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Never, Ever Leave home without It.
Real Life | 8/21/2005 | CholeraJoe

Posted on 08/21/2005 6:02:36 AM PDT by CholeraJoe

"Never, ever leave home without it." No, not your American Express card, your sidearm.

This morning, I woke up about 4:15 and was hungry, so I decided to drive to the local 24-hour beanery. The only other customers were a table of 10, intoxicated 20-somethings making alot of noise.

There were 7 muscular young men and three loud-mouthed young women. After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes, I politely asked the waitress to ask them to hold down the noise. All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace.

Her request for quiet lasted about 45 seconds, then the noise and laughter resumed. At that point, I decided to do something.

Bear in mind that I am not an imposing figure. I'm 5'9", mid 50's, and slim. I walked over to the table, and walked completely around it twice. I said, "I'd like y'all to hold down the noise for a while, please." One of the young men started to give me trash-talk but within seconds was elbowed by the guy next to him, who whispered something in his ear. Then everyone at the table said, "Yes, sir, or OK."

What made the difference? Open carry. I was wearing a 9mm semi-auto on my right hip. I never touched it and I made no threats, but it was nevertheless visible.


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To: CholeraJoe; All

Well, I have to leave this fascinating thread to get ready to go to church. It really torques my jaw that I can't carry my weapon into our church building. You can't imagine how many rude people there are in there. If I could open carry, you bet those people behind me would carry that fussy baby to "crying room". The circling part would be awkward, but I would manage it somehow. I mean, I have a right!!!


151 posted on 08/21/2005 7:12:21 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Some assembly required.)
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To: xcamel
CJ did no wrong


You need to rethink this.

Self defense is only justified if you are the victim. Sitting in a restaurant with loud patrons disturbing your quite does not make you a victim. In this case you complain to the manager, pay your bill and leave.

If after the waitress asked the group to be quiet, one or more of the men got up and approached CJ, then he may feel he was in danger. But that is not the case.

CJ approached the group himself, he was the aggressor.

Now let us pick up where one or more of the men in the group was too drunk to be intimated by his display, and got up to face off with him. Suppose one or more thought their live was in danger because they did not have a gun, and some stranger approaches and tells them to shut up?

Let us say someone does something stupid, CJ misinterprets their action pulls his gun and shoots someone. Who is at fault?

If I was on the jury CJ would be going to jail.

I am not a lawyer, but I do not believe you can be an aggressor and then claim self defense, when it would be just as easy to leave the restaurant.

If CJ can be so easily annoyed by the stupid behavior of others, perhaps he should not carry a weapon but that is a decision only he can make, and one that may end up costing him more then he expects.

152 posted on 08/21/2005 7:12:46 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: hombre_sincero
That's not the point here. The kids were rude, no doubt. But how CJ approached them was wrong. Had he stayed at his table and asked them to hold down the noise, He is within his right to do so. Had one of the kids got up and got in his face after that, the situation would be completely different. CJ would be within his rights to defend himself then, if things escalated.
153 posted on 08/21/2005 7:13:11 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: Dark Knight
If you were to use your concealed weapon,

It wasn't concealed. My state allows open carry. It was no more obtrusive than my bald head, and smaller.

154 posted on 08/21/2005 7:13:12 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: The Red Zone

Allen was the type that could.


155 posted on 08/21/2005 7:13:15 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: T Minus Four

There's this little Christian thing called "charity" y'know. It really gets in the way of our big egos.


156 posted on 08/21/2005 7:13:34 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: CholeraJoe

With the SLIGHT difference that your bald head could never kill anybody.


157 posted on 08/21/2005 7:14:20 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: R. Scott

Yep that's who I'm talkin' 'bout. LOL


158 posted on 08/21/2005 7:14:47 AM PDT by Ace the Biker (I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as fast as I could.)
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To: CholeraJoe
It was no more obtrusive than my bald head, and smaller.

A firearm is blatantly obtrusive.
159 posted on 08/21/2005 7:15:23 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: CholeraJoe
Wrong-o. You saw that sign that said "No shirt, no shoes, no service?" That sign is there because your presence there is at the owner's discretion. He can ax you to leave, or deny you service, if he doesn't like your looks.

For example, the next guy who walks into his place with a sidearm on his hip is going to be less welcome than you were.

Face it, you screwed up, and hopefully learned a lesson from it that you can pass on to others, including many in this forum.

I once went to an all-night diner in Fort Worth, Texas called The Pink Pony with my wife and one of her friends, and all I can say is I'm glad you weren't there, because everyone in the place was drunk and rowdy, including the three of us. The management didn't mind, as a matter of fact they expected it. It was 1:00 AM on Sunday morning...

160 posted on 08/21/2005 7:15:35 AM PDT by OKSooner (And besides, you're not the PO-lice.)
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To: hombre_sincero
Wow. That was well said.

You know, I recently sat through a bar fight in a hilton - still had no need to "show".

Just stayed out of the way.

161 posted on 08/21/2005 7:15:42 AM PDT by patton ("Hard Drive Cemetary" - forthcoming best seller)
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To: Ludicrous

Demanding? No.
Ask? Maybe.

Kids, in my opinion, are a special case. I don't ever ask mothers to quiet their kids on planes or in resaurants.
If the kids are running around and out of control, touching, grabing, headbutting me in the crotch, etc then I'll say something.
Otherwise, I remind myself that there is a God and this is what I get for being a bad kid.

We'll really know what God thinks of this if I have ever have daughters.

I'm "what if-ing" this to pieces in my head based on my two experiences. I'm a little hung up on playing duck duck goose around the table.
In one instance I politely asked some very loud kids to just hold it down so my Wife and I could talk. The were still loud, just not as loud.
In another case, when it was apparent that I was about to get my ass kicked I left.


162 posted on 08/21/2005 7:15:55 AM PDT by nerdwithamachinegun (All generalizations are wrong.)
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To: The Red Zone
With the SLIGHT difference that your bald head could never kill anybody.

At least not farther than two feet away. LOL!

163 posted on 08/21/2005 7:16:12 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: The Red Zone
There's this little Christian thing called "charity" y'know. It really gets in the way of our big egos.

I thought the sarcasm of my post #151 was so obvious, I didn't need to post a tag! Good grief!

164 posted on 08/21/2005 7:16:28 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Some assembly required.)
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To: CholeraJoe

So last night I took my wife out, we had a few drinks and I am sure the conversation we were having in Perkins at 2:00 in the morning was not real quiet. But then, most of the other customers were feeling pretty happy as well. Would you have taken the whole lot of us out so you could have some quiet? My 5 kids would have been awful dissapointed if we had not come home because I told you to sit down or leave and you had felt the need to act.

Where do you live that your firearm has kept you out of trouble? Have you stopped to examine if your assumption is a logical fallacy? I have NEVER carried a firearm in public- and so far my non-firearm has kept me out of trouble. Do you also credit your gun with the fact that the sun has risen every day since you started wearing it?


165 posted on 08/21/2005 7:16:55 AM PDT by ThinkingMan
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To: Dark Knight
Being loud is not being disorderly

I believe that deputies in my state actually make the decision as to want constitutes disorderly conduct.....

Here is the Texas Penal Code on Disorderly Conduct

§ 38.13. HINDERING PROCEEDINGS BY DISORDERLY[0] CONDUCT[0]. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally hinders an official proceeding by noise or violent or tumultuous behavior or disturbance. (b) A person commits an offense if he recklessly hinders an official proceeding by noise or violent or tumultuous behavior or disturbance and continues after explicit official request to desist. (c) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

166 posted on 08/21/2005 7:17:16 AM PDT by cbkaty (I may not always post...but I am always here......)
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To: CholeraJoe
Pumped two glasers into his skull. That's self-defense isn't it?


No it is not.

You have a serious need to talk to a lawyer and find out what self defense is. What you did, made you the aggressor, not the young adults. A case could be made that you were threatening, and they felt fear for their life. And remember, you said there were ten of them, if you killed one, that would leave nine words against your one word. Good luck at your trial.

167 posted on 08/21/2005 7:17:34 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: Ace the Biker

We thought they were good for laughs. I for one would not voluntarily carry all that extra weight if I didn’t have to – and having to clear three weapons every time I entered a building?


168 posted on 08/21/2005 7:17:47 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: CholeraJoe

You are a dangerous man, CJ


169 posted on 08/21/2005 7:19:11 AM PDT by Gabz (USSG Warning: portable sewing machines are known to cause broken ankles)
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To: T Minus Four

Just carrying on the irony, old pal.


170 posted on 08/21/2005 7:19:47 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: T Minus Four

I mean, packing irony.


171 posted on 08/21/2005 7:20:04 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: Dark Knight; All
More Texas Disorderly Conduct Codes

§ 42.01. DISORDERLY[0] CONDUCT[0]. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly: (1) uses abusive, indecent, profane, or vulgar language in a public place, and the language by its very utterance tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace; (2) makes an offensive gesture or display in a public place, and the gesture or display tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace; (3) creates, by chemical means, a noxious and unreasonable odor in a public place; (4) abuses or threatens a person in a public place in an obviously offensive manner; (5) makes unreasonable noise in a public place other than a sport shooting range, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code, or in or near a private residence that he has no right to occupy; (6) fights with another in a public place; (7) discharges a firearm in a public place other than a public road or a sport shooting range, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code; (8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm; (9) discharges a firearm on or across a public road; (10) exposes his anus or genitals in a public place and is reckless about whether another may be present who will be offended or alarmed by his act; or (11) for a lewd or unlawful purpose: (A) enters on the property of another and looks into a dwelling on the property through any window or other opening in the dwelling; (B) while on the premises of a hotel or comparable establishment, looks into a guest room not the person's own through a window or other opening in the room; or (C) while on the premises of a public place, looks into an area such as a restroom or shower stall or changing or dressing room that is designed to provide privacy to a person using the area. (b) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(4) that the actor had significant provocation for his abusive or threatening conduct[0]. (c) For purposes of this section: (1) an act is deemed to occur in a public place or near a private residence if it produces its offensive or proscribed consequences in the public place or near a private residence; and (2) a noise is presumed to be unreasonable if the noise exceeds a decibel level of 85 after the person making the noise receives notice from a magistrate or peace officer that the noise is a public nuisance. (d) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor unless committed under Subsection (a)(7) or (a)(8), in which event it is a Class B misdemeanor. (e) It is a defense to prosecution for an offense under Subsection (a)(7) or (9) that the person who discharged the firearm had a reasonable fear of bodily injury to the person or to another by a dangerous wild animal as defined by Section 822.101, Health and Safety Code.

172 posted on 08/21/2005 7:20:35 AM PDT by cbkaty (I may not always post...but I am always here......)
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To: CholeraJoe

I simply asked them to keep the noise to a reasonable level."

I don't believe you would have did it if you hadn't been armed.
"I made no threats, nor touched my weapon."

""but it was nevertheless visible.""

That was a threat.

It would not surprise me if they thought you were a nut trying to provoke them so you would have an excuse to kill someone.Are you? Were you?


173 posted on 08/21/2005 7:21:10 AM PDT by philetus (What goes around comes around)
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To: The Red Zone

OH, whew!




174 posted on 08/21/2005 7:21:22 AM PDT by T Minus Four (Some assembly required.)
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To: CholeraJoe
"Pumped two glasers into his skull. That's self-defense isn't it?"
Sorry pal, you're out of bounds. If this incident had of escalated, you'd be found the guilty party.
50 year old dudes don't do well in prison.
175 posted on 08/21/2005 7:22:14 AM PDT by investigateworld ( God bless Poland for giving the world JP II & a Protestant bump for his Sainthood!)
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To: OKSooner
You saw that sign that said "No shirt, no shoes, no service?"

What about all of the lunch counters in the south that refused to serve blacks in the 60's? They were forced to integrate at gunpoint. Any establishment open to the public must accept any law-abiding customer. I was a law-abiding customer.

The "No shirt, no shoes, no service" might well be as illegal as "No blacks."

176 posted on 08/21/2005 7:22:32 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: Arkie2

Seems like he was looking for trouble at that time of the morning.


177 posted on 08/21/2005 7:22:33 AM PDT by bethelgrad (for God, country, the Marine Corps, and now the Navy Chaplain Corps OOH RAH!)
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To: Dark Knight
"Guns are for life and death decisions... I would NEVER extend it to being loud.."

Sound advice.
There is a time to turn the other cheek AND a time to stand opposed.

178 posted on 08/21/2005 7:22:59 AM PDT by labette (A living, breathing, constitution is the model of doublespeak.)
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To: Fzob
So are you making the argument that based on time and location it is ok to act like an asshat in a business establishment annoying other customers. After all it was a breakfast joint not a bar.


Well Doh! Yes, the time and place can dictate behaviour. It was 4:30 am, a time most are not up. This group evidently had been up all night. They were feeling good, and as those that drink a little too much will do, they were loud. The place was empty until CJ should up. If I was writing rules of behaviour, it would allow the group that was there first to continue as they were, it is up to the new guy to decide if he wants to stay or go.

It has been a very long time since I was young enough to pull an all nighter, but I can remember being loud and annoying, and if I could I would apologize to all those I may have offended, but I do excuse such behavior as being young and foolish and full of life. I tend to give young people the benefit of doubt when it comes to this type of behavior, since society will soon beat it out of them as they mature.

179 posted on 08/21/2005 7:24:01 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: CholeraJoe

To summarize...

It is okay for a person with a firearm to impose his will on others, even though they are acting in a legal manner.

By displaying the weapon, which you give credit for "changing the behavior of the rowdies," (my words) there was an implicit threat. You can lawyer that statement all you want, but your words indicate an intent to threaten.

You do not have a right to a quiet breakfast. There was no threat of injury to you or anyone else.

I support the right to carry. I do not support the right to threaten in any way those whose behavior you do not like. Your original post indicates that was your intent.

This act showed extremely poor judgment for a number of reasons. The idea that you think you can "out-lawyer" your actions by saying you never touched your weapon, only displayed it, does not change that fact.


180 posted on 08/21/2005 7:25:46 AM PDT by TN4Liberty (American... conservative... southern.... It doesn't get any better than this.)
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To: CholeraJoe

Well it's clear then. Discrimination against loud people.


181 posted on 08/21/2005 7:26:11 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: nerdwithamachinegun
Does being armed mean that one is legally required to endure impoliteness?

Not at all. But does the fact that he was armed allow him to enforce public decorum when he probably wouldn't have done so if he was unarmed? I would have gotten my BLT to go.

182 posted on 08/21/2005 7:26:20 AM PDT by SnuffaBolshevik
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To: hopespringseternal
So if a cop in uniform who was eating after getting off duty asked them to keep it down, could he be arrested for threatening them? Of course not.


Wrong analogy. A police officer has legal authority to enforce the "peace". Individual officers may step over the line at times, but that is a judgement call. I would think if a uniformed police officer would have entered the diner the group would have quited down on its own.

183 posted on 08/21/2005 7:27:16 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: TN4Liberty
even though they are acting in a legal manner.

Drunk and disorderly in public is legal? Let's party, Dude!

184 posted on 08/21/2005 7:28:51 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: CholeraJoe
Nothing I did was threatening. The weapon on my hip was no more obtrusive than my bald head.

It just goes to show, you never know what kind of riff-raff you'll run into in a diner at 4:30 in the morning. With the vastness of cyberspace, I imagine there must be a forum somewhere where 10 young adults have posted a vanity about their close encounter with an armed, bald-headed grump who disrupted their breakfast.

Thankfully, they had the commonsense not to aggravate or confront this weird loner.
Somebody could've gotten hurt.

And I bet you didn't notice, the waitress probably switched you to decaff...

185 posted on 08/21/2005 7:30:06 AM PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Willie Green
And I bet you didn't notice, the waitress probably switched you to decaff...

I've been off caffeine for years.

186 posted on 08/21/2005 7:32:16 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: CholeraJoe
After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes,

Drunk and disorderly in public is legal? Let's party, Dude!

Is raucous laughter the same as Drunk and disorderly ?

Is this tale growing? I hope you tipped the waitress well.

187 posted on 08/21/2005 7:33:06 AM PDT by evolved_rage
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To: MeneMeneTekelUpharsin
Also, I have just about developed a new philosophy of self-defense. It occurred to me that gasoline would be a very effective means of reducing the use of firearms. If someone looks like (s)he has a tendency to pull and fire, just spread gasoline around. If you're going to kill me, we both might as well go up in flames. It would also prevent a lot of unauthorized dynamic entries into homes, etc. by those who shouldn't be there. Who in his/her right mind is going to fire a weapon with gasoline everywhere? Oops, forgot. Waco.


You need to watch more Mythbusters on TV. They showed it is not as easy as Hollywood portrays to start a gasoline fire. Fireing a weapon in gasoline will not make it ignite. (They actually found dropping a lit cigarette did not do it, and they even had a hard time with a match).

I am afraid a gasoline moat is not going to do much but make you sick.

188 posted on 08/21/2005 7:34:33 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: OKSooner
The restaurant is private property, and it's the owner's place to tell 'em that

I agree 100%....

189 posted on 08/21/2005 7:35:22 AM PDT by cbkaty (I may not always post...but I am always here......)
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To: CholeraJoe
What made the difference? Open carry. I was wearing a 9mm semi-auto on my right hip. I never touched it and I made no threats, but it was nevertheless visible

I guess the were all white kids. Don't try
that in the city, they will tell you to F'off
if they speak english and shoot you in the parking
lot.

Are you from Montana? Strange, the kids
were just having some fun.

Should have joined them...

190 posted on 08/21/2005 7:36:34 AM PDT by Major_Risktaker
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To: All

After reading the comments from punks and non punks...I think the only resolution to the noise problem at 4:30 am in a truck stop was "take out". Why deliberately ask for trouble when the intended result would probably be a certain lockup if things went wrong!!


191 posted on 08/21/2005 7:36:44 AM PDT by cousair
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To: SnuffaBolshevik

If he had just asked without making two laps around the table then I would not call it "enforcing public decorum".


192 posted on 08/21/2005 7:37:51 AM PDT by nerdwithamachinegun (All generalizations are wrong.)
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To: evolved_rage

Raucous laughter punctuated with four letter words and racial slurs is pretty disorderly.


193 posted on 08/21/2005 7:38:18 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: CholeraJoe

Obviously they weren't quite the thugs you paint them as. Had you pulled that stunt in Oak Cliff (Dallas neighborhood) you'd have been shown enough hardware to liberate a small Central American country for the 3rd time this year. Which is in itself rather moot as you'd have been arrested long before that as open carry is illegal in Texas.


194 posted on 08/21/2005 7:39:27 AM PDT by Melas (The dumber the troll, the longer the thread)
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To: CholeraJoe

I'm crabby in the morning too but you were wrong. You should have gotten a to go box.


195 posted on 08/21/2005 7:39:38 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: CholeraJoe

Okay,say they jazzed up your approach (after a hungry attorney contacted them). You circled their table twice with a menacing look, you were cocky when you ask them to pipe down, maybe with some good body language references...

If you used your weapon on them, and the waitress confirmed you circled their table twice, their story will screw you. Especially, if it over noise alone.

Hey, don't trust me on this, ask a defense attorney in your state for the gory details. They'll know.

Bottom line in most states, if it is not felony, use a weapon and you will be screwed.

You confronted a party of ten openly carrying. Over noise. They could articulate a reason for subduing you, possibly using lethal force in the process.

They might get off. You probably would not. When you decided to carry, you took on life and death responsibilities. You may want to consult an attorney with experiece on this issue in you state before you choose to do something like this again.

Also, if you are sued, this whole exchange on FR will be fair game. Choose your online words carefully. FR is a public forum. Welcome to the real world.


DK


196 posted on 08/21/2005 7:39:42 AM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: corlorde
Join me for a cup of coffee at my table, trooper. It's the one in the corner behind the razor wire and the claymores. Make sure you have the password.

BTW, all of my ordinance is silenced, as I cannot stand noise at 4:30 AM, either.

197 posted on 08/21/2005 7:39:43 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk
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To: Arkie2

Excellent points.


198 posted on 08/21/2005 7:40:23 AM PDT by Melas (The dumber the troll, the longer the thread)
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To: CholeraJoe

"Have you ever heard of "Drunk and Disorderly," or its cousin "Prejudicial to good order and discipline?""

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

As an officer, you're not doing a d&*n thing without a complaint from the property owner in a restaurant where the clientele are all sitting and eating.

Your post also includes the mens rea for assault.


199 posted on 08/21/2005 7:41:21 AM PDT by rwilson99 (South Park (R)
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To: Willie Green
Willie ... that was actually funny.

WHo are you, and what have you done with the real Mr. Green?

200 posted on 08/21/2005 7:42:32 AM PDT by patton ("Hard Drive Cemetary" - forthcoming best seller)
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