I found the picture of RFEngineer (guy on the left):
Posted on 07/10/2005 4:51:09 AM PDT by voletti
More than half a century of US dominance in science and engineering may be slipping as America's share of graduates in these fields falls relative to Europe and developing nations such as China and India, a study released on Friday says.
The study, written by Richard Freeman at the National Bureau of Economic Research in Washington, warned that changes in the global science and engineering job market may require a long period of adjustment for US workers.
Moves by international companies to move jobs in information technology, high-tech manufacturing and research and development to low-income developing countries were just "harbingers" of that longer-term adjustment, Freeman said.
Urgent action was needed to ensure that slippage in science and engineering education and research, a bulwark of the US productivity boom and resurgence during the 1990s, did not undermine America's global economic leadership, he added.
The United States has had a substantial lead in science and technology since World War Two. With just 5 per cent of the world's population, it employs almost a third of science and engineering researchers, accounts for 40 per cent of research and development spending and publishes 35 per cent of science and engineering research papers.
Many of the world's top high-tech firms are American, and government spending on defense-related technology ensures the US military's technological dominance on battlefields.
But the roots of this lead may be eroding, Freeman said.
Numbers of science and engineering graduates from European and Asian universities are soaring while new degrees in the United States have stagnated -- cutting its overall share.
(Excerpt) Read more at expressindia.com ...
"Law, finances."
Do you know how valuable someone is with an undergraduate engineering degree with a law degree on top?
In these days of global competition in science and technology, that is the ticket to riches beyond their wildest dreams........
Of course CPA's and Lawyers more often toil in obscurity and drudgery with middle-incomes than they do not...... Some people are ok with that.
It is stupid to invest money, effort and time into profession which is good only when you are in your 20's. Much better to be a lawyer, doctor, teacher etc - in these fields you can be making career your whole life.
starting your own business is definitely one of those options.
People who are good material for engineers often are not good for businessmen or salesmen. And you do not need to finish college or to be expert in technology field to be successful in business. Don't we know some famous examples for that? :)
It might be so now. But when the most of manufacturing base and technology relocates to China/India, US engineers with law degree will be much less in demand, similar to Argentinian engineers with Argentinian law degree.
Somewhere I read recently that "capital is a coward", it wants to minimize risk while maximizing profits. Think about how that might encourage mediocrity.
Mechanics on an intuitive level (see my post #9)
kinetics with marbles on a track
wave motion with a super size slinky
etc.
I've got three grand kids under 8. Girls.
There's all kinds of physics you can teach them before they've got much math.
I found the picture of RFEngineer (guy on the left):
My very bright daughter just switched her major from marine biology, that she loves, to accounting.
She is the hardest working person I know and always has been. Her couch in middle school used her as an example of what it was possible to accomplish with no talent but hard work and determination (I had mixed feelings about that).
Remember that the next time you hear, "The U.S. consumes 25% of the world's energy resources even though it only has 5% of the world's populaaaaaatioooon" (whiny emphasis mine). Also remember that for that 25% consumption of the world's energy resources, we produce... about 25% of the world's economic output.
You'll get a lot more rigorous readin' ritin' and rithmetic at a Christian school than you will at one of our dumbed-down, PC, moral-equivalency public skools, and the Christian schools will actually teach the value of Western civilization. You'd be better off sending your kids to Christian school and teaching them evolution on the side than you would sending your kid to your local liberal reeducation camps.
True, and that should be taught in grade school. But for a solid high school physics course, algebra and trig are needed.
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I think you're mistaken, at least what I see contradicts that. My neighborhood is in NW Nassau County on LI. Thirty minutes to mid-town, surrounded by world class medical complexes (North Shore, LI Jewish, St, Francis Heart) and the PS system is ranked number 4 in the country by USNews & World Report. In the past year six houses have sold within two blocks. Every buyer is Asian or Indian. Every buyer is a Medical or Technology professional. They could all have gone home and prospered but they all chose to stay here.
At least our students know how to put a condom on...
Good point. It was immigrants like Einstein that gave the US its edge.
We should get rid of a lot of crap in college i.e. Lesbo Studies, I hate America Studies, and fluff fluff courses.
But even lawyers better be a partner or own their own firm by their mid 30s. You can't just be an associate forever.
"You don't know anything about the profession."
LOL...well as long as my customers continue to think I do, I'm ok with that.
Whether you want to admit it or not, there are things you can't do as well in your 40's as you can in your 20's. Aspects of engineering simply require the flexibility of mind that you (unless you are an unusual specimen) can't do as well in your 40's as your 20's.
I did not mean to imply that there are no engineers in their 40's.....I'm one. but there are engineering things I did better in my 20's and that I hire folks in their 20's to do for me.
Perhaps...different locales may provide different perspectives.
My 8th grade science teacher told me the same, am now an engg grad student.. I still worship him for his encouragement !
"....I still worship him for his encouragement"
Your hard work is just beginning......but strangely, I hear no whining from you - which, according to folks on this thread, shouldn't be so, because according to them, you are doomed to a life of misery because you are pursuing a graduate education in engineering.
Thanks for adding a reality check to this discussion.
"We should get rid of a lot of crap in college i.e. Lesbo Studies, I hate America Studies, and fluff fluff courses."
Why? we have a tremendous lead in those fields. China and India might catch up if we don't keep funding those fields fully.
You are willing to give away our only advantage........
I dont think devout christians are primarily responsible for this reduced inclination of high school students to pick science/engg in college.
Blame lies more with liberals who try to malign engg and science as boring and ill paying, even making drone professions like Law and accounting as cool, as they dont need smart inventors or geniuses in those fields anyway (which suits the liberal agenda of dumbing down people to the same low IQ levels).
Afterall, just pick any TV show, the smart Engineer/ scientist is usually typecast as a Geek and outcast, just like a religious person (as long as he is Christian, being a religious muslim is A.OK with them) is depicted as a bigoted and stupid redneck.
And liberals are the first to accuse others of "anti- intellectualism", and by intellectuals they usually refer to social scientists/liberal arts professors !
Who needs math and science when you can play kick ball or stick ball? Priorities, people!
Hey, all you have to do is a free republic search of "autism," "vaccines," or "fluoride" to discover how ignorant most people with regard to science.
Its slightly true that technical people are usually honest and nice to one another. You can probably find such people only in USMC.
I have no idea what India's TV is like but what I remember of American TV - I threw my TV away almost 10 years ago in disgust -- I'd say that, if India's press is any indication, their TV is superior.
So add to the 10 - 15 per cent most of the MSM print and electronic media jobs.
As far as education goes there's been several India press articles critical of India's system as being geared too much toward passing tests, not enough creative thinking. That is why no doubt so many come here.
As far as Asian countries in general go, search for "universities cheating [country name]"
Not all Asians are ten feet tall.
We've been through this tech scare before, the children of the "greatest generation" beat the scare -- but that was in the days before the Internet, greed and labor arbitrage.
"Free tradin'" away our technology, wealth, and production, especially to enemies like the U.S.S.R and Red China, was absolutely forbidden by the "greatest generation."
Not so today. The New Democrat Third Way "progressive" one-worlders rule along with their conservative "free trade" lackeys (useful idiots as Lenin called them). The Davos World IOW, soon to be spurred on by Clinton's global initiative coming in September.
We heard a related argument back in the 50s when the Soviet Union launched Sputnik. The United States was falling behind the Soviets and we needed to reform education to keep up. The reforms made in High School back then in the sciences and mathematics were a huge mistake. It made those subjects less comprehensible to beginners. Reformers forgot that to teacher a beginner, the subject needed to be presented as simply as possible, artificially if necessary. Complexity can only be taught properly after basics are mastered.
The problem isn't India or China. It is the way schools teach science and math. There has been a lot of talk about getting back to basics. Not only do we need to get rid of the theraputic education designed to create perfect citizens, we need to go back to the way math and science were taught 70 years ago.
If you are an engineer you would know that a starting salary of 55K is a joke today. 55K is starvation wages. To go through all of the training to earn then earn so little is a truly a shock to me. I graduated in 1980 with a B.S.C.E. and thought my 28K starting salary was a joke. Starter homes cost about 80K in D.C. back then. You're telling me entry level Engineering pay is only 55K? Starter homes in D.C are now 400K. It is a joke, really....
Obviously, science can be farmed out as any other service industry to countries that are mired in 19th century social development. It is not practical that our children should waste time and money studying science in college when the job prospects for science-related careers are extremely poor.
"...entry level Engineering pay is only 55K? Starter homes in D.C are now 400K. It is a joke, really...."
Surely you jest.......An entry-level engineer can get a roommate, rent, or any number of things. If you think $55k starting salary is a joke, then you would truly guffaw over starting salaries for, say, business majors, psychology majors, history majors, and all the rest of the stereotypical "good time" majors.
Please tell me you aren't serious and I am simply too dense to understand your humor.
I'm not sure about that. In my department we've had full-ride fellowships go unfilled for lack of qualified U.S. students to fill them. They shy away from this particular field of engineering because they don't see a future in pursuing it.
So funding is one aspect of a multi-sided coin. Having qualified students who are interested in the discipline.
I was in grade school in the 40's and science and math was fair then.
To this day I remember telling my grade school teacher that I had figured out how to "take away" a bigger number from a smaller one.
She told me firmly and with irritation (I had responded with a "but...") that it was impossible!
I've subsequently spent a signifcant amount of time searching for ways to teach math to kids.
At this point I'd say that since there are two subjects: arithmetic and math, they should be taught that way. And math should only be taught to the upper 1/3 of the students, at most.
Well, if there's really not much future, the students could be right in staying away. Which branch of engineering are you referring to?
I wish I could convince my bank of that when I overdraw my checking account.
I've subsequently spent a signifcant amount of time searching for ways to teach math to kids. At this point I'd say that since there are two subjects: arithmetic and math, they should be taught that way. And math should only be taught to the upper 1/3 of the students, at most.
You make some good points. Your grade school teacher was restricting herself to the natural numbers with do not include negative numbers. You were ahead of the class and "discovered" the integers which do include negative numbers. It was probably beyond her skill to explain the difference to you.
One difficulty that your story points to is that not everyone is a good teacher. It is not possible to make good teachers come out of college like cars in a factory assembly line. The demand for mass education produces a lot of mediocre teachers.
I do agree with your solution. Let the students good in math go to a more advanced class taught by a better teacher. They won't be bored by a class geared for the average or below average student. But that would mean rewarding excellence and neither the schools nor the public will tolerate excellence. Somebody's feelings might get hurt. It is better to dumb down the class and make everyone equally incompetent.
You are generalizing a bit too much.. R&D jobs wont be outsourced to India/China even though it would be lucrative to do so, because those jobs need people with advanced degrees which majority of Indian Indians or Chinese Chinese lack..
Those who come to the states to pursue higher education will eventually settle down here (which is a good thing) and contribute to American R&D. This trend is not gonna alter, because Chindia can never compete with American infrastructure or funds.
p.s. dont take my initial outburst to heart, I am just a bit irked when people use the bogey of outsourcing to discourage youngsters from taking up science and engg, and moreover research in those fields.
I am not discouraging the best and brightest from entering technical fields. As a teacher of those disciplines at the post-graduate level, I do everything I can to encourage them. We offer fellowships and research appointments and teaching posts, all to try to do something to attract qualified US students to the programs. What I tell students who will listen is that if they find themselves in a position to make a difference, do not to sell out their country or their fellow citizens to the highest bidder in the marketplace. Rather, build, create, make long-term investments, and have the vision to see that often greater benefits are reaped from slow, steady growth rather than get rich quick sell-outs.
My point is that no matter what I do it is swimming against the tide. When the business model in this country is geared towards short-term profit and maximizing the bottom line at the expense of everything else, long-term investment in knowledge, infrastructure, development, and people tends to be neglected. Students are stupid. They see those trends and get make their own judgments. Why spend four or six or eight years getting a degree only to have to train your replacement in Bangalore? The message they are getting from American business is that you're better off to not waste your time with those things. Get a law degree or MBA and then you'll be the ones making your daily bread suing other people or outsourcing their jobs (until they come for yours).
What I see every day in the trenches, in the classes I teach, the same classes that I sat in over thirty years ago as a student, when there was perhaps 70-80% enrollment by U.S. students, is now 70-80% foreign nationals. I just sat on the dissertation committee of one of the best students I ever had in materials science who is getting his degree this summer and going back to India. I had a Japanese student a couple of semesters ago who could eat your lunch in neutron diffusion, and went home to Japan. I had a Romanian student who was absolutely top-drawer in radiation measurement instrumentation get grabbed up by Siemens in Germany.
Conversely, we've had U.S.-sponsored fellowships go begging for lack of qualified American students. The last student we had who took one of those ended up washing out because of poor academic performance and transferred over to the school of education (of all things!).
I have posted often on these threads that this country is in real danger of selling out it's technological and industrial future for the sake of a few pieces of silver. The labor of generations spent in building what we have today may all be lost because of the short-term greed of a few. And we not only lose things, but people. The intellectual capital of how to actually build things and get things done is being eroded. I for one will work against that tide, but so far it has been a losing battle.
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