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Add to Katrina's toll race-tinged rhetoric (Rush, O'Reilly and Glen Beck dividing country)
St. Petersburg Times ^ | September 14, 2005 | ERIC DEGGANS

Posted on 09/14/2005 1:58:45 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife

This is where the blame game gets ugly.

"So every American kid should be required to watch videotape of the poor in New Orleans and see how they suffered (after Hurricane Katrina), because they couldn't get out of town," said Fox News Channel pundit Bill O'Reilly last week on his show, The O'Reilly Factor .

"And then, every teacher should tell the students, "If you refuse to learn, if you refuse to work hard, if you become addicted, if you live a gangsta-life, you will be poor and powerless just like many of those in New Orleans."'

This was how O'Reilly chose to deflect criticism of the federal government after the horrific delays in hurricane relief. Government is fallible, he argued. So why expect it to save you?

The larger implications of his words also are obvious. These often poor, often black hurricane victims brought all this misery and death on themselves, because they weren't motivated enough to succeed in America.

In the same way that live coverage of the aftermath exposed the fissure between haves and have-nots when disaster strikes, the subsequent reaction of some pundits has unearthed the race-tinged rhetoric they often use to justify their arguments.

Conservative radio personality Rush Limbaugh was more explicit, saying New Orleans (which has a black mayor and many black officials) had a "welfare state mentality" that kept some residents from earning enough to handle the disaster.

"The nonblack population was just as devastated, but apparently they were able to get out," Limbaugh, who is white, said on his show Sept. 1. "Race, in this circumstance, is a poisonous weapon, and it's why the liberals are now gravitating to it."

A synopsis on the Web site for evangelist Pat Robertson's 700 Club show outlined a recent appearance by conservative black minister Wellington Boone, who talked about "the culture of those people stranded in New Orleans" and how it led to their fate.

"The looting of property, the trashing of property, etc. speaks to the basic character of the people," read the recap of Boone's appearance on CBN.com. "These people who have gone through slavery, segregation and the Voting Rights Act are doing this to themselves. They look like a developing nation."

Imagine the headlines nationally if Robertson, who is white, had made that "developing nation" crack instead of a black minister.

Gangsta lifestyle. Welfare mentality. Developing nation. All code words often used as unflattering, veiled references to people of color.

"My encouragement to journalists is to not use labels," said Aly Colon, an instructor on ethics and diversity issues at the Poynter Institute for Media Studies, which owns the St. Petersburg Times . "As you see picture after picture of people who you understand to be poor and you see to be black, if you know nothing else about New Orleans, that becomes New Orleans. You have no sense of context."

Indeed, the images of looting and violence were horrific, as a ruthless contingent of lawbreakers stole unneeded items, shot at police officers and worse.

But such actions also helped some commentators push their own punitive political perspective, lumping innocent victims together with aggressive criminals in their own backward "blame game."

Colon noted race and class stereotypes evoked in such media coverage are particularly important, if only because they can soothe the sensibilities of those already hoping to see most hurricane victims as somehow deserving of their desperate fate.

Another radio personality, former Tampa talker Glenn Beck, made a similar point Friday in detailing how he's beginning to hate the hurricane victims in New Orleans, because they wouldn't line up in an orderly fashion to get $2,000 ATM cards.

"Those are the only ones we're seeing on television are the scumbags," said Beck, who now broadcasts from Philadelphia.

"It's just a small percentage of those who were left in New Orleans, or who decided to stay in New Orleans, and they're getting all the attention."

As America tackles public policy changes in the wake of Katrina, how will the stereotypes created by pundits such as Beck, O'Reilly and Limbaugh affect the debate? At a time when unity is so important, the words of those who profit by keeping us apart are the last we should heed.

--Eric Deggans can be reached at 727 893-8521 or deggans@sptimes.com


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Louisiana
KEYWORDS: beck; boone; democraticparty; katrina; limbaugh; oreilly; politics; poor; racism; robertson; welfare
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To: .cnI redruM

I know.

Popular culture is nutty - emulating the prison coiterre line.


51 posted on 09/14/2005 4:28:56 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: libertylover

That's just it.


52 posted on 09/14/2005 4:29:27 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: G.Mason

Is he brain dead or a bought and paid for Democrat apologist?


53 posted on 09/14/2005 4:31:27 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
I think what should be told to kids (and adults) is, if you see a hurricane coming, and are told to leave the area, LEAVE THE AREA!!
54 posted on 09/14/2005 4:31:43 AM PDT by airborne
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To: airborne

Can't argue with that!


55 posted on 09/14/2005 4:34:04 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
The larger implications of his words also are obvious. These often poor, often black hurricane victims brought all this misery and death on themselves, because they weren't motivated enough to succeed in America.

It would appear that the truth hurts to these people.
When you subsidize something you get more of it.That is what the welfare state has done.
When you make abnormal behavior the norm you remove the stigma from that behavior.For the overall betterment of a society,citizens should feel embarrassed by underachievement yet libs have encouraged it and have made poverty and the acceptance of that state generational.Add to that the feeling of victimhood and you have a subculture that is counter to what this country was built on.

Unlike Communism which must be enforced by the point of a sword,our version of collectivism is creating a willful dependence of uneducated,unmotivated people.
Libs don`t like it when you peek under the covers.

56 posted on 09/14/2005 4:34:48 AM PDT by carlr
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

This chump should read the LAT's (major suprise) account of the white working class people of St.Bernard's parish and then compare it to the mayhem committed by the too numerous thugs of NOLA.


57 posted on 09/14/2005 4:35:56 AM PDT by junta (Invade Mexico, aggressively neutralize its corrupt leadership and introduce civilization.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
As America tackles public policy changes in the wake of Katrina, how will the stereotypes created by pundits such as Beck, O'Reilly and Limbaugh affect the debate? At a time when unity is so important, the words of those who profit by keeping us apart are the last we should heed.

Oh, please. If this columnist wants to complain about folks not being UNIFYING, he needs to talk about the Rev. Al Charlatan, Jesse Jackson and Calypso Louie, who have billed this as "George Bush hates black people" from the get-go!

58 posted on 09/14/2005 4:36:46 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: listenhillary

Excellent point by John Stossel. There is another thing I noticed in my much younger days about government welfare system. The bureaucrats had no interest in really helping their "clients". The "clients" were supposed to just stay on the dole, and stay at the bottom. Any "client" who did anything on his or her own was viewed as a threat to the bureaucrat - a threat to the bureaucrat's job if enough "clients" got the same idea. (Much like any student daring to do any real learning at Newark Central High School was an Uncle Tom/Oreo Cookie/Race Traitor/even White M.F.). Yes, that mentality was glaringly obvious in Newark, NJ, in the mid to late 1970's.


59 posted on 09/14/2005 4:37:05 AM PDT by Fred Hayek (Liberalism is a mental disorder)
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To: libertylover
I guess Mr. Deggans (et al) just can't handle the truth.

the truth = the poison

60 posted on 09/14/2005 4:37:13 AM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :^)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
I guess Mr. Deggans (et al) just can't handle the truth.

the truth = the poison

61 posted on 09/14/2005 4:37:48 AM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :^)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
"Is he brain dead or a bought and paid for Democrat apologist?"


I'm not sure what adjective to hang on him. None would be too nice.


He has written about our despicable military and the panty on head torture, but then so has every leftist shrill. I would assume that he can't throw off his crutch like Clarence Thomas or Condoleeza Rice did, but must continually wail and gnash his teeth about the white mans oppressive nature.



62 posted on 09/14/2005 4:42:06 AM PDT by G.Mason
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

redundancy alert


63 posted on 09/14/2005 4:43:22 AM PDT by cyborg (I finally got a job today. Thank you God. Thank you Our Lady of Lourdes' prayer petition.)
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To: cyborg

LOL.

You're right. They're not mutually exclusive.


64 posted on 09/14/2005 4:44:48 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: G.Mason

He's no free thinker.

It's just the party line - and not very well done.


65 posted on 09/14/2005 4:47:34 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: elli1
15. Ruthless contingent of lawbreakers ;)

I have often wondered whether that makes the rest of us Ruthful?

And does Ruth know?

66 posted on 09/14/2005 4:48:04 AM PDT by Shazbot29 (Trolling member of the DU Activist Corps!)
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To: carlr
...........................Libs don`t like it when you peek under the covers.

Bump!

67 posted on 09/14/2005 4:48:37 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: listenhillary
.......I once thought there was too much poverty for private charity to make much of a difference. Now I realize that private charity would do much more -- if government hadn't crowded it out. ...

John Stossel bump!

68 posted on 09/14/2005 4:49:33 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Eric Deggans squalls like a scalded cat, because he's outraged that someone without proper authorization is pointing out the flaws in the culture (NOT the race) that promotes the gangsta lifestyle, and paralyzing dependence on government for basic necessities.

Sorry, but it doesn't wash.
69 posted on 09/14/2005 4:51:14 AM PDT by Darnright ( Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

"Those are the only ones we're seeing on television are the scumbags," said Beck, who now broadcasts from Philadelphia.

** Yes Glen because that's what the media wants. I've read this article can't understand what this writer is complaining about. I've listened to Rush and he's been right on the whole time. NO is just democrat policies exposed for all the world to see. All the race baiting is no conincidence to me. I guess the democrat leaders are afraid some kid from the projects may actually like the world outside the democrat circle of hell called the 'inner city'.


70 posted on 09/14/2005 4:54:40 AM PDT by cyborg (I finally got a job today. Thank you God. Thank you Our Lady of Lourdes' prayer petition.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

This is the same government that invented the lottery to push out the mob and other numbers runners.


71 posted on 09/14/2005 4:55:59 AM PDT by cyborg (I finally got a job today. Thank you God. Thank you Our Lady of Lourdes' prayer petition.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

" a time when unity is so important, the words of those who profit by keeping us apart are the last we should heed."

The liberals started racebaiting this right away. The only reason race has surfaced at all is because of irresponsible comments by Sharpton, Gregory, and other professional race baiters.

Then they have the nerve to talk about conservatives responding to issues THEY brought up?

I have ceased to be astounded at their gall. But I do point out this is from the St Petersberg Times, probably one of the most liberally biased major newspapers in the USA.

They never saw a tax they didn't like or a conservative they did.


72 posted on 09/14/2005 5:13:36 AM PDT by I still care (America is not the problem - it is the solution..)
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To: Shazbot29
You forgot disenfranchised
73 posted on 09/14/2005 5:17:32 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Imagine the headlines nationally if Robertson, who is white, had made that "developing nation" crack instead of a black minister.

As he wrote this, Eric Deggans was personally imagining the headlines that he would like to write nationally in order to trash Pat Robertson, yet he admits that when an opportunistic comment is made by a black person, the press gives him a pass. The one sentence of truth in this article, IMHO.

74 posted on 09/14/2005 5:17:57 AM PDT by Sender (Team Infidel USA)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Notice that the divisiveness wasn't caused by dims pointing blame at W before the storm had even passed, but rather by conservatives for stating the obvious.


75 posted on 09/14/2005 5:20:20 AM PDT by Pietro
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
14. working poor.

I thought that was the illeg.... er, ah, undocumented workers. I'm so confused, I don't know who's who any more.

76 posted on 09/14/2005 5:27:07 AM PDT by meyer (The DNC prefers advancing the party at the expense of human lives.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Mr Deggans, could you please share your thoughts about the words and actions of Jesse Jackson, Mary Landreau, Mayor Nagin, Gov Blanco, Al Sharpton, Fats Domino, Hillary Clinton, and all of the other 'blame-Bush' crowd? Bet that you think these are all wonderful people, huh?


77 posted on 09/14/2005 5:28:43 AM PDT by eeriegeno
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To: Puppage
You forgot disenfranchised

Isn't that what happens when you sell your 7-11?

78 posted on 09/14/2005 5:29:52 AM PDT by Shazbot29 (Trolling member of the DU Activist Corps!)
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To: agrace

Insider ping

"Those are the only ones we're seeing on television are the scumbags," said Beck, who now broadcasts from Philadelphia.

"It's just a small percentage of those who were left in New Orleans, or who decided to stay in New Orleans, and they're getting all the attention."


Even after stating "It's just a small percentage", it's still a bad stereotype??


79 posted on 09/14/2005 5:34:58 AM PDT by lightingguy (Sorry, I got distracted)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Gangsta lifestyle. Welfare mentality. Developing nation. All code words often used as unflattering, veiled references to people of color.

If da kicks fits, be wearin' it, G.

O'Reilly, Beck, and Limbaugh forgot Rule 1 of Modern American Media: Never criticize black people or black culture. To do so automatically means that "you a raciss".

80 posted on 09/14/2005 5:37:37 AM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: cyborg
....I've read this article can't understand what this writer is complaining about. I've listened to Rush and he's been right on the whole time.

This article is a perfect example of not being able to defend the indefensible. Not that that stops them. They just resort to feeble attempts of smearing others who've done nothing but point out the obvious, which they don't even try to defend.

81 posted on 09/14/2005 5:53:56 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Shazbot29
Isn't that what happens when you sell your 7-11?

Perish the thought, sir


82 posted on 09/14/2005 5:56:30 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it.)
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To: B-Chan
O'Reilly, Beck, and Limbaugh forgot Rule 1 of Modern American Media: Never criticize black people or black culture.

I only heard Rush and he criticized the trillions spent on the war against poverty - the failed welfare state. That hits Democrats squarely between the eyes. They've nurtured the welfare mindset, lifestyle and voting block.

83 posted on 09/14/2005 5:59:32 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
14. working poor.

Hey! I used to be one of those! Working for crappy wages, trying to get through school on the GI Bill...

Of course, the "working" part tends to get you out of that category after awhile.

84 posted on 09/14/2005 5:59:41 AM PDT by Kenton ("Life is tough, and it's really tough when you're stupid" - Damon Runyon)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
62,041,268 Bush fans are is a "division" in American . . . it's a majority.
85 posted on 09/14/2005 6:00:34 AM PDT by ChadGore (VISUALIZE 62,041,268 Bush fans.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
a former civil rights worker and peace activist in the 1960s." I have been described this way despite having written a detailed autobiography that exposes these self-glorifying images of the left as so many political lies.
______________________________________________________-

As a former "peace activist" in the sixties, I echo your statements re; the left and their agenda. Nothing has changed in the past 40 years. Leftist back then were using the suffering of others as weapons to destroy the "hated" capitalistic economic system and free market economy. It was always and foremost a socialist agenda to advance a Utopian view of a communist state of America and eventually the world. Today my right wing daughter, attends journalism school and is taught by Bush hating, America hating, communist instructors who advance the same leftist ideologies as perpetrated by this brainwashed newspaper columnist. Its the party line and always will be.
86 posted on 09/14/2005 6:02:05 AM PDT by photodawg
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

And let's be honest, race was the card played libs.


87 posted on 09/14/2005 6:02:07 AM PDT by Lee'sGhost (Crom!)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Look, this is easily solved. Why all the fuss? Just give every black person in NO a H3 Hummer, $1,000,000 cash, an $800 handbag, and the complete Dave Chappell DVD. And while were at it, how about each getting a brand new beach front condo in Miami and a trip to Europe, first-class of course. Personally I'd like to add seasons tickets to Broadway and a cruise around the world.

You say that's not enough to make up for Katrina, slavery and the lack of Colt .45 they've had to endure? Ok, as the ultimate gift, well give then Oregon!

88 posted on 09/14/2005 6:02:21 AM PDT by Doc Savage (...because they stand on a wall, and they say nothing is going to hurt you tonight, not on my watch!)
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To: Darnright

Yes, these commentators are exposing Democrat policy failures.

It's damn hard to miss.

Deggans is upset because it's so politically incorrect to speak of these things!

Is is mind in a vice?


89 posted on 09/14/2005 6:02:59 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
All code words often used as unflattering, veiled references to people of color.

Oh yes let's play the race card. Earth to Eric, it has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with attitude, you know, "content of character."

90 posted on 09/14/2005 6:04:12 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: photodawg
Be sure she reads some of David Horowitz (the quote you pulled). He does a lot of campus outreach Here is his website: Frontpage
91 posted on 09/14/2005 6:05:51 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: dfwgator

And I'd like to know why so many of these people are diabetic.

Why aren't questions like that being asked.


92 posted on 09/14/2005 6:07:09 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: listenhillary
Rebuilding this dung-hill is insane! Doesn't anyone realize that less than one year from now a hurricane of even greater devastation MAY strike the same exact place!? And the same thing will happen again, and again, and again ad infinitum!

Hey, NO morons!! You live below sea level! Your city is run by idiot named Nagin who has the IQ watts of a night-light! Your state is run by a woman I wouldn't hire to sweep out a McDonalds! You were living in filth, sin, poverty, welfare, illegitimate births, illiteracy, crime, murder, rape, crooked police and politicians before the hurricane. Nothing has changed except now you have to shovel a lot of mud!! Ever think about leaving this hell-hole?

93 posted on 09/14/2005 6:12:24 AM PDT by Doc Savage (...because they stand on a wall, and they say nothing is going to hurt you tonight, not on my watch!)
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To: Kenton
I have often heard poverty-pimping LIBERALS say, "All working folks want is a hand-up not a hand-out."

Well, it looks like a lot of people displaced by Katrina aren't looking back. They've been given opportunities and care by strangers saddened by their plight and who hold out hope for their futures. That's something the Democratic Party couldn't do with decades of hand-outs.

They've been given a chance at living.

94 posted on 09/14/2005 6:13:14 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Doc Savage
add seasons tickets to Broadway and a cruise around the world.

I thought cruise ships had already been rejected

95 posted on 09/14/2005 6:18:23 AM PDT by ladyjane
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Blacks have been damaged by LIBERAL feel-good programs and they're beginning to find that out.

_______________________________________________________-


More importantly to liberals, Blacks have been used and controlled by those liberal, feel-good programs. Just like Marx used the working class to advance communist revolution, the American left uses race as a type of "class" to create the envy necessary to overthrow the hated free enterprise and individual liberty. It is the duty of the intellectual elite to manipulate the masses for the greater good, which only they have intellect enough to see. The ends then , justify the means. The means of course being class envy, race baiting, and the use of the mass media to manipulate public opinion.
96 posted on 09/14/2005 6:22:32 AM PDT by photodawg
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To: mlc9852
And they look around and don't see any positive role models. Most don't have fathers and that is a big problem.

They have fathers........... but they didn't bother to stick around and do THE RIGHT THING!

97 posted on 09/14/2005 6:26:09 AM PDT by beyond the sea ("I was just the spark the universe chose ....." --- Cindy Sheehan (barf alert))
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To: photodawg

Well said!!


98 posted on 09/14/2005 6:28:41 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

The Sunday Times - World


September 11, 2005

Focus: White do-gooders did for black America
Black poverty is the result of 30 years of misguided welfare rather than racism, says John McWhorter

As it quickly became clear that there was a certain demographic skew among the people stranded in New Orleans, journalists began intoning that Hurricane Katrina had stripped bare the continuing racial inequity in America.

The extent to which this was hidden is unclear, actually. An awareness that a tragic disproportion of black Americans are poor has been a hallmark of civic awareness among educated Americans for 40 years now.



The problem is less a lack of awareness than a lack of understanding. The publicly sanctioned take is that “white supremacy” is why 80% of New Orleans’s poor people are black. The civics lesson, we are to think, is that the civil rights revolution left a job undone in an America still hostile to black advancement.

In fact, white America does remain morally culpable — but because white leftists in the late 1960s, in the name of enlightenment and benevolence, encouraged the worst in human nature among blacks and even fostered it in legislation. The hordes of poor blacks stuck in the Superdome last week wound up there not because the White Man barred them from doing better, but because certain tragically influential White Men destroyed the fragile but lasting survival skills poor black communities had maintained since the end of slavery.

Few thinking people regret the flower children’s opposition to the Vietnam war, sexism and racial discrimination. But these advances also spelt the demise of old standards of responsibility. Taught that criminality and violence must be judged in proportion to the extent to which poverty and discrimination have coloured one’s existence, the enlightened white person saw black violence as “understandable”.

This meant a largely theatrical black separatist ideology, drastically short on constructive aims, had a public sanction that it had never had before. Hating whitey for its own sake now had an ear among the influential and quickly became the word on the street.

There was a new sense that the disadvantages of being black gave one a pass on civility — or even achievement: this was when black teens started teasing black nerds for “acting white”.

Behaviour that most of a black community would have condemned as counterproductive started to seem normal. Through the late 1960s blacks burnt down their own neighbourhoods as gestures of being “fed up”. But blacks had been “fed up” for centuries: why were these the first riots initiated by blacks rather than white thugs — when the economy was flush and employment opportunities were opening up as never before? Because the culture had changed, in ways that hindered too many blacks from taking advantage of the civil rights revolution. Meanwhile, the most grievous result of the new consensus was black American history’s most under-reported event, the expansion of welfare. Until now, welfare had been a pittance intended for widows, unavailable as long as the father of one’s children was able-bodied and accounted for, and granted for as little time as possible.

In 1966, however, a group of white academics in New York developed a plan to bring as many people onto the welfare rolls as possible. Across the country, poor blacks especially were taught to apply for living on the dole even when they had been working for a living, and by 1970 there were 169% more people on welfare nationwide than in 1960.

This was the first time that whites or blacks had taught black people not to work as a form of civil rights. Politicians and bureaucrats jumped on the new opportunity for political patronage and votes, and welfare quickly became a programme that essentially paid young women to have children.

Only in 1996 was welfare limited to five years and focused on training for work. But by then generations of poor blacks had grown up in neighbourhoods where there was no requirement that fathers support their children. Few grew up watching their primary parent work for a living. Most people paid nominal subsidies as rent and were thus less inclined to treat their living spaces well.

The multigenerational welfare family with grandmothers in their forties became typical: young women had babies in their teens because there was no reason not to with welfare waiting to pick up the tab.

This is the hell that most of the people in the Superdome either lived in or knew at close hand, and none of them could help being stamped by it. Welfare reform was only nine years ago. The women now past the five-year cap are mostly struggling in dead-end jobs. This is better than living on the dole. But these women are weighed down by too many kids created under the old regime to have the time or energy to get the education to get beyond where they are. Poor black neighbourhoods are not what they were at the height of the crack epidemic in the 1980s, but they are still a crying shame.

The poor black America that welfare expansion created in 1966 is still with us. Poor young blacks have never known anything else. People as old as 50 have only vague memories of life before it. For 30 years this was a world within a world, as is made clear from how often the Katrina refugees mention it is the first time they have ever left New Orleans.

What Katrina stripped bare, then, was not white supremacy, but that culture matters — even if what created the culture was misguided white benevolence. Social scientists neglect that before the 1960s poor blacks knew plenty of economic downturns and plenty more racism.


99 posted on 09/14/2005 6:35:28 AM PDT by aspiring.hillbilly (!...The Confederate States of America rises again...!)
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To: beyond the sea

Those who don't stick around aren't really fathers - just sperm donors and there is no shortage of those!


100 posted on 09/14/2005 6:36:58 AM PDT by mlc9852
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