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Evolution and intelligent design Life is a cup of tea
Economist ^ | 10/6/05 | Economist

Posted on 10/07/2005 4:59:16 AM PDT by shuckmaster

How should evolution be taught in schools? This being America, judges will decide

HALF of all Americans either don't know or don't believe that living creatures evolved. And now a Pennsylvania school board is trying to keep its pupils ignorant. It is the kind of story about America that makes secular Europeans chortle smugly before turning to the horoscope page. Yet it is more complex than it appears.

In Harrisburg a trial began last week that many are comparing to the Scopes “monkey” trial of 1925, when a Tennessee teacher was prosecuted for teaching Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. Now the gag is on the other mouth. In 1987 the Supreme Court ruled that teaching creationism in public-school science classes was an unconstitutional blurring of church and state. But those who think Darwinism unGodly have fought back.

Last year, the school board in Dover, a small rural school district near Harrisburg, mandated a brief disclaimer before pupils are taught about evolution. They are to be told that “The theory [of evolution] is not a fact. Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no evidence.” And that if they wish to investigate the alternative theory of “intelligent design”, they should consult a book called “Of Pandas and People” in the school library.

Eleven parents, backed by the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State, two lobby groups, are suing to have the disclaimer dropped. Intelligent design, they say, is merely a clever repackaging of creationism, and as such belongs in a sermon, not a science class.

The school board's defence is that intelligent design is science, not religion. It is a new theory, which holds that present-day organisms are too complex to have evolved by the accumulation of random mutations, and must have been shaped by some intelligent entity. Unlike old-style creationism, it does not explicitly mention God. It also accepts that the earth is billions of years old and uses more sophisticated arguments to poke holes in Darwinism.

Almost all biologists, however, think it is bunk. Kenneth Miller, the author of a popular biology textbook and the plaintiffs' first witness, said that, to his knowledge, every major American scientific organisation with a view on the subject supported the theory of evolution and dismissed the notion of intelligent design. As for “Of Pandas and People”, he pronounced that the book was “inaccurate and downright false in every section”.

The plaintiffs have carefully called expert witnesses who believe not only in the separation of church and state but also in God. Mr Miller is a practising Roman Catholic. So is John Haught, a theology professor who testified on September 30th that life is like a cup of tea.

To illustrate the difference between scientific and religious “levels of understanding”, Mr Haught asked a simple question. What causes a kettle to boil? One could answer, he said, that it is the rapid vibration of water molecules. Or that it is because one has asked one's spouse to switch on the stove. Or that it is “because I want a cup of tea.” None of these explanations conflicts with the others. In the same way, belief in evolution is compatible with religious faith: an omnipotent God could have created a universe in which life subsequently evolved.

It makes no sense, argued the professor, to confuse the study of molecular movements by bringing in the “I want tea” explanation. That, he argued, is what the proponents of intelligent design are trying to do when they seek to air their theory—which he called “appalling theology”—in science classes.

Darwinism has enemies mostly because it is not compatible with a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis. Intelligent designers deny that this is why they attack it, but this week the court was told by one critic that the authors of “Of Pandas and People” had culled explicitly creationist language from early drafts after the Supreme Court barred creationism from science classes.

In the Dover case, intelligent design appears to have found unusually clueless champions. If the plaintiffs' testimony is accurate, members of the school board made no effort until recently to hide their religious agenda. For years, they expressed pious horror at the idea of apes evolving into men and tried to make science teachers teach old-fashioned creationism. (The board members in question deny, or claim not to remember, having made remarks along these lines at public meetings.)

Intelligent design's more sophisticated proponents, such as the Discovery Institute in Seattle, are too polite to say they hate to see their ideas championed by such clods. They should not be surprised, however. America's schools are far more democratic than those in most other countries. School districts are tiny—there are 501 in Pennsylvania alone—and school boards are directly elected. In a country where 65% of people think that creationism and evolution should be taught side by side, some boards inevitably agree, and seize upon intelligent design as the closest approximation they think they can get away with. But they may not be able to get away with it for long. If the case is appealed all the way to the Supreme Court, intelligent design could be labelled religious and barred from biology classes nationwide.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creoslavery; crevolist; evolution
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1 posted on 10/07/2005 4:59:22 AM PDT by shuckmaster
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To: PatrickHenry; <1/1,000,000th%; balrog666; BMCDA; Condorman; Dimensio; Doctor Stochastic; ...

ping


2 posted on 10/07/2005 5:00:03 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: shuckmaster
It is the kind of story about America that makes secular Europeans chortle smugly before turning to the horoscope page.

And I should give a flyin' flip about what Europeans think of us because...?


If you want a Google GMail account, FReepmail me.
They're going fast!

3 posted on 10/07/2005 5:04:21 AM PDT by rdb3 (What's the use when the god of confusion keeps on telling the same lie?)
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To: shuckmaster
We did not evlove! We were Created! By the Creators, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost!

First, let's look at what God said concerning just how the earth was created, how, by Whom, and how long it took.

Genesis Chapter One

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth. 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:1-31 ACP/KJV

Day one: God made the earth, no form, but earth and then He created light. Verses 1-5

Day two: God made a separation, a space, between the waters that were on the earth and the waters above the earth. Verses 6,7&8.

Day three: God spoke and the dry ground appeared and the waters were gathered into separate places separated by the dry ground, and then God created the grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind.

Day four: God made the sun, the moon, and all the stars and heavenly bodies.

Day five: God created great whales, and every living creature that is in the air and in the waters. He then blessed them and said, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Day six: God created first the animals that would populate the dry ground and then last of all after everything was done, God created Man.

Now read this carefully, read it just as God said it:

26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Genesis 1:26-31 ACP/KJV)

Before we go any further, I want you to see the verses that confirm that God created all things in six normal, everyday, 24 hour days, not days comprised of millions and millions of years. "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:19 ACP/KJV

Now, before we go any further I want to show you something: something from God's Holy Word. "...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." That is part of a description of all those who will be tossed into the lake fo fire for all eternity in Revelation 21:8. Now ask yourself this, who do you think is more likely to be called a liar by God and tossed into that eternal suffering in the lake of fire?

A. Your wife for lying about her age?

B. Your 10 year old son for lying about stealing a few cookies out of the cookie jar?

C. Your teen age daughter for lying to you about sneaking out of her room in the dead of night, getting pregnant, and having an abortion?

D. Those religious leaders, those men and women with fancy degrees and words who call God Himself a liar. Telling us that God doesn't know what He is talking about when He tells us that He made the earth and all things in and on it, and in the heavens above in six literal 24 hour days?

I know "C" looks tempting, but the answer is D!

I don't care that many of these men and women who call God a liar, who make themselves to be smarter than God, have done great and wonderful deeds and works. I don't care that they have healed the sick, and collected clothing for the victims of storms. If they call God a liar by saying that we evolved instead of that God made us, then they are calling God a liar and He addresses them in Matthew seven: Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?" And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.

4 posted on 10/07/2005 5:19:48 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: newsgatherer

hoooo boy, when you try to rank sins you get in deep doodoo.


5 posted on 10/07/2005 5:22:26 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: rdb3

. . . must . . . appease . . . Euro-weenies . . .


6 posted on 10/07/2005 5:22:56 AM PDT by DesertSapper (I Love God, Family, Country! (and dead terrorists))
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To: shuckmaster

The tea argument is charming but a misrepresentation of what ID thinks. It thinks that, to use the tea analogy, that within that kettle can be found evidence that it had been placed upon a stove, rather than just mindlessly bumbling into its current situation.


7 posted on 10/07/2005 5:25:41 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: The Red Zone
hoooo boy, when you try to rank sins you get in deep doodoo.

How do you figure that? Have you not read Matthew seven 1-20?

8 posted on 10/07/2005 5:33:53 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: newsgatherer

What is so appalling about evolution? Billions of years of evolution are meaningless to God who exists outside of time. Nowhere does the theory of evolution in and of itself, espouse atheism.


9 posted on 10/07/2005 5:50:43 AM PDT by opticks
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To: shuckmaster
HALF of all Americans either don't know or don't believe that living creatures evolved. And now a Pennsylvania school board is trying to keep its pupils ignorant. It is the kind of story about America that makes secular Europeans chortle smugly before turning to the horoscope page. Yet it is more complex than it appears.

Allowing no questioning of this sacred theory is not keeping people ignorant? Who gives a flying flip what Eurropeans think? I sure don't. Europe is a land of feminized androgenous automatons - the whole continent smells like estrogen.

Eleven parents, backed by the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State, two lobby groups, are suing to have the disclaimer dropped. Intelligent design, they say, is merely a clever repackaging of creationism, and as such belongs in a sermon, not a science class.

ACLU - the anti-American communist lawyer group that defends pedophiles and uses a legal form of extortion to get its way. Their involvement alone is enough reason to fight for the disclaimer!

Mr Miller is a practising Roman Catholic.

haha. So? Barry Lynn of Americans United is a reverend (cough, choke), and he never misses an opportunity to work against the acknowledgement of God in the public square.

The government has no business telling communities what to teach in their schools. I realize that evolution and communism fit together like a hand in a glove, but this is America, not the Soviet Union.

10 posted on 10/07/2005 5:55:43 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: opticks
What is so appalling about evolution? Billions of years of evolution are meaningless to God who exists outside of time. Nowhere does the theory of evolution in and of itself, espouse atheism.

Yeah right - that's why all of the evo-bots work tirelessly to promote abiogenesis and any other theory that excludes God in this forum.

11 posted on 10/07/2005 5:56:55 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: newsgatherer

There is only one unforgivable sin, how do you account for that?


12 posted on 10/07/2005 5:57:49 AM PDT by drlevy88
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To: SmartCitizen
The government has no business telling communities what to teach in their schools.

Exellent point. Why don't we let Scientists decide what is taught in Science class?

13 posted on 10/07/2005 6:06:12 AM PDT by Mr. Quarterpanel (I am not an actor, but I play one on TV)
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To: Mr. Quarterpanel
Exellent point. Why don't we let Scientists decide what is taught in Science class?

Communities decide, not scientists. Education is the domain of parents and local communities, not scientists. You want to exchange one form of tyranny for another. I remember "scientists" teaching german children that jews were subhuman using the shape of their skulls. Scientists are just as prone to idiocy as any other profession.

14 posted on 10/07/2005 6:10:28 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: shuckmaster
".......... Intelligent design's more sophisticated proponents, such as the Discovery Institute in Seattle........"

Sophisticated?

Put some lipstick on that pig.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lololololololololololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

15 posted on 10/07/2005 6:12:19 AM PDT by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!)
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To: one of His mysterious ways

Ping...


16 posted on 10/07/2005 6:25:18 AM PDT by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: shuckmaster
Thanks, but I'm thinking maybe we should give this stuff a day off. Or let's wait until some hot news about the trial pops up. Anyway, I've got the ping machine unplugged for the moment.
17 posted on 10/07/2005 6:27:53 AM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, half-wit, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: SmartCitizen
I remember "scientists" teaching german children that jews were subhuman using the shape of their skulls. Scientists are just as prone to idiocy as any other profession.

I have been waiting for someone to bring that up. Every so often, some fringe scientist comes up with some theory that gets plowed into the mainstream because it helps move a political agenda along (Usually a radical agenda). These ideas eventually get their just deserts, and ID will as well. Your comparison of that sad time in history is a poor example of science, at best. You could use numerology to prove anything you want. Why not teach that?

ID is the Phrenology of the 21st century.

Communities are responsible for preparing their students for the future by setting standards. They usually rely on experts to set these standards. Children who are not prepared cannot compete with those that are.

It is as simple as that.

18 posted on 10/07/2005 6:28:22 AM PDT by Mr. Quarterpanel (I am not an actor, but I play one on TV)
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To: shuckmaster

How about we teach neither intelligent design nor evolution in public schools? I am a Christian but I don't want a teacher telling my kids that the earth was created by an intelligent being. That could mean anything! Evolutionists also have to have faith to believe in evolution. You can't convince me otherwise. I remember my college biology classes and the big gaps in the evolution charts. So, why don't we save these for college level learning?

Why I homeschool Reason #341....


19 posted on 10/07/2005 6:35:56 AM PDT by bizeemommie
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To: Mr. Quarterpanel
ID is the Phrenology of the 21st century.

That's a laugh and it smacks of your a priori bias against anything that challenges the sacred status of neodarwinsim. The only way neodarwinists can defeat ID (which is growing rapidly) is by suppression and censorship - which are the tactics they presently use to shut people up in the universities and public schools.

20 posted on 10/07/2005 6:38:54 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: PatrickHenry

Good idea! The way this trial is going, there will be plenty of good news soon enough!


21 posted on 10/07/2005 6:39:11 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: bizeemommie
" I remember my college biology classes and the big gaps in the evolution charts. "

I'll bet you don't mind the big gaps in your doc's bag of tricks when you go to him for advice though.

22 posted on 10/07/2005 6:39:38 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: opticks
Nowhere does the theory of evolution in and of itself, espouse atheism.

It most certainly does!

Evolution says millions and millions of years. God says six normal 24 hour days.

Evolution claims to base it's years upon a fossil record of dead things in mud that accumulated over millions and millions of years. God says that there was no death of anything till 6,417 years ago.

Evolution says the grand canyon came about over millions and millions of years, God' word teaches that it came about via a world wide flood. and the examples go on and one and on.

Evolution denies God, denies God's word, and denies God's rules. Evolution claims that rights, laws, everything comes from man. The Bible teaches that these things come form God and that we will one day answer to Him regardless of whether one believes in Him or not. Hebrews 9:27.

23 posted on 10/07/2005 6:40:52 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: Mr. Quarterpanel
Communities are responsible for preparing their students for the future by setting standards. They usually rely on experts to set these standards. Children who are not prepared cannot compete with those that are.

Exactly. So, why is it then that the ACLU and Eugenie Scott and Barry Lynn and all of the other outsiders are trying to tell a PA community what they can teach in their schools? The school board is elected BY THE PEOPLE. If the people want to teach that evolution is not a FACT (which it isn't by the way), then butt out.

24 posted on 10/07/2005 6:41:22 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: bizeemommie
I remember my college biology classes and the big gaps in the evolution charts.

We teach science in school because it's science's task to fill in those gaps.

25 posted on 10/07/2005 6:42:16 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: drlevy88
And what would that be? Hint look at: Mark 3:28-29.

And woudl that not be: "D. Those religious leaders, those men and women with fancy degrees and words who call God Himself a liar. Telling us that God doesn't know what He is talking about when He tells us that He made the earth and all things in and on it, and in the heavens above in six literal 24 hour days?" Those who call God a liar, those who deny that He is God, that He is perfect, that He is fully capable of saying what He means and meaning what He says in His book, the Holy Bible?

26 posted on 10/07/2005 6:44:26 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: shuckmaster
We teach science in school because it's science's task to fill in those gaps.

Yes, and we all know that the notion of "science" is defined and controlled by neodarwinists who become apoplectic at the slightest challenge to their hegemony. That's not science - that's might makes right.

27 posted on 10/07/2005 6:46:24 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: newsgatherer
Nowhere does the theory of evolution in and of itself, espouse atheism.

It most certainly does!

You are dishonestly equating atheism with rejection of your particular brand of Christianity. Perhaps you should ponder the fate that you believe God has reserved for liars.

28 posted on 10/07/2005 6:47:24 AM PDT by Thatcherite (More abrasive than SeaLion or ModernMan)
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To: SmartCitizen
"Education is the domain of parents and local communities, not scientists.

Education should be to teach the truth. That means by folks that know the subject.

" You want to exchange one form of tyranny for another. I remember "scientists" teaching german children that jews were subhuman using the shape of their skulls. "

You might remember scientists taught this, but that's only because you were either taught lies, or were dreaming. Parents and the local German community leaders taught this.

29 posted on 10/07/2005 6:47:47 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: Thatcherite
"Nowhere does the theory of evolution in and of itself, espouse atheism."

LOL! Their bag of tricks contains few words. They simply rotate and repeat the same claims over and over again as if doing that would render the lie true.

30 posted on 10/07/2005 6:51:02 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: Thatcherite
Perhaps you should ponder the fate that you believe God has reserved for liars.

If you are accusing me of ying, than you need to show me where. If you're accusatioon is that I am lying regarding God's word than you need to use Scripture to correct me. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Otherwise I do believe you owe me an apology.

31 posted on 10/07/2005 6:51:10 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: Thatcherite
You are dishonestly equating atheism with rejection of your particular brand of Christianity. Perhaps you should ponder the fate that you believe God has reserved for liars.

Stalin and Hitler certainly believed it espoused atheism. And the most famous neodarwinists also believe it - Gould, Sagan, Crick, all of the Huxleys, Dawkins (blind watchmaker) and many many others. Since the most renowned gatekeepers of evolution espouse a godless universe and godless origins, it cannot be denied that evolutionary theory breeds such a connection.

32 posted on 10/07/2005 6:54:29 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: spunkets
Education should be to teach the truth. That means by folks that know the subject.

Yes, neodarwinists will teach them their idea of truth whether they want it or not! What if a community doesn't want your brand of truth taught in their school? hmmm? The day is coming when communities will revolt and all of the king's horses and all of the king's ACLU lawyers, will not be able to stop it.

33 posted on 10/07/2005 6:57:07 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: spunkets
You might remember scientists taught this, but that's only because you were either taught lies, or were dreaming. Parents and the local German community leaders taught this.

The UNIVERSITIES taught this. Who teaches at the university level? Hitler has "SCIENTISTS" who supported this crap - there is no denying it.

34 posted on 10/07/2005 6:59:35 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: SmartCitizen
...outsiders are trying to tell a PA community what they can teach in their schools? The school board is elected BY THE PEOPLE.

They are not. If the School Board want to include ID (or astrology or voodoo for that matter) in the curriculum, that is fine. Just don't usurp accepted and valid science with confusing and contradictory dogma in the same class.

The fact that they are elected does not absolve them of their responsibilities to the the students to prepare them for the world, away from Dover. That is done by deferring to experts in the chosen field to set that curriculum. Failure to do so fails the students.

35 posted on 10/07/2005 7:01:19 AM PDT by Mr. Quarterpanel (I am not an actor, but I play one on TV)
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To: SmartCitizen
There's only one truth and it's apparent that you can't handle it.
36 posted on 10/07/2005 7:03:16 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: newsgatherer
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

An adopted slave of an Egyptian pharaoh with access to the royal library concocted a book of verses that combined plagiarized Sumerian and Babylonian (Iraqi) tablets with the oral traditions of a wandering tribe of bronze age goat herders and four thousand years later you want to force it into 21st century science class believing the masses are too stupid to see through the charlatan pseudo science called intelligent design. You'll see soon enough that you should have been happy with your freedom of religion and kept your fanatic superstitions out of courtrooms and science classes where you can't possibly win.

37 posted on 10/07/2005 7:05:30 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: SmartCitizen
"The UNIVERSITIES taught this. Who teaches at the university level? Hitler has "SCIENTISTS" who supported this crap - there is no denying it."

I suppose you could repeat this in an endless loop and it would become your truth, but in reality it will always remain false. These parents and community morons that taught this were no more scientists than the high priests of ID. ID is the same as phrenology, or whatever feeling head shapes is called.

38 posted on 10/07/2005 7:08:01 AM PDT by spunkets
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: spunkets

Read my lips: It was taught in the universities. Deal with it.


40 posted on 10/07/2005 7:18:03 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: PatrickHenry
Thanks, but I'm thinking maybe we should give this stuff a day off.

They got the ball on the fourth post and are running in the wrong direction. I'm inclined to let them score.

41 posted on 10/07/2005 7:21:39 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: SmartCitizen; Mr. Quarterpanel
" It's none of your freakin business what parents want to teach their kids."

You can teach them pretty much whatever you want in your own home. The public school though is a public institution. There the truth matters.

Science does not included the rejection of science that ID preaches. ID is not science, it is pure unadultered fabrication founded on erroneous constructs and claims. ID does not belong in the science class at all.

42 posted on 10/07/2005 7:24:24 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: Mr. Quarterpanel
ID is the Phrenology of the 21st century.

What an insult to Phrenology.

43 posted on 10/07/2005 7:26:01 AM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: SmartCitizen
"Read my lips: It was taught in the universities. Deal with it."

The endless loop...

44 posted on 10/07/2005 7:26:10 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: spunkets
The public school though is a public institution. There the truth matters.

didn't use to be that way - until the federal government started interfering where it doesn't constitutionally belong. Your support for big government control is perfectly in line with Stailin and Mao. You marxist evo-bots love oppression and suppression.

45 posted on 10/07/2005 7:27:15 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: SmartCitizen
Re:The public school though is a public institution. There the truth matters.

"didn't use to be that way - until the federal government started interfering where it doesn't constitutionally belong.

Tax money should not be spent teaching and advancing your religion, or any religion. The 14th Amend demands that a minority of taxpayers be rpotected against a majority of tyrants using tax money to promote and futher their religion. That is the Constituitonal justification for the feds interfering. It was to stop the abuse.

"Your support for big government control is perfectly in line with Stailin and Mao. You marxist evo-bots love oppression and suppression."

Whatever makes you feel good.

46 posted on 10/07/2005 7:39:28 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: spunkets
Tax money should not be spent teaching and advancing your religion, or any religion.

Or yours - philosophical naturalism and rationalism, which essentially equate to promoting atheism in schools - a clear violation of the Establishment Clause. You have the power of government behind you - but might doesn't make right. It's a violation of the foundational principle of self-government. Schools should reject federal money and support their own schools, then the govt has no say at all.

47 posted on 10/07/2005 7:44:30 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: spunkets
You can teach them pretty much whatever you want in your own home.

Why is it then that there is an ongoing assault on home-schooling (even though home schoolers consistently outperform public school morons by a wide margin)?

48 posted on 10/07/2005 7:46:09 AM PDT by SmartCitizen
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To: shuckmaster
HALF of all Americans either don't know or don't believe that living creatures evolved.

What can account for this?...either 1) ignorance due to apathy or poor education OR 2) disbelief due to understanding of the issue. Are there other explanations?

In a country where 65% of people think that creationism and evolution should be taught side by side, some boards inevitably agree,...

This really is the point - who should control the schools?...the courts or the parents/communities? Of course, if you take state money, you're subject to state regulation.

One solution: SEPARATION OF SCHOOL AND STATE.

49 posted on 10/07/2005 7:46:12 AM PDT by KMJames
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To: Mr. Quarterpanel; All
"Why don't we let Scientists decide what is taught in Science class?"

Which sort of scientists? The balanced ones like Copernicus and Galileo, who are in the minority, or the unbalanced ones or will always be in the majority - like Darwin:

"Origin of man now proved. -- Metaphysics must flourish. - He who understands baboon would do more toward Metaphysics than Locke." --- Darwin, Notebook M, August 16, 1838

"...The conflict was between Copernican science and Aristotelian science which had become Church tradition.

Galileo wrote: "I think in the first place that it is very pious to say and prudent to affirm that the Holy Bible can never speak untruth -- whenever its true meaning is understood." He cited Copernicus in the same vein: "He [Copernicus] did not ignore the Bible, but he knew very well that if his doctrine were proved, then it could not contradict the Scripture when they were rightly understood"

50 posted on 10/07/2005 7:56:03 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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