Skip to comments.Two Illegal Immigrants Win Arizona Ranch in Court Fight
Posted on 08/19/2005 12:09:29 AM PDT by Southack
DOUGLAS, Ariz., Aug. 18 - Spent shells litter the ground at what is left of the firing range, and camouflage outfits still hang in a storeroom. Just a few months ago, this ranch was known as Camp Thunderbird, the headquarters of a paramilitary group that promised to use force to keep illegal immigrants from sneaking across the border with Mexico.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
(Would you believe I have a B.S. in mathematics? But let's not blame this stupidity on our system of higher education. Let's instead blame it on the late hour, okay? Works for me. :)
What irks me most about the error is that it diluted my original argument rather than enhancing it. :)
Werksferme too ;^) I saw what you had done to arrive at your miscalculation, but figgered what with you being a very bright lady and all, you'd catch it sooner or later. Still in all a well done piece. Maybe you would consider redoing your numbers and reposting it as a thread of its own so it would get more exposure. Can't hurt the cause any to apply some dollars and cents to the discussion.
An investment less than the annual cost of the problem which would alleviate the problem makes good sense. Even though I get images of the Berlin Wall, we do need to do something, and in contrast to that series of structures, this is not to keep people in, but to keep them out.
If enogh Mexicans (and others) were to be forced to remain in Mexico (and elsewhere), perhaps they would change the government which oppresses them, instead of coming here illegally and subverting ours.
Unfortunately, as those of us who work in the oil industry get our first real raises in a decade, people wail and gnash their teeth over the cost of fuel.
I am no defeatist, but the outcry over the increase in cost of goods and services in the niches filled by illegals would probably be greater than the outcry over the the current illegal immigrant problem.
By and large, Americans have become a self-centered and short-sighted lot.
Sadly, there are few of Sam Adams' fervor present in our modern society; people are too caught up in the acquisition of immaterial material wealth to pay attention to their own families, much less the dangers to our Liberty.
I would wager that even many of the members of Congress, themselves, in some way benefit, whether it be the gardener, housekeeper, or the guy who cleans the pool, directly or indirectly, by the presence of illegal immigrants in the labor force.
That is bad enough, but the theft of Nethercott's Ranch is being done, not just as a "damage" award to the "victims", but a way of definitively punishing someone who has been an outspoken thorn in the side of official agencies on this issue for some time. If Nethercott's ranch forfieture is intended as an 'object lesson' to those who would "take the law into their own hands", I fear that turf battle has only just begun.
Sadly, the man has been roundly demonized in the media, deservedly or not, and will garner little sympathy from those who refuse to see the greater issue at hand. DOubtless, that is no accident.
For starters, we need protection against the award of damages to someone who is injured in the commission of a criminal act by someone seeking to halt or hinder that act, not just to protect landowners in the border areas, but any and every citizen who choses to defend themselves, their property, or their family against criminals.
The ramifications of this would be broad indeed, as it would ensure that the average citizen can uphold the law using reasonable (including lethal) force without fear of civil recrimination by those allegedly injured doing their particular criminal act.
(In this instance, the lesson is that Nethercott would have been better off taking his chances and burying these people, rather than giving them water and a blanket.)
I can not understand why such liability protection is so freely tendered to those who act in an official capacity, but generally withheld from the average person. There is no 'equal protection' under these laws eliminating liability for officials only, which may be a Constitutional issue in and of itself.
As for securing the border, this is one of the Constitutional empowerments of the Federal Government, unfortunately abdicated by the Congress in the aim of securing votes from the numerically increasing and increasingly anti-American groups which espouse thwarting that objective.
Even in the face of the threat (and in some instances, the reality--MS 13 comes to mind) of terrorists infiltrating our nation through the highly permeable arrangement on our borders, these legislators lack the intestinal fortitude to uphold this mandate from the very document they are sworn to protect and defend, the very essence of our government.
For now, the battle is primarily within the system. There are credible attempts to sieze the property of judges who voted for Kelo, which I hope succeed, or at least come close enough to cause the Court to reconsider and overturn the decision. There is an outcry over the City of New London attempting to charge back rent to those whose property they have siezed, a real abombination, and again, a punitive measure, undertaken through the courts, with no doubt the objective of establishing precedent which is intended to intimidate any who would resist such property siezures.
These acts are not only in violation of the spirit of the Constitution, they are arguably criminal racketeering.
I cannot be convinced that those who have pushed these actions to sieze property and redistribute it to other private entities "for the purpose of increasing tax revenues" do not stand to receive some personal gain, whether through increasing the funding for their tenure in their present position through "contributions" or more directly.
Were this 1773, they would likely be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.
The cost recovery alone in the first 5 years, due to the decreased burden on the State/Fed tax system by SEVERELY curtailing, if not outright eliminating the Illegal Infiltrator problem MORE than offeset the start-up costs,and as the wall will not need 8 Billion/Year EVERY year, as it will then be a fixed cost...I rough estimate with your provided figures that within 3.5 to 4 years, The wall, security, and all associated costs will be paid in full by the savings from reduced/eliminated burden!
Then, we can wall off Canada...after offering the Westen Provinces the opportunity to join the US first!
My next suggestion is doing what was done in "Escape From New York"...turn Manhattan into a LIEberal enclave(hell, it already IS), wall it up and mine/cut the bridges and tunnels, and just toss the bastards in as they surface in the rest of America, to fend for themselves and not screw it up for the REAL America anymore! You want to live in a Marxist Utopia...here's your entry pass...good luck!
I can see Krintong and Shrillary as the "Duke and Dutchess of NY...they're A #1!"...I know...a fantasy, but I can dream, can't I?
Back to reality...your final thought is correct, but not far enough along... I predict that we are 12/18 MONTHS from B.I.T.S. ... and that timeframe is shrinking exponentially with EVERY Kelo/AZ decision that comes along, as our "Leaders" dither and show just how meaningless and out-of-touch they are!
I predict that we should invest in comanies that produce things like rope...ammo/arms...feathers...tar....because the past will happen again, and sooner than the Perfumed Princes of Power think.
Sadly - no.
The trick is to scare, harrass, demand, and force by grassroots action (minutemen) the existing crop and upcomers into rediscovering their base, their supposed duties, and the constitution that made it all possible.
Trying to start over would leave a vacuum for far too many years and probably result in a doomed lesser partner within a virtual one party system governed by the likes of the clintons, kennedys, and the multicultural/group rights facists.
I don't really think you can lump joanie in with the
"open borders crowd".
Miles are longer than kilometers not vice versa.
What are you smoking???
The whole point of Joanie's response is that we can built a wall along the entire southern border, and man it with guard stations every half mile, for 15% of what it costs us each year to provide for the illegals that are already here. She's also invoking Samuel Adams's call for doing everything we can to protect our life, liberty and property. And you call her an advocate of "open borders?"
As for the "miles are bigger than kilometers" agrument, she already admitted above that she divided by .62 instead of multiplying.
You might also want to read the last 2 paragraphs of what she wrote, and then come back with your accusation that she is a member of the open borders crowd.
Learn to read. You're firing at your own troops.
That is not the impression that her essay left with me. From over stating the length of the borders to overstating the manpower requirements I got the impression that it was one long whine. If you have a problem with that fact to bad.
You're either a comedian or a liberal plant. Either way, you deserve to be ignored. LOL!
For you to somehow construe that Joanie-f is related to or in league with the "open border" crowd tells me that it is most probably a whole lot of both.
Joanie's comments were spot on target about not only the threat of the current open border situation, but also the types of things that must be done to address it. She figured out her own mistake with the km2miles math and admitted to it in a later post. But that is a minuscule issue compared to the whole. Her thoughts and commetns on the founding of this natiuon and many of the views of those founders on immigration, the sacrifices and blood that was spent in securing the liberty that is enumerated in law through our constitution, and the current dangerous path of current politicians and the "open border" people come across clearly in her very eloquent post.
Read through more of the thread and notice what others have said in response to her comments and how and what she responded to those people with...and I am sure you will find that your impressions of both Joanie and her post are well off the mark.
Your choice...but just some friendly advise regarding the same.
BTW, let me compliment you on your choice in firearms...I shoot an FAL here in IDaho. Best vermit/coyote gun I have ever owned.
For those same illegals to be able to sue in American court and come away with the landowner's land is an outrage. It will encourage more to do the same and to in fact precipitate such events in the future.
The smugness of the SPLC lawyers and others in this horrible precedent will only fuel more of the same and a corresponding increase in resistance from people who will refuse to be driven from their land by this wave of illegal immigration and the socio-globalist/marxist who abett it.
I say this to their smugness...be careful, you know not what seeds you sow. Honest, hard-working, land-owning Americans will only be pushed so far...as is evidencd through our long history. Life, liberty and land ownership were the original three unalienable rights enumerated in the original Declaration of Indpendence...and along with those comes the right to defend them...with our very lives if necessary.
Continue to push this...smug lawyers, ACLU, politicians, etc. at your own eventual peril. That is not a personal threat to any person or place...it is simply a statment of the real, abject lessons of history. Lessons if one does not learn from, they are very apt to repeat.
Well said. Thanks for the ping.
I've asked the question on joanie's new thread, but I'll put it to you, who's gonna organize the resistance?
It will form on its own in the hearts and minds of the good, God-fearing, liberty loving people of thios country. Indeed, it has already stared...and they will establish their own committtees of correspondence, freemen societes, free republics,...and yes, dreaded militias as circumstances escalte and warrant it.
I just hope there's enough of us still awake. I don't know about you, but the waiting is the worst thing about it. If it's going to happen, bring it on, and soon. I would rather the fight be joined while I'm still somewhat able to contribute. Better me than my children or grandchildren. We will have dishonored ourselves to our posterity if we allow this mess to be passed on to them.
bump for later.