacities giving them an almost unlimited supply of cheap labor.
They are going to be very difficult to compete with. Ironically, the thing that could slow them down is political reform. Democracy is messy. Fascist planning and enforcement is far more efficient assuming the correct economic decisions are made.
True enough but if the GDP/capita is increasing (and it is) and the unemployment is stable (and it is) than you simply cannot argue that, on the average, things are not getting better for average Americans. That doesn't help the poor guy who loses his job in Michigan. He is probably going to have to move to Alabama or lower his standard of living. That is sad. But it is a fact.
Like I said, it is the price we pay for progress and economic growth. Countries that have interfered with the natural destruction/renewal of free capitalism and tried to replace it with a managed economy have universally failed with great human suffering and loss of life. We don't need it.
Detroit News also states that each autoworker job has another 7 jobs attached--as you stated--in retail selling, servicing--not to mention supplying auto companies with parts and services (CPA, legal, etc.)
So GM's annoucement of -25,000 jobs is really -175,000 jobs nationally.
You may claim that some tree is your father. Please don't claim the same for the rest of us.
Your inability to see humans as distinct from trees is a clear indicator that one should not take your "thoughts" seriously.
And the same applies to Walter Williams, by the way...
...financed by debt, not saved capital.
That's a REALLY big difference.
At this point, the US consumer is borrowing most of their expenditures.
And the debt is held by PRChina and Japan--so it's "vendor financing."
And if you believe the line of crap that the Fortune 100 sold to GWBush, all that "capitalism" stuff going on in China will suddenly make the country into a nice democratic republic.
Only a few years from now...just you wait...it's coming...right on the horizon....hundreds of millions of consumers...largetst market in the Universe...
Exactly... No profits, no jobs.. Companies exsist for one reason and that is to provide a service. It is not a social welfare agency....
No, Willie, you're missing the point. There is no "versus". All people have rights. Laborers are not just laborers. They are investors, consumers, and not infrequently, business owners themselves. Your construct of "capitalists" and "laborers" describes a mercantile, proto-capitalist society where rule of law and property rights have not yet taken hold - sort of like China, don't you think?
Corporations exist as legal entities to allow business creators to pool their resources while, yes - limiting their liability. If my business fails and I can no longer afford to hire you or pay back your investment in my business, that does not give you the right to the keys to my private car. Risk is...risky. Reward is for those who take it.
No kidding - you mean people aren't perfect? Of course they are not. More importantly, though, and more to my point - people are not perfectable, either. The perfectability of man and society is the central conceit of every nasty, destructive ideology in human history. It is Socialism's North Star.
Capitalism is not perfect, nor is it perfectable - it just happens to ensure the best possible life for all people, who, as I keep reminding you all, are not segmented into warring tribes of "capitalists" and "laborers". Get out of the 19th century, man. Your average worker today is richer than the average business owner 100 years ago. He or she is also a consumer, an investor (a stakeholder), and a property owner.
It is the rule of law - fairly applied according to objective principles that will protect people from each other's excesses and wrongdoings. The fact that our laws and our courts have gone off the rails is a political, not an economic problem.
Bill Buckley did nothing of the sort. She got herself disinvited to the Conservative movement by being personally insufferable - argumentative, didactic, and profoundly anti-religious. Buckley supports now (and supported then) the free market as a means of economic organization no less than Rand. However, the founder of National Review, like Kilpatrick, Chambers, and others of the same generation, recognized that that human needs had dimensions exteral to commerce, spirituality chiefly among them. Love of Freedom does not constitute "Capital worship". There are many other things to love, and most people (passe Ms. Rand) choose to love them also.
While I don't subscribe to it, I respect your view of nature, but I fear that the youth may confuse it with Druidism. I would guess that you aren't an animist, and your beliefs protect you from the depredations of paganism and other similar superstitions.
I have always been a loyal "buy American" guy. My thanks for this has been crappy cars. It doesn't matter if you are buying luxury or economy American cars don't compete in any sectors.
We are in the market for a new car right now and have not looked at any from an American car company. I have looked at several made in the USA by foreign companies.
GDP is, of course, strictly a quantitative measure and tells absolutely nothing about the nature of the "products".
The new buildings in my area (and in areas I travel through) are for the most part hospitals, clinics, schools or school expansions, and government buildings. The boarded up buildings are former mfg or wholesaling operations.
Furthermore, when billion dollar industries such as pornography, pet supplies, nursing homes, fast foods, high end real estate, etc. are considered then the "strength" trend of our nation appears troubling to say the least. It's also instructive to examine the makeup, let alone the quantity, of our measly exports.
Finally, what the GDP (or GNP before it) said yesterday, says today, and will say tomorrow about the economic status of "the average American" is purely inferential.
IMHO, you'd be well advised to set aside the government statistics and trust your eyes and good intellect.
No, it is the Descartes view that animals are soulless machines who do not feel the pain which is a superstition.
Anyone who owns a dog and is not a psychopath, knows that animals have psyche/soul. One knows it through the direct perception and empathy. Descartes was a learned fool!
The cruelty toward animals is a criminal offence in USA.
Welcome to Ohio.
Even out here in the Peoples Republic of California, surely the most business unfriendly state in the nation, you see very little of that. I think in your case you are just seeing the reduction in manufacturing business in a state that is basically industrial, or once was. It isn't like that out here and I don't think it is like that in the South, Southeast and Southwest. Florida is booming that's for sure.
And as to the makeup of the GDP. You are right but people buy what people want not what you and I would want for them. That's life. The alternative has been tried many times and it fails miserably. Humans aren't perfect but they're all we've got.
Free trade bump! People who work in the US auto industry, what is left of it with just 2 companies remaining, are worse than buggy whip employees. There is no way any american auto worker can be competitive with the communist chinese.
Actually, Bill Buckley DID kick her out--specifically, at a NYC cocktail (or dinner) party. Ms. Rand's personality may have been a motivator--but hardly sufficient for the 'cleansing' he executed.
You picked it up correctly, though: Rand and Buckley disagreed over the nature of God. Bill had the right one.
Frankly, you should look at the FoMoCo Taurus, assuming that the size, etc., are in your scope.
This will be the last year they produce it--and that means that it's damn near bug-free--lotsa practice, you know.
I'm not shilling for FoMoCo, except I have one of them and am VERY pleased with it. Far more than I expected, to be honest.
I agree, and St. Francis of Assisi is even the patron saint of animals. While we have dominion over them (and all of nature), we should still be good stewards. Waste and needless suffering should be avoided.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... hold on, now...
Don't hang that on me...
That's YOUR construct, not mine...
I am not opposed to capitalism or capitalists at all.
As a matter of fact, as a true conservative, I am myself a stockholding capitalist.
However, I DO have objections to transnational corporatism and the free traitor corporatists who wield undue influence over government policies for their own gain and to the detriment of the American People.
"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains."
--Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. ME 14:119
You're asking a corporate welfare lobbyist to understand real capitalism. I respect your efforts, but there's too much money to be made selling out America to get them to change.
That said, I would by a US made car for a couple of grand more, IF it were equal in quality AND service.
Before anyone gets all upset, I have owned my 72 Demon since purchased new in October of 71. And it has been driven to work every day since that time.