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Posted on 07/19/2005 10:21:13 AM PDT by TexKat
Didn't she say that AVDS told her the drinking age was 16? I read over at RW that for beer and wine it's 16. Hard liquor is 18.
Schippers still doesn't like Greta. Did you watch Arlene's body language tonight? Arms folded tightly in front of her. That is a sign that the person being interviewed totally opposes what is being said; or that he/she doesn't like the speaker/questioner.
It should be used to track down Natalee's location and fate.
No, not the psychic. The other news that Scarborough stated that we would only hear on his show and it came from reliable sources. Something about Joran hitting Natalee in C&Cs and one of the MB students stepping in and telling them to take it outside.
an unquestionable exemplar of Natalees DNA is easily available from a variety of sources in her hotel room as well as her home in Alabama.
Greta has the animals on tonight. Giving LKL a run for the money. And she's not afraid of them like Larry.
Jack Hanna, that's the guy.
Greta likes animals. Whenever she and her crew go to Aruba, they stop by Van der Sloot's neighbor's place to feed fruit to the abandoned monkey.
(And also to put covert surveillance on the Sloots' House).
I can find little in this post to disagree with except some minor stuff about body/water......
One thing I can state with certainty....if the tape and hairs coincide with Natalee, it was not an accidental death.....if for no other reason than duct tape is of no use on a corpse.....they do not need to be restrained.
The extraordinary story of the disappearance in Aruba continues to confound many around the world. We'll look at it again after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Eighteen-year-old student, Natalee Holloway, now 52 days missing on the island of Aruba. Seventeen-year-old Joran Van der Sloot is one of three people who was seen with her in the early hours remains in custody. Joining us in Meridian, Mississippi, is Dave Holloway, Natalee's father. In Aruba is Vinda Desousa, the attorney for Holloway and Twitty families. Twitty, by the way, the last name of Natalee's biological mother, Beth Holloway Twitty. In West Palm Beach is Dr. Henry Lee, one of the foremost forensic scientists, founder and professor of the forensic of science program at the University of New Haven and Chief Emeritus of the Connecticut State Police. In Miami is Stacey Honowitz, the Florida assistant state attorney specializing in sex crimes and child abuse cases, in San Francisco, Michael Cardoza, the noted defense attorney and in Naples, Florida, Susan Candiotti, CNN correspondent reporting on the Holloway case. What's the latest with the DNA thing? We'll start with you, Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Larry, it started on Sunday actually, you could say, when a park ranger who was picking up trash at a beach called Boca Tortuga, or Turtle Beach, found a piece of duct tape with some hair on it. Some describe it as blonde hair, some darker colored hair. In the meantime, let's put this into perspective what happened before that. Back on July 13, the prosecutors filed a motion with the court, asking for DNA samples, saliva swabs, to be taken from the Kalpoe brothers, who of course, as you recall, have already been freed, and also from Joran Van der Sloot. Nothing happened until yesterday, a couple of days after that duct tape was found, a court yesterday approved of those DNA samples to be taken. And in fact they were taken yesterday from all three of those young men.
So what happens to them next? They are -- samples are on their way to a laboratory in the Netherlands. And also, the FBI tells me that, upon their request, a sample was also shared with them. And an FBI agent hand carried that sample out of Aruba this very day. It arrived back in the United States at the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia, tonight, and it is expected that testing will begin on that hair sample first thing in the morning -- Larry.
KING: And Dr. Henry Lee, how long does that test take?
DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAVEN: Well, it depends on the hair test or the DNA test. That's two separate things. It's an important break-through to find the tape with the hair because the tape itself can give us physical characteristics, and those are microscopic. A comparison can be done in one day, to thread count, type of fiber, type of glue, adhesive material, determine the manufacturer of the tape.
The important thing is whatever the trace evidence adhered on the adhesive side could be tissues, blood, and could be fingerprint. Now, if it's a -- have some dead tissue, if the suspect handed the tape, they may have gotten a mixture of DNA, let's say with van -- Natalee's own DNA, it -- with another male's DNA. That's why you need sort of a DNA from Van der Sloot and others to exclude them or include them in the whole issue.
KING: How long does it take?
LEE: The DNA analysis, if you do STR, probably three to four days. If midochondrial DNA, just the hair itself, hair itself will not link to the suspect, only can tell us microscopic...
KING: I got you.
LEE: ...or similar too. Yes. That probably takes about three, four days.
KING: Dave Holloway, does this at least give you some encouragement at closure? DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S FATHER: Well, for closure, yes, but you know we've had a lot of false hopes and you know maybe this is one that God's given us for closure. But you know, we've had everything from the empty grave to the barrel, to clothing and more clothing, to the bones, you know, and other things. And by the way, I did find out that one of those bones was a human bone, and it had been in there for at least two years. So I hope the authorities are at least searching, you know, for whatever missing person was several years ago.
KING: Vinda, why does Dave Holloway need an attorney?
VINDA DESOUSA, ATTORNEY FOR NATALEE'S PARENTS, STEP-PARETNS IN ARUBA: Well, first of all, to navigate and to explain about the Aruban legal system, to -- so they would understand what's going on and why the investigation is tight-lipped and done the way it's done. And secondly, as soon as I was retained by the family, I filed a victimized jointer party. That is -- when you file that, whenever somebody feels that he or she is a victim of a possible crime, you become a civilian party in a criminal procedure and that will give you a few perks, as you would call them. One of them would be to be informed on the progress of the investigation. One of the other benefits would be if, for instance, the prosecutor or the investigative authorities -- I should say the prosecution should decide for one or another reason, I'm talking in general, because this is done in more cases -- should decide not to prosecute one of the suspects, the victimized party can appeal that decision. So it's a few of the benefits that comes with it.
KING: Stacey Honowitz, that does not occur in the States, does it?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Well, normally, I mean, in the states the victims are informed at every stage of the proceeding and that...
KING: Yes, but they can't appeal a decision, can they?
HONOWITZ: No, they're not going to appeal the decision. No, not in the United States. It's not going to happen. But the idea of them having an attorney over there is very important because everything is so private and secretive that they need to have somebody on their side. They can inform them how the system works because they're not familiar with it. Over here we're very lucky. The victims are made aware of everything that going on at every stage of the proceeding or at least should be made aware of everything that's going on.
KING: Michael Cardoza, as a defense attorney does this being boggle you this whole thing?
MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, yes, it's boggled me right from the get-go, Larry. The secrecy of it is certainly contrary to what we have here in the United States. And I'll tell you one other thing with this new evidence that boggles me, they take Satish and Deepak's DNA and they want Joran's DNA. Why didn't they take the judge's DNA because -- is he involved with this? Who knows? What if it's his hair on those tapes? So why didn't they go to the judge and ask him, "You give us a DNA sample, too," which raises all sorts of questions for me as to what's going on down there.
KING: Let me take a break. We'll come back. We'll be including your phone calls as well. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Police say Natalee Holloway was here in the Holiday Inn Casino on Saturday night, May 28. It was her first known contact with one of the suspects, Joran Van der Sloot, the 17-year-old son of an Aruban judge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: By the way, tomorrow night Kirk Bloodsworth is our guest. Wrongfully convicted, he sat on death row. He's with us tomorrow night.
Before we take calls, LARRY KING LIVE has extended standing invitations to Robin Van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers, as well as their attorneys, and family members, to appear on this show. So far, those invitations have not been accepted. The prosecutor's office on Aruba is not doing media interviews at this time. Vinda, why not?
DESOUSA: Because this is how the system works here. Normally, prosecution -- the investigative authorities will not give interviews, will not talk about the investigation. It's simply not done. It's how the system is.
KING: Let's take a call. Montreal, Quebec. Hello.
CALLER: Larry?
KING: Yes, go ahead.
CALLER: Hi. My understanding is that, you know, that Jorgan (sic) was a gambler, or is a gambler. Is it possible that he could have owed some bad people a lot of money, and he couldn't pay it back, and maybe he kidnapped or lured Natalee to the beach only to have these people kidnap her and bring her say to Venezuela or Colombia? Is that a possibility?
KING: That would be a hope. Dave, that a possibility to you?
HOLLOWAY: The last known facts was they were leaving the Holiday -- excuse me, Carlos 'n Charlie's. After that, you know, you have a suitcase full of lies. Nine to 15 different stories. So you know, I don't have any access to any of the evidence that the police hold, so you know, we could only speculate as bystanders.
KING: Dr. Lee, forensically, without a corpus delecti, it's difficult, isn't it. It's hard -- where do you go? LEE: Yes, it's difficult, without corpus delecti, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course, this tape with hair become important. We don't know how many hairs. If it's a bundle of hair, second if those hairs are not (INAUDIBLE) hair, in other words full naturely (ph) but collagen or active growth hair, those become important because physically separated from somebody's skull. So that could prove foul play.
Now, if we can prove those hair in fact (INAUDIBLE), because when I look at her picture, it looks like her hair have two different tones, two different color, some are blond, some little like a brunette color.
So which, whether or not she dyed her hair or bleach her hair becomes one of the comparison characteristics. Midochondrial DNA become important. If on the tape you found some tissue, those tissue not necessarily from Natalee could be suspect's finger touch the tape, left some tissue, those can do STR DNA. If you can prove that, this case can be very, very prosecutable.
KING: Stacey, should the prosecution speak out?
HONOWITZ: You know, you always run the risk, Larry, when the prosecutor begins to speak, especially when someone has not been formally charged, of really tainting the investigation. So, as far as them speaking nationally, internationally about what's going on, I can understand why they have to keep some of the facts secret. They really do. But it frustrates everybody else, because nobody knows what's going on.
The one thing I want to say that the idea that this hair was found in this tape is a huge breakthrough for the prosecution, because as Dr. Lee said, No. 1, through forensic testing, they are going to be able to tell whether or not that is, in fact, Natalee's hair.
They take the hair, they send it to the lab, they do mitochondrial DNA. And they can also take DNA from her toothbrush, or from her hair brush and make the comparison to see if it's her hair to begin with. That's the first thing.
And then as Dr. Lee said, if there's any tissue, anything left on that tape: fibers, forensics, fingerprints, anything of that nature, then certainly this could be the corpus in the case, if we can prove that there's foul play -- if it's bundles of hair, if any of their DNA is on there, then there you have a corpus coupled with everything else that she's missing, you have a prosecutable case.
So this is a huge breakthrough, even though the media is not talking about -- I mean, the prosecutor is not talking about it, it's a big breakthrough. We're going to have to wait and see what the lab says.
KING: We'll take a break. Hear from Michael and Susan and more phone calls right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PENHAUL: Carlos 'n Charlie's bar. Holloway came here to party the following Sunday night. She was with high school friends. The bar is in Aruba's capital, Oranjestad, about 15 minutes' drive from the Holiday Inn where Holloway and her classmates were staying.
Joran Van der Sloot and brothers Deepak and is Satish Kalpoe, seen here printed in an Aruban newspaper, showed up about 10:25. According to police, it was around 1:00 a.m., closing time early Monday, when Natalee Holloway's friends watched her walk out of the bar and into a silver gray car with Van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Winchester, Illinois, hello.
CALLER: Hi.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: Thoughts and prayers go out to Natalee's family.
I just wondered if lie detector tests were allowed in the Aruban government? And also, I had heard of a shallow grave that was found.
KING: Vinda, what can you tell us?
DESOUSA: Well about the shallow grave, there was a shallow hole, yes, found by EquuSearch, and the authorities took a look at it and apparently it had no evidence or nothing to link it to any crime. And about the lie detector --
KING: Can lie detector tests be used?
DESOUSA: No. The lie detector is not used here in Aruba. It's not admissible in court and it's simply -- it's not used. It's not an investigative tool in the Dutch system.
KING: Michael, if you're a defense attorney for this, for Joran Van Der Sloot, what do you do at this point?
CARDOZA: You tell him to be quiet, just as he's being. Remember, he's got what, maybe 50 more days in jail in this particular case. So the only way that he could really incriminate himself here is to talk. And you bet his lawyers are saying, look Joran, you could face life imprisonment or you spend 50 more days in here. Be quiet, don't talk. That's what you tell him as a defense attorney.
KING: But what if he didn't do anything? Why shouldn't he tell them what he knows if he didn't do anything?
CARDOZA: Basically he has told them that so far. So can he talk to that regard? Sure. But I'll tell you what, Larry, I've learned that when clients talk, everything gets spun the way law enforcement wants it to. You say A, they say well that really means B. So you never know how someone's going to interpret something. You never know what inferences they can draw from that. So basically, and I'm talking as a defense attorney, certainly not for the family, because they certainly wish if he knew something he would tell where, but as a defense attorney, I tell them don't say anything at all, because, believe me, it will be misinterpreted, so we are not talking, even if you're innocent, you be quiet.
KING: Susan Candiotti, reportorially, is this a tough story to cover?
CANDIOTTI: It is, because everyone is so close-lipped about this, and as we also heard time and again from law enforcement sources, the suspects in this case have told many different versions of what happened that night. Anywhere from nine to 15 possibly, as many as 15 different versions, and even pointing fingers at each other. But one of the other difficulties, even when there have been court proceedings, you can't attend them as you can in the United States, and you have to wait for someone to come outside and tell you what happened. So it's very difficult trying to develop inside sources to find out what's going on.
KING: To Danville, Virginia. Hello.
CALLER: Hello?
KING: Hi.
CALLER: I enjoy your show.
KING: Thank you.
CALLER: And I have a question.
KING: Go ahead.
CALLER: What are your thoughts for Beth Holloway to acquire a psychic to go to Aruba to maybe try to assist?
KING: Dave?
HOLLOWAY: No one hired a psychic to go to Aruba. There was one that visited with the Texas EquuSearch team, and provided her input, but there's been a number of people, probably hundreds of people, who have called in and given information that they felt like would be beneficial.
KING: What keeps you going, Dave?
HOLLOWAY: You know, I've said this from the beginning, you know, I left Meridian with a prayer, you know, God give us strength to get through this, and I continue to remember that prayer every day. We have the family and all of our friends in the community that continue to pray for us and lend support, and you know, that's what keeps us going. You know, my car went into neutral, you know, and God's just pushing it.
KING: Cocoa Beach, Florida. Hello. CALLER: Hello.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: A reference has been made to EquuSearch, and was asked if they have searched the Dutch boy's yard, and he was told that he could not get permission, but could not some of the Aruban officials themselves go and search that?
KING: Stacey?
HONOWITZ: Yes, as a matter of fact, Tim was on the show last week, and we were talking about how much information he actually got from the Aruban government, where they searched so that -- well he wanted to go back to the same places, and he said that they gave him some information as to where they've already searched but you never know, you can go back two or three times to search. But it's true. You could.
Certainly they could search anywhere that they thought that there could be evidence of a crime. So the authorities certainly could have applied for a search warrant for certain places. I know that they did. But they certainly could have gone into these places that sounded like a crime could have taken -- evidence of a crime was there, go in and see what's there. And we don't know, because of this vow of secrecy and everything that's going on, we don't know the exact places that they've searched. But I think what's really going to come out of this, Larry, and we're hoping that there seems -- there's a reward up for any information, and you rewards bring out very interesting things.
And in this case, maybe the idea that the reward is out there now, maybe there are people who do have information that will come forward. I think that's the hopes of the family. I think it's even maybe the hopes of the police at this point, that somebody who didn't come forward before, now being enticed by money will come forward and give some information.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with more, and more of your phone calls on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PENHAUL: Those who've read the Kalpoe brothers statements.
CHRIS LEJUEZ, ATTORNEY FOR RELEASED SUSPECT: After they get in of the car, one of them says she wanted to see the other side of the island, and the other one says she wanted to see, to go have a look at the sharks.
PENHAUL: You can make it to the light house from Carlos N' Charlies in around 20 minutes. The Kalpoes were said to be up front, Holloway and Van Der Sloot in the back.
LEJUEZ: They say that he was not only kissing her, but fondling her sexually.
PENHAUL: It's called California light house. It's a tourist attraction by day. By night, an isolated romantic rendezvous.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Hello. Hello? We try Chattanooga, Tennessee. Hello. Go ahead. Chattanooga, are you there?
CALLER: Yes.
KING: All right, go ahead.
CALLER: I wonder if anyone has ever checked the party boat that the cruise guy with the deejay on, and you know it was vacant that night, and they could have all taken went out on the boat.
KING: Dave?
HOLLOWAY: Well the authorities have told us that all boats that leave and come back are monitored, so that particular boat is stationary in the water, and I don't think it leaves off the island, but just a few hundred yards.
KING: Susan, reports about some kind of well on the Van Der Sloot property, is that true?
CANDIOTTI: Well, we don't know of any well on that property. There is -- there are wells certainly in the area. I can tell you that the property was searched thoroughly by authorities there, and even FBI agents observed those searches. There's also a dam near there, but you know, you mentioned difficulties in covering the stories. Rumors have just been rampant, and these are the types of things that you hear again.
Even the duct tape -- let's see where it leads, but it was found on the opposite side of the island, where Natalee was allegedly last known to have been. So, let's see where that goes. Hopefully it won't be an empty lead as well.
KING: Dr. Lee, would you say this might be very difficult to ever solve, if, God forbid, she was tossed out deep at sea?
LEE: It's very difficult, Larry. However, it's not impossible. We-- in my past and -- we did solve a couple of cases. One of the cases, this suspect, killed a teenager (inaudible). After two years, some lady walking on the beach saw a sneaker that had socks in there. She was kind of interested in that and called the police. Subsequently was able to link the sneaker to the victim. We found a toe bone inside of the socks and Tommy Moro (ph) was convicted for the homicide.
Nancy: Roane County, West Virginia. Hello.
CALLER: Hello.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: Yes. I wanted to know if they thought that was Natalee's hair on the duct tape, wouldn't they have to have a DNA or other hair from Natalee to prove that's her hair?
KING: Yes. Wouldn't they need other -- something else from her, Dr. Lee?
LEE: Yes. We definitely need her head known head hair or from her mother's DNA because mitochondrial DNA is a maternity-linked DNA. You cannot compare it to the father's side. Of course, very important, Larry, I'm sure they should look on the duct tape. Where did that duct tape come from? In the suspect's home or the boat? Any place that have duct tape should be compared.
KING: And Stacey, you're saying this is big.
HONOWITZ: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, you know, out of that one piece -- the hairs with the tape, there's so much evidence that can come from that and back to your caller with regard to comparing her hair, they can go to her hair brush or her comb.
Certainly, that's probably in the hotel room that her mother has and be able to take that hair and compare the DNA, but this one piece of evidence so far -- we're calling it evidence. We don't know if it's evidence in the case, but what they found can contain a whole story.
So, the lab results on this, the DNA on this, the comparisons of the tape, the fibers, the breaking of the tape, the comparing of the edges of the tape are crucial. What Dr. Lee said: Where did the tape come from? Was it a part of a search? Did -- was it seized out of one of the houses?
So, we're going to wait and see. This could unlock a lot of answers to this case.
KING: Michael, you agree?
CARDOZA: You know, I hope Stacey is right. I really hope you're right on this one, Stacey, that it does lead. But let's look at the best- case scenario. If the duct tape has hair on it. If it's Natalee's hair, the best-case scenario would be to have Joran's hair on it, too.
That certainly would be damning evidence against him and you could prove the criminality that way, because then you've coupled that with his changing his stories. What? we've heard up to -- he's told, what, eight different stories.
So, you take that story change, you couple it with this duct tape. If his hair and Natalee's hair is on it, yes it'll be very damning evidence and possibly proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I hope she's right, but what if it's only Natalee's hair? How do you connect that to Joran? It may not connect to him.
LEE: Well, maybe fingerprints; you can find them on the tape or...
CARDOZA: Well, hopefully.
LEE: ... Or DNA.
CARDOZA: Sure.
LEE: We found a lot of DNA on the duct tape in the past and linked a suspect -- or mixture of DNA, Natalee's DNA and the suspects DNA.
CARDOZA: Right. All I'm saying is...
LEE: ... You can link -- Yes.
CARDOZA: If it's only her hair on it, you know, what do you have? You have her hair on duct tape. I mean somebody did something awful to her, probably.
LEE: Right, but on the other hand, if you found in his house or his car, similar duct tape.
CARDOZA: Absolutely.
LEE: So some lead.
KING: Yes. Let me get a break and we'll be back with more. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENHAUL: As they looped back around, they would have pasted Arashi Beach. Experts say if you dump an object here, the current will drag it west toward open ocean. According to Lejuez, the suspects statements deny stopping at the beach, but the area was searched shortly after Holloway's disappearance.
From Aruba's northwest tip, Lejuez says the Kalpoe brother's statement describes heading back to the Holiday Inn. When they dropped off Holloway, Lejuez quotes the statement of one of the Kalpoe brothers, saying she was drunk and stumbled from the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Columbia, South Carolina. Hello.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. My question is for Mr. Holloway.
KING: Sure.
Caller: There have been reports of a white Suzuki that was seen on the beach by fisherman the night that Natalee was missing. Do you know if that vehicle had been searched by the investigators for evidence?
HOLLOWAY: You know, I'm not aware of any vehicle that was on the beach. From what I understand, the fishermen reported that no one came to the beach that night.
Again, we're limited to the information we get from the police. So if you heard about the Suzuki, it may have been a leak or whatever, but I'm not familiar with it.
KING: Vinda, do they keep you posted generally on developments?
DESOUSA: Yes, they do. I have daily contact with the prosecutor and I do relay that information daily to the family. And moreover, the family is briefed daily by the FBI, who does sit in, in the interrogations, who attends the briefings and the work meetings of the investigative authorities.
They are kept as-much-as-possible informed and when I say as much as possible, I mean in order not to jeopardize the investigation, because they're still trying to gather as much evidence as possible. They are kept informed, yes.
KING: Susan Candiotti, does the FBI talk to you?
CANDIOTTI: Well, they did today. Let's just say this, the head of the Miami's FBI office was down on the island yesterday and met with Mrs. Holloway and today, he met with the U.S. -- the attorney general down there, rather, as well as other law enforcement authorities to talk about the good rapport that they have.
They have been able to, as your guest pointed out, observe interviews, attend briefings and -- however, they did ask previously to look at overall evidence that had been gathered. They were denied that request because of local rules down there.
KING: Thanks, Susan. Thank you all very much. A sad note before we go, Deepak Chopra's beloved mother Pushpa Chopra, has died in India at age 80. She was a generous and gentle woman. In 1986 she founded the Heart Care Foundation of India. Our sympathies and prayers go out Pushpa Chopra's family, including her two sons, five grandchildren and three great granddaughters.
And even the same strand of hair can be different colors too!
from post # 792
"....also suspect that because of the incompetence of the police and financial privacy laws that it is unlikely they have looked into the financial records of the Van der Sloots. I believe that is another way in which the Van der Sloots have gotten lucky."
Actually, it is possible that if this poster is mostly right, the VDS financial records may well be traceable by the FBI/DEA, when you consider the interest these two agencies have had wrt aruba longterm.....I'll bet you that "PROMIS" software is embedded into the financial systems in aruba......and that if our agencies mentioned consider the scenario of this poster they would make their best effort to look......
Thanks truthluva.
Sum ting wong wi hair?
Thanks for the transcript.
Actually, I feel more hopeful this week than ever before that this case is going to be solved soon.
I don't know how they got Jug Twitty on that subject, but I think that's awesome. Wonder if he was a FReeper before all this.
The Aruban Ben Stein.
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