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Witness: 'Intelligent Design' doesn't qualify as science [Day 4 of trial in Dover, PA]
Sioux City Journal ^ | 29 September 2005 | Staff

Posted on 09/29/2005 3:36:00 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) -- The concept of "intelligent design" is a form of creationism and is not based on scientific method, a professor testified Wednesday in a trial over whether the idea should be taught in public schools.

Robert T. Pennock, a professor of science and philosophy at Michigan State University, testified on behalf of families who sued the Dover Area School District. He said supporters of intelligent design don't offer evidence to support their idea.

"As scientists go about their business, they follow a method," Pennock said. "Intelligent design wants to reject that and so it doesn't really fall within the purview of science."

Pennock said intelligent design does not belong in a science class, but added that it could possibly be addressed in other types of courses.

In October 2004, the Dover school board voted 6-3 to require teachers to read a brief statement about intelligent design to students before classes on evolution. The statement says Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection is "not a fact" and has inexplicable "gaps," and refers students to an intelligent-design textbook for more information.

Proponents of intelligent design argue that life on Earth was the product of an unidentified intelligent force, and that natural selection cannot fully explain the origin of life or the emergence of highly complex life forms.

Eight families are trying to have intelligent design removed from the curriculum, arguing that it violates the constitutional separation of church and state. They say it promotes the Bible's view of creation.

Meanwhile, a lawyer for two newspaper reporters said Wednesday the presiding judge has agreed to limit questioning of the reporters, averting a legal showdown over having them testify in the case.

Both reporters wrote stories that said board members mentioned creationism as they discussed the intelligent design issue. Board members have denied that.

U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III agreed that the reporters would only have to verify the content of their stories -- and not answer questions about unpublished material, possible bias or the use of any confidential sources.

"They're testifying only as to what they wrote," said Niles Benn, attorney for The York Dispatch and the York Daily Record/Sunday News, the papers that employed the two freelancers.

The reporters were subpoenaed but declined to give depositions Tuesday, citing their First Amendment rights. A lawyer for the school board had said he planned to seek contempt citations against the two.

The judge's order clears the way for the reporters to provide depositions and testify Oct. 6.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; beatingadeadhorse; crevolist; crevorepublic; dover; enoughalready; evolution; itsbeendone; onetrickpony; played; scienceeducation
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To: KMJames

"Actually, I heard this guy speak somewhere (can't quite recall where)...anyway he gave an in-depth presentation on his analysis of the dental remains and skulls of human fossils. "

OK. Give me a list of his published papers on anthropological dentistry. It is a field of study. I'd be happy to go examine them.

A speech that happened somewhere, sometime (sorry you can't recall) is not evidence of his expertise, quite frankly. And you wouldn't know if he was an expert or not, since you can't even remember where or when you heard him speak.

Scientists doing research like this publish their research. So, let's see it.


241 posted on 09/29/2005 1:16:57 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Dimensio; KMJames
Theory or no, it certainly is an EXPLANATION for a current area of ignorance.

So is claiming that my cat created the universe and all in it Last Thursday. That doesn't mean that it should be presented as a viable scientific alternative.

Exactly. Not all explanations are equally valid. That's why we deal in theories.

Words mean things. ID isn't a "theory" in the scientific meaning of the word. There are no alternative notions that get anywhere close to fufilling the basic requirements for a scientific theory, which is why evolution is the only one worth talking about in science classes.

242 posted on 09/29/2005 1:19:20 PM PDT by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: MineralMan
Oh, by the way, your slip is showing....

Don't get freudian on us now!

243 posted on 09/29/2005 1:19:27 PM PDT by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: KMJames

"Theory or no, it certainly is an EXPLANATION for a current area of ignorance."

OK. God did it. That's their explanation. Pretty hard to test that theory, isn't it?

And which deity do they think was the one? There are so many that it's hard to sort out. Some of them gave birth to the universe. Some spoke it into existence.

What experiments will we use to figure out which deity or "intelligent entity" did all of this?


244 posted on 09/29/2005 1:19:32 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: highball
"Thought conditioning?" What do you mean?

I mean, when you put on your "evolution sunglasses" and you look at data you see evolution in the data.

Why not look at the data in the pure, true light?

245 posted on 09/29/2005 1:19:52 PM PDT by KMJames
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To: Vive ut Vivas
(to Just mythoughts) I can just imagine the philosophy you'd extrapolate from quantum mechanics.

Please don't. Please.

246 posted on 09/29/2005 1:20:25 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: KMJames

OK, there, I did some research on Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, and here's a list of his publications. Oddly, they don't appear to be scientific publications, except perhaps the Journal of the New Jersey Dental Society. I'll have to see what that article was about:




Publications

Dr. Cuozzo's publishing efforts have included three articles in the Journal of the New Jersey Dental Society and one article and one editorial review of his work in Creation magazine. He has also published in the Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal and the Creation Research Society Quarterly. Some of his work was included in The Creation series (editor: Josh McDowell; Here's Life Publishers Inc.), and the movie series: Origins: How The World Came To Be, The Illustrated Origins Answerbook (edited by Paul Taylor, 4th ed.; Eden Productions). In 1996 he made a series of six TV programs for Cornerstone TV in Wall, PA. that have been aired over a satellite network. Dr. Cuozzo's first book, Buried Alive, was released in 1998 by Master Books of Green Forest, Arkansas. He is one of fifty contributors in a book released in 1999, In Six Days: Why 50 Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation, edited by Josh Ashton and published by New Holland Publishers, Australia. He is one of six authors of the book, When Christians Roamed The Earth, published by Master Books.


247 posted on 09/29/2005 1:23:22 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: KMJames

I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.

You have it backwards. Evolution is the only theory that matches the data. Those who would like to pretend that evolution doesn't exist are the ones who refuse to acknowledge data.

There is plenty of evidence to support the Theory of Evolution. The more evidence that we find, the stronger the theory is. Where's the evidence for creationism, other than you want it to be so?


248 posted on 09/29/2005 1:24:33 PM PDT by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: MineralMan
A speech that happened somewhere, sometime (sorry you can't recall) is not evidence of his expertise, quite frankly. And you wouldn't know if he was an expert or not, since you can't even remember where or when you heard him speak.

Hold on Nellie, I'm just trying to humanize this here discussion (I could have easily left out the part of my absent-mindedness). Anyway, I think he published something, a book perhaps - heck, I'm not his agent. I just amused myself by realizing that I had indeed heard of the one guy that a previous poster had singled out as a persona-non-scientista.

249 posted on 09/29/2005 1:26:25 PM PDT by KMJames
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To: MineralMan
When Christians Roamed The Earth, published by Master Books.

... soon to be a major motion picture, starring Raquel Welch.

250 posted on 09/29/2005 1:26:29 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Antonello
It would clear it up to my satisfaction if the 2nd paragraph was omitted. Well, you could keep the last sentence.

Ha ha. O well, I guess this is only an issue for gubmint schools, otherwise, would you be in favor of local school boards deciding what is taught without federal interference?

251 posted on 09/29/2005 1:30:22 PM PDT by KMJames
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To: Nathan Zachary
"half are kooks who haven't a doctorate. which is required on my list."

If I recall, Francis Crick did not have a PhD when he contributed to the small paper he and some colleagues worked on back in the 50s.
252 posted on 09/29/2005 1:34:07 PM PDT by stormer (Get your bachelors, masters, or doctorate now at home in your spare time!)
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To: MineralMan
OK, there, I did some research on Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, and here's a list of his publications.

Well, he's busier than I'd ever have known. Thanks. His presentation was interesting to me, though, as I said earlier "I am not a scientist" which inadvertently dismisses everything I heard that fine day (or was it night?)

253 posted on 09/29/2005 1:39:58 PM PDT by KMJames
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To: Nathan Zachary; RadioAstronomer
Nathan, Nathan, Nathan... Hasn't anybody ever told you not to steal somebody else's work? If you are going to cut and paste, give the author credit for the work. Otherwise, you are nothing more than a sneak thief. (where nathan stole it from)
254 posted on 09/29/2005 1:41:20 PM PDT by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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To: Dimensio
Let me see if I got this:

We don't know where life came from, we don't know where matter came from, we don't know where nothing came from - BUT - we sure know that it wasn't created.

Do I got it?

255 posted on 09/29/2005 1:45:36 PM PDT by KMJames
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To: RadioAstronomer

I should have read all of the posts before commenting on Mr. Zachary's thievery.


256 posted on 09/29/2005 1:46:11 PM PDT by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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To: Gumlegs

ROTFLMAO!


257 posted on 09/29/2005 1:46:12 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: wyattearp

hehehe! GMTA. :-)


258 posted on 09/29/2005 1:46:43 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: KMJames

Digging further, there is some interesting evidence regarding his work on the dentition of Neanderthal man. It appears that he claimed to have discovered some new bones of a Neanderthal skeleton that had been studied. Apparently, he based part of his book on these new "bones." Sadly, when he submitted them to a museum, they were found to be pieces of rock, not bones, and not fossils. He's still arguing that he was right, but the analysys from the museum appears to be pretty conclusive.

A search on his name will bring up all this information.

If he lied about the bones, what else did he lie about? It's not nice to lie, even if it's in the name of a deity. Not nice at all.

I will leave the decision on who's telling the truth to the examination of anyone interested enough to do the search. Here's the site where the investigator demonstrates that the bones are not bones and not fossils:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/stringercuozzo.html

Here's Cuozzo's site, where he tries to weasel out of the controversy:

http://www.jackcuozzo.com/

Scroll down.


259 posted on 09/29/2005 1:49:10 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: GretchenM
The trouble with the Darwin's theory of evolution is there is a lot of actual physical evidence to refute it.

Sure there is. The unicorn genome, dragon fossils, and the radioactive decay patterns of dilthium crystals, to name but three examples.

260 posted on 09/29/2005 1:49:45 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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