Court rules that Holocaust survivors' lawsuit against the Vatican can proceed

Catholic News Agency ^ | Jun. 15, 2005

[kosta50]

many of the accusations levelled against the Church on this thread are baseless

Okay, so what is your version?

[a freedom-loving italian]

In historical term it is indeed recent history.

Thanks most to the firm opposition of the Pope-King, Italy has manage to unite Herself only very recently. The Kingdom if Italy was born on 17 March 1861, less than 150 years ago. We conquered the Papal States and entered Rome on 20 September 1870. Since then the Pope has declared himself a "detainee" of the Kingdom, has refused any offer to settle the dispute with the King Vittorio Emanuele II and has fought very actively against the new Kingdom.

Among other provocative actions, the Pope called the Vatican Council I where the dogma of "infallibility of the Pope" was established. In addition, he threatened to excommunicate every Roman Catholic who dared to vote in the national elections.

As a result, Italian Catholics were asked to decide between loyalty to the Pope and loyalty to the Home Country.

The dispute between Italy and the Pope was not settled until a new creeping leader entered the political arena: Mr Benito Mussolini, the Duce of Italy. Mussolini and the Pope signed the so-called "Lateran Pacts" in 1929 which set the birth of a new "personal" state for the Pope, the Vatican, and established the Roman Catholic as the state religion of Italy. Of course that was a huge political victory for the dictator Mussolini as he gained the support of every Catholic in Italy.

Ok, that's enough, if you want more just ask.

[indcons]

First of all, that was not "official state policy", it was only a speech. Second of all, the "forced conversions" were actually Serb peasants who ran to the aid of the Church in order to protect themselves from Ustashi attacks.

LOL.....that's the funniest "explanation" I have read on this thread. Thanks for the laughs.

[Diocletian]

You find the truth funny?

[Lion in Winter]

Holocaust deniers are never FUNNY.

diocletian, you need to do some soul searching about your positions on the Yugoslavian holocaust and the Jasenovic concentration camps, the forced conversions, the mass murder of babies and children and murders of adult non-Croatians.... YOU ARE IN SERIOUS DENIAL.

Our prayers are with you. You need help.

[Lion in Winter]

I would be interested in your comments regarding the disturbing pictures of the nuns with the captive children and the nazi/utaschia officials at the concentration camp in Croatia.

We all know that nazis killed many clergy of all types in WWII... including many, many nuns and RC priests as well as those of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Wonder why in Croatia there were any, so-called, RC clergy involved with nazis??? Surely, the Croatians knew that the nazis were the enemy of ALL REAL CHRISTIANS.

I think the nazis were able to find weak links in almost every group by appealing to that groups highest level of hate toward those they found different than themselves.

In the Yugoslavian case, this appears to be just what the nazis were able to achieve. Use racial and religious troubles or differences to get co-operation from certain Croatians.

In the end, the nazis LOST and all Yugoslavia became commie. Another group of Christian haters took over.

Lose, lose situation for all Christians, EOC and RCC. And, for the Jews and Gypsies as well.

What a shame.

[zagor-te-nej]

Between 1941 and 1945 more then 20000 children (most of them Serbian children) were murdered in so-called Independent State of Croatia.

http://www.jasenovac.info/cd/


“John 16:1
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.”

[zagor-te-nej]

He is (probably) beyond help, but one can always hope!

And, I hate to correct you but it is Jasenovac not Jasenovic.

http://www.jasenovac.info/cd/index_en.html

Jasen is ash tree.

[Lion in Winter]

My spelling is always a problem. I think I was spelling it that way because I think so many Yugoslavian names seem to end in 'IC'.

Sorry, not Slavic myself.... just interested in WWII and the holocaust because I was a young fellow, a teen at the time and over the years have known so many survivors. No Yugoslavians ones though.

Maybe that was because Tito covered so much about it up, to keep peace and control over all sides. And so few Serbians came to America after the war. At least, that is my impression of it.

Thanks for the post, by the way.

[Lion in Winter]

zagor-te-nej: Thank you for the link. I finally found the English version button. I will read more on the site tomorrow.

Gipper gal, please check out the link on zagor-te-nej's post. English version link button is at the bottom of the page. There is much information on that site. Good night, gal.

[Diocletian]

Excuse me?

I never denied that people were killed at Jasenovac.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

However, there is a lot of incorrect accusations on this thread that needed to be corrected.

[Diocletian]

That is an incorrect figure.

[Lion in Winter]

You wrote:

Quoting DTA

"Croatia was the sole NAzi country with a concentration camp FOR CHILDREN, run by RC nuns

Then, you wrote in your own words:

"Another falsehood."

161 posted on 06/17/2005 5:07:02 PM EDT by Diocletian

You stated it was a falshood that any nuns were involved in that concentration camp for children. You still have NOT accepted those pictures of the so- called nuns as proof... you ARE in denial.

Just face it... wrong was done and NOW, justice needs to be served. Those dead babies and children were real!! SOMEBODY needs to PAY whether it is money or just having the TRUTH told at long last!!

Time has not healed these wounds because SOME people refuse to accept that this nazi evil happened in Croatia and some so-called RC clergy were involved.

IT IS GET REAL TIME!!

[Lion in Winter]

Incorrect figure????

If it was 2 or 2 thousand... SO WHAT?

There are THOUSANDS of dead babies and children and you squibble over numbers.

Is there any hope for you on this planet????

[Diocletian]

Clergy were not involved in massacres or running concentration camps.

A picture proves nothing.

Please source your accusations or drop them.

[zagor-te-nej]

Dragoje Lukic, one of the Serbian children who survived war wrote book “War and children of Kozara” http://www.jasenovac.info/cd/biblioteka/djeca_kozare/index_l.html Interesting thing,: on 26 August 1942 he was liberated from concentration camp Jasterbarsko. He compiled list with names of 23.858 Serbian boys and girls, between cradle and 14 years old -- killed by Croats and Muslim.

This is
Partial Register for around 20,000 Serbian, Jewish, Roma and other murdered children. Courtesy of the Museum of the Victims of Genocide, Belgrade, Serbia
Date is taken from: http://www.jasenovac.info/cd/zrtve/index_en.html

Warning: some (non-ustase) could find these photos disturbing

Note: Data are not of final nature, and have following structure: • Name of murdered child
• Name of parent
• Last name
• Place of origin
• Year of birth
• Year of death
• Place where the child is murdered
• Who are the perpetrators

[Diocletian]

He compiled list with names of 23.858 Serbian boys and girls, between cradle and 14 years old -- killed by Croats and Muslim.

Didn't you suggest that these were all killed at Jasenovac?

[zagor-te-nej]

“23.858 Serbian boys and girls, between cradle and 14 years old -- killed by Croats and Muslim. “

According to Dragoje Lukic from Kozara they were sent to Croat death camps, and Croats had more then one death camp for Serbs.

This is testimony of Mr. Gojko Knezevic. He is one of few people who managed to survive Jasenovac,

“I still dream of torture and cries”
http://www.nezavisne.com/revija/tekst2-050418.php

Link is in Serbian language, but you can read it – you call that language Croatian.

He and his family were sent to Jasenovac. He was watching how his mother was killed trying to save his sister. What happened, when they arrived in Jasenovac, one of the ustasa tried to take his little sister (born in April 1942) from her mother. She was strong and she defended her child. Then, dozen of those animals attacked poor women, snatched baby and throw her in the air -- and caught her body on the bayonet. His mother, Jovanka, was also killed - they amputate her breast.

Afterwards, Gojko was sent to Jasterebarsko concentration camp run by roman-catholic nuns. There were no doctors in the camp, food was terrible and they were tortured daily. Nuns had specialty - biting children with thin stick previously immersed in salt water or vinegar. This way wounds will heal slowly.
There he, and other children were converted. Every morning, nuns would take them to church service and if some of the children did not know to cross in roman-catholic way they would bit them. His estimate is that some 80% of the children were killed there.

11 years old (at that time) Drago Sormaz, was also sent to Jasenovac. Children in the camp were so hungry that they ate grass.

As I said:
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.”

[Diocletian]

Are you saying that all children who were killed were killed at Death Camps?

Also, were all killed children killed by the Ustashe?

Lastly, this topic is a bit off-topic since it deals with the supposed role of the Church during this time.

[zagor-te-nej]

What German Nazis and Italian fascists) had to say about ustasa animals:
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/u-allies.html

Children murdered in the Independent State of Croatia 1941-1945
http://www.jasenovac.info/cd/zrtve/deca-zrtve/index_en.html

Jasenovac Industry of Death: Recommended links and resources
http://www.jasenovac.info/cd/veze/index_en.html