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Gold futures top $472, levels not seen since 1988
(AFX) ^ | Monday, September 19, 2005 3:32:17 PM | (AFX)

Posted on 09/19/2005 9:45:28 AM PDT by AdamSelene235

SAN FRANCISCO (AFX) -- Gold futures climbed to a high of $472.40 an ounce, a level not seen since 1988, according to monthly charts. December gold was last at $471.10, up $7.80, or 1.7%. Prices found support as rallying energy prices sparked worries over inflation

This story was supplied by MarketWatch. For further information see www.marketwatch.com


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: buymygold; chickenlittle; gold; goldbuggery; goldbugs; goldmineshaft; greenspan; inflation
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1 posted on 09/19/2005 9:45:28 AM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: AdamSelene235

The gold bubble is gonna burst! :^)


2 posted on 09/19/2005 9:48:28 AM PDT by TheDon (The Democratic Party is the party of TREASON!)
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To: TheDon

Doesn't rising gold mean someone's afraid of runaway inflation?


3 posted on 09/19/2005 9:49:53 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins

Due to massive currency debasement.


4 posted on 09/19/2005 9:51:04 AM PDT by hubbubhubbub
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To: AdamSelene235

How about a chart showing the inflation adjusted price of gold since 1978, just like the similar charts for oil?


5 posted on 09/19/2005 9:52:27 AM PDT by Uncle Fud (Imagine the President calling fascism a "religion of peace" in 1942)
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To: AdamSelene235

Well yes, but....the dollar is of different value than 1988.


6 posted on 09/19/2005 9:52:49 AM PDT by BurbankKarl
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To: xzins
Doesn't rising gold mean someone's afraid of runaway inflation?

According to FedGov inflation is low if you don't use energy, consume food, pretend chicken is the same as steak and pay yourself income by renting your home to yourself.

7 posted on 09/19/2005 9:52:53 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: AdamSelene235

LOL!

I do recall energy and food being removed from the so-called inflation shopping basket of items.

You'd think that PERMANENT increases in energy would be reflected, wouldn't you?

Anyone think that gasoline is going back down to $1.49 a gallon anytime soon?


8 posted on 09/19/2005 9:54:50 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: hubbubhubbub

Aw....U bin lisning 2 Ron Paul havnt U?


9 posted on 09/19/2005 9:54:58 AM PDT by litehaus
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To: BurbankKarl
Well yes, but....the dollar is of different value than 1988.

No kidding, there are currently 250% more dollars now than in 1988.

10 posted on 09/19/2005 9:54:58 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: TheDon

Take a look at the Gold/Oil Ratio. When I looked a couple of weeks ago it was at an all time low. Either the price of oil is about to break or gold is going much higher.


11 posted on 09/19/2005 9:55:02 AM PDT by TBall
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To: AdamSelene235

When everyone agrees about gold going way up, we will be close to a top.

Consensus it oftentimes incorrect. Careful out there.


12 posted on 09/19/2005 9:55:57 AM PDT by RexBeach ("The rest of the world is three drinks behind." -Humphrey Bogart)
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To: AdamSelene235

I should have bought steaks. I can hardly afford to buy them anymore.


13 posted on 09/19/2005 9:56:12 AM PDT by BurbankKarl
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To: BurbankKarl

True, but if you bought gold in late 2000 you'd be making a killing right now!! Look at that chart.


14 posted on 09/19/2005 9:56:23 AM PDT by RockinRight (What part of ILLEGAL immigration do they not understand?)
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To: Uncle Fud

15 posted on 09/19/2005 9:57:57 AM PDT by oldleft
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To: AdamSelene235

So if I invested in gold in 1988 I would be even right now? Oh, I forgot inflation, so I would still be at a loss.

Glad I invested in growth stocks.

The only people who make money on gold are those who sell it and futures in it.


16 posted on 09/19/2005 9:58:01 AM PDT by KeyWest
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To: KeyWest

You coulda made a killing on gold if you bought in 2000 and sold now.


17 posted on 09/19/2005 9:59:21 AM PDT by RockinRight (What part of ILLEGAL immigration do they not understand?)
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To: RockinRight
True, but if you bought gold in late 2000 you'd be making a killing right now!! Look at that chart.

Actually, the miners are where's its at.

The Dow looks pretty bad when you consider there are 50% more dollars in circulation now than in 2000.

18 posted on 09/19/2005 10:00:39 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: AdamSelene235; xzins
According to FedGov inflation is low if you don't use energy, consume food, pretend chicken is the same as steak and pay yourself income by renting your home to yourself.

The FedGov being wrong wouldn't surprise me but the bond market being wrong would. The 10-year bond is yielding what, 4.2%? Are you saying that the CPI is understated and the bond market is ignorant?

19 posted on 09/19/2005 10:01:14 AM PDT by Mase
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To: xzins
Doesn't rising gold mean someone's afraid of runaway inflation?

A supply sider would say you got the chicken and egg backwards here.

Rising gold is an evidence that inflation already exists.

20 posted on 09/19/2005 10:03:16 AM PDT by SolidSupplySide
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To: Uncle Fud
How about a chart showing the inflation adjusted price of gold since 1978, just like the similar charts for oil?

I don't believe inflation can be accurately measured. That's a fool's errand for a Soviet bureaucrat, not a free American.

February 2000

PAUL: Good morning, Mr. Greenspan. I see you have stayed on the job in spite of my friendly advice last fall. At least you remember the days of sound money, even if it’s only nostalgia, so I’m pleased to have you here.

We have talked a lot about prices today, but for the sound money economist the money supply is the critical issue. If you increase the supply, you create inflation.

If we aim at a stable price level, we’re making a mistake. Technology and other factors can keep prices contained, but if you’re increasing the money supply we still have malinvestment, excessive debt and borrowing.

Someone mentioned that the Fed might be too tight with money. I disagree. The last quarter of 1999 might be historic highs for an increase in Fed credit. Over the last three years the Fed has not once been in the target range for M3. You went over it, in fact, by $690 billion. Everyone likes it now because the bubble is still growing. But what happens when it bursts? Can you reassure me it won’t? Will M3 shrink?

GREENSPAN: Let me assure you we believe in sound money. We believe if you have a debased currency you will have a debased economy. As I’ve said earlier, the difficulty is defining what money truly is. We have been unable to define a monetary aggregate that will give us a reliable forecast for the economy. Until we find a reliable “M” we will go light on the use of monetary aggregates for monetary policy purposes.

PAUL: So it’s hard to manage something you can’t define.

GREENSPAN: It’s impossible to manage something you cannot define.

21 posted on 09/19/2005 10:06:13 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: Mase
Are you saying that the CPI is understated and the bond market is ignorant?

The CPI is a fraud. The bond market is dominated by Communist Central Planners in China, the idiots who destroyed Japan's economy and the Euro-Marxists. Ignorant is an understatment.

22 posted on 09/19/2005 10:09:33 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: AdamSelene235

LOL - I love the ex-food and energy figure because, as we all know, people don't need food or heat to survive this winter.

Another great way to spot inflation is the cereal box "presto-change-o" (as I call it). Same cereal, same price, smaller box...


23 posted on 09/19/2005 10:09:39 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: AdamSelene235
The bond market is dominated by Communist Central Planners in China

Isn't that a good thing? I thought China is the place to be.

*end sarcasm

24 posted on 09/19/2005 10:14:14 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: litehaus

He doesn't even speak on the subject anymore. Maybe he thinks it's no use since everyone else in congress is a Greenspan worshiper.


25 posted on 09/19/2005 10:14:56 AM PDT by hubbubhubbub
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To: xzins
You'd think that PERMANENT increases in energy would be reflected, wouldn't you?

Permanent increases using geometric weighting will *reduce* energy's contribution to the CPI.

26 posted on 09/19/2005 10:16:55 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: KeyWest
The only people who make money on gold are those who sell it and futures in it.

This isn't completely true.
I put 1/2 my IRA in one of the gold miners, a move my broker tried & tried to dissuade me from, & the other 1/2 I followed my brokers advice & was diversified across 7 funds in 3 different fund families. Then the tech stock bubble burst. The fund 1/2 of my IRA tanked. My gold stock went up, a little, but still up, & saved my IRA. My fund 1/2 is still below the initial investment and my gold stock is about to double, not counting all the dividends paid out.

27 posted on 09/19/2005 10:18:13 AM PDT by Lester Moore (islam's allah is Satan and is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.)
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To: KeyWest
Huh? I bought a bunch in Feb at 418. It's at 466. Do the math. The Dow is down for the year, the NASDAQ is up for the year, but no more than gold. Lots of people are making money on gold this year, even ordinary schmucks like me. At $7 a trade on Scottrade the commission costs are the same as QQQQ or growth stocks.
28 posted on 09/19/2005 10:21:15 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: AdamSelene235

That's amazing. Is it actual Fed policy?


29 posted on 09/19/2005 10:23:19 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black

What I meant to say is is that from an actual Congressional Record? Is there a citation for it?


30 posted on 09/19/2005 10:25:18 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: hubbubhubbub

Yep.....Right church, wrong pew?....Not even that is close anymore...Sad....


31 posted on 09/19/2005 10:29:18 AM PDT by litehaus
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To: AdamSelene235

We bought in 1999. It was around $280 then.


32 posted on 09/19/2005 10:32:05 AM PDT by redhead (I didn't come from any monkey, and the earth is NOT my MOTHER!)
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To: KeyWest

Jealous?


33 posted on 09/19/2005 10:32:06 AM PDT by eternity (What's it all about...Alfie?)
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To: AdamSelene235

I've NEVER been able to understand how our monetary systems is based upon gold.

you can't eat it, breath it, drink it, drive your car with it,..... its a freak'n hunk of metal worth nothing more than decorating yourself if you're over 50 and extremely vain, and various electrical conductor work.


never got it.


34 posted on 09/19/2005 10:35:17 AM PDT by Hammerhead
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To: xzins
Doesn't rising gold mean someone's afraid of runaway inflation?

Or instability, or currency problems, or bad management, or war or, or, or....

35 posted on 09/19/2005 10:37:43 AM PDT by GOPJ (When the question is "child rape", the answer is "death penalty".)
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To: Hammerhead

I've NEVER been able to understand how our monetary systems is based upon gold.


IT'S NOT! HASN'T BEEN SINCE '71!!


36 posted on 09/19/2005 10:39:58 AM PDT by hubbubhubbub
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To: Jack Black
A collection of greespan-paul exchanges:

http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/greenspan-gold.html

37 posted on 09/19/2005 10:41:00 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: Hammerhead
I've NEVER been able to understand how our monetary systems is based upon gold. you can't eat it, breath it, drink it, drive your car with it,..... its a freak'n hunk of metal worth nothing more than decorating yourself if you're over 50 and extremely vain, and various electrical conductor work. never got it.

In my view, its primary virtue is the inability of the FedGov to create it out of thin air. Its also compact,chemically stable and subdividable.

38 posted on 09/19/2005 10:43:04 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: hubbubhubbub
I've NEVER been able to understand how our monetary systems is based upon gold.

IT'S NOT! HASN'T BEEN SINCE '71!!

And arguably for Americans citizens (as opposed to foreign governments) not since 1933 when President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a fit of fascist executive orders bans the export of gold, halts the convertibility of dollar bills into gold, orders US citizens to hand in all the gold they possess and establishes a daily price for gold. He then goes on in 1934 to fixe price of gold at $35 per ounce. Considering he had just finished paying people $20 an oz the year before for following his dictatorial orders this was a pretty big time screwing of average Joe. (They liked it an elected him twice more, go figure.)

39 posted on 09/19/2005 10:48:33 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: AdamSelene235
The bond market is dominated by Communist Central Planners in China, the idiots who destroyed Japan's economy and the Euro-Marxists. Ignorant is an understatment.

Just to be clear. You're saying that you know more than all those bond traders and foreign governments who are buying huge quantities of our debt? They're all being fooled into losing huge amounts of money by purchasing our debt?

You must be a very wealthy person knowing so much more than the bond market, central banks and the like.

40 posted on 09/19/2005 10:50:27 AM PDT by Mase
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To: AdamSelene235
Keep investigating. As conservatives presumably we value the traditions and difficult lessons learned from the past. Gold backed currencies tend to work. Fiat currency fails, eventually. Lots and lots of examples going back several hundred years.

If you don't like gold you prefer ... the magic machinations of the mysterious Federal Reserve Board of Governors?

41 posted on 09/19/2005 10:51:24 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Mase

Central bankers are not infalable. Vis: 1929. Lots of smart indivduals out-thought the Fed then, and lots will do it again now. Arguably anyone who bought gold at $400-$440 has out thought the Fed this week.


42 posted on 09/19/2005 10:53:09 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Mase
Just to be clear. You're saying that you know more than all those bond traders and foreign governments who are buying huge quantities of our debt?

I'm sure they are quite aware of the problem. Happily I don't have a billion angry peasants who are waiting to kick my butt in the event an export based economy goes tits up.

They're all being fooled into losing huge amounts of money by purchasing our debt?

They have decided the costs of maintaining the status quo are lower than the transition costs of leaving a dollar based global economy.

43 posted on 09/19/2005 10:57:38 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: AdamSelene235

Does this mean gold reserves are feared declining and/or refineries are max'ed out at peak production?

It's Bush's fault.


44 posted on 09/19/2005 10:59:04 AM PDT by azhenfud (He who always is looking up seldom finds others' lost change.)
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To: Jack Black
And arguably for Americans citizens (as opposed to foreign governments) not since 1933 when President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a fit of fascist executive orders

And arguably not even before the 1933 confiscation as we had a gold exchange standard not a gold standard. It was mostly used for settlements between nations. And if imbalances grew too large, well then, it was poor form to ask for bullion.

45 posted on 09/19/2005 11:02:30 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: AdamSelene235
Interesting. So in 1930 say COULD you go to a Fed Bank and demand gold? (Or silver. The dollars from that era say "payable to the bearer on demand in silver".)

The local Fed Bank has closed their lobby to mere citizens. You can't even go buy their paper from them anymore.

46 posted on 09/19/2005 11:08:46 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black
Central bankers are not infalable.

Never said they were. The bond market however, is smarter than all of them and will accurately determine what is truly going on in the economy. T-bills at 4.2% says inflation is tame. The fact that 30-year mortgages remain at around 6% means that the future expectation of inflation is very low as well.

Arguably anyone who bought gold at $400-$440 has out thought the Fed this week.

Yeah, and the gold bugs who told me to buy the metal in 1980 are still sucking wind. Since then, the value of Gold has declined more than 50% while the S&P has increased more than 900%, not counting dividends. Can't get any of those with the yellow metal.

Like I said, those people who know the real rate of inflation, and can outsmart all the smart people who buy and sell bonds, should all be incredibly wealthy individuals indeed.

47 posted on 09/19/2005 11:09:14 AM PDT by Mase
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To: Jack Black
Interesting. So in 1930 say COULD you go to a Fed Bank and demand gold?

It depends how large your position was. If you were the Bank of the US asking for payment from the Bank of the UK you might find yourself pressured to reconsider.

Try The History of Money and Banking by Rothbard.

The money game is ALWAYS ALWAYS rigged. After all, there is infinite incentive to do so.

48 posted on 09/19/2005 11:13:39 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: Mase
The bond market however, is smarter than all of them and will accurately determine what is truly going on in the economy.

Yeah, the bond market thinks Fannie Mae is safe despite the fact they are incapable of stating their earnings for, oh, the last 5 years.

49 posted on 09/19/2005 11:18:43 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: AdamSelene235
Happily I don't have a billion angry peasants who are waiting to kick my butt in the event an export based economy goes tits up.

Since when has China ever been concerned about angry peasants? I suppose if they really cared about what their people think, they'd do something to correct their looming banking meltdown before it results in huge losses for large numbers of their population.

What's Japan's reason for losing huge sums of wealth buying our debt instruments? How about the Caribbean banking centers?, Korea?, OPEC?, Germany?, Taiwan?

They have decided the costs of maintaining the status quo are lower than the transition costs of leaving a dollar based global economy,

You don't think China has designs on establishing the Yuan as a currency of influence in Asia? Their recent conversion to a "basket" of currencies has put that process in motion. The Islamic Development Bank long ago said they wanted to supplant the dollar for oil exchange as early as 2006.

50 posted on 09/19/2005 11:26:11 AM PDT by Mase
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