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Evolution and intelligent design Life is a cup of tea
Economist ^ | 10/6/05 | Economist

Posted on 10/07/2005 4:59:16 AM PDT by shuckmaster

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To: dread78645

Mine!


801 posted on 10/14/2005 10:22:48 AM PDT by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: dread78645

I didn't want that one anyway.


802 posted on 10/14/2005 10:26:38 AM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, retard, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: taxesareforever
This is what you posted:

"...That is the reason that people who think rationally usually reject God because the thought of a God who could accomplish so much is just not rational and therefore unbelievable...."

Since practioners of science must think rationally, it is your view, not mine, that scientists reject God. They may reject your view of God, since it defines them out, but they do not reject God.

803 posted on 10/14/2005 11:03:41 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: taxesareforever

"I don't consider rational thinking as a gift. It might be thought of as the Devil's play book."

I don't think you have to worry, God skipped you anyway.


804 posted on 10/14/2005 11:08:21 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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Just-when-I-thought-it-couldn't-get-any-more-bizarre PLACEMARKER


805 posted on 10/14/2005 11:26:40 AM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Art of Unix Programming by Raymond)
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To: jennyp
Not a unique position:

"But since the devil's bride, Reason, that pretty whore, comes in and thinks she's wise, and what she says, what she thinks, is from the Holy Spirit, who can help us, then? Not judges, not doctors, no king or emperor, because [reason] is the Devil's greatest whore."
Source: Martin Luther, 1483-1546.

806 posted on 10/14/2005 12:06:54 PM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, retard, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Niiiiiiiice.

Here are some more of Luther's (attributed) sayings regarding reason (from the same page):


807 posted on 10/14/2005 1:20:39 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Art of Unix Programming by Raymond)
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To: jennyp

Thank you for the post. I couldn't have said it better myself.


808 posted on 10/14/2005 2:57:32 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Government is running amuck)
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To: taxesareforever
I don't consider rational thinking as a gift. It might be thought of as the Devil's play book.

Yeah, what have math, physics, engineering, and medicine ever done for us anyway? Please tell me you're a troll.

809 posted on 10/14/2005 3:05:32 PM PDT by ThinkDifferent (I am a leaf on the wind)
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To: ThinkDifferent; taxesareforever
The rational mind and rational thinking can operate from a place of evil or not. Math, physics, engineering, and medicine might be used to evil ends, but those things in themselves are not evil.

To link this statement from taxesareforever with math, physics, engineering, and medicine is a false and faulty linkage.

Wolf
810 posted on 10/14/2005 3:45:48 PM PDT by RunningWolf (tag line limbo)
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To: RunningWolf

No problem, since words mean whatever you wish them to mean, and morality is whatever those in power say it is.


811 posted on 10/14/2005 3:51:43 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: js1138

I reject that


812 posted on 10/14/2005 4:00:27 PM PDT by RunningWolf (tag line limbo)
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To: taxesareforever
Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God

Thank you for the post. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Allahu Akbar!

813 posted on 10/14/2005 5:40:35 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Art of Unix Programming by Raymond)
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To: RunningWolf; taxesareforever
" To link this statement from taxesareforever with math, physics, engineering, and medicine is a false and faulty linkage."

In what way? They are all products of rational thinking. Taxesareforever has called rational thinking the devil's work. He has said,

""I don't consider rational thinking as a gift. It might be thought of as the Devil's play book."

Here are some more of his gems(not sure how much of this thread you have followed):

"That is the reason that people who think rationally usually reject God because the thought of a God who could accomplish so much is just not rational and therefore unbelievable."
(in other words, rational thinking leads to atheism--CG)

"I do not think that I am capable of making rational decisions on my own."

"Why is it not wrong in other countries? If there laws allow it, that is what makes it right."
(speaking of things like honor killings, genital mutilation, stoning of adulterers; expressing his moral relativism--CG)

"By the way, answer my question. Is slavery a moral issue? If you say it is where do you derive what is moral and what isn't?"

"Of course I consider abortion wrong. If the our government sanctioned slavery I would say it was wrong because it would be against our Constitution."
(Whatever a government says is OK--CG)

"What is right or wrong for one country is not necessarily right or wrong for another country. Just ask the people living in other countries."

""Like I said, the Bible doesn't support it nor does it condemn it, so who am I to say it is immoral."
(speaking of slavery--CG)

"I did not say slavery was moral just because the government allows it."
(admitting he thinks slavery IS moral--CG)

Saving the best for last,

"My position on slavery? I don't consider it is wrong to have slaves."


I don't think you want to be defending this one Running Wolf. Just think of what you would be defending.
814 posted on 10/14/2005 6:48:01 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: taxesareforever
I don't consider rational thinking as a gift. It might be thought of as the Devil's play book.

You certainly have a way with words! First the banned post #375, then your multiple defenses, then this.

815 posted on 10/14/2005 8:04:45 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: jennyp
Here are some more of Luther's (attributed) sayings regarding reason (from the same page):

Yup, this is a one-of-a-kind thread. Another I can't believe it! placemarker.

And there are probably those around here who agree with this stuff.

816 posted on 10/14/2005 8:17:06 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: jennyp
Here are some more of Luther's (attributed) sayings regarding reason (from the same page):

Yup, this is a one-of-a-kind thread. Another I can't believe it! placemarker.

And there are probably those around here who agree with this stuff.

817 posted on 10/14/2005 8:18:44 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Coyoteman

Sorry about the double post. I waited a minute and a half before I figured I hadn't hit the right button and hit 'er again. Sigh!


818 posted on 10/14/2005 8:20:16 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Coyoteman
And there are probably those around here who agree with this stuff.

Well, at least one.

819 posted on 10/14/2005 9:43:27 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Art of Unix Programming by Raymond)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Look you have just added a bunch of clipped text from perhaps 10 or more postings that had nothing to do with what I responded to.

And now you are suggesting I am defending something.

Well okay I went back and read the thread and your clipped out pieces, and your answers to them.

I disagree with your assessment of what taxesforever is saying. I understood it, and maybe you did too, or maybe you did not.

If you and the others on your side took it all in, you might give him a break. Of course that would be no fun in the gotcha ambush game that goes on in these threads. That BTW was one of the first things I noticed that passes for intelligent debate here, but Wolf can heist a leg too if he wants.

So I'll address this slavery issue. 1st of all its absurd, not recent, not practiced, has been decided, etc etc. But if you really want to make an issue of it, the subject of slavery should be at least split from the slavery in early civilization of agrarian warrior cultures (where the Bible talks about) as opposed to the slavery as practiced of say 1400 to 1900. I am surprised none of the educated evo guys ever made that distinction.

See why I would like to take your side more seriously but I cant? Thats just one place where my sarcasm comes from that I direct your way. You evo guys want to hold yourself out as some sort of intellectual superiors, and then I see all of this.. Whats up with that??

Like our debate. I said (in a nutshell) that evo cant stand on its own and as I see it it cant. There is evidence, but not for an evo conclusion. So then your response is to insist I am a creationist (even though I said I am not), and demand proof of the resurrection (which I never brought in you did). Whats up with that?

Wolf (looking askance) And then you think you have won some sort of victory?

Wolf

820 posted on 10/14/2005 10:54:01 PM PDT by RunningWolf (tag line limbo)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

I feel honored that a history of my comments has been kept. Now to get them archived. Does it really mean that I have struck a nerve?


821 posted on 10/14/2005 11:22:02 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Government is running amuck)
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To: Coyoteman

Consider me a product of our public educational system.


822 posted on 10/14/2005 11:23:29 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Government is running amuck)
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To: jennyp
And there are probably those around here who agree with this stuff. Well, at least one.

Who might that be? :)

823 posted on 10/14/2005 11:25:44 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Government is running amuck)
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To: RunningWolf; taxesareforever
" I disagree with your assessment of what taxesforever is saying. I understood it, and maybe you did too, or maybe you did not."

We gave him plenty of rope to hang himself, and he did. We didn't have to drag any of this out of him. We didn't have to misquote him out of context like creationists have to do with evolutionists.

Do you agree with him too? We have yet to see a creationist (like you) say they disagree with his pro-slavery, anti rational-thought sentiments. Do you think that reason is a gift from God or the Devil? Do you think that what is morally right or wrong in one country isn't morally right or wrong in another just because the laws are different? Do you think that slavery is not a moral issue? Is that what you wish to defend.

" So I'll address this slavery issue. 1st of all its absurd, not recent, not practiced, has been decided, etc etc."

So why does taxesareforever think it is still OK?

" See why I would like to take your side more seriously but I cant?"

Because like taxesareforever you believe that rational thought is a trick from the Devil? :)


"So then your response is to insist I am a creationist (even though I said I am not)..."

You are one, why are you denying it? Are you embarrassed? If you say you are in ID'er it is a variation on the same theme.

"...and demand proof of the resurrection (which I never brought in you did). Whats up with that?"

That was what I was talking about to the other poster in that thread when you butted in and made a comment. Sorry if you didn't realize what was being discussed. And I am STILL waiting for ANY positive physical evidence of the resurrection. If you don't know of any just say so.

" Wolf (looking askance) And then you think you have won some sort of victory?"

We have Wolfie, we have. Your tacit approval of his posts is all we could have wished for. It's says so much about you.
824 posted on 10/15/2005 5:25:03 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: taxesareforever

"I feel honored that a history of my comments has been kept. Now to get them archived. Does it really mean that I have struck a nerve?"

It means we can't believe that somebody would be so moronic as to support slavery and say that rational thought is the work of the Devil on a forum called the Free Republic. It means you have sent so many of us into tears of laughter as we fell off our chairs at the dumb things you said.

We couldn't create a better creationist caricature of we wanted. Thanks! :)


825 posted on 10/15/2005 5:28:28 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; wolfman; taxesareforever
We have Wolfie, we have. Your tacit approval of his posts is all we could have wished for. It's says so much about you.

When people feel comfortable rejecting modern biology because it runs counter to their literal belief in their holy book, then why should we be surprised that they find the laws and morals of that holy book likewise to their taste? The real surprise would be if a creationist could bring themselves to condemn slavery. One would have to ask how they could compartmentalise their beliefs so; using a holy book as a science and history text but not a morality and law text would be very strange behaviour. "Taxes" is the only creationist currently openly and honestly admitting to a consistent position on this issue. No other creationist will currently clearly state their views, because they know them to be unnacceptable in modern Western society. Several others have been brave enough to admit their pro-slavery views in the past however.

826 posted on 10/15/2005 7:35:03 AM PDT by Thatcherite (Feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
It means we can't believe that somebody would be so moronic as to support slavery and say that rational thought is the work of the Devil on a forum called the Free Republic. It means you have sent so many of us into tears of laughter as we fell off our chairs at the dumb things you said. We couldn't create a better creationist caricature of we wanted. Thanks! :)

And just as to the point it gave the other creationists an opportunity to clearly state their opposition to slavery and your viewpoints; an opportunity that not one creationist has accepted. This tells us so much. "Taxes" has many tacit supporters.

827 posted on 10/15/2005 7:37:47 AM PDT by Thatcherite (Feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Reason is the Devil's bride.
828 posted on 10/15/2005 8:14:43 AM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, retard, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: PatrickHenry

Now that's a Chris Lee movie I'd never even heard of.


829 posted on 10/15/2005 8:35:54 AM PDT by RightWingAtheist (Free the Crevo Three!)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; taxesareforever
HHA HA HA.. LOL..!! HA HA HAH LMAO!! CarolinaGuitarman at his best.

taxes was misquoted all over the place. You have clipped text from at least 7 posters to him over the space of 500 posts. Plenty of people 'butted in' as you say.

You say many things, most of them about as absurd as these declarations and questions from you. You and your budds are are making a very poor showing for scientists in the case for evolution.

You want me to reject slavery? Well its your goofy and stupid game CarolinaGuitarman, LMAO LOL! But Wolf will play it with you as kitten momentarily distracted, then there is no more time for you about this.

Wolf now rejects slavery, and adds that to the list of rejected things as demanded by the goofball cultists of evo-cosmo cosmo-evo cult of the flying spaghetti monster.

This stands

Truth lives, lies evaporate & go away. Let go of your cult of cosmology & evolution, there is no truth there.

The cosmo evo cult lies to you with their conclusions, their inferences, their attacks.

830 posted on 10/15/2005 9:27:18 AM PDT by RunningWolf (tag line limbo)
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To: RunningWolf
" taxes was misquoted all over the place."

Where? Be specific.

"You have clipped text from at least 7 posters to him over the space of 500 posts."

They were all his quotes.

"Wolf now rejects slavery, and adds that to the list of rejected things as demanded by the goofball cultists of evo-cosmo cosmo-evo cult of the flying spaghetti monster."

Taxesareforever disagrees with you. He thinks there is nothing wrong with slavery. And we don't demand it, morality does.

"You say many things, most of them about as absurd as these declarations and questions from you. You and your budds are are making a very poor showing for scientists in the case for evolution."

You are making a pathetic case for Creationism. (Which is what you believe.)

"HHA HA HA.. LOL..!! HA HA HAH LMAO!!"

Time to up your meds... or maybe you need to see the vet again.
831 posted on 10/15/2005 9:39:02 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Your welcome. Your comments, though, did not sound like they were being made while laughing.


832 posted on 10/15/2005 12:22:17 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Government is running amuck)
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To: taxesareforever

"Your welcome. Your comments, though, did not sound like they were being made while laughing."

Oh, but they were. :)


833 posted on 10/15/2005 12:53:07 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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Placemarker
834 posted on 10/15/2005 6:52:07 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (No response to trolls, retards, or lunatics.)
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To: Coyoteman
Keep this thread alive--it's too good to be forgotten

===> Placemarker <===
835 posted on 10/17/2005 7:18:27 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: PatrickHenry

"But since the devil's bride, Reason, that pretty whore, comes in and thinks she's wise, and what she says, what she thinks, is from the Holy Spirit, who can help us, then? Not judges, not doctors, no king or emperor, because [reason] is the Devil's greatest whore."
Source: Martin Luther, 1483-1546."

I ran across this posting of yours while tracking down another item. CS Lewis would have taken Luther to task with this one. In his work, "Pilgrims Regress" he wrote of Reason as a Virgin, unsullied by bias, morality. She stated(she was given feminine character in the book) that she forces the seakers of knowledge to be totally honest with themselves when considering a course of thought or action.
No true decisions could simply be decided by reason alone, to make a decision and attribute it to reason WAS TO MAKE A WHORE OF HER(and she "could not sully" herself with the notion of decision). She did give advice to the protagonist to seek advice fro "her cousins Faith, Hope, and Joy", for he sought advice on matters she could not give answers to and that she knew of others who had found their answers "with them"!

Interestingly enough, the book of Provebs speaks of Wisdom,"having her 7 pillars", who goes out into the Byways saying who-ever is thirsty amd craves wisdom let them come..." Wisdom is mentioned in the feminine here as well.



836 posted on 12/06/2005 10:56:14 AM PST by mdmathis6 (Proof against evolution:"Man is the only creature that blushes, or needs to" M.Twain)
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To: mdmathis6



Access Research Network
Phillip Johnson Archives





Darwinists Squirm Under Spotlight
Interview with Phillip E. Johnson




This article is reprinted from an interview with Citizen Magazine, January 1992.

Phillip Johnson has been a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley for more than 20 years. As an academic lawyer, one of Johnson's specialties is "analyzing the logic of arguments and identifying the assumptions that lie behind those arguments." A few years ago he began to suspect that Darwinism, far from being an objective fact, was little more than a philosophical position dressed up as science--and poor science at that. Wanting to see whether his initial impression was correct, Johnson decided to take a closer look at the arguments, evidence and assumptions underlying contemporary Darwinism. The result of his investigation is Darwin on Trial, a controversial new book that challenges not only Darwinism but the philosophical mindset that sustains it.

When did you first become aware that Darwinism was in trouble as a scientific theory?

I had been vaguely aware that there were problems, but I'd never had any intention of taking up the subject seriously or in detail until the 1987-88 academic year, when I was a visiting professor in London. Every day on the way to my office I happened to go by a large bookstore devoted to science. I picked up one book after another and became increasingly fascinated with the obvious difficulties in the Darwinist case--difficulties that were being evaded by tricky rhetoric and emphatic repetition. I then began delving into the professional literature, especially in scientific journals such as Nature and Science. At every step, what I found was a failure of the evidence to be in accord with the theory.

What was it that initially made you suspect that Darwinism was more philosophy than hard science?

It was the way my scientific colleagues responded when I asked the hard questions. Instead of taking the intellectual questions seriously and responding to them, they would answer with all sorts of evasions and vague language, making it impossible to discuss the real objections to Darwinism. This is the way people talk when they're trying very hard not to understand something.

Another tip-off was the sharp contrast I noticed between the extremely dogmatic tone that Darwinists use when addressing the general public and the occasional frank acknowledgments, in scientific circles, of serious problems with the theory. For example, I would read Stephen Jay Gould telling the scientific world that Darwinism was effectively dead as a theory. And then in the popular literature, I would read Gould and other scientific writers saying that Darwinism was fundamentally healthy, and that scientists had the remaining problems well under control. There was a contradiction here, and it looked as though there was an effort to keep the outside world from becoming aware of the serious intellectual difficulties.

What are some of the intellectual difficulties? Can you give an example?

The most important is the fossil problem, because this is a direct record of the history of life on earth. If Darwinism were true, you would expect the fossil evidence to contain many examples of Darwinian evolution. You would expect to see fossils that really couldn't be understood except as transitions between one kind of organism and another. You would also expect to see some of the common ancestors that gave birth to different groups like fish and reptiles. You wouldn't expect to find them in every case, of course. It's perfectly reasonable to say that a great deal of the fossil evidence has been lost. But you would continually be finding examples of things that fit well with the theory.

In reality, the fossil record is something that Darwinists have had to explain away, because what it shows is the sudden appearance of organisms that exhibit no trace of step-by-step development from earlier forms. And it shows that once these organisms exist, they remain fundamentally unchanged, despite the passage of millions of years-and despite climatic and environmental changes that should have produced enormous Darwinian evolution if the theory were true. In short, if evolution is the gradual, step-by-step transformation of one kind of thing into another, the outstanding feature of the fossil record is the absence of evidence for evolution.

But isn't it possible, as many Darwinists say, that the fossil evidence is just too scanty to show evidence of Darwinian evolution?

The question is whether or not Darwinism is a scientific theory that can be tested with scientific evidence. If you assume that the theory is true, you can deal with conflicting evidence by saying that the evidence has disappeared. But then the question arises, how do you know it's true if it isn't recorded in the fossils? Where is the proof? It's not in genetics. And it's not in the molecular evidence, which shows similarities between organisms but doesn't tell you how those similarities came about. So the proof isn't anywhere, and it's illegitimate to approach the fossil record with the conclusive assumption that the theory is true so that you can read into the fossil record whatever you need to support the theory.

If Darwinism has been so thoroughly disconfirmed, why do so many scientists say it's a fact?

There are several factors that explain this. One is that Darwinism is fundamentally a religious position, not a scientific position. The project of Darwinism is to explain the world and all its life forms in a way that excludes any role for a creator. And that project is sacred to the scientific naturalist-to the person who denies that God can in any way influence natural events.

It's also an unfortunate fact in the history of science that scientists will stick to a theory which is untrue until they get an acceptable alternative theory-which to a Darwinist means a strictly naturalistic theory. So for them, the question is not whether Darwinism is true. The question is whether there is a better theory that's philosophically acceptable. Any suggestion that Darwinism is false, and that we should admit our ignorance about the origin of complex life-forms, is simply unacceptable. In their eyes, Darwinism is the best naturalistic theory, and therefore effectively true. The argument that it's false can't even be heard.

Surely there are some skeptics in the scientific world. What of them?

Well, there are several, and we can see what happened to them. You have paleontologist Colin Patterson, who's quoted in my first chapter. He made a very bold statement, received a lot of vicious criticism, and then pulled back. This is a typical pattern.

Another pattern is that of Stephen Jay Gould, who said that Darwinism is effectively dead as a general theory-and then realized that he had given a powerful weapon to the creationists, whose existence cannot be tolerated. So now Gould says that he's really a good Darwinist, and that all he really meant was that Darwinism could be improved by developing a larger theory that included Darwinism. What we have here is politics, not science. Darwinism is politically correct for the scientific community, because it enables them to fight off any rivals for cultural authority.

Darwinists often accuse creationists of intolerance. But you're suggesting that the Darwinists are intolerant?

If you want to know what Darwinist science is really like, read what the Darwinists say about the creationists, because those things-regardless of whether they're true about the creationists-are true about the Darwinists. I've found that people often say things about their enemies that are true of themselves. And I think Darwinist science has many of the defects that the Darwinists are so indignant about when they describe the creationists.

Across the country, there has been a growing trend toward teaching evolution as a fact-especially in California, your own state. What does this say about science education in America?

This is an attempt to establish a religious position as orthodox throughout the educational establishment, and thus throughout the society. It's gone very far. The position is what I call "scientific naturalism." The scientific organizations, for example, tell us that if we wish to maintain our country's economic status and cope with environmental problems, we must give everyone a scientific outlook. But the "scientific outlook" they have in mind is one which, by definition, excludes God from any role in the world, from the Big Bang to the present. So this is fundamentally a religious position-a fundamentalist position, if you like--and it's being taught in the schools as a fact when it isn't even a good theory.

Why should Christians be concerned about a scientific theory? Why does it matter?

Well, not only Christians should care about it. Everyone should. It is religion in the name of science, and that means that it is misleading people about both religion and science.

Copyright © 1997 Phillip E. Johnson. All rights reserved. International copyright secured.
File Date:2.22.97





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837 posted on 12/28/2005 3:08:14 AM PST by 13Sisters76
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