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Never, Ever Leave home without It.
Real Life | 8/21/2005 | CholeraJoe

Posted on 08/21/2005 6:02:36 AM PDT by CholeraJoe

"Never, ever leave home without it." No, not your American Express card, your sidearm.

This morning, I woke up about 4:15 and was hungry, so I decided to drive to the local 24-hour beanery. The only other customers were a table of 10, intoxicated 20-somethings making alot of noise.

There were 7 muscular young men and three loud-mouthed young women. After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes, I politely asked the waitress to ask them to hold down the noise. All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace.

Her request for quiet lasted about 45 seconds, then the noise and laughter resumed. At that point, I decided to do something.

Bear in mind that I am not an imposing figure. I'm 5'9", mid 50's, and slim. I walked over to the table, and walked completely around it twice. I said, "I'd like y'all to hold down the noise for a while, please." One of the young men started to give me trash-talk but within seconds was elbowed by the guy next to him, who whispered something in his ear. Then everyone at the table said, "Yes, sir, or OK."

What made the difference? Open carry. I was wearing a 9mm semi-auto on my right hip. I never touched it and I made no threats, but it was nevertheless visible.


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To: CholeraJoe
I have taken my .9 mm and laid in on the dash of my car in plain sight when I have felt threatened once. Also, MANY years ago, when I was in grad school delivering pizza on weekends to make extra money (a wife and two kids) I have let the grip of a pistol "hang out" of my pocket as I was walking up the sidewalk as I walked past a bunch of guys at 12:00 midnight in the projects. Those are the ONLY two times I have ever displayed a firearm. Guns are for self defense, not to make the restaurant nice and quiet so you can eat the way you like. Relying on your strap on (double entendre intended) to make you a badass actually makes you a poster child for the anti gun nuts. Bragging about it makes you a DUMB poster child for the anti gun nuts. I am a fanatic for rtkba, and unfortunately, I realize that this right must protect your rights as well, even though I think you a BAD BAD BAD example of how to utilize a gun.

Keep it up and someday you will meet someone who is more stupid than you are, and you can spend the rest of your life either justifying how you shot that stupid punk, or wondering at how fast he was able to pin your arm so you could not get it out, and then marvelling at how he beat the living sh!t out of you.

201 posted on 08/21/2005 7:43:05 AM PDT by chronic_loser
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To: CIB-173RDABN

The funny thing about gasoline, is that it often lights up with just a spark, when you don't want it to. It's not the bullet that lights it up, but if that bullet has a metal jacket, like a hornady 45 xtp hollow point, the spark it makes bouncing off the concrete will.


202 posted on 08/21/2005 7:43:16 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: patton
I have had a CCW for about five years - and I have never "showed" to anyone.
What you did was wrong.

If this were a CCW situation I would agree with you. We should never show a firearm to impose our will on another. However, this was not a CCW. It was open carry, a permissible act in many states.

What happened here was simply a person asking for civil behavior from another. Perfectly legal and needed far more today IMO.

Choosing to carry openly is not a reason to give up standards or the ability to ask for civil behavior.

203 posted on 08/21/2005 7:44:43 AM PDT by kAcknor (Don't flatter yourself.... It is a gun in my pocket.)
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To: CholeraJoe
Pumped two glasers into his skull. That's self-defense isn't it?

But you weren't looking for trouble...yeah...right. And that circling the table twice, that wasn't so that they could all get a glimpse of your bad-assed little piece right? Uh-huh...sure. The more comments I read, and the more I think about it, the more I realize that it's a pity you weren't arrested for menacing.

204 posted on 08/21/2005 7:45:15 AM PDT by Melas (The dumber the troll, the longer the thread)
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To: CholeraJoe
"The "No shirt, no shoes, no service" might well be as illegal as "No blacks.""

Only in your unique way of thinking.

Face it, you initiated a potentially deadly confrontation over nothing. Nothing but some conduct you perceived as impolite. I tried to be polite to you the first time, but honestly the fact that you confronted these people over something as low-stakes as some drunken loudness makes you look like a small person.

I'm gonna step out of this conversation because at this point I don't want to be seen talking to you. Go ahead and have the last word...

205 posted on 08/21/2005 7:45:22 AM PDT by OKSooner (And besides, you're still not the PO-lice.)
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To: CholeraJoe
You should have put that in the original vanity, otherwise it sounds like people laughing and talking and sobering up, rather than disorderly racial cussing, etc, etc. and it makes you look like somebody who couldn't sleep, perhaps a little tired, and wanted to impose their will on a situation underway.
206 posted on 08/21/2005 7:45:32 AM PDT by evolved_rage
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To: patton

"What you did was wrong."

Affirmative.


207 posted on 08/21/2005 7:46:38 AM PDT by e_castillo
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To: CholeraJoe

Cholera Joe,

I live in Massachustts, a traditionally anti-gun state, so perhaps I treat my concealed carry permit with some delicacy, since it was so touchy to get it.

When I applied, my instructor suggested I request a concealed carry permit. My town requires that I have to write a letter to the Chief of Police explaining why I need it.

I know that rankles people who don't live here, and I understand why, but that is the rule in my town.

My instructor explained: The Chief of Police doesn't want to have to explain later on why he approved a concealed carry permit for a murderer.

So, I disagree with what you did. Doesn't make me right, but just my opinion. If they had been harassing other diners, throwing food around, and perhaps telling the owner to shove it, maybe it might have been appropriate.

In this case, noisy, intoxicated post-adolecents...I don' t really think so.


208 posted on 08/21/2005 7:46:45 AM PDT by rlmorel ("Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does." Whittaker Chambers)
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To: CholeraJoe

what state has open carry?


209 posted on 08/21/2005 7:47:41 AM PDT by e_castillo
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To: CholeraJoe; XJarhead
If I owned that establishment, I would consider 10 rowdy kids at 4:30 am much less of a problem than a lone guy wearing a gun. Frankly, I wouldn't permit firearms in my establishment anyway unless they are worn by cops.

The Switzerland argument is total crap. The Swiss do not carry their Swiss Army Weapons around town and brandish them openly -- that would be a crime! The guns are kept at home as part of the Swiss defense strategery.

People like you are the best argument against allowing weapons in public. Your actions were beyond irresponsible. What gave YOU the right to decide the noise policy inside a restaurant and then threaten other customers with your obvious intimidation tactic backed up with a gun? Were you the owner, manager, or a cop? No, you were just another customer making a complete fool of yourself -- and for what? Noise?

The fact that you are so proud of yourself for scaring a bunch of kids is the most pathetic part of this disgraceful tale.

210 posted on 08/21/2005 7:48:58 AM PDT by You Dirty Rats (Forget Cindy; The Problem Is The Left and MSM Who Use Her to Attack Bush AND Our Troops!!)
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To: Nathan Zachary

Agreed,it is the fumes that ignite, not the liquid.


211 posted on 08/21/2005 7:49:32 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: CholeraJoe

By my figuring, I've had about 17,000 breakfasts so far. Shame I didn't know in advance I was entitled for every last one of them to be exactly the way I wanted. Guess I'm a pussy.


212 posted on 08/21/2005 7:51:16 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim (Now that taglines are cool, I refuse to have one.)
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To: Melas
open carry is illegal in Texas.

Surprising. Not only is open carry legal in Montana, concealed carry without a permit is legal while engaged in, travelling to or returning from any outdoor activity in which self-defense might be necessary, such as hiking, hunting, fishing, skiing, snowmobiling, etc, as long as one is outside city limits.

213 posted on 08/21/2005 7:51:48 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: cbkaty

Thanks for the code. My humble cusory reading doesn't see any violation, that should involve the police.

There were no fighting words, exposures, unreasonable noises (disrupting the business in question).

If that table refused to be quiet, at the request of one patron, and the restaurant staff chose not to call the police, what is the violation?

DK


214 posted on 08/21/2005 7:51:50 AM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: CholeraJoe
Nothing I did was threatening. The weapon on my hip was no more obtrusive than my bald head.

Did it occur to you that one of those muscular young men could have jumped you & grabbed your gun?

And pointed it at you?

215 posted on 08/21/2005 7:53:18 AM PDT by Republic If You Can Keep It
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To: dangerdoc
I am all for carry, either open or concealed. But, I believe that if you choose to carry, you have an extra responsibility to avoid confrontation.

Right. I must comment that since being LTC, I find I no longer get angry in traffic, and have become more passive. I just keep out of the way of @ssholes.

I hate paperwork, and courts, and things like that. Even if someone does a vehicular assault that I can prove, and I (rightly) plug him between the eyes, I am probably going to lose my house paying for legal fees, and possibly my freedom.

Things can escalate too fast. This is not a rehearsal, it's for all the chips.

216 posted on 08/21/2005 7:53:46 AM PDT by Gorzaloon
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To: nerdwithamachinegun
"Individual self defense is secondary and incidental to that from what I've read in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers."

Neither the Federalist nor the Anti-Federalist papers address the Bill of Rights--they only address the text of the un-amended Constitution. If you want to understand the Federal Constitution's Bill of Rights, the place to look is at the pre-Constitution Bills of Rights of the various states. The best statement is from the Connecticut state constitution (paraphrasing, as I don't have the exact quote handy) "that the people have the right to keep and bear arms for defense of themselves and their own state, and the taking of game". Self defense, militia duty, and hunting were ALL reasons for codifying the RKBA.

217 posted on 08/21/2005 7:54:13 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: The Red Zone

218 posted on 08/21/2005 7:54:24 AM PDT by Boazo (From the mind of BOAZO)
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To: Dark Knight

See a couple of my prior posts. The raucous laughter was punctuated by four letter words and racial slurs.


219 posted on 08/21/2005 7:55:10 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: e_castillo

Arizona is one state I know of.

NC theoretically has open carry, but it would be insane to try it here in Chapel Hill.

If anything, carrying openly demands that you show MORE courtesy, restraint, and civility. Having a lethal weapon on your person demands that you take more crap off people than you normally would.

This comes from a 5.9" guy who got into constant fights in HS while weighing less than 160 lbs. Carrying that kind of chip on your shoulder when sporting a weapon is a recipe for trouble. A firearm is the LAST resort for settling problems, not a flashing billboard to announce that you can't be ****ed around with.


220 posted on 08/21/2005 7:55:32 AM PDT by chronic_loser
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To: Arkie2
Good thing it wasn't my table.

Your car would have had 4 flat tires and excellent cursive writing on it with my key.

Hope you enjoyed your eggs.

221 posted on 08/21/2005 7:56:33 AM PDT by DCPatriot
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To: Boazo
LOL!

I had no idea this thread would stir up such a hornet's nest.

222 posted on 08/21/2005 7:57:16 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: cbkaty
Disorderly conduct? I think that had they been drinking & were intoxicated, the possibility of PI would also be in order....

They weren't in "public." The fact that you can't grasp that simple fact is troubling

223 posted on 08/21/2005 7:58:27 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: e_castillo

Louisiana, Vermont and Montana for starters.


224 posted on 08/21/2005 7:58:30 AM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Cowboy the f*ck up!" LT Waters in "Tears of the Sun")
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To: CholeraJoe
BzzzZzzzzzZZzzzzzzzzZZZ!
225 posted on 08/21/2005 7:58:46 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: CholeraJoe; Eaker
So your basic point is that carrying a gun made you enough of a badass
to enforce your will on a group of people whose behavior you disagreed with?

I think you need to seriously analyze your reasons for carrying.

And by the way, somebody tries that crap with me they are likely to lose their gun and maybe get a broken wrist if they hurry me.

226 posted on 08/21/2005 7:59:25 AM PDT by humblegunner (If you're gonna die, die with your boots on.)
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To: Bommer
what is all this shoulda coulda or woulda? It did not happen, and all is good. Give this guy his due.

Hell, I could leave my house armed and run into a number of people with a gun who might want a fight. That does not prevent me from leaving my home! Most people who know that you are armed do not, especially when they believe that to confront someone (with malicious intent) that they too could be shot in the process.

Anyway, it did not happen, he had his breakfast, and the young people maybe learned that others also frequent "public places."
227 posted on 08/21/2005 8:00:05 AM PDT by standing united (82nd ABN 1/508th BN Bco 1st Sqd. Alpha Fireteam Leader: "fury from the sky" 8-Duce on the Loose!!)
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To: CholeraJoe
Drunk and disorderly in public is legal? Let's party, Dude!

Then call a cop. Thank heavens they weren't speeding.

228 posted on 08/21/2005 8:00:12 AM PDT by TN4Liberty (American... conservative... southern.... It doesn't get any better than this.)
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To: cbkaty
How in heaven's name would you know this? Big assumption..... Not everyone carrying is an idiot and untrained in the proper use of firearms in self defense.

If you're willing to take on 7 adversaries at contact distance by yourself, it's clear you have had no training.

229 posted on 08/21/2005 8:00:28 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: Boazo

Poor CJ. He probably thought he was going to get a chorus of "Right On's" on FR. Ah well, you live you learn. A good thing, in this case. I have done stuff in a vacuum before, and when I told others about it, I did not get the response I expected. Gave me time to think about it.


230 posted on 08/21/2005 8:00:50 AM PDT by rlmorel ("Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does." Whittaker Chambers)
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To: dakine
Billy Bad-ass? Chip on shoulder?...or both...

My money's on small penis.

231 posted on 08/21/2005 8:01:02 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: CholeraJoe
Drunk and disorderly in public is legal? Let's party, Dude!

As long as the owner/manager of the establishment doesn't object, yes.

232 posted on 08/21/2005 8:01:06 AM PDT by Gabz (USSG Warning: portable sewing machines are known to cause broken ankles)
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To: usnjay
I think what's really bothering everyone is the fact you circled the table.

Yep. Even though he's likely to deny it, you know he circled the table so everyone could get a good glimpse of the 9 on his hip. That would be menacing in my state.

233 posted on 08/21/2005 8:01:22 AM PDT by Melas (The dumber the troll, the longer the thread)
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To: CholeraJoe

See a couple of my prior posts. The raucous laughter was punctuated by four letter words and racial slurs.<<

So what the F is your point? Are you gonna shoot'em for offensive laguage?

Do you like owning your home or want to give it to them in most idiotic method possible?

DK


234 posted on 08/21/2005 8:01:54 AM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: Wolfie

ROFLMAO


235 posted on 08/21/2005 8:03:09 AM PDT by Ace the Biker (I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as fast as I could.)
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To: The Red Zone

LOL...


236 posted on 08/21/2005 8:03:24 AM PDT by rlmorel ("Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does." Whittaker Chambers)
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To: CholeraJoe

You're a nut and a liar.

"After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes, I politely asked the waitress to ask them to hold down the noise. All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace.

Her request for quiet lasted about 45 seconds, then the noise and laughter resumed. At that point, I decided to do something."

In your original post you only cite raucous laughter no cursing, no racial slurs. Nothing.

When your story has to change that's a sign that you admit you were wrong and go home.


237 posted on 08/21/2005 8:03:57 AM PDT by rwilson99 (South Park (R)
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To: Wolfie

hahaha...see post #83...


238 posted on 08/21/2005 8:04:02 AM PDT by dakine
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To: CholeraJoe

Uh, the discrimination laws are specific, ie, one may not discriminate against race, color, sex, creed, religion.

It doesn't say you may not discriminate for ANY reason.

Read the law, cowboy.


239 posted on 08/21/2005 8:04:49 AM PDT by Sometimes A River (Che Guevera isn't cool)
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To: dangerdoc

Ditto - If you all can "what if" it to death, so can I.


240 posted on 08/21/2005 8:06:12 AM PDT by xcamel (Deep Red, stuck in a "bleu" state.)
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To: CholeraJoe
re:Yup.
 
Uh... yeah...
Cowboy up, Barney!

241 posted on 08/21/2005 8:06:21 AM PDT by tomakaze (Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.)
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To: CholeraJoe

Is it up to you to enforce the drunk and disorderly laws in your town?

I doubt you would have even made a move if you didn't bring your weapon with you.


242 posted on 08/21/2005 8:06:23 AM PDT by Sometimes A River (Che Guevera isn't cool)
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To: CholeraJoe

After having stuck around reading more of this post than I intended (and many of your responses) I have a question.

Do you in any way feel that you were wrong in your actions now that you have read multiple opinions that you were?


243 posted on 08/21/2005 8:06:48 AM PDT by catiwompus
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To: Gabz
Remember when Fairfax was arresting people for being drunk - in a bar?

BTW, open carry is legal in VA.

244 posted on 08/21/2005 8:10:33 AM PDT by patton ("Hard Drive Cemetary" - forthcoming best seller)
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To: CholeraJoe

I pulled and fired a gun more than once at people, but one
time it cost me. I didn't hit the person, thank God! I was
arrested on the side of I-90 in Washington State.Stupid,
stupid,stupid!!! I have never carried again.That was 25 years
a go.I carried a Dan Wesson 357 and thought I was Dirty Harry.


245 posted on 08/21/2005 8:10:58 AM PDT by Boazo (From the mind of BOAZO)
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To: CholeraJoe
Drunk and disorderly in public is legal? Let's party, Dude!

Then you should have called the cops, Deputy.

Oh, that's right, they would have laughed your ass off the phone.

246 posted on 08/21/2005 8:11:13 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: patton

That's like arresting people for smoking - in a cigar bar!

DE has open carry as well.


247 posted on 08/21/2005 8:12:16 AM PDT by Gabz (USSG Warning: portable sewing machines are known to cause broken ankles)
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To: cbkaty; CholeraJoe
(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

Disorderly conduct. Circling the table with it prominently in view, especially in the context of a conflict, is more serious than disorderly conduct, I think.

Probably the only reason you didn't go to jail that night is because you victims were worried about driving home with alcohol on their breath after giving their statements to the cops that would have arrested you. If someone sober had been among the group, you might be out 1 kidney after the first time you ignored their instructions to "STAY DOWN!" until the police arrive.

I'd love to hear you explain to the cops, and later, the judge just what, exactly, was your purpose in circling the table twice before you gave them your super-polite little 'Billy Jack' speech.

I tell ya, CJ, you chose the Way of the Little Asshole. I know we can look at the technicalities of the laws in this state or that, but, bottom line, you came into a place that was the way it was before you got there, and you used your gun to bend it to your preferences. "Once shot a man, just fer snorin'!"

I think it's pretty obvious that, if the shoe was on the other foot and some young guy came up to your table and asked you and your buddies to "please try to keep it down so the rest of us can enjoy our meals in peace," you'd stand up with your gun on your hip, circle him twice, and say something like, "This isn't a library, we have a right to talk any way we want, we were already here when you came in, if you don't like it, leave!"

248 posted on 08/21/2005 8:12:43 AM PDT by Yeti
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To: Dark Knight

"....cusory reading doesn't see any violation,..."

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

the above paragraph has got Joe deadnuts.....I'm sure that any lawyer present will agree.


249 posted on 08/21/2005 8:13:15 AM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: CholeraJoe
I can't believe you did that to those kids. You intimidated them into submission because you had a gun. What IF one of those drunk, obnoxious kids had been armed and reacted to your implied threat? Several people could have died in a shootout. Were you prepared for that scenario? IMO, you handled that situation wrong.
250 posted on 08/21/2005 8:14:14 AM PDT by NRA2BFree (veni vidi Visa - I came, I saw, I shopped!)
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