Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

Times (UK) ^ | October 05, 2005 | Ruth Gledhill

[Luddite Patent Counsel]

Actually, in the '50s and 60's, American Roman Catholics weren't big on the Bible.

Iteresting. I was almost sure that the Gospel and Epistle in every Mass came from the Bible, not to mention the many, many excerpts from Psalms, etc. in the body of the Mass itself. I guess that's not "big on the Bible".

[DLfromthedesert]

I went to Catholic School in the 50's in Brooklyn, NY. I remember studying the catechism, but Bible stories were read to us from the Children's Bible.

The nuns were brutal in their long black habits in the heat and humidity.

[sinkspur]

Could you rephrase your post #124. I simply don't understand it.

[sinkspur]

Well, parables are stories meant to teach a lesson and are not necessarily understood to be accounts of actual events - but do you think the Gospel writers were inspired, and if so... why would they change what Jesus said?

To conform to the message they were trying to leave with their audience.

Matthew, for instance, likely embellished the story of the vineyard to conform more to Isaiah's vineyard story, to show that Christ's words were fulfillments of the Old Testament to Matthew's audience: the Jews.

[safisoft]

Speaking of that. Ask a Jew how they count "days" in the Bible. Many people don't understand that the three days Jesus spent in the tomb was counted via the Jewish calendar. I believe "days" start either at sunset or midnight in that regard. Perhaps someone can answer that. That is why "three days" is accurate when it comes to Friday evening to Sunday morning of ressurection day...actually Thursday evening to Friday evening; Fri to Sat; Sat to Sun.

You are correct in saying that Biblical reckoning of days was from sunset to sunset. However, that does not explain the "three days" - because Yeshua [Jesus] said,

For just as Yonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea-monster,so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the depths of the earth.

The Bible never says that Yeshua was crucified on Friday. That is derived from a people who systematically removed themselves from Jewish culture and the Hebrew language. The history of "Easter" is one that came to a head in the middle of the Second Century. The controversy was partly over this (and partly over Passover). Rome won the argument mostly, and then with the Nicean Council cemented it in a mandate which outlawed all 'Christians' from celebrating Passover (look it up, it is called the Quartodecimanism Controversy).

Here is the issue. In John 19:31 it says,

Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Since the 'Christians' of the Second Century had systematically distanced themselves from all things Jewish, they were ignorant of what the phrase "the Sabbath was a high day" meant. By the time of the days of Jerome (Fifth Century, living in Israel) the idea of a Friday crucifixion was so institutionalized that even he did not oppose it.

Ask anyone in Israel what a Shabbat [Sabbath] is and they will ask you, "weekly, or holy day?" In Leviticus 23 you can read that the first day of Pesach [Passover] is a holy day, a 'Shabbat' [Sabbath]. Not SATURDAY. It is a lunar event. The day in Scripture for the crucifixion was NOT Friday - it was the 14th day of Nisan. The next day was the 15th of Nisan - the first day of the week of Unleavened Bread (aka Passover). As for the Ressurection, it did NOT take place necessarily on what we call Sunday.

Anytime after sunset on the weekly Sabbath constitutes the "morning of the first day". Actually the Greek phrase "first day of the week" does not exist as your English Bible leads you to believe. There is no such thing. The writers always uses sabbaton [Greek transliteration of Shabbat].

So, "three days and three nights" (not three days) would make the crucifixion on Wednesday or Thursday. But I understand that messes up the whole Easter thing... so I obey the Master and celebrate Passover as He did.

[studly hungwell]

Ok, for those of you who believe every word in the bible is literally true, please answer one simple question:

When did Christ die?

In the 4 canonical gospels, there are THREE different answers to this question. In one gospel, he is on the cross Friday morning, from 9 to 12. In another, the time is Friday afternoon, 12 to 3. In John, he is crucified on Saturday.

Do I believe in the bible and its message? Absolutely! Do I believe every word is literally true? Of course not.

[Milly]

We never had the problems that they seem to have had here.
My husband went to Catholic schools in NYC. then Fordham University, he never complained either though he said the Brothers were difficult ( Marists) I think it might have been him not the brothers? Like You they had Bible story's out of the kids Bible, his Uncle was a priest in Brooklyn I think St Jerome's?

[rdcorso]

At least people are allowed to debate the accuracy of the Bible without being threatened with death.If we were talking about the Koran on this thread there would be fatwas and murderous threats flying all over the place.

[pageonetoo]

In a theological sense, Christians are still bound by Mosaic Law - - Yeshua followed Mosaic Law. Christianity is Messianic Judaism.

No, maam. You are wrong again.

Paul makes it very clear in his letter to the Romans 3:19ff-

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

[Dazedcat]

Great, so let me understand you. A few bishops make a statement such as this, and ALL Catholics are branded by you as heritics? ALL Catholics feel the way they do? ALL Catholics are led by several obscure bishops?

Sorry champ, I'm calling you out for what you are....you've met the criteria very well, and live for posts such as this................

Bigot.

[Dumb_Ox]

Sensationalistic title, which will no doubt be repeated by fundies and atheists. Not that the Catholic hierarchy in the UK is in great shape, but this isn't anything new.

Everytime I read a Times article, the tiny terminally ill Anglophile inside me dies a little more.

[DLfromthedesert]

Why did you address that to me? I certainly don't believe the Bible was meant to be taken literally.

[trebb]

We are long past the days of believing that the world was created in six 24-hour days.

Hmmm - if you read Genesis more carefully, it says God created the heavens and the earth and it was a formless void (or some such). After that, He separated day from night and that caused the first day. The rest was done during the next six days.

So, He didn't create the earth in six 24 hour days, he created it outside of time and did the rest during the days.

Why so hard to believe that God could do all this in any amount of time when He speaks things into existence? He's GOD for crying out loud; He doesn't have to resort to manual labor and work up a sweat. As in everything, He did it in His time and it's up to us to decide if we want to believe or not.

If you can't believe all the Bible, how can you believe in the New Testament that tells us that the sin penalty of death has been payed in full, if only we believe and ask Him for this tremendous gift?

[Jim Noble]

The Catholic Church has never taught Biblical inerrancy, at least not in a literal sense.

It is unclear to what extent they accept that the Bible is authoritative (as opposed to literally true), but in general I think they do.

[ClaireSolt]

What is it that you do not understand?

[DLfromthedesert]

I went to St. Athanasius. The nuns WERE mean (most of them) but we learned a lot from them.

[LibFreeOrDie]

RC's back then didn't read the Bible directly. It was excerpted, as you pointed out, and subsumed in the Mass.

We didn't memorize Bible passages. We had to memorize the Baltimore Catechism. We didn't have Bibles in our homes. We didn't use them in Religion class at all, until Vatican II.

[Just mythoughts]

"In fact, every book of the Bible was written by Jews, regardless of who compiled them together or translated them."

WEll not quite accurate. Moses was from the tribe of Levi and penned the first five books and I have read that some attribute Job to him. Levi is the tribe where the priest came from and they were given no inheritance.

King David and Solomon were from the tribe of Judah, the King line.

Paul of the New Testament was from the tribe of Benjamin.

I suppose I could go through each author a give their tribe, however King Neb of Babylon penned at least a chapter or part of one in Daniel and he was not from the 12 tribes.

"In a theological sense, Christians are still bound by Mosaic Law - - Yeshua followed Mosaic Law. Christianity is Messianic Judaism."

Yes Christians are bound by the Mosaic Law, what changed after Christ was the "blood" sacrifices and Christ became the Sabbath.

"Both Yahweh and Yeshua are Zionists without exception or compromise. The enemies of Israel are nations of the Enemy.

I would defy anyone to say otherwise... "


Well the Heavenly Father divorced Israel the Ten Tribe and sent them into captivity to the Assyrian King and Judah the Southern Kingdom was sent into captivity to King Neb. of Babylon.

These two house will not be rejoined until the real Christ returns, further more there is not enough real estate for all of the House of Jacob to fit in that tiny piece of real estate.

"Of course while you argue about it, you have taken your eye off of the real enemy: The reason the Islamic pagan thugs and neo-pagan new age left hates Western Civilization is that it was founded on Mosaic Law. "

Christ said these things need be, and Paul said that the things written of them was for our admonition to warn us what the end of the age would be like. The script has already been written.

Christ said take heed not man deceive you.

Comments anyone?

[safisoft]

The Bible in its current form of Old and New Testament is the Bible of which I speak. It's just silly to assume that the Church does not ascribe full authorship of the OT to the great and holy Jews from whom those words flowed by the inspiration of God.

Then why keep making assinine statements about the Catholic Church giving us the Bible? Just so you know, the Master and Paul said that it was to the JEWS the oracles of G-d were entrusted. The last I looked, the pope ain't no Jew.

It is really insulting for you to infer any anti-semitism on my part. That is the last defense of those who have no argument.

Actually, I have about 1,900 years of history on my side on this friend. You erase that, then come back and talk about why the Roman Catholic Church refuses to acknowledge that the Bible WAS NOT 'canonized' by them - and every time you folks are challenged on that, you come back with, "Oh, you mean the 'OLD TESTAMENT' too? - I didn't mean that!"

All but possibly 2 books (Luke and Acts) of the Catholic Bible was written by Jews. But if you want to expose the sad history of this, I have REEMS of cut-n-pastes for you of what nice Catholics have said and done to Jews.

[sinkspur]

I find that it is useless to argue with a biblical literalist. We can just agree to disagree.