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Billy Grahm denies that Christ is the only way to salvation.
Radio Broadcast of Cross Talk America ^ | May 11 05 | Dr. David DiCano

Posted on 07/01/2005 9:55:00 AM PDT by Rhadaghast

May 11, 2005 Host: Vic Eliason Topic: False Doctrine Guest: David DiCanio Description: Dr. David DiCanio is Pastor of Columbine Free Presbyterian Church in Columbine, Colorado, and is involved in Christian Media, which produces television-style documentaries on religious trends and movements. Vic Eliason presents two audio cuts. One features Robert Schuller being interviewed by Dr. David DiCanio after giving a keynote address at the 2004 National Association of Evangelicals meeting. The other cut features Robert Schuller interviewing Billy Graham. The two discuss their views concerning how people are saved.

Dr. DiCanio interacts with callers to discuss the opinions expressed by Schuller and Graham and the current move of some leaders in Christianity to preach a gospel that teaches salvation apart from a conscious, biblical awareness of Christ as the only way to God.

Contact Info: info@thechristianmedia.com www.thechristianmedia.com

Rare recordings of great preachers of the past are posted by Dr. DiCanio's church at

http://www.sermonaudio.com/columbine Listen: RealAudio Windows Media


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: billygraham; christalone; clergylaityntwk; donargue; donjones; john146; nattlcnclochurches; postedtowrongforum
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To: Tree of Liberty

There are also those who have a child like spirit, of which the Kingdom of God is made. He looks at our heart and He precives us like no one else can, because He judges the intentions of our hearts.


101 posted on 07/01/2005 10:43:42 AM PDT by marmar (Even though I may look different then you...my blood runs red, white and blue.....)
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To: Tree of Liberty

yes, maybe its me just not wanting to think God has previously condemned them. I'm open to thinking I dont know it all.

But to see the love of Jesus some mentally retarded people have or others with difficulties does not seem right...so for me I choose to believe Gods love is great enough for them.

And yes, see my profile, I am a God is Justice kind of Christian.


102 posted on 07/01/2005 10:44:48 AM PDT by wallcrawlr ( Moderates = You're the wise middle. Like a spare tire around the fat waist of society.)
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To: sandbar
The bible says that those under the age of reasoning will be saved regardless.
Which scripture (I'm not doubting exactly, but where does it say that?)
susie
103 posted on 07/01/2005 10:44:53 AM PDT by brytlea (Yes, there are Republican teachers...)
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To: sandbar

"I think the age is 12 or so, but no I don't have the exact scripture."

I am somewhat familiar with the Bible and don't ever recall reading such a thing.

"Now are you going to seize the opportunity to be a jerk and state how incredibly wrong I am?"

Well, you kinda screwed up my opportunity to do that right there didn't you? So who is the jerk? ;-)

"Are you are a Christian wishing to educate me, or a non-Christian wishing to belittle me?"

I am a non-Chrisitan looking for some education.


104 posted on 07/01/2005 10:45:33 AM PDT by Avenger
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To: inkling

I would think you would have got an "inkling" from the Clinton love fest at his last "Government sponsored" crusade.


105 posted on 07/01/2005 10:45:38 AM PDT by Sweetjustusnow (Help Kill Senate Bill 54....NOW. Another Property Rights Infringement)
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To: Mark in the Old South
Is it true that he had the Clintons appear with him in his Kansas City appearance?

Carolyn

106 posted on 07/01/2005 10:46:45 AM PDT by CDHart (The world has become a lunatic asylum and the lunatics are in charge.)
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To: Rhadaghast

..... tell me it isn't so ping


107 posted on 07/01/2005 10:47:05 AM PDT by SnarlinCubBear (I should like to spend my whole life traveling, if I could borrow another life to spend at home.)
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To: k2blader

God says he will have mercy upon who he will have mercy...

Do you think that a knowledge of the creator from nature is enough for salvation?

Then, why Jesus?


108 posted on 07/01/2005 10:47:48 AM PDT by cherrytoes (Life is - you know...)
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To: k2blader
Some may consider me a "heretic" for saying this, but I don't believe it can be said with certainty that people who die *without* ever hearing of Jesus Christ (the gospel message) are going to hell.

How I usually deal with this is to say that Jesus is the only provision given by the Father so that people can be assured of eternal life. It is clearly *not* for us to declare who actually goes to heaven and who goes to hell. All we can do is preach the gospel. It is entirely God's responsibility to decide who goes where.

My personal hope is that God finds a way to redeem all of mankind, but I have nothing in the Bible that gives me reason to believe that's the case. Again, if someone wants to go to heaven, the only assurance the New Testament can give them is through faith in Christ. There's no other provision made by which a man can be saved.

109 posted on 07/01/2005 10:48:09 AM PDT by kezekiel
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To: Mulch
Respectfully, you just don't understand Christian doctrine. Consider this: Would a person who has never heard of gravity be spared if he stepped off a ten-story building?

From tripping over a couple steps days, months or years before the possibility of that event even occurring...the person would understand gravity before he or she knew what gravity was. [I like it to how my 1 yr old carefully gets down onto the floor, after he propped himself up to stand. He only had to be careless a couple of times (with someone there to catch him of course) to understand balance and the force of gravity.] That experience alone would render the possibility of stepping off a 10 story building highly unlikely.

110 posted on 07/01/2005 10:48:34 AM PDT by BureaucratusMaximus (Socialists are blessed with the desire to serve others. That's why most of them work @ McDonalds)
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To: Avenger

>>That would be interesting. Where does it say that?

My thought as well. I Corinthians 7:14 calls the children of at least one believing parent "holy" so I think these children would be saved. I don't think that anything can be concluded Biblically about the children of unbelievers.


111 posted on 07/01/2005 10:48:43 AM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: k2blader

Personally, I believe that is what the reverend was trying to say.


112 posted on 07/01/2005 10:48:53 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: Kirkwood

Have you read the Chronicles of Narnia?

C. S. Lewis has a character that follows Tass (which is the other evil religion). Well, during the book The Last Battle, the followers of Aslan (Christ) go through this barn door to heaven. When they are in heaven they see this follower of Tass and ask how he got there. He says something like that he was always trying to do the right thing, and that he thought Tass was the correct god. However, when he got through the door he realized that he was really trying to follow Aslan all along.

Somehow after this character got to Heaven he got a choice to follow God.

I don't know if I explained it correctly. However, I think what C. S. Lewis is saying is that people who have never been exposed to Christ in this world will be given a final chance to follow Christ in Heaven. I also recall reading in the Bible that somehow everyone will be given a choice to follow God.


113 posted on 07/01/2005 10:50:45 AM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: Avenger

There is no Age of Reason in the Bible. God didn't create this process to be complicated. Christians are to spread the Gospel so that people may hear and be Saved. There is only one way to Heaven and that is through Christ. We reject the Gospel and are imperiled by our decision.


114 posted on 07/01/2005 10:50:59 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Sweetjustusnow
I would think you would have got an "inkling" from the Clinton love fest at his last "Government sponsored" crusade.

Yeah, what was a Christian doing talking to a sinner?! Christ would NEVER... oh, wait a minute.

I don't agree with all Graham's comments that night, but I'm not going to encourage scurrilous rumours or false witness as a result. Again, where's the transcript? Why are so many so eager to judge without solid evidence?

Sorry, but I'm not going to race with my Zippo to this particular witch-burning, thanks.

115 posted on 07/01/2005 10:51:50 AM PDT by inkling
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To: Blood of Tyrants

I can't find it right now. But in John it says Christ will judge ALL THE NATIONS, and many of them are pagan, so I assume they have a chance to accept him.


116 posted on 07/01/2005 10:52:07 AM PDT by johnb838 (Adios, liberal mofos!)
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To: wallcrawlr
I am a God is Justice kind of Christian.

As am I. I do see justice and mercy as one in the same, though.

I believe we can understand His thinking since He's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and we have numerous examples of how He acts.

I think it's very likely that they will be welcomed into His Kingdom, but I try not to presume how He'll decide since I then risk molding Him into the God I want, rather than the God He is.

117 posted on 07/01/2005 10:54:49 AM PDT by Tree of Liberty (requiescat in pace, President Reagan)
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To: bayourod
There isn't any mention of Heaven before Christ is there?

2 Kings, 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

118 posted on 07/01/2005 10:55:02 AM PDT by stevio (Red-Blooded American Male (NRA))
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Comment #119 Removed by Moderator

To: inkling
Yeah, what was a Christian doing talking to a sinner?! Christ would NEVER... oh, wait a minute.

It isn't about talking with sinners, it's about what was said. Christ never minced words in telling someone that they're doing wrong. He's been known to bang some heads together to get the point across, too.

120 posted on 07/01/2005 10:56:38 AM PDT by Tree of Liberty (requiescat in pace, President Reagan)
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To: AppyPappy

That sounds rather like you have once chance..... only one. If you are "saved" and then you back slide you are destined for hell because you probably never meant it anyway.

I don't think so.


121 posted on 07/01/2005 10:56:45 AM PDT by Jaded (Hell sometimes has fluorescent lighting and a trumpet.)
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To: Chicago Conservative
Please don't say your speaking for Catholics.
122 posted on 07/01/2005 10:57:37 AM PDT by Mulch (tm)
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To: CDHart
I think I heard that. I don't make much of that only because Graham has been something of a court Chaplin to the presidency ever since LBJ. He has always been something of a courtier in regard to this IMHO. A little too much PR and public grand standing when it comes to the Presidency. Besides who is in desperate need of a Priest more than Clintoon?
123 posted on 07/01/2005 10:58:19 AM PDT by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: Rhadaghast

kinda puts that whole klintoon thingy in a new perspective under and a new light doesn't it???


124 posted on 07/01/2005 10:58:43 AM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist )
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To: inkling

I don't see this thread as any "witch hunt". It's just the ruminations over another pc statement uttered by Billy Grahm. This is nothing new out of him. He has been a Democrat all his life and has made numerous pc statements through out his ministry.

There are links posted to the audio.


125 posted on 07/01/2005 10:59:10 AM PDT by Sweetjustusnow (Help Kill Senate Bill 54....NOW. Another Property Rights Infringement)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
"Well, there is one place in the Bible where it says that if you were never told of the Good News, that you will be judged by a standard that only God can know."

That's a great way to pparaphrase it, actually. It's Romans 1.

126 posted on 07/01/2005 11:00:36 AM PDT by oprahstheantichrist (...rethinking the Oprah thing. Watch Soros closely.)
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To: Chicago Conservative

You have to know about Jesus to be "Saved". "Saved" refers to being Saved from your sins, not just going to Heaven. Sin just doesn't wash off in the rain. It takes the blood of Jesus.

There is no point in which an unbeliever "loses" his sins unless it occurs in the afterlife. See Romans3

Rom 3:7-26
(7) For if in my lie the truth has more abounded to His glory why am I still judged as a sinner?
(8) And not rather, (as we are wrongly accused, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do bad things that good may come? Their condemnation is just.
(9) What then? Do we excel? No, in no way; for we have before charged both Jews and Greeks all with being under sin,
(10) as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one;
(11) there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."
(12) "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."
(19) But we know that whatever things the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law; so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be under judgment before God,
(20) because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.
(21) But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets;
(22) even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,
(23) for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
(24) being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
(25) whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;
(26) for the display of His righteousness at this time, for Him to be just and, forgiving the one being of the faith of Jesus.


127 posted on 07/01/2005 11:01:06 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Tree of Liberty
Look, I think everyone here views Bubba and Hill as frauds. As a Christian I certainly hope they are saved, but that is ultimately up to God, not me. I was most disgusted not by the comments made at the event, but the appearance of gloryhound politics at a crusade. Christ should have been the only news story that day, not Graham nor the Clintons.

Nevertheless, the Clintons could use as much exposure to men of God as possible and I hope God uses that exposure to draw them to Him.

128 posted on 07/01/2005 11:01:22 AM PDT by inkling
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To: Chicago Conservative

I think at some point everyone will be given an opportunity to follow Christ.

I think somehow those that don't hear about Christ on earth, I think they will be given an opportunity to follow him after death. This is my opinion.

As for witnessing to non-believers, I just go with:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He sent His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.


129 posted on 07/01/2005 11:01:44 AM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: Avenger

>>>I am a non-Chrisitan looking for some education.>>>

I am a Christian needing some education myself. Good thing being a Christian doesn't have to mean you have the entire Bible memorized. But I will do some research and get back with you.


130 posted on 07/01/2005 11:01:55 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: Jaded
If you are "saved" and then you back slide you are destined for hell because you probably never meant it anyway.

If you choose to reject the Gospel, you are condemned.

131 posted on 07/01/2005 11:02:02 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Sweetjustusnow
It's just the ruminations over another pc statement uttered by Billy Grahm.

But there's no transcript for this "pc statement"? No evidence at all? That's all I'm asking for, yet no one's providing it.

132 posted on 07/01/2005 11:02:28 AM PDT by inkling
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To: Jaded
All I have to say is I thank God for His mercy....if He wasn't merciful......we would all fry........
133 posted on 07/01/2005 11:03:05 AM PDT by marmar (Even though I may look different then you...my blood runs red, white and blue.....)
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To: inkling

Why would you believe a transcript, if you don't believe what you hear when you listen to the interview? Just curious.


134 posted on 07/01/2005 11:03:13 AM PDT by cherrytoes (Life is - you know...)
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To: inkling

why arent you able to listen to it?


135 posted on 07/01/2005 11:05:35 AM PDT by wallcrawlr ( Moderates = You're the wise middle. Like a spare tire around the fat waist of society.)
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To: wallcrawlr; cherrytoes

I have no speakers.


136 posted on 07/01/2005 11:06:49 AM PDT by inkling
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To: My2Cents
My concern for his flock is the real possibility he has been lying all these years. These hirelings have been doing their work in the Episcopalian Church for a generation or two. They sound fine in the pulpit but work against the faith behind the scenes.

You better take a hard look at what he has been doing out of your hearing range, before you give him a pass. If I recall Graham is Presbyterian? Gee I wonder what flavor? Could it be the same one that is sponsoring Pro Abortion rallies, calling Israel a terrorist state, considering making active homosexuals ministers and granting same sex benefits and marriage ceremonies?

As a former Episcopalian now Catholic I can assure these types do all sorts of damage and your average pew warmer never has a clue until it is too late.
137 posted on 07/01/2005 11:07:34 AM PDT by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: cherrytoes

You said: Then it would be better to not have missionaries.


Except for the Great Commission (Go ye therefore into all nations....) you might be right.


138 posted on 07/01/2005 11:08:12 AM PDT by NCLaw441
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To: inkling

got it.

the site doesnt look like it supports transcripts so youre prob out of luck. youll just need to go by what others are saying after listening and make your own judgement.


139 posted on 07/01/2005 11:08:12 AM PDT by wallcrawlr ( Moderates = You're the wise middle. Like a spare tire around the fat waist of society.)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
Jesus has just been downgraded by none other than Billy Graham. Unbelievable.

He may have been referring to Romans 1:20 ("For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.") and 2:15 ("...since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.").

140 posted on 07/01/2005 11:10:03 AM PDT by kezekiel
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To: All

Graham has fallen away from orthodox Christianity.

And, those who say these quotes are isolated are wrong.

He has said this heresy for years.

May 31, 1997 interview with Robert Schuller: "I've met people in various parts of the world...that have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God. So, there you have it. The world's most famous evangelist teaches that no one needs Jesus to be saved and enter the Kingdom of Heaven. They're already members of the Body of Christ whether they know it or not! All they have to do is believe in a God."

"I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost--were going to hell. I no longer believe that. I believe that there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God--through nature, for instance." (McCall Magazine Jan. 1987).

"I respect other paths to God," (Billy Graham, Parade Magazine, Oct 20th 1996)

--

IOW, all you need to do is believe in a God to be saved. You don't need Jesus.

Frankly, I am willing to accept that God can save anybody he wants to even if they do not accept Christ. The Jews who had faith in God were saved because they had faith in God, and Christ was the Word involved in creation. Christ is God, not just the Son. So, in effect, the OT saints had faith in Christ, too, though they did not realize it. But, Graham goes far beyond this and says that God WILL save anyone who has never heard of Jesus Christ. This is NOT a position that can be proven from Scripture.

There is no Scriptural support for the idea that one today will go to heaven if they believe in any sort of heathen god, or as Graham put it, "other paths to God." No, you must believe in the one true God, which is only the Christian God. Not the Buddhist God. Not the Muslim or the Hindu. There is a reason why the Jews of today are not saved. They reject Jesus Christ, one of the members of the trinity, so in effect the Jews do not believe in the one true God either because their God is missing one of the members of the trinity.

If Scripture said those who only believe in a god will be saved, then orthodox Christianity has missed something. Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life. NO MAN.....NO MAN comes to the father except through him. NOBODY.

Scripture doesn't say there are exceptions for that poor native in Africa who has never heard the Gospel. If he hasn't heard the Gospel, he is going to hell because he doesn't believe in the truth. It doesn't matter that he hasn't heard it. Persisting in a rejection of Christ will result in damnation. And, even if you haven't heard the Gospel, Romans 1 makes abundantly clear you still are guilty before God because nature itself cries out the truth of God, including the trinity...

There is nothing in Scripture that indicates otherwise.

Eventually, Romans 11 or so indicates that God will deal more with the Jews and even perhaps save all of them, but they are not saved as of yet because they have REJECTED Christ just like everybody, so their understanding of the one true God is flawed. And, even those who have never heard of Christ, reject in their hearts because they choose evil or false religions.

Billy Graham is outside orthodox Christianity on this matter.


141 posted on 07/01/2005 11:11:15 AM PDT by rwfromkansas (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=rwfromkansas)
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To: wallcrawlr

Yes, I should have mentioned earlier I couldn't listen! Sorry I wasn't clear about that.


142 posted on 07/01/2005 11:12:50 AM PDT by inkling
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To: NCLaw441

There are people posting on this thread, claiming to be christian, that think salvation can come without faith in Jesus Christ. Some of them think that if unbelievers have never heard the gospel message, they will automatically go to heaven anyway...so, why would they want to have missionaries...it would mean that some would hear and reject, sending them to hell...if only they hadn't heard, all would have been ok. See?


143 posted on 07/01/2005 11:12:52 AM PDT by cherrytoes (Life is - you know...)
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To: kezekiel; All

If you don't understand Jesus Christ, one of the persons of the trinity, your understanding of GOD is incomplete, which means you still are persisting in a rejection of what all of nature testifies in Romans 1, the truth that there is a God. Therefore, you are still guilty and under condemnation.

It is only liberal denominations that confess a non-Christian can be saved in this period of grace.

Common grace doesn't save.



144 posted on 07/01/2005 11:14:07 AM PDT by rwfromkansas (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=rwfromkansas)
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To: bayourod

Reincarnation as a cow is not a Hindu's goal.

Hindus also have no problem admitting that other religions might offer their own ways to salvation/God/Heaven/etc. In the Bhagavad Gita, God as Krishna explicitly states that men come to him through many paths.

Some Hindus worship Jesus as a god among many - or as one way among many. I've read the New Testament and the Koran and I'm still not sure why Christianity and Islam have such a problem with the concept and insist on being considered the only right way.

Personally, I think it's all nonsense, but if you insist on believing, you might as well be tolerant about others' beliefs. If Graham actually said that Christ might not be the only way to salvation, kudos to him.


145 posted on 07/01/2005 11:15:14 AM PDT by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

I tend to believe most, if not all, of what you say, but I acknowledge that what I believe, I believe by faith. That faith is the faith of a frail human being in a God who is infinite and all-knowing, and all-righteous. No one of us can KNOW how God might treat those who have not heard the name of Jesus. Our faith must direct us, but we must always understand that it is by faith we believe, not by earthly "knowledge."


146 posted on 07/01/2005 11:17:05 AM PDT by NCLaw441
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To: Rhadaghast

Catholic teaching is that some virtuous individuals, perhaps many of them, such as virtuous pagans or let's say virtuous Buddhists, can be saved, even though they do not know Christ consciously. But they listen to their hearts and consciences and do the best they know how.

Even though they don't consciously know Christ, Christ knows them, and can offer His grace to them.

One biblical indication that this principle follows is that it is that Abraham, Moses, and other virtuous Hebrews are said to be in heaven. They did not know Christ consciously, but they had faith in God and Christ saved them retroactively. See also St. Paul's words concerning the ancient "heroes of faith." From the viewpoint of eternity, all time is present time, and Christ's saving sacrifice can just as well extend backward into the past as forward into the future.

But it is just plain wrong in the traditional Christian view to say that there can be any salvation except through Christ. His saving sacrifice and offered grace are the only means of salvation.


147 posted on 07/01/2005 11:18:15 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Rhadaghast

PROOF POSITIVE.

Association with the Clintons will corrupt any mind!!!


148 posted on 07/01/2005 11:20:14 AM PDT by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: BonnieJ

According to the tape I listened to, Graham supposedly made these comments much earlier in time, e.g., well before his current (alleged) mental decline.


149 posted on 07/01/2005 11:22:42 AM PDT by miele man
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To: cherrytoes

"Without faith there is no salvation."

So a person who never heard Christ's name and dies is automatically sent to Hell? What kind of loving God does that?


150 posted on 07/01/2005 11:23:21 AM PDT by Rebelbase (Mexico, the 51st state.)
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